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| Romans 9:13 KJT As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. How did God hate Esau? By choosing the younger Jacob over the firstborn Esau... when they were in the womb of their Mother. This has nothing to do with their election to eternal salvation! |
Dear Brethren,
A Brother asked a question, one which I think, may have
great implications in rightly dividing the word of truth. The question stirs this question:
Is the divine distinction between Sarah and Hagar, Isaac and
Ishmael, and Jacob and Esau relative to the eternal salvation or the temporal
salvation?
I will really appreciate some thoughts.
Thanks.
Ante Zivkovic
I think it is eternal salvation. The promises are to the
Seed not seeds (Isaac and Ishmael), and God hated Esau.
Sing F Lau
In what sense did God hate Esau and love Jacob?
Did God hate Esau by not electing him unto eternal
salvation, or did God hate Esau by bypassing him, the older of the two, of
being in the genealogical line of God's redemptive purpose?
How do your points " The promises are to the Seed not
seeds (Isaac and Ishmael), and God hated Esau" demonstrate that eternal
salvation is involved. Please elaborate. I want to understand.
Ante Zivkovic
Lol, i have no idea. I said I think, but the way I
understand ROM 9 is that election was before anyone did anything yet and then
Paul ties it to the fact that God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy.
Sure, election in ROM 9 could be temporal, but the context seems eternal to me.
Anecito Mesano
Isaac was the type of spiritual reality. There was no chance
that Isaac will be born. Jacob had a regenerated spirit a works of the Holy
Spirit.
Adam Wells
Couldn't we say that all who are saved temporarily are also
saved eternally?
Dannie Loy
Sarah = Free woman
Hagar = Bond woman
Isaac = By Promise of God
Ishmael = By work of man
Jacob = Love of God
Esau = Hate by God
All of these illustrate a point in the Eternal Salvation of
God. We were in bondage to sin by nature. We are made free by the work of
Christ. Our being eternally free from sin is based upon the promise of God and
not the work of man. God placed His love on the one that he chose to love. It
was not based on their good or evil, but based on God's choice. All man are
sinners with no good in them by nature for "all have sinned". So you
can't point to the evil as reason God did not love one, for God hates all sin.
"There is none that doeth good, no not one," so that eliminates any
good as a reason God loved one and not the other.
God is sovereign in His choice of those He so loved. By
promise, He devised means to establish their freedom by sending His Son to pay
their sin debt. They are set at liberty and no longer in bondage to sin. All
because of God's Love.
Sing F Lau
Election unto eternal salvation was executed before the
foundation of the world.
The election of the YOUNGER Jacob over against the OLDER
Esau was in time, and with respect to who will carry on the genealogical line
leading to the promised seed!
Charles Page
I believe all the above-mentioned are the elect and have
eternal salvation, and some of them experienced temporal/timely salvation.
Sing F Lau
Please explain, Charles.
Sing F Lau
Isn't Romans 9-11 Paul's explanation of the MYSTERY why some
children of God among the Jews were unbelieving because they were not chosen to
gospel salvation... Isn't that the CONTEXT in which the election of Jacob over
Esau was mentioned?
Good night...it's past midnight here, 12.11am
I won't be around till Saturday evening.
Tomorrow late morning I leave for KL... have meeting with
the saints there. At midnight I take a coach from KL down to Singapore. Have
meeting with the saints there at 10am. I will catch a flight back to Penang
late in the afternoon.
If you have heart for the Lord's work here, offer up a
prayer on my behalf.
Thank you in advance.
Charles Page
Many are called, few are chosen? The Bible seems consistent
with the fact that the unbelieving Children of God perish: Hagar, Ishmael,
Esau...Cain, Baalam and Core
Jesus said the unbelieving will perish and not have eternal
life.
Marty-Sandy Smith
I think the lessons of Romans 9 are eternal. But suppose the
opposite: suppose they were temporal. Would not Romans 9:15-16 then drive us to
the conclusion that temporal deliverance was unconditional? Then we would face
a large contradiction with the many scriptures which teach conditions of belief
and obedience for many aspects of temporal salvation.
Charles Page
Marty, what if I suggest that Pharoah was elect and has
eternal salvation.
Marty-Sandy Smith
I could neither prove nor disprove your suggestion - I don't
know! I assume you mean the Pharaoh who faced Moses. I could lean toward
non-elect, since Pharoah says he knows not the Lord, nor will he obey the word
of the Lord. I could lean toward elect, since he asks for Moses's blessing in
Exodus 12:32. But I don't know.
Charles Page
God said, "I have raised thee up that I might show my
power in thee." What happens when God raises the unregenerate to show his
power? Would he raise the non-elect unregenerate to show his power?
Marty-Sandy Smith
Who knows? He has suffered Satan to retain power for many
ages.
Charles Page
He didn't raise up Satan to show His power (I bet the
Calvinists believe that), however he suffered the usurpation of power by Satan.
