Begotten, then sent later!

Eternal Word was made flesh and Son of God begotten, 

then later He was sent into the world

Dane posted:
The apostles were already apostles before Jesus sent them out just as Jesus was already God's Son even before He was sent into the world.

The issue at hand is not the deity of Jesus in his humanity but his sonship in eternity.

Jerrye
‎@ Dan, Doesn't the Scriptures say that "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God?" Jn. 1:1
I don't see anything here that tells of a "Sonship" in these verses...

Sing F Lau
Brother Dan, they were men first before they were made apostles by Jesus. And they were made apostles first before they were sent out! First they were men... and they remain men until they were made apostles. And AFTER they were made apostles, they were still men, and as apostles they they were sent out.

The Word is eternal, but the Word was not Son. The Word was made flesh and the Son of God was begotten. After the Son of God was begotten, He was sent for His work. And He was officially sent for His work at His water baptism, where it was public declared, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

There are the men... they were made apostles... so they are apostolic men... and as apostolic men they were sent out.

There is the eternal Word... He was made flesh... so He is Jesus Christ the God-man, the only begotten Son of God... and as God-man He was send out.

Put eternal sonship in the bin for a while. It clouds your thinking.

Dane
‎---------------------
The Word was made flesh and THE SON OF GOD WAS BEGOTTEN.
---------------------

If you recall I brought up the issue of the right translation of "monogenes" on PB group because this may determine the foundation of the sonship of Christ: whether eternal or incarnational.

The statement quoted, to me, is brought about by what I believe a mistranslation.

Bible students must not build around the meaning of "begotten" but the original text, MONOGENES, which should not be rendered 'begotten' but "only kind".

After we have translated the original text properly, only then can we start laboring for the right meaning of "begotten".

Sing F Lau 
So, tell us who is the 'only kind' - Jesus Christ that is BEGOTTEN and BORN, or the eternal UN-BEGOTTEN Word, or something else?

Perhaps the idea of 'eternal sonship' is only feasible with the re-translation of the KJT!

Jerrye
@ Dan, The Apostles were sent out by Jesus and given that name by Him AT THAT TIME...The name, APOSTLE means, according to Strong's: "a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ...I don't see how they could be apostles before that time...

Sing F Lau
Brother Dan, however μονογενής is to be translated, it is certain that it is a compound word from μόνος (G3441) and γίνομαι (G1096).

μόνος (G3441) : alone, only,

γίνομαι (G1096): to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being.

That's from Strong. Not that I trust him. Just that he is far superior in his Greek.

[It is commonly imagined that 'only begotten' is from μόνος (G3441) and γενής (genes).] That's a basic error.

Dane
As my knowledge of Greek is very limited, I shall appeal directly to the scriptures.

"For this purpose the Son of God was MANIFESTED, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
- 1 John 3:8

... To manifest means to display or to bring to appearance.

Could we at least take the verse at face value. It says the Son of God was manifest.

Language could not be any plainer.

Sing F Lau
Isn't language more plainer than that the Son must be begotten first before the Son can be manifested?

And may I inquired, just when was the Son of God manifested?
Was it when the Word was made flesh, or was it when the Son of God officially entered His public ministry?

Mt 3:
13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Please don't equate the begetting of God's Son as the manifesting of God's Son.

John 1
29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Your fixation on 'eternal sonship' has confused your mind on these basic things.

The gospel is NOT the power of God to save sinners.

Sound-bytism is not rightly dividing the word of truth.
It obfuscates and abuses the word of truth with sound-byte.

A popular sound byte: The gospel is the power of God to save sinners.

Heshi wrote:
The only method whereby God saves sinners is the gospel of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, revealed, explained, and opened to us, so that we can see Jesus dying a substitute, putting away sins forever, and rising enthroned, as God’s Commander in Chief - (Rom 10:14-15) “And how shall they hear without preaching? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!”

Sing F Lau
Heshi, may be it has something to do with expression.
The only method God saved sinners is the LIFE and WORK of Jesus Christ. Period. So, the work of salvation is FINISHED by Christ.

The gospel is the good news of the salvation that has been accomplished by Jesus for His people. The gospel is to make known what God has done...

The gospel DOES NOT save at all. Good news doesn't save, even though good news most certainly informs, instructs, edifies, and calls God's children (those already regenerated) to believe the truth of their salvation that has taken place by God's free grace!!!

Glad tidings of good things PRESUPPOSES the salvation that has been accomplished and applied to sinners while they were still dead on trespasses and sins!

