The gospel of free grace declares Eternal Salvation,
WITHOUT any human activity.
WITHOUT any human activity.
If you wish to comment, please go to this link:
These two verses of the Holy Scriptures are probably the most tortured and abused passages of the Bible. Even the Calvinistic folks messed it up big time!
A few obvious facts about the passage:
1. The object acted upon by the divine activities are co-extensive throughout, an EXACTLY SAME number and people are involved in each activity of God, not one more and not one less, that is, every action applies to EVERY elect, with exception. That's pretty obvious... "whom he did... he also... whom he did... he also..."
2. The divine activities here - foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification and glorification - are all the sole activities of God. All these activities are by the free and sovereign grace of God, i.e. not conditioned upon anything in, by or of the objects. Those acted upon in these divine activities are completely passive, absolutely incapable of helping or even cooperating. In fact they, by nature, were actively in ENMITY and REBELLION against God.
3. Those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are ALL EQUALLY foreknown, predestinated, called, justified, and glorified - no one more, and no one less. Every free grace divine action applies to ABSOLUTELY EVERY ELECT, in absolutely equal and same extent. No exception. The activities here deal with, and secure ETERNAL salvation for the elect.
4. The divine activities stated here are all that are necessary for the ETERNAL salvation of every elect, without exception. There is no room to place other activities into the five-link chain. The five-link chain is complete and DOES NOT NEED other activities of God; and it DOES NOT PERMIT any activities of man.
Why is there no mention of regeneration, adoption, sanctification, etc., etc.?
Why aren't there any gospel preaching, faith and repentance?
Why? Do you know? If you don't, why not ask?
5. This passage says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, ZILCH about all those needful activities that involve human instrumentality (means) and activities that are needful for the TEMPORAL salvation of God's children already made fit for eternal glory. If you imagine that any such activities are necessary for eternal salvation, then you have prostituted the pure gospel of grace, deny true monergism, and end up with synergistic view of salvation - which is so common even among many Calvinists!
When this passage is properly understood, then eternal salvation by God's free grace is adequately appreciated.
I know you may have some objections. I'm ready for them. If you can stick to the subject, comment. If not, don't!
Sing F Lau
There is the ETERNAL salvation which God in Jesus Christ has completely and perfectly work out for His people, and applies to each elect by His Spirit, perfectly fitting each for eternal glory... no human instrumentality is involved the eternal salvation. God alone purposed it, Christ alone accomplished it, and the Spirit alone applies it.
- This is the true context/sphere of 'divine sovereignty' in salvation.
There is the TEMPORAL salvation which God's children (those already bestowed with eternal salvation by God's free grace) have to work out for themselves with fear and trembling for their well being and usefulness in this present life.
The gospel ministry, administered through human instrumentality, is the divinely ordained means for this specific purpose of saints working out their own salvation:
"12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2.
- This is the true context/sphere of 'human responsibility' in salvation. God's children are responsible to work out their own salvation through obedience to the Father's will.
The measure to which men cannot distinguish eternal salvation from temporal salvation, is the same measure to which they are messed up in their understanding of salvation by grace alone! They give lip service to salvation by grace alone but in reality are all work-based salvation to different degree... EVEN the Calvinists!
June 22 at 5:07pm ·
Sing F Lau
1. The object acted upon by the divine activities are co-extensive throughout, an EXACTLY SAME number and people are involved in each activity of God, not one more and not one less, that is, every action applies to EVERY elect, with exception.
================
Necessary implications:
1. The call is the effectual call because ONLY IN EFFECTUAL CALL is every elect called. This is God calling an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and eternal salvation.
There is absolutely no gospel call here because there are God's children (regenerated elect) that are incapable of being called by the gospel, either because of inability or not reached by the gospel call.
Gospel call has to do with temporal salvation of God's children. And there are God's children who are not called by he gospel.
