Things New and Old

John Gill and the Cause of God and Truth, Go Publications
By Dr George Ella.
Visit his website: http://evangelica.de/

Initially posted here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10201097774501985&set=a.10201097773861969

Someone said: 'Gill looks like he has indigestion here!'
I suggested: 'No, he was very displeased with Fuller's heresies!'

Hear a grand old baptist on justification... a snippet from his article on Justification in his massive Body of Divinity.

a. Justification is an act of God's grace, flowing from his sovereign good will and pleasure; the elect of God are said to be "justified by his grace"; and as if that expression was not strong enough to set forth the freeness of it, the word "freely" is added elsewhere; "Being justified freely by his grace" (Titus 3:7; Rom. 3:24). Justification is by many divines distinguished into active and passive. Active justification is the act of God; it is God that justifies. Passive justification is the act of God, terminating on the conscience of a believer, commonly called a transient act, passing upon an external object... I shall now treat... of the former; which is an act internal and eternal, taken up in the divine mind from eternity, and is an immanent, abiding one in it; it is... "a sentence conceived in the divine mind, by the decree of justifying."

Now, as before observed, as God's will to elect, is... the election of his people, so his will to justify them, is the justification of them; as it is an immanent act in God, it is an act of his grace towards them, is wholly without them, entirely resides in the divine mind, and lies in his estimating, accounting, and constituting them righteous, through the righteousness of his Son; and, as such, did not first commence in time, but from eternity. [That is what is meant by the term "eternal justification" - the justification that has been purposed and decreed by God in eternity for His elect. From this we have justification accomplished at the cross, justification applied at effectual calling, justification experienced at conversion, and justification consummated at resurrection. But so many do not understand what "eternal justification" mean, and rave and rant impudently because their sum total understanding of justification is justification experienced at conversion, i.e justification by their faith! - sing]

b. Justification does not begin to take place in time, or at believing, but is antecedent to any act of faith.
- Faith is not the cause, but an effect of justification; it is not the cause of it in any sense; it is not the moving cause, that is the free grace of God; "Being justified freely by his grace", (Rom. 3:24) nor the efficient cause of it; "It is God that justifies", (Rom. 8:33) nor the meritorious cause, as some express it; or the matter of it, that is the obedience and blood of Christ, (Rom. 5:9, 19) or the righteousness of Christ, consisting of his active and passive obedience; nor even the instrumental cause... it is not in any class of causes whatever; but it is the effect of justification...
- The reason why any are justified, is not because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith, is because they are justified...
- Faith is the evidence and manifestation of justification, and therefore justification must be before it...

Read the full article here... but gird up the loins of your mind first.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Doctrinal_Divinity/Book_2/book2_05.htm

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Line upon line, line upon line;
Each is truth defined, except to the blind!

A man's faith is not the cause of his justification in any sense...
- it is not the moving cause;
- nor the efficient cause of it;
- nor the meritorious cause, as some express it;
- nor even the instrumental cause.

Does it register? Faith is not in any class of causes whatsoever!
Can the matter be stated any plainer?

What is the explanation that so many of God's children don't understand or receive such plainly stated truth?

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

A brother commented:
"Justification was legally declared & thus applied to all the elect at redemption Rom. 8:33, vitally effected at regeneration, conscienciously realized & enjoyed as regenerated elect exercize their faith, Rom. 10, publicly recognized as believers obey James 2."

I responded:
Legally IMPUTED at the cross; and APPLIED personally (your prefer "vitally effected") at one's effectual calling.

Effectually calling a man out of his native state of sin and death requires the application of justification, and regeneration, and adoption - in that NUMBER, and LOGICAL order.

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Comments

Charles Page

Gill looks like he has indigestion here!

Sing

No, he was very displeased with Fuller's heresies!

Charles Page

true story!!

Sing

Satanic strategy: prejudice the minds of simple folks against a good man like John Gill, and keep them away from the opportunity to learn the truth of their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace!

The Banner of Truth (Edinburgh) is one of the worst culprits - vigorously pushing a new calvinism (aka fullerism). The Lord delivered me from its influence.

Dr George Ella, as a historian, did a great service to the truth of God by setting straight the facts about Gill and his ministry by pointing out the plain errors of all those who rewrite history to fit their Fullerism!

I ordered a whole carton of the above biography by Dr Ella when it first came out. I offered copies to the RBs whose minds have been poisoned... but they were toooo fearful to accept my offer... that they may read the true account of the man they have so maligned in complete ignorance!

Sing

Shibboleth will not do!

Whose faith in your shibboleth of "grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone"?

