"We believe that salvation
always has been and always will be
through faith alone
in Christ alone
by grace alone."
always has been and always will be
through faith alone
in Christ alone
by grace alone."
I read the above statement from the website of a seminary, and wrote to inquire about the three 'Alones' in the statement. The academic dean of the seminary (Nobert is just a pen name) replied and we exchanged some mails.
=======
From: sing
Date: August 17, 2009 12:19:08 AM GMT+08:00
Dear Nobert,
I read in your web site this doctrinal statement, "We believe that salvation always has been and always will be through faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone."
I am a little puzzled by the statement above - by the 3 'alone'.
Are the three 'alone' related to the one same salvation in exactly the same sense?
If they are, then how can it be by Christ alone... and by faith alone also?
I thought 'alone' excludes everything else!
I can understand that it is through Christ's blood and righteousness alone freely imputed by grace alone. If it is by faith alone, then how can it be by grace alone ALSO in the same sense?
I thought the relation of faith to salvation is that it is an EVIDENCE of salvation already freely bestowed.Faith is the effect and product of salvation ALREADY bestowed by the free grace of God. Only those whom God has ALREADY saved - i.e. legally justified and given eternal life at regeneration - are able to believe. Faith is one of the many graces found in the person already justified by God.
It is God that justifies legally a condemned sinner.
Faith justifies experientially a believer that he is a child of God.
Whoever believes HAS eternal life, i.e. faith vindicates the believer that he a child of God.
There is a salvation which is by the free grace of God - bestowed to us when we were dead in sin and trespasses. This is eternal salvation by God's free grace.
There is a salvation that God's children (i.e. already saved by the free grace of God) have to work out for themselves with fear and trembling. This is temporal salvation (relating to the life here and now) through the obedience of God's children to their Father's will.
The salvation that is through our faith in Jesus Christ is distinct and different from the salvation that is by the grace of God in Jesus Christ.
Would it be the same to say, "We believe that eternal salvation always has been and always will be by works of Christ alone, and bestowed freely by the grace of God alone. And this same salvation is experienced by faith alone in Christ." It is however not evidenced by faith alone, but by both works and faith. Jas 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Faith and works justify in the SAME sense - evidentially.
desiring to understand,
sing, penang
==================
From: Nobert
Date: August 17, 2009 4:21:01 AM GMT+08:00
Dear sing, penang
Thanks for your inquiry. Even though you seems to do more explaining than asking, I'll take at face value your expressed desire to learn. You cited our doctrinal statement:
"We believe that salvation always has been and always will be through faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone."
You then inquire, Are the three 'alone' related to the one same salvation in exactly the same sense?
Simple answer: No. The three "alones" do not relate to the one same salvation in the same sense, otherwise we'd have a linguistic and theological contradiction on our hands :-)
Explanation: Syntactically (i.e., in terms of sentence structure), the "alones" are related to "salvation" by means of prepositions. As you're probably aware, the English prepositions "through," "in," and "by" have a broad semantic range (i.e., range of meaning). What then do we mean? We mean the following:
(1) Christ's redemptive work is the alone basis of our salvation.
(2) Simple faith is the alone instrument by which we receive salvation, that is, the legal blessings of justification and adoption.
(3) God's grace is the alone in the sense of ultimate efficient cause of our salvation. (So "yes," to address one of your statement-questions, faith is the evidence of God's grace, Eph. 2:8-10.)
To these we might add the other two "solas" of the Protestant Reformation: the Bible alone and God's glory alone.
(4) The Bible is the alone in the sense of ultimate authority on which we base our faith and practice.
(5) God's glory is the alone in the sense of ultimate motive for our faith and obedience as well as end for all that God does in creation and redemption.
For a further explanation of the "five solas" of the Reformation, see http://www.fivesolas.com/5solas.htm.
You do make some statements below that either need clarification or are not precisely correct:
You say, "Faith is the effect and product of salvation ALREADY bestowed by the free grace of God." If you're referring narrowly to God's effectual call or to regeneration (in the narrow sense), then you're correct. But if you're referring to salvation as referring to the legal blessings of justification and adoption as well as to the moral blessing of progressive sanctification, then it's not correct to speak of faith as the effect or product. Rather, faith is the alone instrument by which we receive the graces of justification and adoption and by which we obey God's word evangelically.
You say, "Only those whom God has ALREADY saved - i.e. legally justified and given eternal life at regeneration - are able to believe. Faith is one of the many graces found in the person already justified by God." Here you are imprecise. No one is justified apart from faith. We are justified in time and space "by faith" (see Rom. 5:1). Justification does not happen in eternity past. According to Ephesians 2:3, we were--prior to conversion-- "children of wrath." It is only when we believe that we are then justified. That is the Protestant and, I believe, biblical doctrine.