However because the Calvinists being ignorant of the distinction between ETERNAL salvation and TEMPORAL salvation, insist that the gospel call is necessary for one's eternal salvation!
2. The justification here is the vital justification by God's free grace because this aspect of justification is true of every elect. This is God's act of justifying the condemned by applying the righteousness of Christ to him personally and forgiving him his sins... when he is utterly incapable of believing.
There is no justification by man's act of believing here because there are God's children who are INCAPABLE of believing... either because of their inability or not called by the gospel.
However because the Calvinists being ignorant of the distinct aspects of justification, confuse the VITAL justification by the free grace of God as the EXPERIENTIAL justification by faith in Christ.
June 27 at 12:19am ·
Sing F Lau
Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
===============
Question: why nothing said about regeneration, sanctification, gospel preaching, hearing, faith and repentance, etc, etc... the MANY things that the Calvinists and Arminians alike insist must be added to the five-link chain?
June 27 at 12:21am ·
Nick
Here's what I came up with on this passage.
http://www.migliacci.com/articles/Rom.8.29-30.swf
June 27 at 3:45am ·
Dellis
Sing Question: why nothing said about regeneration, sanctification, gospel preaching, hearing, faith and repentance, etc, etc... the MANY things that the Calvinists and Arminians alike insist must be added to the five-link chain? All are included but still accomplished by God. Regeneration makes it possible for the rest to happen, but still, we are fitted and framed together. The term "we must do these things" does not exist when it comes to eternal salvation, but temporal salvation is something I've never heard of except in the arminian camp where Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly puts a reinstatement of a temproaral salvation to be non existant meaning that if you lose it it is impossible to get it back, If your temporal salvation refers to being able to lose ones salvation.I also wasnt aware that the arminian had a five-link chain. explain?
June 27 at 8:57am ·
Sing F Lau
Dellis, temporal salvation is the salvation that those whom God has freely bestowed eternal salvation have to work out with fear and trembling through their obedience to the father's will.
Temporal salvation has to do with the well being of God's children while here on earth. Eternal salvation has to do with our being as God's children and our fitness and place in heaven with God.
Here is an example of temporal salvation that God's childrem must labor for themselves...
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
The salvation spoken of here has nothing to do with the eternal salvation that Christ ALONE has secured, and freely applied to each elect, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory.
June 27 at 9:17am ·
Dellis
Sing Like John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
June 27 at 1:41pm ·
Sing F Lau
Yes, he that follows Christ does so because ETERNAL SALVATION has been freely and sovereignly bestowed upon him... and following Christ will save him from darkness... following Christ a child of God shall have the light of life... his following Christ will secure him temporal salvation... ensures his well being as God's child!
Any salvation that requires the activities of man has to do with TEMPORAL SALVATION.
June 27 at 1:47pm ·
Dellis
But I'm not supposed to believe that am I? I am a calvinist :)June 27 at 1:55pm ·
Nick
I don’t think we can ever presume upon God and state that we have perfect knowledge about our salvation such that we know infallibly that we have been given this “eternal salvation,” as Sing calls it. Paul was humble enough to recognize that if he didn’t persevere, he would prove himself to be “disqualified,” which means lost. (The same word he uses in 1 Cor. 9:27 he uses in 2 Cor. 13:5). And again in Romans 11:21, he puts the fear of God in us lest we become so “sure of ourselves.” “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” That’s the salvation that takes you to heaven. What does Sing base his knowledge on that he has been given “eternal salvation?” That he prayed the sinner’s prayer? Surely not!
Therefore, there is no distinction between a so-called “eternal salvation” and a “temporal salvation.” The salvation we are commanded to “work out with fear and trembling” is the same salvation that will get us to heaven (if we do indeed work it out). Sanctification is part and parcel of being saved. No holiness, no heaven (Heb. 12:14). Sanctification is a prerequisite to going to heaven. If a person does not “keep themselves in the love of God” (Jude 1:21), then they would prove that God never gave them salvation—call it eternal or temporal if you want; there’s only one salvation.