A man not justified by God is still a man in his state of sin and condemnation of death. Such a man is dead in trespasses and sins, therefore incapable of believing in order to be justified.

But you love shibboleth and religious jargon!

That's Satan strategy to keep folks like you in errors, leaving them happily harping the shibboleth!!!

Sing

The biblical doctrine of justification by the righteousness of Christ alone (the BASIS of justification), applied freely by the grace of God alone (the MANNER of justification) to an elect STILL dead in trespasses and sins has been, is, and will always be twisted by the deceived and deluded.

Without that biblical doctrine, a man is left with some hollow shibboleths and religious jargon! The devil is not worried with such! And Brett, you obviously love shibboleth!!!

Learn this basic truth first before going ranting further!

"The reason why any are justified, is not because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith, is because they are justified..."

Sing

If you have to hide under Augustine's underwear, you are too far from what the Bible says. So, don't waste time ranting <LOL>

Continue in your comfortable shibboleth!

Bill

Excellent! Thanks for posting this Brother Sing.

Sing

Allen, can you summarise in one brief paragraph what you want to say?

If you want to sell something, just state what the product is.

What do you think of Gill's words on justification? Thanks.

(Allen has deleted all his comments)

Sing

The only objective was to contact you and offer this Free material and I have accomplished that goal... May God bless you in His name...

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You could have accomplished your objective with 3-4 lines!!!

I sure hope the same wordiness is not in your commentary on the book of Revelation!!!

Thanks for your offer.

Charles Page

I am not aware of a list of people who are non-elect recorded in any book from before the foundation of the earth was laid. There seems to be one book and the names of the elect are recorded there. No other names are there.

Their deeds are not recorded in this book, just names. There are other journals recording deeds but not in any association with the one book!

There is certainly not a book listing the reprobates predestined to Hell!

The so called 5th point:

Perseverance or Preservation?

Neither!

"Most PBs do hold to the 5 points, but do not necessarily apply them in the same way the reformers did. For instance, we emphasize preservation of the saints, not perseverance of the saints" - a common PB perspective.

The Calvinists emphasize on the perseverance of the saints, i.e. the activity of saints continuing in a life of faith and holiness. That's the popular understanding of the 5th point by calvinists.

Thus, the Calvinists emphasize on the saints' activity of persevering in a life of faith and holiness, whereas the PBs emphasize on the activity of God preserving the saints.

I suggest [sic] that both the PBs, and the Calvinists are WRONG on the 5th point!

The original intent of the "Perseverance of the saints" is simply this: those effectually called out of their native state of sin and death into that STATE of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ REMAIN in that STATE. It is a statement declaring the immutable effect of the divine activity - the effectually called remain FOREVER in that state of grace and salvation.

It says nothing about the calvinists' fiction about saints' activity of persevering in a life of faith and holy living, NOR the fable of God's activity of having to preserve the effectually called! Both are fables, they are ditches on both sides of the one narrow 5th lane.

The 5th point simply states the IMMUTABLE EFFECT of the sovereign activity of God in effectually calling a man out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation; the called ones immutably remain in the state of grace and salvation. No further activity is needed for them to remain in that state of grace and salvation.

Joey

Those fictions are armininianism and calvinism.

As a PB, preservation of the saints means God's finished work (eternal salvation) for the saints.

Saint's are preserved because of God's finished work not by works of righteousness which we have done.

· Sing

· There is no arminiansim involved; so no necessary potshot, please.
And a divinely FINISHED work needs no further activity of preservation.

Since the effectually called immutably remains in that STATE of grace and salvation, what need of further activity of preserving?

· Linda

· So are u saying once saved always saved. What does PB's stand for please.

· Sing

· "is once saved always saved?" It is not in my vocabulary. Perhaps you can explain yourself. Thanks.
PBs ... Pristine Baptists, may be. Or Preservation Baptists, perhaps!

· Linda

· Acts 2:21 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved'
Rom 1:13
1Tim 2:4 'who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth'
1Titus 2:11 'for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men'
Eph 2:8 your favourite one 'for it is by grace you have been saved.....'
As a born again believer I am saved. I have called on the name of the Lord and He afforded me salvation. Saved from my passed life of sin and now saved by grace and serving my Lord. So therefore can I lose my salvation?

· Sing

· Is that your answer to my question "what is once saved always saved?"

On the one hand, you said, "for it is by grace you have been saved....."; on the other hand you claim, "I have called on the name of the Lord and He afforded me salvation."

So, it is obvious that your activity of calling on the name of the Lord has a direct bearing on the Lord "affording" you His salvation.

How does that idea line up with "for it is by grace you have been saved"?

If you can STICK to this simple question, please answer. Otherwise, no need further comment. Thanks.