You say, "The salvation that is through our faith in Jesus Christ is distinct and different from the salvation that is by the grace of God in Jesus Christ." Here, I must confess I don't know what you have in mind. The entirety of our salvation is "by the grace of God in Jesus Christ." So I don't know what aspect of salvation that involves faith apart from grace that you may have in mind. Election, effectual calling and regeneration (narrowly defined) precede faith. But the blessings of conversion, justification, adoption, and sanctification are fruits of faith, which is itself a gift of God's grace.
Your final comment seems to indicate that you've been taught something like "eternal justification," that is, the idea that God justifies objectively in eternity past and that any reference to the blessing of justification that happens in time and space is purely subjective in nature. This is a heterodox teaching and falls outside Protestant and Reformed doctrine.
If you'd like to learn more about the error of eternal justification, you may listen to a sermon my fellow pastor, Jeffery Smith, preached that can be accessed here: "Justification in Time not Eternity"
I hope my responses don't come across condescending. I'm responding to you as one who is sincerely seeking to understand the truth and not as one who's already made up his mind and is just looking for a dispute.
May the Lord guide you into the truth.
Your servant,
Nobert.
================
From: sing
Date: August 17, 2009 12:46:37 PM GMT+08:00
Dear Nobert,
Thanks you for your helpful reply. I do desire to learn... I have various scattered thoughts that I need help to see how they can fit together. I will spend some time reading and understanding what you have written.
Meanwhile, I would ask a question. I am not sure if I can express the question correctly.
When are our sins imputed to Jesus Christ - when Jesus Christ died on the cross for us, or when we believe in him? I am trying to understand the various facets of justification, and when each takes place. I read an article by Mr Joel Beeke that shed some light on this.
I don't believe in eternal justification. Actual justification takes place in time.
However, I do believe that the justification (like adoption) of the elect was DECREED in eternity.
What was it took place at the cross? All the sins of all God's elect was imputed to Christ, and Christ righteousness imputed to all His elect at the cross. Legal justification of all the elect was SECURED at the cross. This legal justification is APPLIED PERSONALLY to each elect in God's appointed and approved time at their effectual calling unto grace and salvation. When this justification is applied to an elect personally, personal condemnation is removed, eternal life is imparted and adoption took place. This makes the child of God (a regenerated elect) capable of believing. When this child of God believe the gospel, he experiences the blessings of justification. He is justified EXPERIENTIALLY. Faith justifies a believer experientially and practically.
I found these truth stated in an old confession of faith. “God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.”
Three aspects of justification are stated here. God DID decree to justify ALL the elect.
Christ did justify LEGALLY ALL the elect. But these are not justified PERSONALLY until..... the next act at God's appointed and approved time for each elect. Holy Spirit does APPLY this legal justification personally at effectual calling, thus ACTUAL justification took place. What the Holy Spirit applied is EXPERIENCED by faith through the gospel ministry. Faith is possible ONLY AFTER the Holy Spirit has applied Christ personally unto them.
These are the three aspects of justification summarized in the above statement. First, there is the justification decreed by God for all the elect from all eternity, Second, there is the legal justification secured by Christ in time at the cross for all the elect, Third, there is the justification applied by the Holy Spirit to each individual elect at God’s appointed and accepted time at effectual calling unto life.
When justification is applied at effectual call to grace and salvation, then there will be faith at the hearing of the word, which brings us to the fourth aspect of justification, which is the justification by faith, i.e. evidenced and experienced by faith at initial conversion at the gospel call, and thereafter, throughout life. Fifthly, there is the justification vindicated publicly at the resurrection and glorification of God’s elect, just as Christ Jesus was declared, vindicated to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
These five aspects of justification are like the five fingers of a well-formed hand. Each one is distinct, yet united together in a wholesome hand.
These are some thoughts floating in my mind... as I wrestle to rightly divide the word of truth.
What is the requirement to be a student at the virtual seminary?
sing penang
=========
From: Nobert
Date: August 18, 2009 1:18:08 AM GMT+08:00
Sing Penang,
SEE MY COMMENTS BELOW:
Thanks you for your helpful reply. I do desire to learn... I have various scattered thoughts that I need help to see how they can fit together. I will spend some time reading and understanding what you have written.
Meanwhile, I would ask a question. I am not sure if I can express the question correctly.
When are our sins imputed to Jesus Christ - when Jesus Christ died on the cross for us, or when we believe in him?
I am trying to understand the various facets of justification, and when each takes place.
I read an article by Mr Joel Beeke that shed some light on this.