I’m a Calvinist and I approve this message. :)
June 27 at 2:06pm ·
Dellis
Nick@ I know where you are coming from but Sing F Lau does makes sense,though what he teaches is true, the wording of is different. EG. it is not our relationship that makes us christians, it is our fellowship. However, Sing used the words sonship and discipleship in the same respect. Sanctification has more to do with God working in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Chastening is the way God gets us to the point of sanctification while here on earth, but if you are regenerate then God has already eternally sanctified you. BTW, calvinist believe OSAS.
Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The above scripture pertain to God's eternal purpose for us. 1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Paul never worried about the destiny of his soul,but he was concerned that his lifestyle in which others in the world saw him were a concern eg.He didnt want to appear to be a hypocrit by living a life that didnt reflect the hope within him.It was for that, that he said to work out with fear and trembling. He for sure knew that God had set him apart(sanctified) him for the purpose of being an apostle to the gentiles.
June 27 at 7:42pm ·
Sing F Lau
Nick, you are indeed a Calvinist, a typical synergist in the doctrine of salvation.
You forgot what Paul said here:
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That's eternal salvation secure for His people... nothing can undo it... not even Satan himself.
Paul is realistic about the real possibility of himself making a shipwreck of his faith... that's concerning his temporal salvation, his well being as God's child.
June 27 at 10:11pm ·
Nick
Yes, I believe the Gospel is “foolishness” to the unbeliever (1 Cor. 1:18; 2:14) and the “aroma of death” to him (2 Cor. 2:16). But that presupposes that he has heard it, does it not? He hears it, it’s foolish to him, and then at the appointed time, God regenerates him (if he’s elect) and it is no longer foolishness to him.
I can see where our views part ways. It’s this idea of a “temporal salvation” versus “eternal salvation.” You mentioned Romans 8:38-39 and how absolutely nothing is able to separate us [you understand that to be those who have been granted eternal salvation] from the love of God. But I would point out that that promise is true only for those who are “in Christ.” So what I stated earlier was that none of us know infallibly that we are in Christ, until we are on our dying bed and can say like Paul that we have fought the good fight. But as long as we’ve got lots of years ahead of us, there is still that possibility that we might make shipwreck of our faith, and prove that God never did, after all, grant us [eternal] salvation. We deceived ourselves in thinking that He did. We would be like that soil which at first received the Word with gladness, but later fell away because of tough times. It’s true that IF God grants [eternal] salvation, that it can never be taken away. That is a blessed promise that we can cling to if we can see evidence of sanctification in our life. But it’s equally true that there are many religious people who have deceived themselves in thinking they have that [eternal] salvation, when in reality they were lost along (Mt. 7:23). They don’t lose any salvation; they simply never had one.
June 27 at 11:11pm ·
Sing F Lau
Nick, then I conclude that your eternal salvation finally depends on your perseverance to the end! I hope you make it. See, somehow human works must always sneak in to play a role in a man's eternal salvation!
I'm sorry you don't think Christ's work has made eternal salvation certain and assured enough for you, that you need to add a CONDITION to eternal salvation. I just hope you meet it!
June 28 at 12:23am
Nick
Christ's work does guarantee me heaven, IF it was for me He died! How do I know that? By looking at God's work of sanctifying me, because God sanctifies all whom He saves. So far, I have every reason to believe I will make it. I press on toward the goal.... I am what I am by the grace of God.What proof do you have that you have eternal salvation? Because you prayed a sinner's prayer?
June 28 at 12:36am
Nick
(I'm glad we're able to finally see where our theologies differ.) I'm sure you are too. :)
June 28 at 12:36am
Sing F Lau
Yes, finally.
Yours is: grace PLUS conditions...
Mine is: grace ALONE.
Yours: no hope for such as Lot, Saul, Solomon... since they did not persevere to the end, they were never saved by God.
