May 11, 2012
Christ
warning His disciples: fear him which can destroy both their soul and body in
hell (γέεννα gehenna)! Matthew 10:28
Please
note that gehenna is distinct and different from the lake of fire (τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός)
16
¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore
wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will
scourge you in their synagogues;
18
And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony
against them and the Gentiles...
26
Fear them not therefore...
28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but
rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
1. What
is Christ's warning?
2. What
and where is gehenna?
3. Who
is 'him' that is able to destroy both the soul and body of the disciples in hell?
4. Why
do the disciples ought to fear him?
5. What
happens when the disciples do not fear him, but rather fear men?
6. Does
this warning have to do with the destruction in 70AD?
7. Or
this warning about temporal destruction during the intermediate state between
physical death and resurrection to eternal glory?
I
would appreciate your help with those questions. Thanks.
=======
PJ
Walters
I
have similar questions, too. May I share this?
Penny
In
my opinion, this is speaking of a spiritual death... Which is worse, natural
death or spiritual death?
Johnny
Is
gehenna the literal place, that the rich man dwelled, or was that parable a
complete allegory, to show that the prophets and Jesus' teaching are
sufficient, without extraordinary, physical events. If literal, was the rich
man's ultimate destination, hell. If not, then what action of God, mercy, love,
to change the rich man's spirit, into one that God can be with, perhaps
eternally in heaven. If so, is there a distinction without a difference, in
gehenna and hell?
Charles
Specifically,
Gehenna is a real place outside the city of Jerusalem. It certainly does not
illustrate the eternal lake of fire. It is a place where something utterly
useless is discarded into an everburning smouldering rubbish fire. A viper would
be thrown into this smoldering fire where it would twist and skirm unable to
escape. A common snake would be thrown into the hay where it would eat rats and
rodents.
It is not about correction, purging or penitence but disposing of things useless. However not in an eternal destruction or ultimate sense.
Sing
Penny, context precludes that notion.
Sing
When
does a man enter eternity: at his death or at the general resurrection?
Charles
I
believe it is about temporal destruction between death and resurrection to
eternal glory?
Johnny,
you said, "...then what action of God, mercy, love, to change the rich
man's spirit, into one that God can be with, perhaps eternally in heaven."
the Catholics have already solved that with 'Purgatory'! There is no purging
beyond the grave!
I
reject the idea that Jesus gave a parable about the beggar and the rich
man. The people can be fictional, if I may surmise, but the place is real and
Jesus is telling us that there will be children of Abraham in both places. No, it is not alegorical but inclusive of the apostles' teaching!
Sing
Luke
16: 27
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my
father’s house: 28
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.
--------
That
place of torment can be avoided. So it cannot be the eternal lake of fire!
He
called Abraham 'father' three times!
Sing
A
man's place in the eternal lake of fire is determined solely by the passing
over, the preterition, and non-election to eternal salvation.
Re
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the
lake of fire.
Charles
Sing,
it is so real and i am so excited about dying. To live is Christ but oh to
die...I want to experience divine justice.. I've never seen it here on
earth...so much injustice. Nobody ever listens to me here (oh there are a
scattered few) but there people listen and what we say is important. I live
every day here struggling to be heard...nobody pays me any attention. There is
a sword that divides me from the ones I love. They don't listen. My Mother,
Father, brother, wife and daughters don't hear me. I struggle with feeling
insane, my actions are bordering on insanity. I will stand in front of a large
institution this morning before going to work pacing in front of the place like a
wild man, insane. Who do you know who does this? I am an embarrassment to my
wife and daughters.
I know where I am going!!! It is more real than this earth with its fading splendour!
Charles
inheriting
the kingdom and going to heaven is not the same thing!
Sing
Michael, do you understand what 'LIKEWISE' means? So what perishing is spoken of? You
need to go BEYOND sound byte. Sound
byte does not edify.
Rightly
dividing the word of truth does.
Charles
that
is why I don't paste/quote scripture! Seems that scripture is a superstitious
amulet that brings good luck!!!
