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"As a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."
Sheep and goats belong to one flock of the shepherd;
that's the most obvious, plain and common sense.
Some insist that the goats are not part of the flock!
Then why does the shepherd need to separate them?
Of course, some jokers think the wild GOATS strayed into the flock
and got mixed up with the flock of sheep that belongs to Christ;
What an insolent insult against Christ as the Shepherd!
Laban had flocks made up of sheep and goats (and cattle). Gen 30:31 |
October
20, 2014
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10203026549440153
It
is common and popular to see the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-46) as representing
the elect and non-elect, respectively.
Let me suggest these for your consideration:
1.
All three parables in Mt 25 are all about the same theme...
-
the wise and foolish virgins of the One Bridegroom
-
the faithful and unfaithful servants of the One Master
-
the sheep and goats of the One Shepherd
Does this suggestion help to direct your thought on the sheep and the goats a bit?
"Jesus
saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea,
Lord. Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto
the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth
forth out of his treasure things new and old." Matthew 13…
============
21
Comments
eSun
Poultry
farmers always have this particular problem. Rats or rodents are uninvited
guests in the barns or poultry houses. They, not only bite or nibble the chicks
when these poultry are young but they continue unashamedly steal from the
feeders. These rodents eat from the same feeders, drink from the same drinkers
and take shelters in the barns. The question is: are they owned by the good
husbandry man? Absolutely no! As a simpleton farmer, I cannot think beyond this
line. I raised my chickens since they are chicks and these belong to
me...surely I cannot and do not want to have ownership for rats and rodents!
Sing
F Lau
LOL...
if I'm a shepherd, I would most certainly love the problem of having goats
joining my flock of sheep... if there are such goats around to do that!
Chickens and rats/rodents are poor comparisons.
Maybe chickens and turkeys would be a comparable comparison with sheep and goats. If I were a poultry farmer, I would love to see uninvited guests of turkeys joining my chickens! I fatt datt loh! <lol>
In real life in the 1st century, shepherds keeping sheep and goats in their flock was normal and common!
In the parable, the Lord Jesus uses the sheep to represent those who are believing and minister to His people, and the goats those that are unbelieving, and thus failing to minister to His people.
Sheep and goats are in the same contrast between the wise and the foolish virgins, and the faithful and unfaithful servants. This is plain and obvious.
eSun
Just
wonder if Judas Iscariot was a goat when he decided to betray the Lord?
Sing
F Lau
Judas'
betrayal of the Lord Jesus Christ is wicked and despicable indeed.
While
many believe Judas' act to be the most despicable, I don't. I fear there are so
many pastors and teachers who are FAR WORSE than Judas in their betrayal of Jesus
Christ. Judas sold Jesus Christ for 30 pieces of silver because he was
disillusioned and disappointed that Jesus was not going to be a political
messiah to set up a political kingdom, and have Judas himself be the Finance
Minister!
Others sell Him for filthy lucre of a far greater amount for preaching their own lies and fables, thus betraying their Lord in a far worse sense.
Judas' betrayal is far less serious, comparatively. He had too little light. There are many Judas in Christ's kingdom!!!
Charles
Page
Paul
was the chief of sinners!
Charles
Page
Judas
can't hold a candle to Paul!!!
Sing
F Lau
Judas
did hold the money bag! <lol>
eSun
So
was Judas Iscariot a goat whilst he lived? Is he found amongst the elders
encircled the great & mighty throne of God praising Him?
eSun
If
there is an answer to the above then we can expect the same destiny for those
earlier described as filthy pastors and teachers.
[They are not filthy pastors and teachers, they are polished pastors and teachers who betrayed Christ because of their love for filthy lucre! How words are so easily twisted by woolliness. It's frightening indeed! sing]
Charles
Page
the
question is, was Judas an elect? If he is of the elect He will be in Heaven!
Charles
Page
Being
a goat or sheep has nothing to do with the election.
[AMEN. It has to do with discipleship among Christ's flock. when sincere people start with sheep/elect-goats/nonelect presupposition, they have gone off tangent from the start. sing]
Sing
F Lau
Good
questions; and they always help towards getting closer to the truth. Questions
that can expose the inconsistencies and contradictions in an interpretation
will save us from errors.