Mine: they are as eternally saved as every elect, even though they messed up their well-being big time on earth.
See the difference. I hope you meet the conditions you have set for yourself.
June 28 at 8:15am ·
Nick
But how can you prove that Lot, Saul, Solomon, or anyone else has been "eternally saved", if not by their life (or what the Scriptures say about them, such as putting them in Hebrews 11, etc.)?
Also, the way people were saved before the Incarnation is the same way people are saved today: believing on Christ. Those in the Old Testament looked foward to Christ, today, we look back. Granted, we have more revelation than they did, but still, everyone is saved by looking to Christ. Genesis 3:15 is the "proto-good news". Galatians 3:8 - "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, PREACHED THE GOSPEL TO ABRAHAM beforehand, saying, 'In you all the nations shall be blessed.'" So anybody who didn't believe on Christ went to hell.
You still haven't answered whether it's possible for a regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no. I have been clear with you, why won't you extend the same courtesy? Don't expect your Scriptures to have the same impact on me as they do you, because I don't come with the same presuppositions as you do. So just answer yes or no: Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell?
June 28 at 9:10am ·
Dellis
Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell? That's a kind of crazy question since by being regenerate automatically makes you a spiritual being and makes you cease to be a natural man.
I have no presuppositions since all I know is from what Gods word has taught me,well with the help of the comforter God gave me. If you think about it, those who spoke to God in the OT still had faith though they heard the audible voice of God, saw angels and prophesied according to visions. In the New testament times, faith is in things not seen. So how is it that we are saved by the same faith as out father Abraham? As far as us hearing the gospel, think of it as one man hearing without the understanding and the other hearing with it. Jesus said" all that the Father giveth me shall come to me" so that makes your question about a regenerate athiest impossible. That should pretty much sum up the rest of the questions you posed. I feel I have been clear enough for a seemingly intelligent man as yourself to understand. If not, I ask, Are you a brother in Christ?
June 28 at 10:21am ·
Sing F Lau
Nick@ Also, the way people were saved before the Incarnation is the same way people are saved today: believing on Christ.
You are COMPLETELY WRONG on one point: Yes, the way people were SAVED by God is the same way people are saved today... there is only one way of salvation... and it is not by believing in Jesus Christ.
You most certainly believe in salvation by works... because believing in Jesus Christ is a work that God expects His children to work.
Here is the proof: John 6
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
IT IS by God effectually calling them out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation based on the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Believing is an EVIDENCE that a man has been SAVED by God, by His free grace. Believing DOES NOT SAVE anyone. Believing evidences the ETERNAL SALVATION already freely bestowed. ONLY the SAVED by God can ever believe.
If eternal salvation is by believing in Jesus Christ, then MANY elect will go to the lake of fire, since many are either INCAPABLE of believing, or have no opportunity to believe because the gospel call to believe did not get to them.
June 28 at 11:53am
Sing F Lau
Nick @ "You still haven't answered whether it's possible for a regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no."
I will answer your WEIRD Q with a question: Can a child of God go to the lake of fire? Am I asking the same thing? If I am, then the answer is NO NO NO. Regeneration guarantees ETERNAL GLORY - without anything extra or condition on man's part. That's grace, pure unadulterated and uncontaminated grace.
But let me entertain your question: Is it possible for a regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no.
Jesus warn his disciples (apostles):
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Is the warning of the Lord the the APOSTLES a vain warning? Isn't the warning that it is a REAL danger to the disciples...
And Nick, is hell and the late of fire the same in your understanding?
June 28 at 11:01am
Sing F Lau
Nick@ Therefore, there is no distinction between a so-called “eternal salvation” and a “temporal salvation.” The salvation we are commanded to “work out with fear and trembling” is the same salvation that will get us to heaven (if we do indeed work it out).