The gospel of peace presupposes peace that is already true... God has reconciled His people through the finished work of Jesus Christ! Christ saves... and the gospel informs us of the salvation that is completed in Him!

Heshi
Salvation isn't a one time event in past eternity, but at the cross, and in the life of the believer. He chose the "foolishness of preaching to SAVE those who believe". 1 Cor 1:18

Sing F Lau
‎Heshi,
- God purposed eternal salvation for His people in eternity.
- Christ secured that eternal salvation on the cross for the same people.
- The Holy Spirit applies that eternal salvation to a man dead in trespasses and sins at... God's appointed and approved time.... Once the eternal salvation is applied by the Holy Spirit, a man if perfectly fitted for eternal glory. Nothing more is needed. THIS SALVATION IS MOST DEFINITELY A ONE TIME EVENT - it cannot be repeated, improved upon, etc.

However, they are still here on earth, and God cares for their temporal well being as they journey to their eternal home.

- The gospel ministry is appointed to proclaim what the Triune God HAS DONE... gospel is good news of what HAS HAPPENED... it is not news of a good offer conditioned upon man's acceptance...
- The gospel ministry is appointed for the instruction and edification of those that ARE SAVED by the free and sovereign grace of God.
- The gospel ministry SAVES (simple present tense!) God's children from errors, superstition, lies, worldliness... and delivers them to godly, sober and righteous living. This is a salvation that God's children must work out for themselves throughout their lives here... and it affects their well being here on here.

Heshi
Past, present, and future. He has, will, and is saving, by the gospel, and the Person of God.

Scott
‎"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18

If the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom1:18) how are you going to save the perishing? How are you going to save if it is foolishness? ‘But unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God’ To a saved man whom God has saved when he hears the preaching of the cross, he sees in it a description of God’s wisdom and power in raising up the Lord Jesus Christ, to be the saviour of His elect, and guaranteeing salvation of every single one. It’s fabulous news.

The power is not in the gospel itself, it is in God through Jesus Christ, and the gospel tells us about it. It is the good news of that power. Why doesn’t it say in 1Cor 1:33 ‘unto the Jews the power of God’? because when the Bible says the gospel is the power of God, it means it’s received, it’s perceived, it’s discerned. It’s understood as the power of God by believers. Unless you are saved regenerate believer, you will receive, perceive, discern or consider the gospel foolishness. The gospel is not foolishness literally or in actually: the gospel is the good news about God’s power in Jesus Christ and to the unsaved man, they consider it foolishness, and to the saved, when we hear it, we say Amen I believe that! But unless you are ordained to eternal life you won’t believe (Acts 13:48)

That is why Paul would say in 2Tim1:10 the salvation of 1:9 is made manifest by the appearing of Jesus Christ and life and immortality are BOUGHT TO LIGHT THROUGH THE GOSPEL.

Matthew
Nicely worded Scott. Easy to read.

Sing F Lau
Past, present, and future. He has, will, and is saving, by the gospel, and the Person of God.
=========
Let's reason a little!
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.
The PAST is what God HAS DONE in Christ to have you saved...
- He purposed your eternal redemption...
- Christ accomplished your eternal redemption...
- the Holy Spirit applied the eternal redemption to your personally...
- All these are completely by free grace, and completed perfectly. As a result you ARE SAVED...as saved as can be while here on earth, completely and perfectly fit for heaven.
- These are WITHOUT and APART from the gospel.
- There is gospel ONLY BECAUSE these divine acts HAVE TAKEN PLACE. There would be NO GOSPEL if these divine acts of salvation had not taken place. There is gospel because of what God HAS DONE to save His people in Christ Jesus and applied by the Holy Spirit.

Isn't that so simple, obvious, and plain?

The FUTURE is what God WILL DO to consummate your eternal redemption at Christ's return. You await glorification. And this will be completely by free grace too - WITHOUT any aid or cooperation from men!

The PRESENT is what you must do to work out your OWN salvation through your obedience to the Father's will. God works in His children to will and do... but they must will and do the good will of the Father. This salvation is entirely different... this is ongoing, involving your temporal well-being as God's children. This is saving by the gospel ministry, ministered through faithful men.

Mike
Wow, that was some deep stuff

Heshi
Scott, the gospel is the power of God because He says so. It is the instrument that He uses (Rom 1:16). the Greek on 1 Cor 1:18 is "being saved". There are dozens upon dozens of scriptures that speak of salvation in the past, present, an...d future. The Philipian Jailor asked what he must do to be be saved, Paul told him, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (future)", and then he preached Christ unto Him. The Father elected, which is salvation. The Son redeemed, and saved us who believe. The Spirit applies the gospel, gives light and knowledge, even faith, so that we are saved in our experience. Then, when this world is ended, and we're in heaven's bliss, that is called in scripture, "salvation", too.