Johnny
Would
the soul or person (both died, according to the story of Rich Man Poor Man), so
better to say spiritual being, of the person tormented in Hades, Gehenna, the
place where a gulf separates two places, visible to each, BE IN HELL
ultimately, or is it not known. As to eternity, that is a concept, beyond
physical, so we, in the physical, are certainly in spiritual eternity, yet as
brief as the blowing wind. In that sense, we are now in eternity, both our
souls, spirits, bodies, all whatevers.
Penny
The
question should be... when does a man have eternal life??? After he has died
& been resurrected... or after he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ?
Sing
Penny said, "The question should be... when does a man have eternal life???
After he has died & been resurrected... or after he believes on the Lord
Jesus Christ?
=========
Your
question: when does a man have eternal life?
My
question: When does a man enter eternity?
They
are different questions, and both are legitimate.
Your
question requires this answer, 'When God effectually calls that man out of his
native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.'
Is
an effectually called man with eternal life still in time or has entered
eternity?
Sing
Michael, if you will not answer questions, please cease commenting. A privilege to
comment here is coupled with the obligation to respond to questions with respect to
the comments made.
That's
the rule of engagement here.
A
liar boasts, "We all have to repent, and overcome all sin."
The
Bible says, "8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and
the truth is not in us.
9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in
us.
[Michael, has deleted all his comments]
Sing
Michael,
You
quoted,
Luk
13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I
asked, "Do you understand what 'LIKEWISE' means? So what perishing is
spoken of?
I
have said, your privilege to make comments here REQUIRES you the duty to answer
legitimate questions concerning your comments. If you don't abide by this rule,
you will lose the privilege. Understood?
So,
answer the question please before you go blah blah blah some more! Thanks.
Charles
Michael, If the child of God won't repent he will perish in hades. If the
unregenerate won't repent there will be no results. It matters nothing for him
to repent.
Robert
Sing
I don't think it is saying destroy YOUR souls it is just saying souls, I don't
think it is a threat to disciples but a reminder of who the disciples serve.
Also when the rich man calls Abraham father he could be mistaken as the Jews
are now just as our Lord said you think you have Abraham to father see John 8
Charles
he
was not just mistaken but mistaken three times....some people never learn!
Sing
That's
a silly stupid lamb indeed - afflicted with the disease of sound-byte.
Here
is the text:
13:1
¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose
blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2
And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were
sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I
tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4
Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye
that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I
tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
So
tell me, what is the perishing spoken of, and what is the LIKEWISE perishing
spoken of?
Penny
Sing,
you asked, "Is an effectually called man with eternal life still in time
or has entered eternity?"
I'm
not sure how you define effectually called? ... being born of the spirit? or
called to be a disciple? (Both are effectual... active & powerful) But I
think the point is that "eternity" (which I am guessing could be a
synonym for Heaven?) is that we will be in the presence of God. And this all we
really know for sure...
Well, the Bible teaches that if we love one another then God is in us! That is having
everlasting life inside this mortal frame... indeed is one is born of God's
spirit, they are already eternal... for though they will die... yet will they
live!
It is the exact same pattern as our spiritual life in this world. If we are living in the presence of God... with God dwelling inside our mortal frame... IF we are loving our brethern.... we have eternal life... we are enjoying the earnst of our inheritance. This is the GOOD NEWS of the kingdom! AMEN! And what Wonderful News it is!
Penny
God
destroys to rebuild... He has to destroy that spirit of error... that old
man... that lust of the flesh... to save our souls... (not eternally of
course!)
Robert
Sing
your text is clearly a timely perishing of the flesh not eternal, but your
original text was not one you quoted last so question 1: Christ is not warning
but reminding who they serve. As I said before the text says souls, not your
souls.
Sing
Robert, is the period between death and resurrection to eternal glory considered
timely or eternal?
'as
I said before the text says souls, not your souls': are you suggesting that the
words of Christ have no relevance to the disciples then?
