The imagined 'paradoxes' are like 'zonkeys'- the product of confusion
From: Big Brainy
Date: April 12, 2010 2:42:46 AM GMT+08:00
Subject: A paradox
We are called "Particular" Baptist because of our view of the atonement — we don't believe it made salvation possible, we believe that it actually redeemed those whom Christ died for (the elect).Date: April 12, 2010 2:42:46 AM GMT+08:00
Subject: A paradox
We further believe that the elect are a fixed number. the Lord Jesus Christ referred to them as "those who the Father has given Me." He also declared that all of them would come to Him. Paul tells of an unbroken chain for those who God foreknew to those He glorified. Those the Father elected; the Son redeemed; and the Spirit calls are the same people. All of them shall be glorified and none except those the Father elected will be glorified.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that is the teaching of the Bible; our Particular Baptist fore-fathers and present day "Calvinist" Baptists.
Then Paul says this in I Cor chapter 9:
19 ¶ For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to allmen, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you
Paul wishes to "win the more." He believes that how he conducts himself has a bearing on the number that will be won. This section of Scripture is just as inspired and has the same authority as passages that we spoke of earlier in defense of the elect being a certain number.
What do you think?
Big Brain
Mighty Midget April 12, 2010 8:46:34 AM GMT+08:00
I believe God inhabits eternity. We are creatures of time. He allows us to see, and somewhat understand some eternal truths. Yet our own perseverance is demonstrated as we obey the Spirit. He operates through us as if the results depend upon us…which it does… but only as results are produced by the leading of the Spirit in us and the work of the Spirit through us. As I write this I suddenly realized that I should have put the word “somewhat” in the second sentence above in capital letters.
sing April 12, 2010 10:45:12 AM GMT+08:00
Dear Big Brainy and Mighty Midget,
First, there is NO paradox or discrepancy in all of Scriptures.
All the seeming paradoxes and inconsistencies are the result of WRONGLY dividing the word of truth... period.
There are sincere and good people who believe that there are 'blessed inconsistencies' in Scriptures... thus assaulting the character and wisdom of God... albeit ignorantly, no less true nevertheless!
The early particular Baptists were very clear about the distinction between eternal salvation by God's FREE and sovereign grace ... "These angels and men thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished" Rom 8:28-29 would be a neat proof text for that statement of truth.
There is absolutely nothing a man can do with regard to his eternal salvation... The Triune God alone is the sole and only active agent with regard to his eternal salvation...
There is so much a child of God (he being one is ALL and absolutely by the free grace of God) must do himself, and assisted by others, to work out his own salvation here and now in this life before his glorification (also only solely by the grace of God.) That is the context of all the activities of men... and the gospel ministry.
Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Rightly dividing the word of truth removes all apparent paradoxes and 'blessed' inconsistencies.
The salvation God alone worked out for us by His free and sovereign grace, and the salvation God's children work out for themselves through their obedient responses to God's Spirit working in them are ENTIRELY different in NATURE, and DEFREE.
The Lord has been pleased to cure me of that 'cock eyed' disease after several years of struggle with those paradoxes and 'blessed' inconsistencies.
relieved and set free
sing
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I wrote this in another place:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/04/salvation-by-gods-free-grace-alone.html.
Salvation by God's free grace alone. Really?
Does the grace that saved you come from the flea market?
Is it infested with some conditions?
Salvation by FREE grace - every one mumbles that. However, is the FREE grace by which you are saved conditioned on anything - perhaps someone's preaching, zealous activities, or your own faith, etc?
Is your salvation really FREE on your part? Is it really by God's GRACE, GRACE pure and free? Beware of prostituted grace ...that has conditions attached!
Migthy Midget April 12, 2010 11:52:12 PM GMT+08:00
Sing, just for my own understanding, exactly what is a man “free” to do. Do you believe every time I stroke the computer, each and every stroke is pre-ordained so that I can do nothing else at the moment I am typing this? This has nothing to do with our doctrine of salvation, I am asking to understand your view of the extent of God’s decrees.
I think I have used the term “blessed inconsistencies” in the past…but is was to describe my own mind rather than God or His perfect word.
God bless,
Muddy Mind
sing April 13, 2010 11:04:01 AM GMT+08:00
Brother Mighty Mind, let me mumble some thoughts...
I believe God created man a FREE AGENT - i.e. he does everything freely, without coercion from outside of him. If this is not the case, the foundation of God's moral government over His creation collapses.
So, everything a man does, he does as a FREE AGENT, in conformity to his nature. And he shall be held accountable for his every action.
All of God's eternal decrees are executed in His works of creation, providence and redemption.
In redemption, the eternal purpose of redeeming for Himself a people is so fixed and designed, that nothing can change or alter it... that everything is freely and sovereignly executed by His own power. That is, every single elect shall be justified freely by grace, regenerated freely by grace, adopted freely by grace... and glorified freely by grace... no matter what - this is the only way that the promised redemption might be SURE TO ALL THE ELECT.