I don't believe in eternal justification. Actual justification takes place in time.
However, I do believe that the justification (like adoption) of the elect was DECREED in eternity.
What was it that took place at the cross. All the sins of all God's elect was imputed to Christ, and Christ righteousness imputed to all His elect at the cross. Legal justification of all the elect was SECURED at the cross. This legal justification is APPLIED PERSONALLY to each elect at God's appointed and approved time at their effectual calling unto grace and salvation. When this justification is applied to an elect personally, personal condemnation is removed, eternal life is imparted and adoption took place. This makes the child of God (a regenerated elect) capable of believing. When this child of God believe the gospel, he experiences justification. He is justified EXPERIENTIALLY. Faith justifies a believer experientially and practically.
I found these truth stated in an old confession of faith. “God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.”
God DID decree to justify ALL the elect.
TRUE
Christ did justify LEGALLY ALL the elect. But these are not justified PERSONALLY until..... the next act at God's appointed and approved time for each elect. Holy Spirit does APPLY this legal justification personally at effectual calling, thus ACTUAL justification took place.
I DO NOT AGREE. ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION DOES NOT TAKE PLACE PRIOR TO OR APART FROM FAITH, WHICH IS THE ALONE INSTRUMENT OF JUSTIFICATION. “HAVING BEEN JUSTIFED BY FAITH, WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD” (ROM. 5:1). PEACE WITH GOD DOESN’T PROCEED JUSTIFICATION. BEFORE WE BELIEVE THE GOSPEL AND ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, WE ARE DESCRIBED AS “CHILDREN OF WRATH” (EPH. 2:3), MEANING THAT CHRIST’S ATONEMENT FOR OUR SINS IS NOT ACTUATED IN HISTORY UNTIL WE BELIEVE AND ARE, CONSEQUENTLY, JUSTIFIED OR ACQUITTED.
What the Holy Spirit applied is EXPERIENCED by faith. Faith is possible ONLY AFTER the Holy Spirit has applied Christ personally unto them.
There are three aspects of justification summarized in the above statement. First, there is the justification decreed by God for all the elect from all eternity, Second, there is the legal justification secured by Christ in time at the cross for all the elect, Third, there is the justification applied by the Holy Spirit to each individual elect at God’s appointed and accepted time at effectual calling unto life.
When justification is applied at effectual call to grace and salvation, then there will be faith at the hearing of the word, which brings us to the fourth aspect of justification, which is the justification by faith, i.e. evidenced and experienced by faith at initial conversion at the gospel call, and thereafter, throughout life. Fifthly, there is the justification vindicated publicly at the resurrection and glorification of God’s elect, just as Christ Jesus was declared, vindicated to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
These five aspects of justification are like the five fingers of a well-formed hand. Each one is distinct, yet united together in a wholesome hand.
HERE’S HOW I WOULD CONCEIVE OF THE FIVE-FINGERED HAND:
1. ELECTION: THE ULTIMATE CAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION
2. ATONEMENT: THE GROUNDS OR BASIS OF OUR JUSTIFICATION
3. ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION: THE POINT IN TIME IN WHICH WE TRANSITION FROM CHILDREN OF WRATH TO CHILDREN OF GOD. ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION INCLUDES BOTH OBJECTIVE DIMENSIONS (I.E., GOD IS AT PEACE WITH US) AND SUBJECTIVE DIMENSIONS (I.E., WE EXPERIENCE THE BLESSING OF FORGIVENESS AND RECONCILIATION).
4. EXPERIENTIAL JUSTIFICATION: THIS IS REALLY JUST THE ONGOING SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE OF THE LEGAL BLESSINGS OF THAT POINT-IN-TIME ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION ABOVE, WHICH OCCURRED AT THE POINT OF OUR CONVERSION.
5. DECLARATIVE OR DEMONSTRATIVE JUSTIFICATION: THIS ENTAILS THE PUBLIC VINDICATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS AT THE LAST DAY.
YOU SEEM TO PLACE “ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION” PRIOR TO FAITH AT THE POINT OF EFFECTUAL CALL OR REGENERATION. I, ON THE OTHER HAND, SEE “ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION” AND LEGAL ADOPTION AS TAKING PLACE LOGICALLY SUBSEQUENT TO SAVING FAITH. “AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM HE GAVE THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO BECOME THE CHILDREN OF GOD, TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE ON HIS NAME (JOHN 1:12). NOTE THAT LEGAL ADOPTION IS SUBSEQUENT BOTH TO REGENERATION (1:13) AND TO SAVING FAITH (1:12).