Sing F Lau ‎
Heshi, the gospel is the good news... good news is the message declaring what the power of God has accomplished in Jesus Christ to save His people.

The gospel itself HAS NO POWER, is NOT THE POWER... but sadly it is so commonly misunderstood, and misquoted.

Sing F Lau ‎
Heshi, here is a short article... very helpful to understand the 'past, present and future' issue. It is help you to understand the issue better. It helped me a great deal 10 years ago.
http://letgodbetrue.com/questions/when-was-paul-saved.htm

Read and study it... When Was Paul Saved?

Heshi
‎"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for IT IS THE power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom 1:16). "For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED".

One great danger to "systematizing" the bible, is... when we make plain scriptures say what they don't say, and hide and twist others, because they don't fit with our system of interpretation. The bible must speak for itself, and we must bow. It may not fit our system, but that only shows the system is flawed, not the language of God in scripture.

Sing F Lau
No, a real, and worse danger is the prevalent disease call sound-byte-itis. This common disease incapacitates and cripples man's ability discern to the SENSE of what they read. They are addicted to sound-byte.

The gospel is the good news... the news declares something good that has happened... the good that has happened is that God, by His sovereign power HAS SAVED His people from their condemnation and death, through the finished work of His Son.

God's power to save, and the gospel that announces the divine power that HAS SAVED are two different things. It takes just a little twisting to transfer that power from God to the gospel!

The message has no power to save. The message, however, does informs and instructs that God has POWERFULLY saved His people.

Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sound-bytism is the mother of all confusion.

You quoted: '"For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED".

May I ask, who are them that can call upon the name of the Lord? Those still dead in trespasses and sins, or those already SAVED by God, i.e. regenerated with eternal life? Do you believe the former or the latter? If the former, you repudiate Christ plain statement, "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT...' and say that a man in his native state of trespasses and sins CAN. Christ says CANNOT!

And may I ask, "SHALL BE SAVED' - save from what? How does your believing in Jesus Christ save you? Is this the same as God saving you by His free and sovereign grace in Christ Jesus?

There is a good reason for this injunction:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Sound-byitis is a severe disease, crippling the ability to rightly divide the word of truth!
Sound-bytism is not rightly dividing the word of truth.
It obfuscates and abuses the word of truth.

Capitalism vs Socialism/Communism

 (found it in my in-box)

2Th 3:10 

"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, 

that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

'No loaf for the loafers.'

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that  socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism".. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied 'hard' were upset and the students who studied 'little' were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied 'even less' and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied 'little'.

The second test average was a 'D'. No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that "socialism" would also ultimately 'fail' because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.


These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

To them gave He power to become the sons of God!

A little man moving a mountain!

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God!

John 1:12-13

  12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Sadly, so MANY think to be given "power to become the sons of God" is the SAME as to be born again or regenerated by God!!! That a most basic and obvious error. Just think about it!

A child is not born when he acknowledges a man as his father! A child who acknowledges a man as his father was ALREADY born much earlier. When he acknowledges a man as his father, he receives, and experiences the right and authority to claim that he is the son of that man, and have access to all the blessings and privileges that belong to the sons of that man! Though a son nevertheless, his non-acknowledgment deprives him of such EXPERIENTIAL and PRACTICAL blessings.

On Nov 10, 2011, at 10:55 PM, Joeho wrote:

Brother Sing,

I have a question for you that I'm sending privately to you rather than on the public Forum.  I raise the question to you because I respect your knowledge of Scripture and your soundness in the faith.

A man tells you that he believes that "Receiving Christ" in John 1:11-12 refers to the new birth.  He believes that the unregenerate sinner must so "Receive Christ" to be born again.  However, he quickly qualifies his point by saying that he also believes that God has effectually and irresistibly predestinated that all the elect shall so receive Christ.

Therefore, according to his reasoning, he believes that salvation is all of God just as fully as you. Therefore, you should not be upset with his view, nor strongly disagree with him.  How would you react?  How is this view different from the RBs whom you wisely left?

God speed to you, Brother,

Joeho

On November 10, 2011 8:59 AM sing wrote:

Dear Brother Joeho,

Thanks for your kind thoughts. If the truth be told, it is people like you who has taught me the gospel of Christ!

It is a serious mistake for him to understand 'receiving Christ' in John 1:11-12 as referring to new birth.