Not quite the same with Pharaoh!
Marty-Sandy Smith
In Romans chapters 9 and 10, the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to
write about the condition of widespread unbelief among ethnic Israelites. Paul
shows that not all descendants of Abraham or Isaac were chosen of God, and uses
those examples to support the fact that not all natural descendants of Israel
are chosen of God. Later, at the end of chapter 9 and in chapter 10, he shows
that many Gentiles are chosen of God, and thus members of "the Israel of
God".
Charles Page
called or chosen?
Marty-Sandy Smith
I think God hated Esau in the same sense we are to hate
father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters as Jesus
Christ taught in Luke 14:25-26.
Before the children were born, God knew that both would be
sinners, and both would deserve destruction at His hands. But He, in love,
chose Jacob before the foundation of the world, and did not choose Esau.
Justice is expected; grace is amazing.
Before it ever comes to a choice between Jesus Christ or
father, mother, wife, children, brethren, sisters, a true disciple needs to
have chosen Jesus Christ in advance. Perhaps it will never come to such a
choice, but that selection needs to be made in advance of the event. That is
the necessary hate.
Charles Page
I think God hated Esau in the same sense we are to hate
father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters as Jesus
Christ taught in Luke 14:25-26. Lawd ha murcy, Marty!
This is the very reason I should avoid conversations with
PBs on Sing's thread. You and elder Hulan (unfortunately most PB elders) can
say the most senseless things.
If I follow up on that statement I will arouse the anger of
the "true vine" and perhaps endanger my temporal salvation which
heretofore I cherish!
Marty-Sandy Smith
OK
Ante Zivkovic
But Marty has a point about ROM 9:15-16. It does then make
temporal salvation unconditional??!! Other than that, Rom 9 is THE text on
unconditional election. Also, v 13, Paul applies it personally even though Malachi applies it nationally.
Charles Page
Temporal salvation is conditional, and as I read over and
over Romans 9:15-16 it is God in relation to our temporal salvation.
In our relationship as His children, he shows mercy and
compassion to whom he chooses to show mercy and compassion.
Charles Page
Here is an interesting post from another discussion group
that may pertain to the discussion of Jacob and Easu.
John XXXXXXXX
God's "Hatred" of Esau: To "Love Less"?
Arminians often argue that while the scripture declares God
"hated" Esau, it is merely a figure of speech, hyperbole, denoting a
comparative condition to His "favour/love" of Jacob. They say that it
is similar to Jesus' word "If any come after me and does not HATE his
father, mother, wife, brother, sister, yes even his own life, he cannot be My
disciple" (Lk 14:26). Since Jesus' command is that we love one another,
not hate our relatives, this is a hyperbolic expression on His part, denoting
the idea of "loves LESS".
It is the same with God's "hatred" of Esau, they
say.
O.k. Let's assume for a moment they are correct, and by
"hate" God "really meant" He loved Esau LESS than Jacob.
Q. HOW did God express HIS "hatred" of Esau?
A. God Himself answers and illustrates the comparative
differences between HIS love of Jacob and hatred of Esau. We read God's words:
“I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’
“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I
have loved Jacob, 3but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country
into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”
Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild
the ruins.”
But this is what the Lord Almighty says: “They may build,
but I will DEMOLISH. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people ALWAYS under
the wrath of the Lord." (Mal 1:2-4).
God said "I HATED Esau", "I turned his hill
country into a WASTELAND", "I left his inheritance to desert
jackals"
Edom (Esau's descendants) said "We will rebuild"!
GOD said "I will DEMOLISH"...adding to the clincher, "THEY (Esau's
descendants) will be called a people ALWAYS under the WRATH of the Lord"!
Loves "less"? O.K. ...and scary stuff indeed!
Arminians often FAIL to cite the entire
reference....understandable in the light of what it says.
...and Paul cites this very passage in Romans 9 while
teaching NEW TESTAMENT doctrine about God's SOVEREIGNTY in showing and
exercising His mercy.
May God give light! (Lk 24: 45)
Sing F Lau
How do we hate those we love? By choosing Christ over them.
This sounds simple, but it's hard and costly. Do you love Christ enough to do it? Will you be His disciple? Hear what He says.
Luke 14:26 KJT
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother,
and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also,
he cannot be my disciple.
How do you hate them? By choosing Christ over them.
John 12:25 KJT
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth
his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
How do we hate our own life in this world? By choosing Christ over our own as long as He lends us breath.
Hebrews 1:9 KJT
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore
God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy
fellows.
How did Jesus hate iniquity? By choosing (loving) righteousness over iniquity
Romans 9:13 KJT
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
How did God hate Esau?
By choosing the younger Jacob over the firstborn Esau.
Is our love for Christ lively enough for us to hate those we love dearly?
Luke 14:26 KJT
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother,
and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also,
he cannot be my disciple.