Your question "So was Judas Iscariot a goat whilst he lived?" turned my mind to what Apostle Paul so solemnly declared in his epistle to the Galatians... --- "8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
I'm not aware if Apostle Paul was as solemn as this in another matter. Preaching another gospel other than that which has been preached by the Apostle Paul is a betrayal of Jesus Christ FAR WORSE than the despicable betrayal committed by Judas Iscariot!
Judas' love and hope for an earthly messianic kingdom most certainly caused him to behave like a goat - unbelieving in the kingdom of heaven, and thus failing to minister to those who belong to it. Instead, in his misguided zeal, he betrayed the King of the kingdom of heaven!
eSun
Two
questions:
Question
1. Beg my ignorance, where is the text specifically mentioning Judas Iscariot
was disillusioned that there was no earthly messianic kingdom of which he
desired to be a finance minister of this earthly kingdom?
Question
2: According to your understanding goats are elected people of God who lived
miserably with much disbelief and when they repented whilst still living then
they become sheep. Apostle Peter was a goat when he denied the Lord thrice but
later became a sheep. Right? But he repented and the Lord reinstated him
because he was a chosen people of God. As we know our earthly body still have
the remnant of sins; and I fear to depart from this world as a believing goat.
I beg to God to be merciful so that I breathe my last breath as an elected sheep
and not as an elected goat. But my sinful dwelling self is at war daily. How?
Can anyone help me to be an assured elected sheep of Christ rather than an
elected goat? But then James 2:14-26 stated clearly in gist faith without work
is dead faith. So then do goats have good works to illustrate faith? If these
goats already have works to shine forth faith in the Lord Jesus Christ then why
call these creatures as goats? They are sheep!!
Sing
F Lau
"...
where is the text specifically mentioning Judas Iscariot was disillusioned that
there was no earthly messianic kingdom of which he desired to be a finance
minister of this earthly kingdom?"
There is much evidence that the greater part of the Jewish people was looking forward to an earthly messianic kingdom... and this carnal expectation was very alive with the apostles for a long time. Their minds were still on it when they asked, "When they, therefore, were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" It was an error that took a long time to dislodge from their mind.
In
Matthew 20 - KJT
20
¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping
him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21
And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my
two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy
kingdom.
She too was expecting an earthly kingdom to be established by Jesus the Messiah, and wanted her sons to have positions of great power and honour in the earthly kingdom.
In Luke 24 we hear the words of two very downcast and disillusioned disciples... for their trust in an earthly theocratic kingdom was completely crushed and busted by the events that had happened...
20
And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to
death, and have crucified him.
21
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and
beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
That's the general background on the popular expectation of an earthly kingdom to be established by the promised Messiah!
It was very likely that the truth of the spiritual nature of the messianic kingdom Christ has established, and its implications, were early understood and grasped by Judas. Such a Messiah and the messianic kingdom were repugnant and contrary to all his expectations, and benefits.
Judas was one of the 12, and was the one who had the money bag (Joh 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein) - naturally he would think of himself as the finance minister in the earthly messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ.
And
the betrayal requires a motive... maybe others can offer a more credible
motive!
I
don't know whether this answers your question.
Sing
F Lau
I
gather that the gist of Q2 lies in this sentence... "Can anyone help me to
be an assured elected sheep of Christ rather than an elected goat?"
God elected, and save a people through His Son Jesus Christ alone, thus fitting them for eternal glory. [This is eternal salvation by the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, freely applied to each elect at God's own appointed and approved time; fitting each one for eternal glory.]
1
Pet 1:
3 ¶
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his
abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of
Jesus Christ from the dead,
4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away,
reserved in heaven for you,
5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be
revealed in the last time.
We shall enter that inheritance at the general resurrection to glory.
God elected a people... not sheep and goats. Sheep and goats are pictures used in the parable to describe believing obedient and the unbelieving disobedient among His redeemed people.
Sheep don't turn into goats, and goats don't turn into sheep - but God's children can most certainly behave like sheep, and goats... as presented to us in Mt 25.
Apostle Peter gave an excellent answer to your inquiry: "give all diligence to make your calling and election sure..."