  12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

  13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is very clear that three distinct and specific things are mentioned in the two verses :

- 'received him' : man's act of believing and receiving Christ... (conversion)

- 'given the power to become the sons of God'... (experience the one's sonship)

- 'born of God' the new birth... (regeneration)

And the order of these three actions are obvious: new birth, conversion, and experiencing the right and authority to claim divine sonship.

A man who believes in Jesus Christ gives evidence that he has eternal life... 'whoever believes have eternal life.' Whoever believes HAS BEEN born of God, experiences the right and authority to divine sonship. It is obvious that one must be born of God first, which enables him to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, and in believing he is given the power to become... to claim himself as a son of God.

It is a common error to equate being given power to become the sons of God as the new birth!

The new birth by the sovereign activity of God that enables a man to believe.

And it is believing the gospel truth that enables a man to experience the power to become a son of God.

His believing that the unregenerate sinner, i,e, dead in trespasses and sins, can so 'receive Christ' in order to to be born again, is so contrary to Christ's own declaration, 'Except a man be born again, he CANNOT...'  

His belief has repudiated the declaration of Christ. He is contradicting Christ! And that is no light matter!

His statement that God has effectually and irresistibly predestinated that all the elect shall so receive Christ (through hearing the gospel, and believing it) is plainly contrary to Scriptures, as well as historical facts.

He has erroneously conditioned regeneration on the preaching and the hearing and believing of the gospel. It is typical of Calvinists to confuse the effectual call as the gospel call blessed to the regeneration of sinners dead in trespasses and sins... whereas effectual call is God's direct and immediate activity in calling an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of righteousness and eternal life.

I would remind him that his scheme of salvation is not by free grace alone, but tainted and adulterated with man's activities. If he insists that his scheme of salvation is as 'free grace' as my understanding, I would be angry with him... and will call him a liar if he persists after he has been shown the vast difference!

I would remind him that we are world apart: He believes that the activities of life can precede life; I believe that life must precede any activity of that life! The difference is fundamental! We are on parallel roads!

He sounds so like the RBs here in Malaysia. The RBs here, in reacting to the truth I bring to them, have swung further away... and is sliding towards full blown Arminianism.

Why would some old baptists even return to the vomit of the Calvinists???

Why Lord? Why?

Ready to be your arm-bearer,

sing

On Nov 10, 2011, at 5.59 PM, Joeho wrote:

Brother Sing,

A full, unrestrained "Amen" to every point you make.  

Love in Christ,

Joeho

The just shall live by faith; NOT by faith a condemned man is justified by God!!

 The just shall live by faith... the biblical fact,   

and the sola fideists' fable!

Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

It is the just who shall live by faith, i.e. it is those whom God has justified that shall live by faith. Justification by God is the cause and live by faith is the effect.

But the sola fideists - those who teach and believe that a man is justified before God by his faith alone - insist the very opposite, that the unjustified who live by faith is justified by God.

That's putting the cart before the horse, perverting the truth 'the just shall live by faith' into a fable 'the unjustified who believe is justified.'
June 19 at 11:32pm

The just shall live by faith.

The just shall live by faith.

The just shall live by faith.

But many read these words to mean:  

By faith the condemned man is justified by God!!

The just (justified by God) WERE in their native state of condemnation and death. How did they become justified and live? Can't possibly by their act... of believing... for faith is IMPOSSIBLE when a man is STILL in his unjustified state, his native state of condemnation and death.

But first, how did a man get into that native state of condemnation and death? Here is the plain answer:

Read carefully please:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned... 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation [of death]; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Here is stated in the plainest and simplest form THE GROUND and THE MANNER a man in his native state of condemnation of death is transferred into that gracious state of justification of life.

The sole ground is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF ONE... the legal basis of the justification of life is the righteousness of One, Jesus Christ (not your faith!!!). This is LEGAL imputation of Christ's righteousness at the cross... just as the legal imputation of Adam's sin at the fall.

The sole manner is the free grace of God... God freely applies the righteousness to an individual elect personally at the effectual calling unto grace and salvation. This is VITAL application of Christ's righteousness to an elect personally... just as the vital application of condemnation is applied to a man at conception.

Only when the righteousness of Christ has been APPLIED to an elect personally, i.e. when God HAS JUSTIFIED him, that he is capable of believing. His act of believing EVIDENCES his justified state by the free grace of God based wholly and solely upon the righteousness of Christ.

But the Calvinists and their first cousins Arminians INSIST that they are justified by God WHEN they believe in Christ... their justification by God is conditioned upon their faith!

Let God be true but every man a liar!!!