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| Which aspect of the doctrine of justification are you talking about? |
Initially posted here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/3861027199648
"Men and women become justified only at
the point of believing in Christ" --- said the principal of Toronto Baptist Seminary and professor of church history & reformed spirituality
--- in the article here
http://www.the-highway.com/articleFeb06.html.
Thanks to Charles Page for sharing the article.
So many believe in their justification before God by their faith alone. The above quote is an expression of that popular fable! Do you believe the same popular idea?
"Come now, and let us reason together..." Isa 1:18
Bill
I would agree in as much as the person
becomes justified before the court of their own conscience and the witness of
the Spirit when they believe in Jesus Christ. However, they must have already
been justified before God by the finished work of Jesus Christ upon the cross.
They also must have already been justified by the Grace of God before the
foundation of the world by being chosen in Christ and adopted by Him.
[Justification by the free grace of God
happened in time, NOT before the foundation of the world. Justification by
God's decree happened before the foundation of the world, sing]
Sing F Lau
Bill, what do you think Haykin, a reformed
baptist, means by the statement, "Men and women become justified only at
the point of believing in Christ"?
Bill
Brother Sing, I would not know precisely in
that I have not read after Haykin to know more fully what he means. Just
stating my understanding on it. My view of it is that the justification that
takes place at the point of believing in Jesus Christ is in one's experience
because prior the person feeels to be justfied by the law (or their own works).
I strongly believe that when a person believes in Jesus Christ that, to them,
Christ them be comes their righteousness (justfication) and their feelings of
justification by works (or Law) end.
Pj
Going
by what most Reformers think, he perceives all forms of justification as legal.
Sing F Lau
"Men and women become justified only at
the point of believing in Christ."
FIRSTLY, this statement by the above Reformed
Baptist betrays a woefully deficient understanding of the manifold aspects of
the truth of justification taught in the Scriptures. Why?
The statement is true ONLY with regard to the practical experiential sense! But that's not what the author means, being a typical reformed baptist.
The Scriptures teaches a multifaceted
doctrine of justification.
- There is a DECRETAL justification.... when
God purposed to justify all His elect, they are justified in His purpose. See
1689.11.4a
- There is a LEGAL justification... when
double imputation TOOK place at the cross. This is justification by the
blood/faith/righteousness of Christ, declaring the ground/basis of
justification. See 1689.11.3,4b
- There is a VITAL/PERSONAL justification...
when the righteousness of Christ is applied to an elect PERSONALLY. What was
LEGAL before is now PERSONAL. This is justification by the free grace of
God.... the manner the righteousness is applied. See 1689.11.1 and 4c.
- There is an EXPERIENTIAL justification...
when a justified child of God believes and rest in Jesus Christ, he experiences
the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace! See 1689.11.2
- There is the FINAL justification before the
great throne on judgment day... when the saints shall be vindicated before all.
Take a look here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-justification-as.html.
It is typical of the Reformed Baptists to confuse the experiential aspect justification with both the legal as well as the vital/personal aspects of justification. They probably don't even understand the last sentence!
Justification is a multifaceted diamond, not just a glass marble!!!
Sing F Lau
Pj, you observe and conclude correctly.
Sing F Lau"Men and women become justified only at
the point of believing in Christ" ---
SECONDLY, this statement by the above
Reformed Baptist is ANTI-Scriptural... Here's why.
- "The just shall live by faith..."
is repeated many times in the Scriptures.
- It is the just, those ALREADY justified by
the free grace of God that shall live by faith.
- It is NOT the unjustified who shall believe
and be justified!
At the point of believing, the justified of God experiences the blessedness of his justification by God's free and sovereign grace on the basis of Christ's righteousness.
The statement is as deficient and as
anti-Scriptural as this statement:
"men and women become condemned only at
the point of sinning."
No, every one in the human race was DECLARED
legally condemned, being IMPUTED legally with Adam's sin.
And that condemnation is APPLIED personally
at conception in the womb... such that a man is conceived in sin and born in
sin.
And the condemnation applied personally is EXPERIENCED consciously at the point of transgressing the law of God.
Sing F Lau
"Men and women become justified only at
the point of believing in Christ" ---
THIRDLY, this statement by the above Reformed
Baptist is logically fallacious!
Why? It's putting the cart before the horse!
Such a statement implies that the unjustified,
i.e. still in his native state of sin and condemnation, is capable of believing
and become justified by God. It is the justified that shall believe in Christ.
Such a statement implies that the unjustified, i.e. still in his native state of sin and condemnation, is capable of believing, and therefore already regenerated. But how can a man be unjustified (under condemnation and death) and regenerated at the same time????
Justification of life by God the Father gives divine warrant, and precedes the regeneration unto life by God the Spirit.
The application of Christ's righteousness to
an elect personally by God the Father PRECEDES and GIVES DIVINE WARRANT for
Spirit of God to regenerate the one already justified by God.
The removal of the condemnation of death in justification by God paves way for the bestowal of eternal life in regeneration by the Spirit of God.
