 |
What
do you think of Mr. Spurgeon's statement? |
Sing
What
do you think of Mr. Spurgeon's statement?
Thanks.
DS
SPURGEON:
There are no crown-wearers in heaven who were not cross-bearers here below.
DS:
If Spurge is correct, then every imbecile and every infant dying in infancy is
burning in hell. This notion is evidently false by many bible proofs
1.
Rachels’ Children (Jeremiah 31:15-17, Matthew 2:16-18)
2.
Abijah (I Kings 14:13)
3.
David’s son with Bathsheba (II Samuel 12:23)
DS:
This is a good example of how Spurgeon's zealous rhetoric wanders outside the
bounds of sound theology. It finds much reception among those with a zeal that
is not according to knowledge in the form of “grace” that is not according to
grace.
SUMMARY
STATEMENT: Jesus instructed his followers to “take up their cross” and follow
him.
DS:
That is true (Matthew 16:24). It is also true that Jesus is speaking about the
cost of discipleship, not how to obtain eternal salvation. To suggest the
latter is to accuse Jesus of teaching eternal salvation by works. This is
contrary to the bible’s teaching that salvation, “is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” (Romans 9:16), is “not
of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
(John 1:13), and “Not by works of righteousness which we have done” (Titus
3:5). Confounding eternal salvation (sonship) and personal obedience
(discipleship) is an error that is as enormous as it is common in our time. It
is wrong division. Many sheep are misled by it.
SUMMARY
STATEMENT: This implies a willingness to endure hardship, sacrifice, and even
persecution for the sake of their faith.
DS:
That men OUGHT to do this is certain. However, men are not eternally saved because
they have done as they OUGHT. Men are eternally saved in spite of the fact they
have not done as they OUGHT. They’re saved by grace. There will be many in
heaven who did not endure as they ought, did not sacrifice as they ought, and
did not withstand persecution as they ought while here below. I suspect that
describes the lot. Heaven will be populated solely on the basis of the imputed
righteousness of the One who did perfectly as he OUGHT in every circumstance.
DS:
Spurgeon’s quote is a good example of why I rarely quote him. He said some
clever things, but he spouted a lot of nonsense as well as this quote
demonstrates. Good doctrine is not the “unique baby” of some particular
minister such that we must quote that particular minister to have access to the
truth. Where Spurgeon is concerned, I’m willing to throw out both baby and
bathwater, knowing full well that the baby can be found in the care of better
parents.
DS:
A second cautionary note about Spurgeon (and any who possess similar rhetorical
skills), a clever phrase is often received for its cleverness, rather than
assessed on its merits. This too is a source of error.
Ron
DS. I guess it is good that I'm not very clever then! 😜
Mark
Amen!
Reggie
DS, excellent! My thoughts exactly!
Linda
DS, well said.
Sing
DS:
If Spurgeon is correct, then every imbecile and every infant dying in infancy is
burning in hell. This notion is evidently false by many bible proofs
-----------
That
was the first thought that came to mind. Then I thought, Mr Spurgeon may
retort, "Nay, nay, nay; such are in heaven, just crownless since they were
not cross- bearers on earth.
Does
his statement necessarily imply that the non cross-bearers shall not be found
in heaven, or such shall be in heaven but not crown wearers?
DS
Sing - That is an interpretation that I did not consider, but I believe it is
one that might be suggested by some. The crownless Christians. It seems
difficult to reconcile with the idea of being a joint heir with Christ (Romans
8:17) who shall give us all things (Romans 8:32). Does that mean "joint
heir except for the crown" and "all things but no crown"?
Reggie
Well,
the Bible does say...
On
a hill far away stood an old rugged cross
The
emblem of suffering and shame
And
I love that old cross where the dearest and best
For
a world of lost sinners was slain
So
I'll cherish the old rugged cross (rugged cross)
Till
my trophies at last I lay down
I
will cling to the old rugged cross
And
exchange it some day for a crown
To
the old rugged cross I will ever be true
It's
shame and reproach gladly bear
Then
he'll call me some day to my home far away
Where
his glory forever I'll share
And
I'll cherish the old rugged cross (rugged cross)
Till
my trophies at last I lay down
And
I will cling to the old rugged cross
And
exchange it some day for a crown
I
will cling to the old rugged cross
And
exchange it some day for a crown
Aaron
I
remember in school how we used to have different problems we would have to
solve in math, or arithmetic as some call it. Some of those problems we used to
have to work we also had to determine if we had enough info given to be able to
get the answer to the question or tell if we didn’t have enough info to get an
answer. This is kinda like that, there’s not enough info given in this to give
an accurate answer without determining with more explaining what the answer
would be. There are different answers to this based on how one views the
statement made. Just like with this statement there’s not enough info given to
get what someone might call the right or wrong answer. Could be called a loaded
statement without further explanation.