============
In this you are most deluded and confused. You have MIXED eternal salvation by Christ's work. You have just DENIED the completeness and the perfection of Christ's work. You require Christ work to be completed by yours! And you still blah blah blah salvation by grace ALONE. No, you should be honest and say 'salvation is by grace PLUS my work.'
Christ's work ALONE secured your eternal salvation. It is based upon the finished work of Christ that God bestowed salvation to a dead condemned sinner.
Your work of obeying God will save you from 'hell' on earth, and bring you temporal blessings - blessings that pertains to/in this life.
June 28 at 11:11am
Nick
I still do not know what you believe. I'm getting closer, but it's like pulling teeth out of you. Why beat around the bush? Are you saying a regenerate person can remain an atheist all their life and still go to heaven? Do you believe that God will ENSURE that the regenerate all believe the Gospel at some point?
June 28 at 11:15am
Nick
Are you seperating regeneration from sanctification, saying that it's possible to be regenerated but not sanctified?
June 28 at 11:17am ·
Sing F Lau
Nick@ Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell?
=======
Have you read this:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.
Every regenerate KNOWS and WORSHIP God... even though he has never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Look at Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia... all those devout Jews CONVERTED on the day of Pentecost.
The gospel informs and instruct him about his eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace in Jesus Christ.
Hearing and believing the gospel SAVES and sets them free from superstition and lies and errors... teaches them to live soberly, godly and righteously... thus saving himself from ungodliness and worldly lusts in THIS PRESENT LIFE. That's temporal salvation - i.e. salvation that pertains to THIS PRESENT LIFE.
ETERNAL SALVATION by Christ work of redemption has ETERNITY in view... saves from eternal condemnation.
June 28 at 11:59am
Sing F Lau
Nick, just remember this:
Rightly dividing the word of truth is the ESSENCE of sound theology.
Biblical distinction between ETERNAL salvation by free grace alone, and TEMPORAL salvation through the obedience of God's children IS THE ESSENCE of sound theology.
Failure to make this biblical distinction will leave in the cesspool of confusion and contradictions and inconsistencies. Been there for 20 years... and it is joy and delight to be out of it for 10 years now.
May our Lord set you free to see the glorious truth! Amen.
June 28 at 11:23am
Sing F Lau
Nick @ I still do not know what you believe. I'm getting closer, but it's like pulling teeth out of you. Why beat around the bush? Are you saying a regenerate person can remain an atheist all their life and still go to heaven? Do you believe that God will ENSURE that the regenerate all believe the Gospel at some point?
==============
Q1 - I don't ever beat around the bush. I am a slash-and-burn type of man
Q2 - answered already. Read it.
Q3 - answered too, but you didn't read. Shame!
June 28 at 11:56am
Pj
"And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish." Matthew 8:25
-----------------
Is the salvation under consideration in the context of this verse eternal or temporal?
Is the perishing under consideration herein eternal or temporal?
Take heed unto the doctrine, and save thyself and them that hear thee!
June 28 at 11:31am
Sing F Lau
Nick @ Are you seperating regeneration from sanctification, saying that it's possible to be regenerated but not sanctified?
========
Which sanctification are you talking about - definitive sanctification or practical sanctification?
At regeneration, an elect is definitively set apart from sin and death to that of grace and salvation. This sanctification is once for all, non repeatable, need no improvement. Once set apart from sin and death to grace and eternal salvation, FOREVER set apart to grace and salvation. This definitive sanctification is WITHOUT human means - God does it ALL by Himself.
Understand?
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Calvinists like you have the audacity to ADD to this finished work by Christ... that without practical sanctification a man goes to hell! How much practical sanctification is needed to qualify for eternal glory - can you tell us? And just how does a man know he meets the requirement?
I know what's in your mind - it is practical sanctification that you are concerned with.