FOR HELPFUL READING ON THIS SUBJECT, SEE JAMES BUCHANAN, THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION (BANNER OF TRUTH, 1961).
These are some thoughts floating in my mind... as I wrestle to rightly divide the word of truth.
What is the requirement to be a student at the virtual seminary?
THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST IN RBS. ONE NEEDS FIRST TO MAKE APPLICATION. I’VE ATTACHED AN APPLICATION, ACADEMIC CATALOG, AS WELL AS GUIDELINES & EXPECTATIONS FOR STUDENTS. LET ME KNOW IF I CAN BE OF FURTHER ASSISTANCE.
YOUR SERVANT,
Nobert
=============
From: sing
Dear Nobert,
You wrote:
HERE’S HOW I WOULD CONCEIVE OF THE FIVE-FINGERED HAND:
ELECTION: THE ULTIMATE CAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION
ATONEMENT: THE GROUNDS OR BASIS OF OUR JUSTIFICATION
ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION: THE POINT IN TIME IN WHICH WE TRANSITION FROM CHILDREN OF WRATH TO CHILDREN OF GOD. ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION INCLUDES BOTH OBJECTIVE DIMENSIONS (I.E., GOD IS AT PEACE WITH US) AND SUBJECTIVE DIMENSIONS (I.E., WE EXPERIENCE THE BLESSING OF FORGIVENESS AND RECONCILIATION).
EXPERIENTIAL JUSTIFICATION: THIS IS REALLY JUST THE ONGOING SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE OF THE LEGAL BLESSINGS OF THAT POINT-IN-TIME ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION ABOVE, WHICH OCCURRED AT THE POINT OF OUR CONVERSION.
DECLARATIVE OR DEMONSTRATIVE JUSTIFICATION: THIS ENTAILS THE PUBLIC VINDICATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS AT THE LAST DAY.
Thank you. Please bear with me... may be by your help, I may be able to connect different thoughts I am wrestling in my mind. It is good to see a slightly different picture of a wholesome justification hand. I do feel that it is confusing to introduce two 'foreign' fingers to the 'justification hand'. 'Election' and 'atonement' are distinct from justification. They don't belong to the 'justification' hand. I think they both constitute complete hands of their own.
I have referred to this statement in the old baptist confession. Let me quote it again:
“God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them."
We have the first three fingers here:
1. The justification decreed for all the elect before time. (it is not about election)
2. The justification accomplished/secured for all elect in time. (it is about justification secured.)
3. The justification applied to each elect personally.
When justification is applied to an elect personally, the personal condemnation of death is removed by God, giving warrant for the Holy Spirit to regenerate that elect, and adoption by the Father. These divine acts produce the grace of faith (and many others) in this child of God, enabling him to believe. This is the fourth finger of the justification hand.
I believe it is sound and self-evident that justification applied by grace must precedes and is prior to the justification evidenced by faith. A person still under the state of condemnation, i.e. in an un-justified state, can't possibly believe in order for the justification to be applied to him. That is putting the carriage before the engine. I don't see how a person, to whom justification has NOT been personally applied, have the ability to believe. A man still under the condemnation of death, i.e. justification not personally applied, doesn't have the ability to believe. Also justification applied must precede regeneration. Removal of condemnation by the justification applied by grace gives the ground for the Holy Spirit to regenerate and give eternal life. Believing is an activity of eternal life.
The same old baptist document says this: "Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love."
I think this statement speaks of the fourth finger of the wholesome justification hand.
4. The justification manifested/evidenced by faith.
The justification spoken of here is the justification by the faith of the believer. It is entirely different from the justification by the grace of God. It says that faith is NOT ALONE in the person justified. This clearly implies that faith is one of the many graces found in the person justified (simple past tense pointing to simple past action of the justification applied by grace). Faith justifies (simple present tense) the believer. Faith is (simple present tense) the alone instrument to experience/evidence the justified state (justification applied, once for all) by God's grace in the life of the believer.
To fail to distinguish justification applied by grace, and justification experienced and evidenced by faith has one serious difficulty. It is teaching that a sinner under condemnation (unjustified state, justification not applied) is capable of believing in order to have justification applied to him. Nearly all the churches in the world believe this idea (militant arminians as well as calvinists) . That is what puzzled me when I read the statement which provoke my initial inquiry.
YOU SEEM TO PLACE “ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION” PRIOR TO FAITH AT THE POINT OF EFFECTUAL CALL OR REGENERATION. I, ON THE OTHER HAND, SEE “ACTUAL JUSTIFICATION” AND LEGAL ADOPTION AS TAKING PLACE LOGICALLY SUBSEQUENT TO SAVING FAITH. “AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM HE GAVE THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO BECOME THE CHILDREN OF GOD, TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE ON HIS NAME (JOHN 1:12). NOTE THAT LEGAL ADOPTION IS SUBSEQUENT BOTH TO REGENERATION (1:13) AND TO SAVING FAITH (1:12).