Sing
Aaron, What additional information do you have in mind?
What
is intended by the crown?
Will
there be any "crown-less" redeemed in heaven?
Is every redeemed a cross-bearer?
Aaron
Sing, that was my point. His statement leaves unanswered questions. We are
admonished to bear our cross and thus fulfill our roll as a disciple of Christ
on earth. Not all Gods redeemed will bear their cross, if by their cross it is
meant our service to God and not a means for wearing said crown in eternity. It
could be implied by the statement made by Spurgeon that those who wear a crown
in eternity do so because they bore their cross here on earth. This is simply
not true. We wear crowns in heaven, that aren’t ours by the way they are given
to us by the work of our Savior Jesus Christ, and we cast them at his feet when
we return home meaning we cast honor and glory to him for what he did and not
what we did or do. There is no place that I can recall in scripture that says
we will glorify our efforts that were performed while on earth when we get to
heaven. The statement made by spurgeon definitely requires clarification.
Reggie
It's
cliche'. See #3 definition..
noun: cli·ché | \ klē-ˈshā , ˈklē-ˌshā, kli-ˈshā \
variants:
or less commonly cliche
Definition
1 :
a trite phrase or expression
also
: the idea expressed by it
2 :
a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation
(3
: something that has become overly familiar or commonplace)
It's
an idea by contrast...
“And
they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
Revelation 12:11 KJV
So... If
they did love their lives unto the end, they would not have a crown to cast at
His feet.
“the
four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship
him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne,
saying,”
Revelation 4:10 KJV
But,
as you can see, the only ones who are mentioned to having crowns are the 24
elders...
So,
it's kinda a leap to say we earn our crown.. it's Arminianism. Making the Bible
about you... rather than the actual people who are mentioned in the scriptures.
Joe
Brother
Sing, the quote doesn’t harmonize well with John’s record.
Revelation
4:10-11 (KJV)
10
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and
worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the
throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and
power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were
created.
It is my understanding of Scripture that heaven shall be all about our praising God for our redemption, not about wearing personal crowns.
Sing
Joe, I don't know what crown Mr Spurgeon meant.
The
NT speaks of the crown of righteousness, the crown of glory, and the crown of
life. Which crown is conditioned upon cross- bearing?
Aaron
Sing, the way that scriptures reads says that the cross we bear is what
efforts we perform here on earth in regards to showing honor and glory, praise
and thanks to our savior for his grace bestowed upon dead alien sinners.
Knowing that scriptures speak plainly about our spiritual life having nothing
to do with our efforts and all about the work finished by the resurrected and
glorified Christ tells us that any cross to be borne is not a means to have a
crown in eternity. If a crown in eternity is had based on any of our efforts
here in this sin cursed land then Christ did not finish the work the Lord sent
him to accomplish, meaning he then didn’t accomplish the work he was sent to finish.
Given surgeons wording on the matter and him being a man therefore not having
final authority in what he says, the word of God has the final authority, we
have to be careful we don’t try to interpret scriptures by what Spurgeon has
said but rather interpret what Spurgeon has said with scriptures. This is why I
said his statement needs clarification. All who have a crown in heaven do so be
the work of their savior Jesus Christ, not by their cooperation in bearing
cross(s) here on earth. That said, someone who bears their cross here on earth
have assurance that they are one of Gods. This does not apply to wolves in
sheep’s clothing. I don’t know that they could be said to bear a cross for
their fruits, what comes from their works, won’t manifest as one bearing a
cross to those who are truly bearing their cross. Yet, it’s not for us to
determine if one will have a crown in heaven or not based on any amount of
cross bearing. We would also have to determine how much cross bearing is
required to have the crown in heaven. We also won’t be looking to see who bore
their cross on earth nor will we be seeing who did and did not bear their cross
on earth when we are in heaven. It’s not a competition. It’s the completed work
of Jesus Christ that we will be concerned with when we live in eternity and
giving all praise honor and glory to him for the crown he has given us.
Don
Thank
you for pointing out this errant teaching!