Practical sanctification is accomplished through the means of the gospel ministry in the context of the NT local church. Some children of God enjoy this means to a greater degree, others less, and still others NONE. Whatever amount they enjoy, they are all God's children, definitively sanctified, destined for eternal glory!!!
June 28 at 11:46am
Pj
What of the brother's question concerning an atheist?
June 28 at 12:02pm
Sing F Lau
Pj, here it is, at the end of the paragraph.
======
"You still haven't answered whether it's possible for a regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no. I have been clear with you, why won't you extend the same courtesy? Don't expect your Scriptures to have the same impact on me as they do you, because I don't come with the same presuppositions as you do. So just answer yes or no: Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell?"
----------------
I wonder what provoked him to ask such WEIRD question?
May be Nick might like to tell us!
June 28 at 12:14pm
Pj
I'm still studying about hell and the separate state of the soul, so perhaps he may be able to tell us more!
June 28 at 12:19pm
Sing F Lau
No, Nick is far from that issue... 'hell' is just 'hell' to him - the eternal state.
June 28 at 12:29pm
Nick
Sing, why do you call my question weird? You yourself said some regenerate people are never (temporaly) sanctified. Thus, they can be a (temporal) atheist, and still be regenerate and go to heaven. By making this man-made disconnection between regeneration and necessary (temporal) sanctification, you have people going to heaven who lived like the devil. Do I understand your view right? I certainly don't want to misrepresent you.
June 29 at 3:44am
Nick
My view, as you probably already know, is that God not only ensures the regeneration of His elect, but He also ensures their sanctification (which you call "temporal sanctification"). And in that way, He ensures they will go to heaven, because no holiness, no heaven. How can a sinner be holy? Only by the working of God in his life.
You may say I believe in a works-based salvation, but that is not accurate; I believe in a salvation based on God's work, and one of His works is His sanctifying work. Yes, I believe sanctification is synergistic (although my work depends on the monergistic initiative of God), but what makes this so different from the Arminian is this: I believe regeneration is wholly monergistic, whereas the Arminian believes in prevenient grace, making the dead man able to choose God. I do not believe dead men can choose God. But once a person has been given life, by all means, they are then made able to cooperate with the Spirit in sanctification. There is a difference between a dead man's abilities, and a living person's abilities.
June 29 at 3:51am
Sing F Lau
Nick, I call your question weird because it is like asking, "Do God's children end up in the lake of fire?"
It is like asking, "Do my children have immortal soul? Do they need to live well in order to have immortal soul?"
Do God's children need to meet some condition in order to get into heaven?
Do you ever ask question like that?
June 29 at 8:35am
Sing F Lau
Nick @ You yourself said some regenerate people are never (temporaly) sanctified. Thus, they can be a (temporal) atheist, and still be regenerate and go to heaven. By making this man-made disconnection between regeneration and necessary (temporal) sanctification, you have people going to heaven who lived like the devil.
=========
In discussion, you must guard yourself from putting words into my mouth.
The idea that a regenerate, a child of God can be an atheist is entirely your straw man... and you SHOULD BE ASHAMED of yourself for saying that though I have burned your straw man many times over.
A child of God believes God and fears and reverence Him, even though he may not have any knowledge of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ yet. But you will call a man who has not heard of the gospel as atheist. Was Cornelius an atheist before Apostle brought to gospel to him?
A regenerate has eternal life, and is perfectly fitted for eternal glory... nothing more is needed.
June 29 at 8:37am
Sing F Lau
Nick @ "By making this man-made disconnection between regeneration and necessary (temporal) sanctification, you have people going to heaven who lived like the devil."
===========
"You have people going to heaven who lived like hell' is another cheap straw man - that's your imagination. I didn't say anything like that.
Because you CANNOT accept the idea that there are God's children who do not hear the gospel, you conclude that there are God's children who live like the devil and go to heaven - that's tooooooo puerile to even requires a rebuttal! The straw man does not warrant wasting a stick of precious match.