Charles
In the article, they stumble over eternal justification.
They assume eternal justification is hyper-Calvinism.
Sing F Lau
Many people who accuse Gill of
hyper-calvinism DON'T even have the mental capacity to read and understand what
he says!!!
And this so annoyed the great historian Dr Ella, that he said, "People who make statements which they have not thought through themselves would be better keeping their mouths shut until light dawns." Dr George Ella. http://evangelica.de/articles/why-i-am-not-a-hyper-calvinist/
It is pathetic... them elitist 'reformed' deformed elites!!!
Charles
That is a good read. thanks.
Sing F Lau
The people who shout hyper-calvinism are
completely ignorant of the MULTIFACETED nature of the biblical doctrine of
justification. They are acquainted with ONE ASPECT of it only.... name
experiential justification by their faith!
Their understanding of the doctrine is
likened to a one-fingered hand....
- no thumb (justification by decree),
- no first finger (justification by
blood/faith/righteousness of Christ,
- no middle finger (vital/personal
justification by the free grace of God..
- They have the RING finger (experiential
justification by faith IN Christ)
- no last finger (final vindication before
the throne of Christ on judgment day!)
Take a look here: One-Fingered Hand is a
Monstrous Deformity!
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/08/one-fingered-hand-is-monstrous.html
Sing F Lau
"Men and women become justified only at
the point of believing in Christ."
FOURTHLY, this statement by the above
Reformed Baptist plainly contradict God's free grace!
If men and women become justified by God at the point of believing, then their believing is the instrumental means of their justification.
However, the Scriptures declares thus:
- Ro 3:24 "Being justified freely by his
grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
FREELY by His grace... not conditioned upon
believing in any sense whatsoever!
- Tit 3:7 "That being justified by his
grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
By His GRACE... not conditioned upon
believing in any sense whatsoever!
- Ro 4:5 "But to him that worketh not,
but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for
righteousness."
God justifies the UNGODLY - in their native
state of condemnation and death.
The statement above insists the opposite,
i.e. God justifies the BELIEVING!
(OK, I'm sure some would like to raise some
questions on Rom 4:5.
Listen carefully please... please don't be addicted to SOUND-BYTE. Get the SENSE! The believer's faith accounted to him for righteousness is NOT NOT NOT the same as Christ's righteousness counted to him for his justification before God.
The former speaks of experiential justification, i.e. believing in Christ enables a child of God [regenerated elect] to experience the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace of God. The latter speaks of God justifying an ungodly by His free and sovereign grace.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology!
Sing F Lau
"Men and women become justified only at
the point of believing in Christ."
FIFTHLY, this statement by the above Reformed
Baptist disowns the teaching of the 1689 CoF!
The chapter on Justification, chapter 11 of
1689 CoF, PLAINLY teaches that those JUSTIFIED by God's free and sovereign
grace are enabled to believe.
Take a look here: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-justification-as.html.
Any credible objections are welcome.
Sing F Lau
"Men and women become justified only at
the point of believing in Christ."
SIXTHLY, this statement by the above Reformed
Baptist repudiates the teaching of the early particular baptists of America...
It is COMPLETELY and diametrically opposed to
this clear statement!
- "The reason why any are justified IS
NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they
are justified." A Circular Letter on Justification, issued by the
Philadelphia Baptist Association, October 4, 1785.
http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/2008/01/justification-circular-letter-in-1785.html
This statement by the PBA PLAINLY implies that justification precedes faith; that justification before God by His free grace is PRIOR to, and the CAUSE of, the act of believing in Christ.
Lindsey
Good word, sing
Sing F Lau
"Men and women become justified only at
the point of believing in Christ."
SEVENTHLY, this statement by the above
Reformed Baptist denies that the justification of Abraham by God took place
before Gen 15!
If men and women become justified, or are justified by God, only at the point of believing, THEN Abraham was not justified until he believed in Gen 15. If that be the case, then Abraham in Gen 12-14 was still in his unjustified state, i.e. he is still in his native state of condemnation and death.
Go, read Gen 12-14 carefully and see what kind of a man you see in Abraham... a child of God, or a man still in his native state of condemnation and death.
Gen 15:1-6 is not addressing the justification of Abraham by God.
It is speaking of Abraham experiencing the
blessedness of his justified state (by God's free grace while an ungodly man in
Ur of the Chaldeans) through his believing (in contrast to him observing any
ceremonial law like circumcision!)
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted
it to him for righteousness.
His act of believing is counted to him for
righteousness.... his act of believing was blessed by God unto him to
experience the blessedness of his righteous standing before God.
There is NO justification in Gen 15:6... because justification REQUIRES the accounting of the righteousness of Christ, and NOT the believer's faith!
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology!
Charles
What about the new Hampshire confession? This
seems to be the confession that the SBC focuses on.
Sing F Lau
Not acquainted with it! Never laid hand on
one.
