Things New and Old: Is this the norm?

Is this the norm - bright and sunny for each one?

Jul 20, 2007, 7:03 AM

Dear Pastor,
Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, and Lydia are very good examples recorded for our souls. Regenerate and living a godly life prior to the response to the gospel call.

Questions:
a. Is it the norm for thousands of years over the period of human history for regenerated people not to identify with the church or simply come out in the open to declare the glory of God. Understandable in the remote areas where those early times where the gospel could not be reached.
However, with the advances in communications, the gospel could not be reached to them.

b. If in the present era, regenerated people with the foreknowledge of God, do these people have no opportunity to join a church? Then the next question is "How would the people of God praise HIM day and night?" The gathered church may be lacking in numbers to corporate prayers and worship. Then if the regenerated people are not called out to faith between birth and death, then how would the ordinance of baptism be meaningful to the godly and ungodly people as a reminder of the death and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?

By now you may have realised we asked amiss and stupid questions. What bothers me especially "why should God allow His regenerated elect with full mental faculty to miss the opportunity for the fuller well-being of one's life while on earth. Declaring faith in the open would be like Adam & Eve in fellowship before their fall. Fellowship in the church is a type for the thing to come in heaven.

Pastor, I am asking the ridiculous and putting forth questions with obvious answers. As you mentioned often, what is not said carries the true intentions.

Best regards
Ehsan

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sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Jul 20, 2007, 4:59 PM

Dear Ehsan,

It is good to hear from you. Five or six years ago, I was also asking the same questions as you do... only I asked a whole lot more... So, keep asking, and you will help me to keep thinking and learning.

Here is one I just asked two days ago:

Dear Brethren,
Please help me with a question.
The Scriptures declares, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation..."(Revelation of John 5:9).

Does this statement help to answer the questions:
- Were there God's elect that perished in the great flood?'
- Were there 'kindred, and people, and nation' before the confusion of tongue at Babel?
- The period between Adam and the great flood was 1656 years (Antsey) - did 'kindred, and people, and nation' develop within this period?

Any thoughts would be most welcome.

sing
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Concerning your good questions:

Please note that the question, 'Is this the norm' necessarily implies the corollary idea of ' that is an exception.' I have forwarded you a post on this.

Below I will answer within your post. A bit long... but please read it patiently. May our Lord bless you richly. If anything you don't understand, feel free to ask. Anything you don't agree with, show me I am wrong. I am teachable and am still learning.

Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, and Lydia are very good examples recorded for our souls. Regenerate and living a godly life prior to the response to the gospel call. Questions:

## Yes, God regenerates His elect WITHOUT the aid or cooperation of man. This is a given. I fathered ALL my children without their aid or that of the midwives!!! But many people are involved in giving a hand for their nurturing and well being and usefulness.

Please note that we must not commit the FATAL ERROR here, i.e. to construe from this fact that IF regeneration and living a godly life prior to the response to the gospel call THEN the gospel ministry is not necessary to God's children. Please do remember that though Cornelius - prior to hearing the gospel - POSSESSES eternal life and DOES fear God and work righteousness (if by this you mean 'he is living a godly life' - then, yes, he is), yet there is still so much deficiency in his discipleship as a child of God. He is ignorant of the truth of his salvation by God's free grace, His Father, His Saviour; he is still plagued with much superstition, he is still burdened with many cares and worries of life, etc, etc. He is indeed a child of God, but ONLY a babe... the gospel ministry is most essential for the nurture and growth of the babe. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect [complete, mature], throughly furnished unto all good works." (II Timothy 3:16- 17). Every man of God began his spiritual life as a babe. Without the ministry of the gospel, a child of God remains spiritual babe through much of his life on earth... and dies a spiritual babe. Whether a child of God died a spiritual babe or a spiritual giant... they are both EQUALLY justified, regenerated, and adopted and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, and shall be equally glorified - all based upon the works and merits of Christ. This is the eternal aspect of salvation. There is the temporal or timely aspect here and now in this life. That's where the gospel ministry plays a most vital role.

This work of making disciples of God's children - nurturing and instructing them all that Christ has commanded - has been committed to the church. Making disciples of God's children through the gospel ministry is 1000 worlds different from making God's children through the gospel ministry. The standard reformed folks have confused and confounded the two... thus ending up with all the inconsistency and contradiction, and repudiating salvation by free grace alone by direct implication.

a. Is it the norm for thousands of years over the period of human history for regenerated people not to identify with the church or simply come out in the open to declare the glory of God. Understandable in the remote areas where those early times where the gospel could not be reached.
However, with the advances in communications, the gospel could not be reached to them.

## I am trying hard to understand your question - if you are asking a question at all. May be you are making a statement. Do you intend to write, 'IT IS the norm...' (a statement) or 'IS IT the norm...'? I am not sure... sorry, I can't read your mind.

However, please let me say this. It is obvious that if the gospel had not been brought to them... there would be no church there... and without the NT church there, there would be no identifying with the church. Wherever they are, because they are regenerated children of God, their lives would be comparatively quite different from those around them, like that of Cornelius, Lydia and the Ethiopian eunuch in the NT... you can easily quote many of them in the OT.