It is a biblical fact that there are God's children who have no ABILITY to hear and believe the gospel, and also those who have no OPPORTUNITY to hear and believe the gospel.
The Scriptures itself makes the NEEDFUL distinction, but you want to join them together and end up with all sorts of contradiction - i.e. salvation by grace PLUS works.
You join the CAUSE and the effects together.
A man like you rave and rant and foam whole day long 'salvation is by grace alone' from one side of your mouth, and then scream from the other side, "salvation by grace is complement/completed by works."
June 29 at 9:06am
Nick
I've created a Forum where you can clearly explain your position, here:
http://www.migliacci.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=109
What Saith The Scriptures :: View Forum - "Eternal Salvation" & "Temporal Salvation"
www.migliacci.com
June 29 at 8:46am
Sing F Lau
There are many useful articles on the subject. Go and read them and understand them before you start discussing.
In a nutshell:
The saving activities of God secured ETERNAL salvation for His people.
The responding activities of God's children (having been bestowed eternal salvation by God's free grace) secured temporal salvation for this temporal life on earth.
It is that simple and easy.
Heard this saying before? Think about it.
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo Tolstoy –
Thanks for the conversation... I'm thoroughly acquainted with your position... was there for 20 years.
June 29 at 9:04am
Dellis
It makes sense that you cant teach anything to anyone who already knows it all.
June 29 at 10:23am
Nick
I like that quote by Tolstoy.
Why do you suppose God has not secured temporal salvation for all for whom He secures eternal salvation? Doesn't God care about both equally?
June 29 at 12:53pm
Sing F Lau
Nick @ "Why do you suppose God has not secured temporal salvation for all for whom He secures eternal salvation? Doesn't God care about both equally?
==========
HARD Scriptural FACTS!
HARD Scriptural FACTS!
I don't supposed anything.
It is you who suppose a whole lots of things.
Nick, supposing God cared about both EQUALLY, then every elect would be equally saved with eternal salvation, and ALSO equally saved with temporal salvation. The former is true, the latter is a obvious fable!
It is a true that every elect is equally saved with eternal salvation, because their salvation is BASED upon the same basis (Christ's righteousness), and the same manner (God's free grace) and the same means (regeneration by the Holy Spirit). This is the sole work of the Triune God alone.
It just a PLAIN LIE that says temporal salvation is equally true for every child of God for the simple reason that temporal salvation is CONDITIONED upon many human factors... which directly affect the degree to which temporal salvation is attained and experienced by a child of God.
If God divinely ENSURES temporal salvation to each of His children, them EVERY ONE of them will enjoy the same degree of temporal salvation, otherwise God's work of ensuring it is just a SHAM and a FICTION!
If God ENSURES temporal salvation, then everyone will know AS LITTLE or as MUCH of the gospel of free grace as you do!!! [no typing mistake!].
June 29 at 2:16pm
Nick
You assume that, if God ensures temporal salvation, that it's God's will that everyone enjoy it to the same degree. I don't believe that. I believe it's God's will that some enjoy sanctification (temporal salvation) more than others, and others enjoy it less. Although, I don't use the word "enjoy." I would say it's God's will that some are more sanctified than others, and others are less sanctified than others.
June 29 at 3:23pm
Nick
But one thing is sure (as far as what I believe): I believe God does ensure SOME level of sanctification by all the elect. How much sanctification is ultimately up to Him, but there WILL be a difference (2 Cor. 5:17) between the regenerate and the unregenerate.
June 29 at 3:25pm
Sing F Lau
Nick @ "I would say it's God's will that some are more sanctified than others, and others are less sanctified than others."
=========
Then you have to prove that such is God's will indeed, otherwise it is your fable.
But the Scriptures is PLAIN AS THE NOON DAY SUN that the level of PRACTICAL sanctification is dependent and determined by the effort of God's children.
"Work out your own salvation..."
"Feed... feed... feed..."