Charles
E. Y. Mullins worked from the New Hampshire
Confession when the Baptist Faith and Message was first composed in 1925. He
was a pragmatic Calvinist! And he set the snowball at the top of the hill that
'snowballed' into the current SB world evangelism. Practically rid the SB
churches of what was supposed to be Calvinism. Today the SB's are moderated
Arminians, just clinging to OSAS! They falsely think this is their Calvinistic
Baptist heritage.
Sing F Lau
Brother Charles, I check Thomas J Nettles'
"By His grace and for His glory" on what he has to say about Mullins
(pg 246-257), the first paragraph is enough to convict him!!!
I quote the first paragraph:
E.Y. Mullins "Although the doctrine of
unconditional election was accepted by E Y Mullins, both his theological method
and his specific exposition of divine election served to compromise the earlier
views of Dagg, Boyce, Broadus, Manly, Mell and others. Emphasis on human
consciousness and experience so predominate in the totality of Mullins's [sic,
sing] theology that human decision and freedom eventually overshadow and crowd
out effectual divine activity. This is evident in his view of Scripture,
justification, and the panorama of theology, but is especially clear in his
exposition of the doctrine of election."
The next paragraph is worse!
Jonas NOg
It is all the work of GOD .. He caused us to
believe in the One He sent, R lORD Jesus Christ .. IT WAS STILL THE FATHER WHO
DRAWS US NIGH TO JESUS.. 🙂
Sing F Lau
If God CAUSED us to believe... does God cause
EVERY elect to believe in Jesus Christ, or just some of them?
Ronald D. Jacutin
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified
by works of Law, but that it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed
into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works
of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law). Psa. 123:2
Rom 3:21 But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being
witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God
through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those believing; for
there is no difference,
Sing F Lau
Ronald, thanks for quoting those verses.
What do you want to say by them? Everyone can
quote Scriptures... the devils too! No offence intended!
When you quote Scriptures, it is imperative for you to tell us what the quoted Scriptures are saying.
Ronald D. Jacutin
You are talking about justification, I am
providing verses in your discussion for reference. I always believe that when I
talk about the doctrine of God I must cite always the Word of God in honor to
the owner of the doctrine.
Sing F Lau
The issue is not about the authority of our
believe... we both agree (I hope) it is Scriptures ALONE, plus NOTHING.
But what are these verses saying to you? What
do you believe about these verses teach on justification?
Ronald D. Jacutin
Jesus' Faith is the cause why God justified
me. Believing in Jesus is the evidence that the Father God justified me.
Sing F Lau
Thanks. Now I see what you want to say by
those verses.
Try teaching that to the missionary
baptists!!!
Ronald D. Jacutin
I already shared and continue sharing it to
them but many of them cannot accept it because they are still dead spiritually.
Some who are alive spiritually accepted it and go with me in my ministry now.
That is why we are now 16 Gospel workers in the ministry of Sovereign Grace
Baptist ministry. Pls pray for me that I can maintain my boldness to preach the
truth.
Ronald D. Jacutin
Rom 8:28 But we know that to the ones loving
God all things work together for good, to those being called according to
purpose;
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also
predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the
First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He
also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He
justified, these He also glorified.
Sing F Lau
Which translation are you quoting from?
When you say, "Jesus Faith is the cause
why God justified me", what do you mean by "Jesus' Faith"?
Please explain a bit!
Ronald D. Jacutin
LITV pf Dr. Green of the Sovereign Grace
Ministry translation from Textus Receptus. Because of the term "kjv Gal
2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the
faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be
justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the
works of the law shall no flesh be justified. AS THE LORD IS MY SAVIOR OR MY
MEDIATOR TO GOD HIS FAITH TO THE FATHER GOD IS THE REASON WHY THE GOVERNMENT OF
HEAVEN DECLARED I AM RIGHTEOUS OR JUSTIFIED.
Sing F Lau
What is "the faith" of Jesus Christ
to the Father God?
What does "the faith" of Jesus
mean, or speak of in the context of justification?
Is it Jesus' act of believing the Father God?
What is a prerequisite in justification
before God?
I ask in order to understand what you mean.
Ronald D. Jacutin
His faithfulness through perfect obedience...
Tom Nickell
Men and women (and children) become justified
only at the point of Christ dying on their behalf. Rom 5:9
Sing F Lau
Justification is a multifaceted jewel; you
have stated one distinct aspect of the doctrine of justification.
Tom Nickell
Sola Cristo Gloria.
Okechukwu Onyekachi
I think we have been justified from the day
Jesus Christ has risen from the dead since God has elected us even before the
foundation of the world, Jesus Christ did not walk in this world searching for
the unknown sheep rather the lost sheep of Israel which means they were known
even before his appearing, and then Faith for us to believed (received) this
glorious work of love happened or was confirmed to our inner man from the very
day the faith to believe got to be active in us through the word.
Sing F Lau
Justification is a multifaceted jewel; you
have stated one distinct aspect of the doctrine of justification.
Sing F Lau
I suggest you start with this article:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-justification-as.html
Okechukwu Onyekachi
I will study this too, thanks.