No among of activity or inactivity will affect in the slightest what God has purposed for the ETERNAL redemption of His elect. All His elect shall be EQUALLY justified, regenerated, adopted, and glorified... no more and no less.
In the matter of discipleship, a major human factor enters the equation... and God their Father shall hold them responsible for their obedience or disobedience. Still, he acts freely (now with his new nature implanted in him) he consciously exercise his choices... either in obedience to God, or in disobedience to God.
In providence, whether God deals with His creatures or His children... He either actively causes things to happen, or He passively permits things to happen, or He actively prevents things from happening.
In providence, men are to be guided solely by the revealed will of God.
No, I reject absolute predestination!
sandy thoughts from the south seas,
sing
Mighty Midget April 14, 2010 5:47:14 AM GMT+08:00
Good reply Sing. I thank you. Now…just to think along with you a little farther…what is evangelism? Should we evangelize simply as an act of obedience on our part. Should we have any emotion in the activity at all? Should we lament over those who seem to be going to hell? Is it proper to pray for them that God would have mercy on them and convert them or…should we just pray generally for the will of God to be done? I am trying to see how you go about evangelizing the lost and if you believe we should weep over them and work with all our might for their conversion? Is there any urgency in evangelism at all? And you know I am not talking about most modern evangelism methods…but more in the line of men like Whitefield who wept over sinners and pled with them to come to Christ.
Thanks
sing April 14, 2010 10:53:22 AM GMT+08:00x
Mighty Mind,
Am I being interviewed for the post of an assistant pastor or not
Evangelism is very important...
Christ commanded it...
Apostles obeyed it...
Apostles commanded the NT pastors to do the work of the evangelism...
NT pastors teachers see the urgency of the work...
BECAUSE evangelism is God's ordained means for the INSTRUCTION, and EDIFICATION of God's children, whom He himself has brought into being, wholly and solely by His free and sovereign grace.
The WELL-BEING of God's children, effectuallly called out of their state of sin and death. in which they are by nature, to that of grace and salvation, is depended upon the faithful ministry of the gospel (including evangelism), as well as faithful attendance to it.
Food - pure milk and meat - is very important... it is appointed for the nourishment of the living. So, it is of utmost urgency to call out to whoever will listen, to proclaim the gospel, the GOOD NEWS of what God HAS DONE in Jesus Christ... and the living among them, those whom God has effectually called to life, shall respond and rejoice at the good news of their salvation.
O yes, I weep over those who profess faith but are slow to obey, slow to feast on the truth to make themselves strong, etc. I LAMENT over those who name the name of Christ and yet enter the wide gate and walk the broad way that lead to destruction... I weep and plead with them, persuade them to walk worthy of their profession... that leads to life... not eternal life... but abundant life in Christ...
I hardly ever weep over the dead who would not eat. I ain't wasting my tears!
Like Paul, I do reason, persuade, explain an demonstrate the great need of a Saviour, fully conscious that the good news would still be a message of utter foolishness to those that are perishing.
On the similar subject I wrote this:
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A brother quoted this to prove gospel regeneration (preaching the the necessary means to bring about regeneration)
1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, where he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he to them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray you therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways.behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither purse, nor money, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5 And into whatever house you enter, first say, Peace be to this house. 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest on it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say to them, The kingdom of God is come near to you. 10 But into whatever city you enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which sticks on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be you sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come near to you. 12 But I say to you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Luke 10:1-12...
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I responded:
May I ask, and would you please consider this simple question: what part did those laborers have to do in the production of the Lord's harvest? Isn't it true that His harvest is ALREADY there... all ready to be gathered in, and the laborers are sent out to gather them into the NT church, into the safety of the barn here on earth. God's free grace alone has perfectly fitted them for heaven, and eternal glory.
Of course VERY MANY deluded preachers so sincerely believe that they are sent to gather souls into heaven!
Does this simple fact ever cross your mind?
The laborers are involved in the IN-GATHERING of the ALREADY EXISTING harvest. They play no part whatsoever in the PRODUCTION of the harvest.
This is so simple and obvious that I fear insulting a clever American! But insult is furthest from my mind. Enlightening and leading you to the simple truth is.
Children in my church do understand this pretty well. Many doctors of theology don't. Much easier to teach un-poisoned mind these self-evident truth.
"And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest on it: if not, it shall turn to you again."
Who is there first - the son of peace, or your coming with the gospel? Does God produce the son of peace first before you come to the scene, and you are to bring the glad tidings to such, or do your bringing of the glad tidings to the son of enmity becomes the instrument to turn that son of enmity into a son of peace?
Do you ever study and ask simple questions like these? Do people ever read and study the Bible, and let the Bible tell us what it says, or do we just make the Bible to say what we want ANY WAY?
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Please tell me if I am qualify to be an assistant to you.
just my sandy thoughts,
sing
"I believe God inhabits eternity. We are creatures of time. He allows us to see, and somewhat understand some eternal truths. Yet our own perseverance is demonstrated as we obey the Spirit. He operates through us as if the results depend upon us…which it does… but only as results are produced by the leading of the Spirit in us and the work of the Spirit through us. As I write this I suddenly realized that I should have put the word “somewhat” in the second sentence above in capital letters."