FOR HELPFUL READING ON THIS SUBJECT, SEE JAMES BUCHANAN, THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION(BANNER OF TRUTH, 1961).
Your usage of 'actual justification' is interesting. I remember reading Buchanan using the same term, but he used it to refer to justification applied, a sharp and clear distinction from justification evidenced/experienced.
This is an interesting quote from Buchanan:
"The Protestant doctrine affirms that a sinner is made or constituted righteousness by having Christ's righteousness imputed to him; and that, being justified actually, he is also justified declaratively, when his acceptance is proved or attested, so as to be made manifest to his own conscience, or. to his fellow men. In both cases it is one and the same Justification that is spoken of, - his acceptance as righteous in the sight of God; but, in the one, it is considered simply as a fact, in the other, as a fact that is attested and proved. Actual Justification must comes first, and is necessarily presupposed in that which is declarative; and hence, if any one is declared to have been justified, we conclude that he was actually justified, or accepted as righteous as righteous in the sight of God." [sing penang: I am not sure if the emphasis is original. I copied the quote from an email from a Presbyterian friend. I am a baptist]
In Buchanan's understanding, there is a clear and sharp distinction between "justified actually" and "justified declaratively." The former precedes the latter, the former is attested and evidenced by the latter. Justification applied by grace is the ACTUAL justification. Justification evidenced is the justification attested and proved. Believing in Christ proves and attests the justified state of a person. Many believe otherwise...
Righteousness of Christ is imputed LEGALLY at the cross. It is applied PERSONALLY [Buchanan's ACTUAL justification] at effectual calling out of sin and death to grace and salvation. This actual justification is then manifested, demonstrated, attested and proved by faith in the blessed Lord Jesus. That's my present understanding of Buchanan in light of the old baptist confession.
I am now thinking that the same five finger hands illustration can be applied to adoption/sonship too. It may be something like this. I hope I make some sense.
a. Sons by decree for all elect before time: Eph 1:4-5 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
b. Sons by legal purchase for all the elect at the cross: “Gal 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.” - Only sons by God's decree are legally purchased by Christ's ransom.
c. Sons by birth at effectual call of each elect at God's appointed and accepted time: John 3:3-6 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 1:13 "sons of God... which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." 1Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” -Only sons by God's decree and legally purchased by Christ's ransom are born again by the Spirit of God.
d. Sons by experience through faith in Christ: John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Rom 8:13-14 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
- Only sons by God's decree and legally purchased by Christ's ransom, and born again by the Spirit of God are able to believe the gospel truth and have the right and power to claim that they are sons of God.
e. Sons by the resurrection & glory: Rom 8:23-24 “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?” - Only sons by God's decree and legally purchased by Christ's ransom, and born again by the Spirit of God shall be resurrected unto eternal glory.
I don't know if I make sense, as I try to compare what people say in light of the Scriptures.
I have mumbled too much.
a student,
sing penang.
================
From: Nobert
Date: August 19, 2009 3:36:33 AM GMT+08:00
Mr. Sing Penang,
You pose as an inquirer. But I get the impression, whether wrongly or rightly, that your real purpose is to debate. Accordingly, let me leave you with three brief lines of response:
(1) “I am doing a great work and I cannot come down” (Neh. 6:3). In other words, I am a busy man seeking to extend Christ’s kingdom as a pastor, professor, and seminary dean. Though I’m willing to help those who are sincerely wanting to learn, I don’t have time to engage in lengthy disputes with those who’s purpose is to debate.
(2) You cite Buchanan but it is apparent that you have not read his work. If you take the time to read him, you will see that he does not conceive of actual justification apart from or irrespective of faith (see The Doctrine of Justification, pp. 365-404). That justifying faith is the gift of God and is given at the moment of regeneration. Accordingly, one might argue that regeneration and justification are temporally simultaneous. Logically, however, one cannot believe unless he’s born again. And one cannot be justified apart from faith (Acts 13:38-39; Rom. 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:24; Phil. 3:9). So, according to Reformed doctrine, effectual call and regeneration (narrowly considered) precede justification in the ordo salutis (see http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/).
(3) I am not the one confusing the so-called “fingers of justification”; you are. And you’re portrayal is, frankly, confusing.
