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| Whom... whom... whom - exact same number! "...whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." |
Romans 8:29-30
"For whom he
did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did
predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
This is an often-quoted
passage that is often gravely misunderstood.
What is the call? What is involved in that call?
Why is there no
mention of regeneration?
Give them a
thought...
-------
Sing
Someone esteeming
herself a scholar blurted these words:
"Do you
honestly think that an omniscient (knowing all things) God didn't foreknow
[every man]?? So what does foreknow mean? It means to know beforehand or to
have a knowledge of things which are to be, right? "
No wonder the minds
of so many believers are so messed up!
The disease of -sound-byteitis is very widespread!
[Someone suggested that the call is synonymous as regeneration... but has deleted his all his comments]
Sing
Let's say it is, would
that make regeneration to precede, whether logically and/or chronologically,
justification mentioned in the text?
Let's say it is, then what justification is preceded by regeneration?
Is that the same
justification spoken of in the text?
If you see regeneration as preceding the justification, then you would understand justification in a way consistent with that understanding. So I am just inquiring whether that is true.
There is only one
justification that follows regeneration.
But is that
justification the one spoken of in the text?
The justification spoken of in the text follows the call, and it is a justification that is true of absolutely every single elect.
What is the call? What is involved in that call?
God calls, and He
calls a man who is in his native state of sin and death. He calls such a man.
And He calls such a man OUT OF his native state of sin and death, and INTO the
state of grace and salvation. That's what this divine calling does.
But what is involved
in calling a man out of his native state of sin and death into that state of
grace and salvation?
What are necessary
to call a man a man out of his native state of sin and death into that state of
grace and salvation?
I suggest that these
must take place: in that order and number:
- his condemnation
must be dealt with.
- his death must be
dealt with.
- his alienation
must be dealt with.
Condemnation [of
death] is dealt with by justification, even the justification of life, Roman
5:18.
Death is dealt with
by regeneration, which is a logical corollary of justification because
justification is the justification of life. For that reason regeneration is not
stated. It is understood.
The imputation of
righteousness necessitates life.
The imputation of
sins brought death.
Alienation is dealt
with by adoption into the family of God. Adoption is a necessary corollary of
regeneration. For that reason, it is not stated; it is understood.
Since justification
is justification OF LIFE, justification includes and embraces within it
regeneration and adoption.
A man that is
justified by the free grace of God in time is a man PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY
fitted for eternal glory.
And that's exactly what the text declares. Nothing else is needed.
Bill Taylor
Amen and AMEN,
Brother Sing!
Dan England
It is dealt with by
Christ's death. I hear that, and believe it, and am saved.
Sing
Dan, I hear what you
are saying loud and clear: your salvation is the result of your hearing and
believing Christ's death. Your hearing and believing is needed for your
salvation. I don't find such in
Romans 8:29-30.
So many think the call is the gospel call, and the justification is that practical justification by faith.
That would necessarily imply that EVERY SINGLE elect will hear the gospel and believe... because the passage is speaking about what is true of every single elect, AS MANY AS are foreknown and predestinated!
Dan England
Those two verses
means nothing to anyone until they hear, believe and receive the Holy Spirit in
them. Then that eternity past, present and future it speaks of in Romans
8:29-30 belongs to everyone who, as Paul in Ephesians says, hears the gospel, believes the gospel
and is sealed "in Him" with the Holy Spirit of promise. Ephesians
1:13-14
Sing
The old school
baptists stated their belief like this:
1689.10.1-2
"Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed
and accepted time, effectually to call,(1) by His Word and Spirit, out of that
state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by
Jesus Christ...This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone,
not from anything at all forseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the
creature,(7) being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses,
until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;(😎 he is thereby enabled to answer this call,
and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power
than that which raised up Christ from the dead.(9) "
This effectual call
to the state of grace and salvation requires JUSTIFICATION, REGENERATION and
ADOPTION.
Please note the
water-tight biblical logic in their thinking
1689.11.1
"Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth....."
1689.12.1 "All
those that are justified, God vouchsafed, in and for the sake of His only Son
Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption..."