· Teth

· THREE QUESTIONS:

- Does God uphold the universe by the word of his power?
- Does that include the spiritual life imparted to the elect?
- Does that upholding constitute some preservation of that life?

· Sing

· You have your answers to those questions already. So just tell us.

My subject is specifically on "The so called 5th point: Perseverance or Preservation?" If you have questions on that, they may enlighten me on that point. Thanks, TETH.

· Teth

· Sing, I assumed that the answers to those questions most certainly fell into the domain of those things most surely believed among us (Luke 1:1) and that as such the conclusion logically follows.
- God upholds all things by the word of his power (Hebrews 1:3).
- God is therefore the sustainer of all life (John 15:5).
- God is therefore a preserver of eternal life (Jude 1:1).

· Sing

· What is your notion of preservation with regard to the so called 5th point? God preserves them in what? If you can keep the focus and not wander into generalities, I would love to hear further.
What do "all things" in your statement above embrace?

· Griffis

· Did they need a p"" to complete their flower and chose Preservance instead of Preservation because "continue in a state of Grace" would not fit their flower?

· Teth

· SFL: What is your notion of preservation with regard to the so called 5th point?
TETH: That we are “PRESERVED in Christ Jesus” per Jude 1:1.

SFL: God preserves them in what?
TETH: The state of eternal life which he gives unto them and which keeps them from perishing (John 10:28). Consider this: Is God the sustainer of life? (Hebrews 1:3)

SFL: If you can keep the focus and not wander into generalities, I would love to hear further.
TETH: I don’t believe I have “wandered into generalities” but rather have attempted to elicit a reconsideration of your statement by invoking precepts that are most surely agreed among us (Luke 1:1). The hope is that we would both regard these precepts as exerting a governing force on the language we employ and that we would self-correct or otherwise revise our statements accordingly when this is pointed out to us. Since I have evidently failed in my attempt by being too angular, let me be more explicit.

TETH: You refer to “the FABLE of having to preserve the effectually called.” I would ask – is the state of being effectually called a state of eternal life? Is this state something that requires the sustaining power of God? If the answer is yes, and it most assuredly is, then God is most certainly PRESERVING us in this state of life as an ongoing, eternal manifestation of his ABIDING grace, and thus the sustenance of our eternal life is undeniably among the “all things” which are upheld by the word of his power. It follows that to call the “PRESERVATION” of the effectually called a “fable” is at best an unfortunate hyperbole that requires some qualification, and at worst just plain wrong, IMO.

TETH: You say that, “No further activity is needed for him to remain in that state of grace and salvation.” I would again ask - is the eternal life imparted to God’s people a life that is independent of the sustaining power of God, or the result of his sustaining power? If it is the former, then you are certainly correct, but it is likewise certain that it must therefore be a life that is not “in Christ Jesus” but “independent of Christ Jesus” so far as it's sustenance is concerned. If it is the latter, then we once again find ourselves affirming that our state of eternal life is part of that which God upholdeth by the word of his power (Hebrews 1:3), that he has covenanted to do so eternally (John 10:28), and that we are therefore beneficiaries of his eternal and abiding PRESERVATION (Jude 1:1).

TETH: In summary, both of those statements require significant further qualification apart from which they are unsustainable and hyperbolic.

Or so it seems to me,
TETH

· Jerry

· Bro. Sing...You bring up a valid point in your statement...I'm trusting that you mean Grace in an eternal sense, because as Gal. 5:4 states:
Christ has become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye have fallen from grace." I believe "falling from grace" in this instance only happens in this life...in a temporal sense...

· Sing

· TETH: The so called 5th point declares the immutable consequence of the divine activity of effectually calling a man out of his native state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation in Christ. There is neither the perseverance by the saints imagined by the calvinists, nor the preservation by God imagined by others!

Is Jude 1 speaking of the latter?

Here is Jude 1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called..." What is the preservation here? What is the logical order of the three verbs?

Here is John 10:28
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Show me that it says anything about the eternal life needing preservation. Thanks.

· Marty

· Well, I will agree that the frequent interpretation of Perseverance - that the regenerated will persist in a state of humanly discernable godliness until they die - is wrong.

I will also say that the older Baptist interpretation of Perseverance - that God keeps His children both from within and without - is true, but that "perseverance" was not the best term to use, since the only scriptural usage of that word is in Ephesians 6:18, and it does not there mean what the confessions take it to mean.

I do not agree, however, that the Primitive Baptist supported doctrine of Preservation is wrong. Psalm 31:23, Psalm 37:28, Psalm 97:10, Psalm 145:20, I Thessalonians 5:23, and Jude verse 1 all teach the doctrine of Preservation, and use a form of the word "preserve" to teach the doctrine. Other verses, such as Romans 8:38-39, and John 10:27-29, teach the principle, but do not use the word.

