Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" 2Ti 2:7.

Wednesday, May 1, 2024

"Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled"




Brother Sing
Luke 21:24 @And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.@

Gill's exposition on the same: "and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles; the Romans, who ploughed up the city and temple, and laid them level with the ground; and which spot has been ever since inhabited by such as were not Jews, as Turks and Papists: and so it will be, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled; that is, till the fulness of the Gentiles is brought in; until the Gospel is preached all over the world, and all God's elect are gathered in out of all nations; and then the Jews will be converted, and return to their own land, and rebuild and inhabit Jerusalem; but till that time, it will be as it has been, and still is possessed by Gentiles. The word "Gentiles," is left out in one of Beza's exemplars, and so it is likewise in the Persic version." 

I have a few questions to ask of you. Luke 21:24 as I understand AD70, explained in great detail during the talks in KL and Penang in 2007. I am unsure about the explanation given by Gill highlighted red above
 
a. When shall this happen - the Jews returning to reoccupy the land occupied by the Gentiles (as seen today's Jerusalem as occupied by the Palestinians)?
b. When is the Gospel preached throughout the world and the fullness of the Gentile are brought in?
c. Will this really happen that is after the gentile are brought in, the conversion of the Jews will happen?
d. Is it really the scheme from God that the Jews would one day return to Jerusalem to dwell. Is it because of this that countries like the USA and Britain are anxious the Jews are protected to ensure their survival so that God's scheme is brought to place?
e. No wonder many today look towards the evangelising Israel for the above interpretation to come to fruition.
and finally,
f. Can I accuse John Gill of holding the premillinialist's view?
 
It will be helpful if you can assist us and I appreciate your time to consider these. Thank you 
 
God's Mercy upon us
eXunny
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Dear Brother eXunny,
Your question on Dr Gill reminded me of this mail!

You asked an interesting question. Dr Gill is inclined towards a pre-millennial position. And that has affected his understanding of many related passages.

I wrote this in reply to Pastor Zee who inquired about the same passage:

Good morning Brother Sing,
I suspect that Christians do not rightly divide what the Bible is saying in the verse 'until the day of the Gentile be fulfilled." If you feel led to, could you post something about this subject? If you do not feel led to, or God gives no direction, that is ok. God bless you today.

I replied to Pastor Zee
Dear Brother,
I wrote this in exchange with an RB. He quoted this passage to prove that the earthly theocratic Israel (distinct from the modern secular Israel) will be re-established someday. So, I give my understanding. The full exchange is on the Facebook wall.

sing
====

I wrote to the RB
Luke 21:24
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: ...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (KJV)

'Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled' - until the end of the gospel age... i.e. Jerusalem will never be restored again as a centre of the earthly theocratic nation.

Israel as an earthly theocratic nation is GONE for good, and forever in the purpose of God. The Jews are still around.

Do you make a distinction between Israel the earthly theocratic nation of the old covenant, and the Jews as an ethnic nation? May be that's where the problem lies.

The RB replied:
Brother Sing, Luke 21:24 indicates an end to the Gentile rule and treading underfoot of Jerusalem. In fact, the context shows it as well. Jerusalem will be trodden under foot 'until'....

I responded:
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
=====
It says "Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
It does not say, as you imagined, "until the rule of Gentiles be over."

Nothing about the end of the Gentile rule as you suggested.
Everything is about the permanent end of earthly theocratic Israel represented by Jerusalem!

The state of theocratic Israel being destroyed and dissolved will remain UNTIL the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled, THAT IS, the end of the gospel age.

The OT was essentially the times of the Jews. But the times of the Jews was divinely ended in 70AD.

The NT is essentially the times of the Gentiles.

"Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" simply means Until the end of the gospel age. Therefore Jerusalem will never be restored because when the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, that will be the end of the gospel age, and the Lord Jesus Christ will return, and usher in the eternal state of being.

That's my understanding.

======

Brother eXunny, I hope the above exchanges with the RB help.
May our Lord grant journey mercies, and blessed reunion with dear ones over the week.
sing

===============

I sounded out the same issue on a discussion group.

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Gill's exposition on the same:
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled; that is, till the fulness of the Gentiles is brought in; until the Gospel is preached all over the world, and all God's elect are gathered in out of all nations; and then the Jews will be converted, and return to their own land, and rebuild and inhabit Jerusalem; but till that time, it will be as it has been, and still is possessed by Gentiles. The word "Gentiles," is left out in one of Beza's exemplars, and so it is likewise in the Persic version.

Dear Brethren,
Please help me! What does the clause "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" mean?
What is "the times of the Gentiles"?

Thanks.
sing
======

Meeky
Sing, it refers to this present gospel age, extending until the end of time when the eternal state becomes a reality. In other words, God is finished with the Jews as a nation all the way to the very end of this present age.

At the end of the age, Christ will return, the dead will be raised (both just and unjust), and He will deliver up the kingdom to the Father saying behold I and the children which God hath given me.

The Jews as a special nation in God's dealings among men ended with their ultimate rejection of Christ. They did fill up the measure of their fathers' transgressions, and destruction came upon them, and they were broken off from the witness of God, and this witness was given to those bringing forth fruit.
 
This is a quick and a bit scattered answer to your question.
 
Mark
Brethren Doug and Sing,
That sounds right to me.  See Matthew 24:14, Colossians 1:6 and 23, Romans 10:18.
I remain.

sing
Brother Mark, Romans 10:18 reminds me of Romans 11:25 where it speaks of the partial blindness that came upon God's children among the Jews. Will that partial blindness be removed, and if yes, when will it happen? 

Was that partial blinding restricted to the apostolic age, or through the whole gospel age to just before the end of the gospel age, when there will be many conversions among the Jews? I would appreciate your thoughts.

Mark
Dear Brother Sing, I will share my thoughts but do not set them up as a standard for anyone else.  My thoughts are not set in stone and I continue to study upon some of these things and very much appreciate the thoughts of others.

I think the partial blindness of Israel that was prophesied of and was working in the time of Christ and Paul was fulfilled by the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.  The ingathering of the Jews, I believe, came at Pentecost and the following period in Jerusalem and continued in the spread of the Apostolic Church in the diaspora. 

From my point of view, there is no longer the nation of Israel that existed prior to the destruction of Jerusalem for the prophecy to include today.  Therefore I conclude that the prophesied blindness ended in the apostolic age.  This does not preclude that individual Jews in the gospel age can be just as stiff-necked and rebellious as they were in the preceding ages.  Hope this helps. Yours in Brotherly Bonds,



 

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