During the OT, BEFORE the establishment of the distinct group of people who eventually became the covenant nation of Israel, all God's children were scattered in EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nations were WITHOUT any external INSTITUTION to identify themselves with. During the OT, AFTER the calling of Abraham, a specific group of God's people begin to become externally identifiable. These became a covenant nation of God's people... there was then an external institution with which God's children can identify themselves as God's children. Throughout the OT, we read of some Gentiles (God's regenerated children) who came to know and identify themselves with this external institution (Israel). But still, by and large, God's children in most parts of the world then knew nothing about this external institution of God's people.

Please also remember that the people belonging to the special genealogical line that is carefully traced from Adam to Christ were NOT the only elect of God. So often people make the serious mistake of thinking that those people associated with that Christological genealogical line are the ONLY children of God, and there were none outside of it. There were, and are God's elect found in EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Let me be realistic, and say that the advancement in communication does not help much in the matter for several very basic reasons. It has helped the situation SLIGHTLY only. Can you think of some?

## Good questions... I had asked them myself... several years ago. All divine truth is consistent and harmonious.

By 'in this present era,' I supposed you mean the gospel age in the general sense, and the 21st century in particular, where advanced communication tools are available. I have suggested that the advancement in communication does not ensure, and remotely means that in this present era, every regenerated elect will be reached with the gospel. I leave it to you to think why.

Do you know that Cornelius, before the gospel message was brought to him, prayed to God ALWAYS? "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always." Acts 10:1-2. One may object, 'O he learned to do so from the Jews.' Fair enough. Who taught Abraham to do the same? And who taught Enoch, and Noah, and Melchizedek? There were certainly no Jews then! And who taught those in every nation mentioned by apostle Peter in Acts 10:34-35, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Remember, Apostle Peter, under divine inspiration was MAKING A MOMENTOUS STATEMENT OF FACT. He did not say, that in every nation whosoever will fear God and will work righteousness, will be accepted with God, i.e. apostle Peter did NOT make a STATEMENT OF CONDITIONAL OFFER.

These people praise God day and night PRIOR to, and therefore WITHOUT, the benefits of the gospel ministry by their reverent fear of God and do works of righteousness. That's the way the most enlightened saints praise God day and night TOO. The great difference lies in the QUALITY of their respective praises. A child may know God as his Father (see Romans 8:14-15), and yet know next to nothing about him, and praise him and love him in a vague uninformed manner; and another child of the same Father, because of the benefits of a FAITHFUL and BIBLICAL (much is not) gospel ministry may know so much more about his Father, and much more... and praise Him and love Him in a much-informed manner. See the point?

Then if the regenerated people are not called out to faith between birth and death, then how would the ordinance of baptism be meaningful to the godly and ungodly people as a reminder of the death and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?

## If the regenerated people [i.e. already given eternal salvation by God's free grace] are not called out by the ministry of the gospel to faith, then they are deprived of all the blessings - including the instruction concerning how, when and why of their eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, and the ordinance of baptism as a visible and vivid picture of those things - that the gospel ministry is ORDAINED by God to bring them.

That is why the ministry of the gospel is VERY IMPORTANT... but ONLY VERY IMPORTANT for the purpose it was ordained for by God. It is VERY IMPORTANT, not to bring eternal salvation to God's elect, but it is the very important means to bring temporal salvation in this life here and now.

A child of God who is deprived of the gospel ministry and all the temporal blessings that come with it is like a child who is deprived of the blessings of a loving home and all that comes with it. But whatever deprivation a child of God might suffer, they are not one iota less than a child of God. This statement DOES NOT lessen the urgency of seeking out God's children with the gospel ministry.

The 'standard reformed' folks insist that the gospel ministry is VERY IMPORTANT because it is the means appointed by God to give eternal salvation to the elect. This is erroneous.

God's children, in every generation, in every place, whether they have the benefits of the ordinance of baptism that comes along with the gospel ministry, unmistakably BEAR WITNESS to the truth that they have been raised to newness of life... their reverent fear of God and their works of righteousness; these separate them from all those around them who are still dead in trespasses and sin. The gospel ministry alone will give them light and understanding of what has happened.

Let me illustrate the truth. There was a time in high school when we began to learn about the reproductive system in our science classes - about the wriggly sperms and the eggs, and fertilization, etc. Before that you and I know next to nothing about our origin, where we come from, etc. Then we were instructed those wonderful truths! Imagine our older siblings who never went to school... and remained ignorant of those wonderful truths about their origin, the true identity of their parents, etc.; their ignorance does not make them any less children or any less human. See the point? Imagine one of the siblings died early... deprived of the benefits of medical advances, and knew very little of his parents... these are all very great losses but all these do not make him any less child or any less human than the other siblings.

OK, this leads naturally to the next BIG question... and I like this one. I have asked it myself too. So, men made wise by God think alike, and fool never differs!

## I don't see nor realize any asking amiss or stew-pig questions. I think they are all legitimate, but whether they are ridiculous and have obvious answers, I can't say. I would be grateful if you can explain.