· Charles

· Here is a statement by a modern PB defining regeneration that includes the perseverance view: "Regeneration, meaning second birth, is a work of God's sovereign grace whereby He gives a person a new heart, transforming character at a radical level." -Michael Gowens, Basic Bible Doctrines, p. 132

· Sing

· Brother Jerry, the divine activity that brings a man out of his native state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation in Christ Jesus deals with ETERNAL salvation.

· Jerry

· I knew that's what you meant...Blessings...

· Teth

· Sing, Does God sustain life or does God give life that is self-sustaining independent of the power of God?
Is "life" a component of that which God upholds by the word of his power?
Brother, the moment you affirm the utterly unassailable precept that God is the sustainer of all life whether natural or spiritual, then the matter of God's ongoing act of PRESERVATION in that state follows as a matter of logical consequence.

· Sing

· What life are you about, TETH? Don't waste time on generalities. Is the life you are talking about the same as the STATE of grace and salvation into which God has effectually called?
Good night.

· Teth
Charles, Any biblical definition of one's state of regeneracy and the nature of one's life "in Christ" must accommodate the undeniable existence of remaining sin in the lives of God's children (I John 1:8). Stated plainly, apart from providing an explicit definition of what someone intends by the term "perseverance" the discussion is seriously hobbled for lack of definition.

I believe the matter is best understood by recognizing that PRESERVATION is a monergistic act of God, whereas PERSEVERANCE is a synergistic act to which God's people are exhorted. Bottom line - if our eternal salvation is beholden to synergistic perseverance, then salvation is by works - a position that is soundly rejected by the word of God (Romans 11:6, 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, II Timothy 1:9, etc.) http://theearstohear.blogspot.com/.../primitive-baptists...

· Charles

· if our eternal salvation is beholden to synergistic perseverance, then salvation is by works - a position that is soundly rejected by the word of God. Amen.
synergistic perseverance does not flow naturally nor automatically from regeneration.

Regeneration involves a change of nature not any change of mind, character, direction or behavior. It brings a person totally depraved into an immediate readiness for eternal life.

· Linda

· I am quoting scripture. Which is the truth. If the scripture tells me that "all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved', then I believed it. Finished. I find you very arrogant and rude. What I am saying is "can a person lose their salvation", that is all, put in another way.

· Norvel

· I'm inclined to agree with you Sing.

· Ante

· Sing, are you saying we should actually drop the P altogether? Sounds reasonable.

· Teth
CP: Regeneration involves a change of nature
TETH: True enough, in so much as it is a quickening of one dead in trespasses and in sins unto eternal life (Ephesians 2:1, John 5:25).

CP: not any change of mind,
TETH: Does the new birth not provide "the mind of Christ" (I Corinthians 2:16) to one who only previously possessed the "carnal mind" which is enmity with God? (Romans 8:7) This would seem to constitute some change of mind, IMO.

CP: character, direction or behavior.
TETH: Perhaps, but it heralds the beginning of spiritual sensibilities wherein his attitude toward sin which before was in a persistent state of unbridled carnality, is for the first time opposed by a second witness - the spirit of God. He may rebel against this witness, but I submit that while his quantitative practice of sin may not change, his qualitative experience of sin does.

CP: It brings a person totally depraved into an immediate readiness for eternal life.
TETH: No. It imparts to one who was dead in trespasses and in sins (Ephesians 2:1) the immediate GIFT of eternal life from which they shall never perish (John 10:28). To suggest that regeneration merely PREPARES someone so that they are READY for eternal life is a form of prevenient grace, not the teaching of sovereign grace wherein one is born from above and at that quickening moment, before they have ever done one thing good or ever had a single spiritual capacity to exercise, they pass from death unto eternal life (John 5:24) which enables any of the subsequent manifestations thereof which may follow, such as belief of the truth, repentance, conversion, discipleship, etc. THAT is salvation by sovereign grace that is not according to our works (II Timothy 1:9).

Or so it seems to me,
TETH

· Charles

· I John 3:9 He that is born of God I absolutely deny any prevenient grace for regeneration.
The conversion experience ministers to the mind, character, direction and behavior.

· Teth
CP: I absolutely deny prevenient grace for regeneration.
TETH: I do not doubt that but when you define regeneration as that which "brings a person totally depraved into an immediate READINESS for eternal life" you are making regeneration a form of prevenient grace, i.e., that which enables someone to become a partaker of eternal life but which falls shy of actually imparting eternal life to them. That is an unbiblical definition of regeneration. It may not be what you intend by the quoted phrase above, but it is most certainly implied by the language, IMO.