(a) The confession you cite merely states that God “decreed to justify.” Decreeing to justify is not the same as justifying anymore than decreeing to make a sparrow fall to the ground is the same thing as providentially causing the sparrow to die. God’s decree to justify is just that—a decree. And since it pertains to that dimension of God’s decree that has to do with our salvation, it fits neatly under the heading of our “election.” We were chosen unto salvation, which includes the blessing of justification.
(b) The work of Christ is the grounds of our justification but it is not in itself our justification. As the confession says, “Christ did ... die ... and rise ... for their justification,” that is, to provide the basis on which God could remain just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus (Rom. 3:24-26).
(c) What you call “personal” justification is in fact “actual justification.” Indeed, there is no other kind of justification except that which is “personal.” How can a non-personal entity be forgiven and clothed with the righteousness of a personal substitute? So if you want to use the five fingered hand as a teaching tool, fine. But don’t try to construct a non-personal doctrine of justification. God doesn’t justify abstract entities. He actually justifies persons in time and space.
(d) I would give you the same counsel with respect to your so-called five fingered doctrine of sonship or adoption. Notice carefully that the verses you cite do not teach that we are actually sons at the point of God’s decree (before time) or at Christ’s death (in history). What they teach, instead, is that these events serve as the efficient cause and legal basis on which the actuality of our sonship rests. But this blessing of sonship is actually conferred when we are regenerated and believe (John 1:12-13). Or as Paul states it, “For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith” (Gal. 3:26). Hence, there is no actual sonship apart from or irrespective of saving faith.
I hope this is helpful. If not, you’re welcome to audit our course on the doctrine of soteriology where this is considered in more detail. If you perceive that you’re not finding the right doctrine here at Reformed Baptist Seminary, then you’re welcome to search elsewhere on the Internet for someone who shares your views. I’m sorry but I just don’t have time to engage in an extended debate regarding this issue.
May God guide you into truth.
Nobert
===========
From: sing
Date: August 20, 2009 1:12:25 AM GMT+08:00
Dear Nobert,
Thank you for your reply. I am not seeking to debate, but seeking to see how you understand the statement which started my inquiry. I am trying to making sense of what the old baptist confession says, and what the new baptists are teaching.
I understand the ordo salutis like this, in light of the several aspects of justification (which I believe is plainly stated in the old baptist confession - I tried pointing them out to you, but which you wholly ignored. Many new school baptists have lost sight of that biblical truth.)
1. Effectual call to grace and salvation at God's appointed and approved time: This includes:
- justification applied (condemnation removed, righteousness applied). This is ACTUAL justification by grace alone, while an elect is still under condemnation of sin and death. "This actual justification must comes first, and is necessarily presupposed in that which is declarative (to be made manifest by faith)." wrote Buchanan.
- regeneration (eternal life imparted)
- adoption (with the Spirit of adoption bestowed... who works all the graces, including faith, in the child of God.
(All the above - logically in that order, but practically simultaneous - must necessarily precede the ability to believe in order to justified by faith. Any other way is illogical and irrational - and therefore necessarily anti-biblical. )
2. Faith exercised by a child of God (because he is already justified by grace, regenerated and adopted).
3. Demonstrative (experiential) justification by faith.
- This necessarily presupposed the Actual justification by grace above. Faith in Jesus Christ declares/demonstrates/proves the justified state of the believer, a child of God.
However, the Actual justification is based upon the Legal justification that has taken place on the cross. And the justification that took place on the cross was founded upon the justification that was decreed - for all the entities decreed, and predestinated, and whose name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Actual justification by grace precedes demonstrative justification by faith.
Faith precedes demonstrative/evidential justification.
Demonstrative/evidential justification follows faith. (This is what happened to Abraham in Genesis 15. He was ALREADY a justified man by grace in Gen 12-14! Very many believe that Abraham remained an unjustified man in Gen 12-14! Horror!)
Old baptists taught both. New baptists teach only the later! It seems they have rejected the former, plainly articulated in the old baptist confession.
(1) “I am doing a great work and I cannot come down” (Neh. 6:3). In other words, I am a busy man seeking to extend Christ’s kingdom as a pastor, professor, and seminary dean. Though I’m willing to help those who are sincerely wanting to learn, I don’t have time to engage in lengthy disputes with those who’s purpose is to debate.
## There is no debate. I just need a reliable sounding board to help me make sense of what the old baptist confession says, compared to what new baptists teach. I am trying to figure out what are the differences between them.
(2) You cite Buchanan but it is apparent that you have not read his work. If you take the time to read him, you will see that he does not conceive of actual justification apart from or irrespective of faith (see The Doctrine of Justification, pp. 365-404). That justifying faith is the gift of God and is given at the moment of regeneration. Accordingly, one might argue that regeneration and justification are temporally simultaneous. Logically, however, one cannot believe unless he’s born again. And one cannot be justified apart from faith (Acts 13:38-39; Rom. 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:24; Phil. 3:9). So, according to Reformed doctrine, effectual call and regeneration (narrowly considered) precede justification in the ordo salutis (see http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/).