I am glad that you are especially bothered by this particular issue! You should be bothered by anything that is not consistent with the revealed word of God, and seek consistency by seeking to rightly divide the word of truth - "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Timothy 2:15)

I want to suggest that behind your good question "Why should God allow His regenerated elect with full mental faculty to miss the opportunity for the fuller well-being of one's life while on earth" there lurks a presupposition or preconceived notion, even though such notion is unbiblical, and contrary to all observable facts in life.

I surmise that the preconceived notion is this: It is God's will that ALL His children (i.e. the regenerated elect) with full mental capacity will hear the gospel preached and enjoy the opportunity for the fuller well-being of their life while on earth... i.e. and be gathered into the NT church with all the blessings that come with it.

How wonderful if this had been the case... I would to God that this is the case indeed. But it is most certainly not - not only contrary to the Scriptures but also contrary to observable facts.

This notion leads to some strange ideas:
First, it assumes that there is no elect of God in all those places and all those people groups (i.e. ethnic nations) where the gospel has never reached. It's a presumptuous notion at best.

Second, it assumes that none of the regenerate (mentally capable) elect is MISSED by the ministry of the gospel in any place in any generation; i.e. the gospel ministry has reached every regenerate (mentally capable, understood... the gospel ministry is intended for such ONLY to begin with) in every place in every generation. Worse than presumptuous to claim so.

Third, this notion is a twin of the related error... gospel regeneration. They believe 'no gospel, no regeneration, no eternal life and no eternal salvation,' period. This is plain ignorance and confusion. Scriptures plainly declare, 'faith comes by hearing,' and not 'life comes by hearing'. It is no gospel, no faith and no conversion.

The triune God has most assuredly declared that He will sovereignly and freely do certain things for ALL His elect people... Read this very popular by most misunderstood passage again, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30.

This passage speaks of ALL the elect... ALL of them who are called according to God's eternal purpose, God will sovereignly and freely do for these SAME people. So please NOTE very carefully what is specifically stated that God will do for EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of His elect. Please note most carefully also what is NOT stated at all.

The things that God will sovereignly and freely do for ALL those who are called according to His eternal purpose are THESE: foreknowledge, predestination, call, justification, and glorification. Here is a most wonderful and perfect and complete 5-links chain.

Please note carefully that these five are SO-LINKED in such a manner that they do not allow anything to come in between them. What God has joined together let not man put asunder by adding useless and odious links of their own invention to the perfect and complete chain. Man's activity in any form or degree is ENTIRELY and ABSOLUTELY excluded.

Foreknowledge and predestination took place before the foundation of the world. The call took place in time... at God's own appointed and accepted time... "Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,(1) by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ..." 1689.10.1. Justification mentioned here also takes place in time, in conjunction with the effectual call to grace and salvation. "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..." 1689.11.1

Note most carefully that the effectual call to grace and salvation, has to be the effectual call and NOT the gospel call, because it is obvious beyond a shadow of doubt that there are elect that are not called by the gospel, but ABSOLUTELY everyone and all elect are effectually called to grace and salvation. Confused 'standard reformed' folks insist that this is a gospel call. These obtuse and stubborn folks refused to accept plain and obvious truth! To make the call here as gospel call destroys the chain... and excludes many elect from glorification.

Note most carefully too that the justification spoken about is a justification that must be true to EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of the elect of God. And this justification simply and obviously CANNOT be the justification by faith through the hearing of the gospel. This is the justification by God's free grace that is true of EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of the elect of God. This happens when He declares an elect under the condemnation of death to be righteous by forgiving all his sins and imputing to him the righteousness of Christ. Confused 'standard reformed' folks insist that this is justification by faith. These obtuse and stubborn folks refused to accept plain and obvious truth! To make the justification here as evidential and experiential justification by faith, they destroy the chain... and shall exclude many elect from glorification.

From this passage, you see the plain declaration of what God has willed, decreed and ordained what He shall perform for EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of His elect. We must be careful not to break that unbreakable chain and add more useless and pathetic links of our own imagination... like the links of the gospel call, faith, faith, progressive sanctification, etc... and force the Scriptures to say what it does not say. Let God be true and every man a liar!!!

God has most certainly commanded the NT churches to labour seek the lost sheep and gather them into the churches. And we are to do that faithfully, and we gathered into the visible church God ALSO cares for the well-being and comfort of His children while they travel through this world to their eternal home - that work is delegated to the church... at the best of time, most often the church fails very miserably. But sovereign grace alone ensures all God's elect shall be glorified. Very humbling and comforting.

Many deluded and misguided men think God needs them to house His elect in heaven!!! What arrogance and presumption. "Him that glories let him glory in the Lord alone" - don't betray any indication that his eternal salvation is somehow remotely dependent upon something man does.

It would be wonderful if God had willed that each and every of His elect would enjoy the gospel blessings to the degree that apostle Paul had enjoyed... but God hasn't, otherwise, His will will surely come to pass.

I have rambled on, but hope it is not all wind,

sing