Robert
Since
the body is still in the ground and not raised and we are still in time time is
a measurement of eternity that is why the sun and moon where placed in the
heaven. when we arrive at home there will be time no more as there will be no
more sun and all the elements shall be burned up and a new heaven and a new
earth will be. Our spirits are eternal now as we have been given eternal life
our bodies will die and be raised up a new glorified spiritual body, then we
enter eternity a complete being. As far as the Word of Christ having no
relevance that would be insane but the relevance may simply a reminder as to
whom they serve as an encouragement and not a warning
Sing
Robert @ 'Time
is a measurement of eternity...'
Could
you please explain what that means?
Are
you now in time or in eternity?
And
when you breathe your last will you enter eternity, OR will you still remain in
time until you are resurrected into the state of eternity?
Robert
Bro
Sing eternity goes from everlasting to everlasting we can not comprehend
eternity as God knows it Time is set in eternity like a segment on a line is
set in an infinite ray in geometrical terms. eternity was present before God set
the sun and moons for signs and seasons and for days and years for our sake, God
needs not time. As to whether I am in time or eternity I am in both I was given
eternal life before the world began that was before time I understood that I
had eternal life when I believed the Gospel that happened in time. The Sun and
Moon are gods clock to measure days which are only real to us in time not to
God He dwells in eternity and always has The sun and moon are like the clock on
your wall it just measures a passing of moments of eternity. Time only exists
for us here on earth so when I die I leave time and only exist in eternity, I
will be in my spirit with the Lord who dwells in eternity . As we have two
natures we dwell in time and eternity time will end but we go on a segment on a
line has dots it is just a way of measuring a part of infinity.
Robert
Back
to the original questions I re-read and am sure of encouragement to the 11 but
one was Judas the warning you see may have been for him. All disciples are not
in Christ, as evidenced by John 6:66 (oh no the number of man). Also just a
note on places having different names in scripture like lake of fire and
Gehenna, they could be the same place ie: Salem, Jerusalem, City of David, and
Sodom and Egypt are the same place with different names for different reasons.
Robert
Bro
Sing I have noticed you are very interested in the possibility of a temporal
judgment between death and the resurrection, What would be the purpose of that
from God's perspective given that we all are as an unclean thing and our
righteousness are as filthy rags and when resurrection happens we shall be made
perfect in every way? it is not that we must learn here to take to heaven. We
must be changed! Timely judgments from God are to correct our walk here not to
perfect us for eternity, He does not punish as wrath but as a Father who loves
His children. The Apostle Paul said he was the chief of sinners but also said
he knew is was far better to depart and to be with the Lord, Is our Lord still
in Hell? No there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For
that I am very Happy or blessed (Matt 5) Blessed are they that hunger and
thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled. Amen and Amen I hope you
do not look to yourself for justification but only to Christ Jesus. I like your
great desire to know truth but I also knew a man many years ago that got so far
off but splitting individual words etc he really I think did great harm to
God's children .I am a nobody so whatever I say it comes without any training
or schooling just what I think I have learned these last 23 years and each day
goes by I don't get better or more acceptable I get worse I see things about
myself I hate and am powerless to change all I can do is suppress by grace.
Robert
Some
would say I am a reprobate deceived threefold child of hell, but I am what I am
by the grace of God. I stopped trying to figure out who was or was not born of
the spirit many years ago. When I look to me I see darkness when I look to Him
I see light I hope some reflects off me like the sun and moon the moon being
the church
Robert
I
know you know these things I just wanted to help and remind all of us who read
your posts as some have a works self justifying almost anti-Christ feel I pray
that those who examine themselves for assurance will simply look to Christ as
self examiners as I once was always find fault with others may our Father be
gracious.
Robert
I
did not mean your posts have that feel but some of the comments sorry I am
stupid
Sing
Give me 5 weeks to read and digest your
comments! Need not to worry... not the slightest trace of works-justification
here with me!
Johnny
Do
you, Sing, consider the possibility of dwellinig in gehenna, then being with
God forever in heaven; or, conversely, being in Abraham's bosom or equivalent
(the other side of the gulf affixed so those may not move from one area to
another), but
then spend eternity in the lake of fire? If not, why the distinction, as I
believe there is, a temporary place before final judgment. If so, under what
conditions, spiritually, may one go from the bad to the good, or good to the
bad?.