## To be honest, I have probably read Buchanan more times than needed. If you have read the quote carefully, you may like to read it again, it has to be admitted that Buchanan understand 'actual justification' by God's grace as something distinct from, and prior to, the 'declarative justification' by believer's faith. They are distinct and separate. This much is obvious. But new school presbyterians and their rb cousins ignore the distinction, and mistake "demonstrative justification" by believer's faith as the "actual justification" by God's grace. That is why there is such confusion!
You said, "Logically, however, one cannot believe unless he’s born again." Logical indeed. It was the obvious contradictions that cause me to wrestle with the issue.
There is so much anti-logic when "demonstrative justification" by believer's faith is mistaken as the "actual justification" by God's grace. I hope you do see the anti-logic of the case. But it is very hard to recognize the inconsistencies and contradictions of one's own idea.
Equally logical, one cannot possibly be regenerated when he is still unjustified, i.e. still under the condemnation of sin and death.
Equally logical, one who is regenerated is ALREADY justified, i.e. the condemnation of death because of sin has been removed, and righteousness unto life already applied personally, and eternal life bestowed.
It is very anti-logic t say that an unjustified person, still under the condemnation of death and sin, is able to believe in order that he may be justified by God. That is very irrational... no less irrational as those who teach that one must believe in order to have eternal life.
Equally anti-logic is the Holy Spirit regenerating BEFORE the Father justifying the UNGODLY. (God justifies the ungodly. Faith justifies the believer. Many cannot see the obvious distinction. And it is only a person who is already justified by grace, regenerated and adopted, that is able to believe to demonstrate his justified state by grace.) Is it not logical, as well as biblical, that one who is born again has been justified by God? How could a person be regenerated if he is still under condemnation, i.e unjustified by God?
It is very anti-logic to say that a regenerated person is still under the condemnation of sin and death, and that his believing is the instrument to remove that condemnation!
(3) I am not the one confusing the so-called “fingers of justification”; you are. And you’re portrayal is, frankly, confusing.
(a) The confession you cite merely states that God “decreed to justify.” Decreeing to justify is not the same as justifying anymore than decreeing to make a sparrow fall to the ground is the same thing as providentially causing the sparrow to die. God’s decree to justify is just that—a decree. And since it pertains to that dimension of God’s decree that has to do with our salvation, it fits neatly under the heading of our “election.” We were chosen unto salvation, which includes the blessing of justification.
It seems that you are equating "God decreed to justify" to "God decreed to elect"! The old baptist confession explicitly state the former, but it seems you want to make it say the latter! I am puzzled.
Logically, the decree of election must obviously be distinct from, and precedes the decree of justification. Logically, election brings about the legal entity that requires justification. The decree to elect condemned entity to eternal salvation necessitated the distinct and separate decree of justification. Someone told me when a young man, "Distinction is the essence of sound theology."
Yes, a decree is a decree. That decree in eternity was executed and its object is accomplished in time. What is accomplished (legally for all the elect) is them applied personally - making it actual to individual elect. What is applied is then experienced and demonstrated. So simple and beautiful.
(b) The work of Christ is the grounds of our justification but it is not in itself our justification. As the confession says, “Christ did ... die ... and rise ... for their justification,” that is, to provide the basis on which God could remain just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus (Rom. 3:24-26).
Note what the old baptist confession says, "God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them."
Now you are saying that though "Christ did... die... and rise... for their justification " but no justification in any sense took place! Christ did this and this and this for their justification, and they were not justified in any sense. They said that Christ did this and that and they (this pronoun referring back to ALL THE ELECT) were LEGALLY justified - THOUGH they were not PERSONALLY justified.
When Jesus died on the cross, were all your sins LEGALLY imputed to him, or were they not? If they were not, then when were your sins imputed to Christ? If they were not, then Jesus didn't suffer for your sins on the cross! If they were imputed at some other times, e.g. when you believe, then when will Jesus need too suffer and to atone for your sins?
At the cross, the LEGAL justification took place for ALL of God's elect - as stated by the old baptist confession. It is on the basis of the LEGAL justification that ACTUAL justification is applied to each elect personally at God's appointed and approved time.
"THOUGH they are not justified personally" implies that by Christ's death, they (referring back to "all the elect") are justified LEGALLY, in the legal sense. Even though they are not justified PERSONALLY, they are justified LEGALLY. Their legal justification by the work of Christ is the only basis for their personal/actual justification at God's appointed and approved time.
