 |
"The angels which... left their own habitation"
committed the sin of trespassing,
leaving their native spirit realm
and trespassed into the human realm. |
on July 26, 2010
Please help me - what does Jude 6 say.
"And the angels which kept not their
first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting
chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
Please answer some questions for me. Deal
with Scriptures, please. Don't read private opinions into God's word. These are
simple enough questions.
Sing F Lau
Here are some questions.
1. What is the first estate of the angels?
2. When did those angels, that kept not their
first estate, leave their own habitation?
3. What happened when they left their own
habitation? Where did they go having left their own habitation?
4. Where, in the Scriptures, is this
departure from their first estate recorded, if is it indeed recorded at all?
5. Where did Jude get his information about
those angels that kept not their first estate but left their own habitation?
6. Were all fallen angels involved in this
departure?
7. Were all fallen angels reserved by God in
everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day?
Simple questions demand plain answers.
Now, please tell us what Jude 6 says.
(ALERT - Be careful. Answers have necessary
implications that may discredit them as plain erroneous!)
Sing F Lau
Please do not forget what 2Pet 2:4-5 say:
4 For if God spared not the angels that
sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved
Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon
the world of the ungodly;
1. Are verses 4 and 5 related? How?
2. Are the angels sinning and the destruction
of the old world related? How?
3. How did the angels sin?
4. Were all angels involved in this sin?
5. Did all the angels suffer the same fate?
6. Why did God destroy the old world?
Cheri Thomas
Define 'the great day'. that is key.
Sing F Lau
Please help us with a definition then.
Kate Richardson
I did the best I could--at least for now.
It's in "notes".
Kate Richardson
3) of the last day of this present age, the
day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment,
and perfect his kingdom
Cheri Thomas
Zephaniah 1
1 The word of the LORD which came unto
Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of
Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah.
2 I will utterly consume all things from off
the land, saith the LORD.
3 I will consume man and beast; I will
consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling
blocks with the wicked: and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the
LORD.
4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon
Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the
remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the
priests;
5 And them that worship the host of heaven
upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that
swear by Malcham;
6 And them that are turned back from the
LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him.
7Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord
GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a
sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the
LORD's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and
all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
9 In the same day also will I punish all
those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with
violence and deceit.
10 And it shall come to pass in that day,
saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and
an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all
the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
12 And it shall come to pass at that time,
that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled
on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will
he do evil.
13 Therefore their goods shall become a
booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not
inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
14 *THE GREAT DAY* of the LORD is near, it is
near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty
man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of
trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and
gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the
fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that
they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and
their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall
be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land
shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy
riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Cheri Thomas
Mark defines *the great day* as the
destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I suspect that is true, but I think it is
also a type and shadow of the day of the return of Jesus Christ at the end of
time.
In the context of the scriptures you present,
how would the term 'angel' be properly defined? what are these 'angels' that
are spoken of?
Sing F Lau
If 70AD is meant, then what happened to those
angels God had "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the
judgment of the great day"?
Jude 5
I will therefore put you in
remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the
people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own
habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the
judgment of the great day.
Looks like angels are used in clear
distinction from human beings. They are angelic beings who had sinned in
the particular manner stated.
Cheri Thomas
I think so too, but my dh [dear husband] has additional thoughts. Let me ask
you this, do you think there was 'warfare in heaven' at some time?
Sing F Lau
Tell us the warfare you have in mind?
When did that happen?
What happened in that warfare?
We are working toward a sound answer.
Cheri Thomas
the only Scriptural warfare that I know and
believe exists is that which occurs in the regenerated child of God, as
described by the Apostle Paul.
some folks believe that there was warfare in
heaven between God and Lucifer and their respective followers. I believe that
Milton presented this idea in Paradise Lost, but I don't think it originated
w/him.
Sing F Lau
All angels were created good. Where did the bad angels come from?
Some angels, filled with pride and aspired to
supreme authority, revolted against their Creator. This led to their downfall,
falling from their original position of glory.
In their downfall, they continued in their
own habitation - in the spirit/incorporeal estate. This fall from their
original position of glory DID not result in their being "reserved in
everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
Had ALL the fallen angels been "reserved
in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" -
the temptation in the garden of Eden would not have been possible.
Therefore, this SACKING and EXPULSION and FALL
from glory is OBVIOUSLY very different from what is spoken of in Jude 6.
Jude 6 is not speaking of a sacking or
expulsion or fall from glory because of pride. It speaks of their deliberate
act of TRESPASSING - "the angels which kept not their first estate, but
left their own habitation", and the judgment imposed upon those fallen
angels involved.
The judgment in the former, and the judgment
in the latter are very distinct and different.
Sing F Lau
Gen 6:1 ¶ And it came to pass, when men began
to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of
men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
=========
In these verses, 'men' and "sons of God'
are contrasted to each other. The 'men' in verses 1 and 2 are the same - human
in general. The sons of God are separate and distinct from men. In ancient
literature, the term 'sons of God' is used to refer to angelic beings, in
contrast to human beings. See Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7.
'Men' in verse Gen 6:1 OBVIOUSLY refers to mankind in general - men were multiplying... "and begat sons and
daughters" - the constant refrain in Gen 5.
If at all, the context of Gen 5 will demand
that men in Gen 6:1 must refer to the Sethite line, in continuation from Gen 5.
In which case the daughters of men in verse 2 must also necessarily be
referring to the daughters of the line of Sethites.
But I believe 'men' in both cases are used in
the general sense... i.e the ideas of holy men 'sethite line' and the heathen
daughters of men are all imagined and read into the text.
Gen 6:1f describes that in the normal course
of men multiplying themselves, something utterly perverse and extremely evil
happened. The 'son of God' intruded and exploited this natural process in men.
BUT why Satan instigated those sons of God to do such a thing is OBVIOUS, so
OBVIOUS that the simple cannot see it. Satan is too subtle for them.
THINK a little... Satan has a terrifying
threat over his head... and he had been actively scheming how to neutralize and
nullify that threat since day 1.
Sing F Lau
"That the sons of God saw the daughters
of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they
chose."
=======
Sons of God... daughters of men.
Remember that 'ben ha-elohim' is nowhere
used in the OT exactly as in Gen 6:2, except with reference to angels.
Concerning the daughters of men - HOW or WHY
or in WHAT WAY were they fair to the sons of God?
What does the word 'fair' mean in Hebrew?
Those who say that 'daughters of men' refers
to non-sethite women, instead of women of mankind in general, are they saying
that only such women were 'fair' - but fair in what sense?
Were the women (women of mankind in general
fair to the sons of God because they were appropriate, useful and suitable for
their purpose and plot?
Sing F Lau
"There were giants in the earth in those
days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of
men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of
old, men of renown."
=========
Gen 6:1 we read of a general statement of men
multiplying on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them. Sons are not mentioned. The attention was upon the daughters - of mankind in general.
It is SILLY to think the daughters refer to the heathen women.
No, daughters are mentioned, because they
became the object of attention to the 'sons of God.'
The 'sons of God' saw that the daughters of
men were FAIR - appropriate, useful, and suitable for their purpose. What was
that?
Gen 6:4 read "There were giants in the earth
in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the
daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men
which were of old, men of renown."
Who bear children to who? The daughters of
men bear children to the 'sons of God'. Where they normal offspring? It is very
evidence that the offspring between the 'sons of God' and the daughters of men
were MONSTROUS - mighty men of renown for their perversity and wickedness and
depravity that completely corrupted the whole world.
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