2
Pet 1
5 ¶
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue
knowledge;
6
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience
godliness;
7
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither
be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath
forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and
election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting
kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
There
are likely other things in Q2 that I have not answered.
Sing
F Lau
got
to go... Wed evening Bible study at 8pm.
eSun
As
you have said God's children do not turn into goats or sheep but rather their
behaviour viz a viz their obedience to Christ. In the case of Judas Iscariot
can you conclude Judas was an elect with a 'goatly' demeanour when he turned
against the Lord? Today despite being a 'goatly' elect, Judas Iscariot is in
heaven with our sovereign God! Can you be certain Judas Iscariot's resting
place? So also the many misguided teachers and pastors who taught wrongly. They
are wrong doctrinally but we cannot judge them for at the present moment of
time as they are 'goatly' but surely in due time they shall become 'sheeply'.
Many of us in the past behaved 'goatly' but God opened our eyes and we become
as 'sheeply' and we are certain our rest is in heaven. So generally speaking
let no one speak ill anyone who 'sin' by way action (teaching wrong doctrine)
or practice. We cannot for sure by the reasoning speak against our God's
elects, right?
[A child of God DOES NOT revert back and forth as "sheep-goat...sheep-goat" throughout his life. They are terms describing his overall life.]
Sing
F Lau
Rev
5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne
and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times
ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing." Amen!
We are given a wonderful glimpse of the glorious heaven prepared for us!
Sing
F Lau
You
have gone a lot further. I'm only dealing with the text in Mt 25:31-46 where
the sheep and goats are mentioned.
I have no interest to speak ill of anyone, or desiring to decide who are sheep and goats among the Lord's flock. I sincerely pray that all are like the people represented by the sheep in Mt 25:31-46! I do want to be numbered and counted among such, I sure do!
I do however want to rightly divide the word of truth in that passage, and I am convinced the goats represent NOT the non-elect (as is so popularly understood) but the unbelieving elect; and were judged, like the foolish virgins, and the unfaithful servants.
You inquired about Judas... and the hideousness of his act of betraying his Lord, and I suggested that given the little light that he had, his betrayal is relatively minor compared to the betrayal committed by others who had so much light, with the complete Scriptures in their hand.
eSun
However,
I have yet to be guided to whether Judas Iscariot was an elected goat and now
worshipping God in the Celestial City or not. Wonder aloud - I know where is
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I know where is Paul our dear brother. However, can I
lovingly call Judas Iscariot a dear brother though he was 'goat'? Is he also
numbered with the above-mentioned saints in Heaven?
[If you can accept the Bible's teaching on the intermediate state - the temporal state between death and resurrection - your most profound and difficult (I suspect they are all rhetorical) questions are solved. Judas Iscariot, though an elect redeemed by Christ, is in the temporal intermediate state of hell, awaiting his resurrection to glory at the return of Christ. ]
Sing
F Lau
Understanding
the sheep and goats in Mt 25:31-46 as speaking of God's children among the Jews
who are believing and unbelieving in the Messiah the Lord Jesus Christ makes
me, I and myself to be sober in all things and walk circumspectly.
Since you are interested in Judas Iscariot's case, I will answer your questions in light of my understanding of Mt 25:31-46.
Judas Iscariot is one of the elect of God. [This is an issue much debated... my understanding of free grace has made it less difficult for me to acknowledge that he is one among the elect of God, but unbelieving, like many among God's children! ] He wasn't an elected goat. The elect is NOT SPOKEN of in terms of goat. His unbelief in Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah caused him to be described as a goat.]
His unbelief and betrayal are no worse than those to whom Apostle Peter preached on the day of Pentecost and was converted...
"Ye
men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among
you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of
you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate
counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have
crucified and slain."
They by their wicked hands have crucified and slain Jesus Christ! Judas' betrayal is relatively minor compared with what Apostle Peter charged his hearers with. Judas was so filled with remorse for what he did... but people just write off his REPENTANCE as cheapskate remorse... "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, REPENTED himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders."
Believing Judas to be among the goat, he would be where Mt 25:31-46 tell us where goats are... UNTIL the day of resurrection, when he must be delivered up, be glorified, and enter the eternal inheritance that Christ, His and mine Redeemer had secured for him.
Keep
asking Brother. I like your questions!!!