CP: The conversion experience ministers to the mind, character, direction and behavior.
TETH: I do not doubt that this is so, but it appeals to the spiritual mind, not the carnal mind, and those who have a spiritual mind via regeneration have had a change of mind in some measure, else there would be no mind to which gospel truth could have any appeal (I Corinthians 2:11). Does spiritual truth appeal to the unregenerate character? I don't see how it could given that this character is enmity with God (Romans 8:7). Does it appeal to one who has changed behavior? Undeniably it does, because the behavior of having any thought of God whatsoever is utterly foreign to the unregenerate (Psalm 10:4). It follows that the very hearing of the truth with the spiritual ear is a change in behavior, given that it is a behavior never previously exercised by the unregenerate.

Or so it seems to me,
TETH

· Robert

· Sing, is it not our state, being preserved in Christ? Perseverance denotes ongoing activity an ever changing "state". Preservation denotes a fixed position (kept by divine power) IE: fixed state. State infers from Scripture our current condition, which is preserved according to Jude! I think I see this right. Sing maybe you are fixed on a term and not a concept I think both you and TETH are correct but splitting hairs over nothing.

· Charles

· Teth, Sing said it better than I: "IMMUTABLE EFFECT of the sovereign activity of God in effectually calling a man out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation; the called ones immutably remain in the state of grace and salvation. No further activity is needed for them to remain in that state of grace and salvation."

· Sing

· Linda @ "I am quoting scripture. Which is the truth. If the scripture tells me that "all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved', then I believed it. Finished. I find you very arrogant and rude. What I am saying is "can a person lose their salvation", that is all, put in another way."
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By your confession, you are stupid enough to mess around with an arrogant lad! Denunciation is your favorite tool. Poor woman.

Linda, you are just addicted to sound bytes. I have endeavoured to help you to think a bit, but you won't. You are stuck with sound byte, and lack sense.

You are quoting Scriptures alright. The Devil quotes better than you do, and I'm not impressed one bit! Scriptures need to be rightly divided to bring forth the truth - you will help me if you do that!
Sound byte generates noises only, and I'm a quiet man.

Your sound byte: "all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

May I ask, who are able to call on the name of the Lord?
- those already effectually called out of their native state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation; or those still in their native state of sin and death?
- If the former, then are they saved? If they are, in what sense are they saved; and how will calling on the name of the Lord save them?
- If the latter, then you are saying that such can perform some acts to get themselves saved.

Use your God-given brain a little bit. Don't just blah blah blah.

· Teth

· There’s been a lot of discussion in the last 12 hours or so. Let me just make a few observations regarding some of the things said:

- Regeneration is not an imputational transaction, but a vital transaction (Ephesians 2:1). It does not account for our sin, but rather imparts the vital benefits of the fact that our sins have been accounted for (Galatians 4:6).

- It has been well said among the PBs that “life precedes action” and I believe we all see this simple precept (John 3:3). I would likewise submit for your consideration that “life requires sustenance” and that the unavoidable logical consequence of that truth is that God upholds all life (whether spiritual or natural) by the word of his power (Hebrews 1:3) as an ongoing act of sustenance or PRESERVATION.

- This sustaining work involved in the ongoing existence of eternal life has NOTHING to do with our works, NOTHING WHATSOEVER. It has to do with the power of God (Hebrews 1:3) along with the promise that it will not fail (I Thessalonians 4:17).

In summary, I believe it is profitable to consider the following questions

- Does life require sustenance?
- Does God actively sustain your natural life at this very moment?
- Does God actively sustain your spiritual life at this very moment?
- Will God sustain your spiritual life through all eternity?

To the extent that one answers Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes, one likewise affirms that our PRESERVATION in an eternally living state is an ABIDING and ongoing exercise of the power of God. I do not believe it does any violence to language to refer to this as PRESERVATION. While it is true that our legal justification before the throne is a declaration made on the past finished work of Christ, the totality of our salvation is composed of more than just legal justification, but also includes eternal vivification per the promises of God (John 10:28) and that requires the abiding power of God, indeed, for in him we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28).

Or so it seems to me,
TETH

· Sing

· TETH, you quoted a passage from John to prove preservation of eternal life, I requested you to make good on that claim, you haven't yet.

preserve |priˈzərv| verb [ trans. ]
maintain (something) in its original or existing state.

preservation |ˌprezərˈvā sh ən|
noun, the action of preserving something

The needs for preservation presupposes the element of deterioration, decay, or degeneration in the thing preserved. Think about that!
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