The definitive sanctification for each elect is as complete and perfect as ENSURED BY GOD. Even God's elect who died in infancy are as perfectly and completely sanctified definitively. Even those who have no opportunity to hear, God ensured that they are as perfectly and completely sanctified definitively.
But in term of practical salvation, such have NONE, ZILCH. So, according to your fiction, God FAIL MISERABLY in His work of ensuring some practical in such. Or may be in such, God ensured that they die without practical sanctification.
I would take that your idea is a evil fiction that impugns upon God's character than that God should fail in His work of ensuring different measure of temporal salvation to His children.
If He does ensure temporal salvation at all, it would right to believe that God ensures each child to be equally alike like men such as John Gill or Spurgeon, or Apostle Paul?
Your fiction comes toooooo pathetically far short of God's power and glory! You might as well say it is God ensures that some have NO practical sanctification.
It is like saying a wicked father ensures that some of his children receives no food, others have little and others have a bit more.
June 29 at 5:56pm
Nick
You said, "You might as well say it is God ensures that some have NO practical sanctification. ... It is like saying a wicked father ensures that some of his children receives no food..."That is where we draw the line. Recall the Parable of the Four Soils. Those who produced ZERO fruit were not saved at all. God ensures that His children bear SOME fruit, some 30-fold, some 60-fold, and others (like John Gill, et. al.) 100-fold.
It's true that we, humans, do have to work out our salvation, but it's God who works in us to do and to will of His good pleasure. So at the end of the day, God is sovereign over how much fruit a person bears. To leave God out of the equation is to deny His sovereignty over man's (temporal) sanctification.
June 30 at 3:23am
Sing F Lau
Thanks Nick. Go your way, brother.
Let me conclude what YOU INSIST:
- God ENSURES that all His children experience temporal salvation.
- God also ENSURES that some of His children experience ZERO temporal salvation.
- The parable of the sower shows God ENSURES some of His children to be fruitless and BARREN.
Please note: the parable of the sower ADDRESSES THOSE THAT ARE IN THE KINGDOM... not how to get into the kingdom, how to be saved, and remain saved, and ensure a place in heaven.
That is your BASIC and fundamental error in understanding the parable.
So, you don't believe that God's children can be fruitless. You insist that the fruitless are not God's children to begin with.
That's a plain contradiction of the plain teaching of the Bible:
Apostle Peter writing to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" warn them in these SOLEMN words:
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Apostle writing to ALL THOSE SAINTS in Corinth and Achaia these words, "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."
God's children who are careless will be fruitless. Christ said it, His apostles warn against it solemnly... but Nick rejects it!
Thanks... keep your work-based salvation. I hope you do well enough to qualify a place in heaven.
June 30 at 3:41pm
Dellis
I found that while I was child coming up that many times I did something wrong, something in which my dad would definitely not approve of. While in err I felt guilty and as though I wasnt at peace with dad, if he found out what I had done from someone else,things would just be worse. Our fellowship was lost because of my guilt..I eventually couldnt take it any ,ore amf told him what i had done and ina lot of cases he confessed to already knowing but out of love for the fellowship, he waited for me to confess. He was always faithful and just to forgive,though sometimes a punishment came even after the confession....That reminds me of temporal salvation. Eternal salvation is always on this wise. No matter what sins I commit while here,Christ, my advocate, takes the blame and paid the price and sees to it that all that are given to Him are never lost....this insures that we will, one day, stand before God as sons of God without blame. If you want to have a closer walk with Christ, while here on earth,,stay and be honest with Him because if you try to hide your sins from Jesus.you are only fooling yourself....He already knows.
King David lost a child because of his unconfessed infidelity and murder....He was punished during his temporal salvation but it affected his eternal salvation none....We workout out our own temporal salvation,God worked out the eternal one.
June 30 at 1:21pm
Sing F Lau
Good illustration. Thanks Dellis.
July 8 at 8:29am