Sing
Good
questions. My present concern is the honest interpretation of the text... and
not the practical implications of the truth yet. Get the truth right, and the
practical implications will come naturally. Is there such a temporal place of
chastisement between death and resurrection to eternal glory? That need to be
settled first.
Johnny
I
would agree that the place of holding (purgatory, if you will), according to
Jesus' story of the rich man and poor man, is literally torture or peace, and
that it is not conditioned on anything said afterwards, as Jesus stated
"they have the prophets, if they will not listen to them, they would not
listen to the dead returning from torment" (paraphrased). And, it is not
the final judgment, though an indication, such tbat no man can change the
consequence of the lives. If that's where you are going. At least that is how I
have been taught, and consider truth, from those passages.
Sing
One's
eternal destiny is determined SOLELY, WHOLLY, COMPLETELY, EXCLUSIVELY by the
finished work of Jesus Christ. Let that be stated as clearly as possible.
I
am just taking SERIOUSLY Christ's warning His disciples about avoiding hell!
There is a hell to be avoided by His disciples. And please let it be stated
VERY PLAINLY tell: hell and the lake of fire are DISTINCT.
Robert
a
temporal place of chastisement between death and the resurrection? Sing I guess
we will all end up there I will see Peter there to he denied the Lord I am
sometimes fearful of man. Sing I jest, I also have wondered about the rich man
and Lazarus and the difference between Hell which sometimes is just the grave
and Gehenna which I think was a pit of burning refuse outside of Jerusalem. In
the old testament it is said the dead go to a place of silence. So I as with
you just don't know what the story is about but I do know there is no judgment,
chastisement or any thing like that between death and the resurrection for the
perfectly redeemed child of grace. Brother i am thankful for your quest for
truth and can understand you puzzling about this question. Did Dr.Gill make
comment on this I don't have any commentaries or I would check for you.
Robert
I
am truly an idiot I meant to say an early death or hell as being the grave is
our warning to obey or get sick and even die see 1 Cor 11:30
Sing
Robert, "I will see Peter there too he denied the Lord "
======
Mt
26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the
cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Lu
22:62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.
Penny
Sing,
what is the distinction between hell and the lake of fire?
Sing
Read
this, and tell me whether there is a distinction.
Rev
20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up
the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their
works.
14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake
of fire.
Christ
warned the disciples of the danger of ending up in hell, but NEVER of their
danger of ending up in the lake of fire.
I'm
probing and learning. Thanks for your interest.
First
off, hell is temporal.
The Lake
of fire is eternal.
Penny
Thanks
for your explanation! You referenced Rev 20.... What is that death and hell?
natural death, spiritual death?
And
since you're referencing the "great white throne" judgment, does that
mean that you believe after resurrection God will judge us according to our
works?
Penny
Or
was that in reference to the temporal?
Robert
Penny
yes we will be judged according to our works and they will be found as perfect
as Christ's are because all the He is we are in Him!! Col, 2:10 Amen
Penny
hmmm...
I dunno Robert, are you sure that is eternal?
Robert
Yes
Penny see Hebrews 10:14 we are perfected forever in Christ
Penny
I
believe we are perfected forever in Christ, but I was asking because I believe
we were judged eternal in Christ before the foundation of the world. I don't
believe in an "end-time" judgment... but an "in time"
judgment.
Robert
Penny, I think Rev 20:12 - 15 We all stand to be judged but we who were chosen are
found perfect in Him according to their works
Penny
Yep!
And I think that is an experience we go through in this life... At least I hope
so. All of the revelations teach that "entering in" to this new heaven
and new earth is based on our works... the ones that overcome... and the works
involved is to believe, and not bow down to the beast. Not "good deeds of
the flesh" but "works through the spirit". God had to of judged
Christ for Him to come out of the grave right?
Robert
When
God judged Christ we were set free there is nothing required of us not even
faith, we don't have faith before the new birth. God is just and the Justifier.
Penny
There
is nothing required for our eternal salvation... Amen! But to be partakers in
the earnst of our inheritance... to enter into that spiritual kingdom... there
are requirements... To who much is given, much is required.
Robert
Amen.