(c) What you call “personal” justification is in fact “actual justification.” Indeed, there is no other kind of justification except that which is “personal.” How can a non-personal entity be forgiven and clothed with the righteousness of a personal substitute? So if you want to use the five-fingered hand as a teaching tool, fine. But don’t try to construct a non-personal doctrine of justification. God doesn’t justify abstract entities. He actually justifies persons in time and space.
Actual justification (Buchanan's term) is the same as the 'personal justification'. This is the same as the justification by God's grace. 'Demonstrative justification' (Buchanan's term) is the justification by faith. Some call this 'Evidential or experiential justification' by faith.
You have obliterated the clear distinction between justification by God's free grace (actual justification, justification applied) and justification by the believer's faith (demonstrative/evidential/experiential justification).
You asked, "How can a non-personal entity be forgiven and clothed with the righteousness of a personal substitute?"
You are absolutely right. There is no problem here unless you have misunderstood. "Until the Holy Spirit doth in time due ACTUALLY apply Christ unto them" Actual justification takes place when legal justification at the cross is applied to an elect personally "in time due."
It is also true that when Jesus died on the cross, many of God's elect were non-personal entities. You and I did not personally exist. Though we were non-personal entities, we were nevertheless LEGAL entities. Legal transaction can take place because each elect is a legal entity before they existed as personal entity. They exist in the mind of God, in God's redemptive purpose, and their names are already in the Book of Life.
You might as well object to the imputation of original sin because of this non-personal entity idea.
- Fall was decreed.
- Fall took place. LEGAL imputation of original sin to all non-personal entity of Adam's race.
- Imputation of sin become ACTUAL at conception into personal entity.
- Imputation of sin is DEMONSTRATED/evidenced and experienced by actual acts of sins.
- Imputation of sin finally VINDICATED in the Great Judgment.
You said, "God doesn’t justify abstract entities. He actually justifies persons in time and space."
God does justify legally the legal entities in space and time - at the cross. He also justifies actually the personal entities in space and time - at the effectual calling of each elect personally.
(d) I would give you the same counsel with respect to your so-called five-fingered doctrine of sonship or adoption. Notice carefully that the verses you cite do not teach that we are actually sons at the point of God’s decree (before time) or at Christ’s death (in history). What they teach, instead, is that these events serve as the efficient cause and legal basis on which the actuality of our sonship rests. But this blessing of sonship is actually conferred when we are regenerated and believe (John 1:12-13). Or as Paul states it, “For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith” (Gal. 3:26). Hence, there is no actual sonship apart from or irrespective of saving faith.
1. God made us sons first - actual sonship - through effectual calling to grace and salvation. Effectaul calling to grace and salvation requires ACTUAL justification, regeneration, and adoption, in that number and logical order.
2. Because God made us sons - by His free and sovereign grace - we are able to believe and experience our sonship.
Actual sonship logically and chronologically precedes experiential sonship.
Using Buchanan's words, " being justified [adopted] actually, he is also justified [adopted] declaratively, when his acceptance is proved or attested [i.e.by faith in Jesus Christ].
Sonship was decreed by God, sonship was made legal by Christ's death, sonship was made actual by the Holy Spirit in regeneration, sonship was experienced/demonstrated/attested by faith in Jesus Christ. And sonship shall be gloriously vindicated at the resurrection to eternal glory.
A one-fingered hand is a monstrous deformity. 'Justification by believer's faith' taught by the new baptists as the sum total of the doctrine of justification is akin to that one-fingered hand...
- without the thumb of Decretal justification in eternity,
- without the forefinger of Legal justification by Christ on the cross,
- without the middle finger of Actual justification applied at effectual calling...
- with the sole ONE big deformed ring finger of 'fide justification' at conversion.
- without the last finger of 'final justification' on judgment day.
Every time I look at my hands, I am reminded of the wonderful 5-facets of the divine truth of my justification.
I hope this is helpful. If not, you’re welcome to audit our course on the doctrine of soteriology where this is considered in more detail. If you perceive that you’re not finding the right doctrine here at Reformed Baptist Seminary, then you’re welcome to search elsewhere on the Internet for someone who shares your views. I’m sorry but I just don’t have time to engage in an extended debate regarding this issue.
Your thoughts are helpful. I can always learn something from a discussion. I am seeking that the Lord will help me to understand His truth. That is why I am inquiring. I am not seeking agreement or disagreement. But I do seek to be consistent in my thoughts. I will now go back and read the old baptists.
I do thank you for your time and patience. May our Lord Jesus continue to teach me.
I will consider doing some distant learning with the seminary.
sing penang
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