The grace of
adoption most surely presupposes prior regeneration.
1689.13.1 "They
who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new
heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and
resurrection, are also farther sanctified, really and personally..."
Now regeneration is
mentioned in passing. 'Farther sanctification' presupposed the definitive
once-for-all sanctification in the effectual call, i.e. separated them from
their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
Sing
I am leaving for the
capital city for a meeting this evening.
So, enjoy the discussion
if you are around. Will be away for the next 30 hours.
Frank Thomas
Amen- There are
seven sovereign acts of God in that verse. Sounds like a good sermon for next
Lord's day
Sing
Dan, you wear
colored glasses... you manage to find preaching, hearing and believing the
gospel in Romans 8:29-30.
You just hate the
monergism and absolute sovereignty of God in granting eternal salvation to His
elect, don't you?
You must insist upon
man's activities in his eternal salvation, MUSTN'T you! You are just adding
things to Scriptures that I don't find in Romans 8:29-30.
Can't you read:
"whom he justified, them he also glorified"?
Preaching, hearing
and believing the gospel have their proper place... but they play NO role
whatsoever in the eternal salvation of God's elect.
They are needed for
the well-being of God's children in their brief time here on earth.
Dan England
Well, that's your
opinion, Sing. God does nothing against a person's will, no matter how you try to
make it so!
Sing
If God does not act
against your rebellious will and hatred and enmity against Him while in your
native state of sin and enmity against him, you will still be in your rebellion
and enmity against him!
Did God ask and
inquire a man dead in trespasses and sins, whether he would allow God to give
him life?
Did Jesus inquire
and ask Lazarus in the tomb whether it is agreeable to him to raise him from
the dead!
Wake up from your
dream my friend.
Robin Walenceus
Not that anyone
wants to hear my two cents worth, but here it goes. Dead men are DEAD! They
can't "respond to a call" because they are DEAD. They can't make a
decision because they are DEAD. That word dead just keeps blaring loud in my
ears. It is the only point upon which I could begin to believe what is clearly
stated in the scripture after much reading and pondering; God is sovereign and
omnipotent. If His desire is to make me a little automaton that brings Him
pleasure, then I should be able to worship Him for His goodness and mercy in
making me that. I don' think that is what we are created to be. If we want a
part in our own salvation, then the wicked hands of sin can contribute to the
perfect work of redemption.
His plan and his
order of redemption over perfection doesn't make sense either; not to my finite
and fallen brain.
For now we see
through a glass darkly, but then face to face....can't wait.
Mac Goddard
Sing, in my humble
opinion (really, it is not so humble!), you are correct, especially in your
conclusion that if God does not act against our rebellious will and hatred and
enmity against Him, while in our native state of sin and enmity against him, we
will continue in our rebellion and enmity against him! To be sure, the eternal
salvation of God's elect has altogether to do with what He has done, and
nothing to do with what we do! By the way, every one of God's elect will be
eternally saved.
Sing
"By the way,
every one of God's elect will be eternally saved."
----
Amen and Amen, and
God acted, unilaterally and sovereign, based on the finished work of Jesus
Christ, to bring each one dead in trespasses and sins, unto eternal life in
time, and perfectly fitted them for glorification.
Sing
"Not that
anyone wants to hear my two cents worth, but here it goes. Dead men are DEAD!
They can't "respond to a call" because they are DEAD. They can't make
a decision because they are DEAD."
====
Amen and amen.
Deadness speaks of total inability. Literally that is not as not as someone who
is spiritually dead but who is in ACTIVE enmity and rebellion against God in
his heart and mind.
Imagining God having
to get the consent of such rebellious enemies before He can do them spiritual
good!
It would be easier
to get the leopard to change their spots!
Robin Walenceus
Amen to that, my
brother. I am grateful that my salvation is not dependent upon my fallen
ability to recognise a good thing when I see it.
Mac Goddard
Right on, as we say
here in Georgia. Spot on, would work in the UK! Maybe just plain old Amen!
suffices.