Well said Mike. God's ways are above our ways — and past finding out. The statements that God makes in Scripture are all true and our minds process them as far as possible for a finite being. We put them together logically and see the logical beauty of them.
But God has so many dimensions beyond our understanding or even our ability to imagine them. He doesn't let us in on all of it. The Spirit leads us in ways past our understanding and our personal actions affect the plan of God. It is not changed by us nor is there a need for God to adjust it at all; but still, Paul lives his life so that he might win the more.
Better to take all of God's Word by faith than to live our lives by our logical understanding. Not that logic is bad or wrong, God is the author of logic. The problem is our limited information and processing ability. Jesus and Paul wept over the lost and desired their salvation — elect and non-elect alike; knowing that all of the elect would be saved — and the elect only.
A sinner shown mercy,
Big Brainy
Mighty Midget April 14, 2010 11:24:34 AM GMT+08:00
Hi Sing…you have the job. You are my new assistant pester. :^).
Your explanation is making me think. Thank you for that. Let me ask you a hypothetical question (This is not a trap, I am asking to expand my thinking.). If you had a son who was not a believer and showed no interest at all in the gospel, would you not warn him of judgment to come; would you not beg him to come to Christ? Would it not bother you intensely to think that your son might be a child of hell and would you not be broken over his lostness? Could you just let him go? Have you ever had the experience of being burdened over someone who showed no signs of repentance?
I think of Christ weeping over Jerusalem, knowing they were not coming to him. I think of Jeremiah, the weeping prophet, who preached for nearly 50 years with hardly a convert and yet he was burdened. Is it right to urge ALL men to come to Christ? (Wow…that was several questions!...but maybe I am asking the same question in several different ways.)
Thanks,
MM
sing April 14, 2010 6:30:45 PM GMT+08:00
Mighty Midget, please show me that Christ wept over Jerusalem? Was Jerusalem condemned or wept over!
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
I am leaving now to give some English tuition... to augment a meagre stipend of a pester!
Who did Christ desire of gathering, and how was he hindered... and in what sense was he hindered... in an eternal sense or in a temporal sense?
Who did Christ desire to gather, and how was he hindered? Hinder in what sense?
What does EVEN AS a hen gathereth her chicks under her wings inform us of Christ desire to gather the children of Jerusalem?
Tell us, out-poster (GRIN).
I will write more later.
sing
Mighty Midget April 14, 2010 10:04:39 PM GMT+08:00
Sing, you are right. Sometimes when I am quoting off the cuff I get preacher’s sentimental renditions mixed up with Scripture. Bad on my part…that is why I need an assistant! :^).
Having said that, the people Christ would gather under his wing are the children of Jerusalem. The emotion is conveyed by the sight of a mother hen gathering her chicks for protection.
Mighty Muddled
sing April 14, 2010 10:36:49 PM GMT+08:00
Mighty, some children of Jerusalem are wolves and foxes, others are chicks.
Christ would gather the chicks, His redeemed people out of the earthly theocratic Jewish kingdom under the old covenant into the kingdom of heaven of the new covenant.
The hinderance was outward ONLY. The wolves and foxes would not permit or allow the chicks from being gathered out of the deadwood old theocratic national Israel.
No one can hinder Christ from gathering His redeemed unto heaven... He gives each eternal life, and each is perfectly fitted for eternal glory... and not even the devil himself could do anything!
sing
sing April 15, 2010 11:00:00 PM GMT+08:00
Mighty Morrow, I will entertain your question, though to you only a hypothetical question.
I train and teach my child to fear and honor God who is his Creator, to be trusted in, and rendered obedience unto as His creature - since the day he is capable of being taught. Every child has to be taught that he is a creature of God, living in God's world, and is answerable to God. That is what he is, first and foremost. Whether God his creator in creation ever become God his Father in redemption, is ABSOLUTELY out of my hand, and utterly beyond my scope of work and responsibility. I STILL DO BELIEVE that salvation is by the free and sovereign will of God.
I would preach the good news of redemption to them... persuading them of the necessity and blessedness to be found in Christ... as long as they remain under my authority and as long as God gives me opportunity. I do all that is in me for their temporal good here... training them in the way they ought to go... fear God and obey him.
I am not a sentimental man... that which is beyond my scope of work, or beyond my responsibility, I don't waste my feelings or emotion. But I am consumed by the task that I should do for the benefits of God's children... I preached with passion and intensity to persuade and convince God children to enter the narrow gate and walk the narrow way... to warn them against the wide gate and the broad way WHICH so many of God's children choose!
In that passage the few and the many BELONG to the ONE SAME GROUP - God's children. And the subject is about DISCIPLESHIP of God's children... few choose the way leading to abundant of life here; many choose the way of destruction. There are many Lots and few Abraham in the matter of discipleship.
sandy thought from the south seas,
sing
Mighty Midget April 16, 2010 3:05:39 AM GMT+08:00
Thank you brother for your time. Again you say things that make me think and I appreciate it. God bless. MM
