Regeneration and Conversion

Life is conceived once; 
but conversion - growing in the grace and knowledge 
of the Lord Jesus Christ - is lifelong. 

December 29, 2017

Regeneration and Conversion

The Question asked:
So, there is a varying degree of conversion but there is only one regeneration?

An Answer is given:
## Yes, you are right. There is only one regeneration...
- on EXACTLY the same ground,
- by EXACTLY the same divine agency,
- to  EXACTLY the same degree,
- with EXACTLY the same effect.

Regeneration is the act of God, instantaneous, unrepeatable, perfect and complete; the spiritually dead is quickened to eternal life.

Every elect of God:
- is equally JUSTIFIED (IMPUTED with the SAME righteousness of Jesus Christ): enjoyed the same justification of life, Rom 5:18. The righteousness of Christ APPLIED to an elect personally at his effectual calling is the sole and only ground of his regeneration.
- is equally acted upon by the Triune God in this new creation, born of God, given life by Christ, quickened by the Holy Spirit.

- is equally REGENERATED, equally quickened, brought out of their native state spiritual death to eternal life.

- equally ADOPTED and given the SAME GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT to dwell in each of them.

- thus equally fitted for eternal glory, all by the free and sovereign activities of God.

However, your conversion to the gospel of God and the godliness of life is dependent upon a whole host of factors, the chief of which is a faithful gospel ministry and fellowship of a local church.; and your willingness to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling in obedient to the Father's will for you.

Conversion requires my effort to feed on the spiritual food and grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ...

Experiential/Practical Justification

What is counted unto Abraham for righteousness?

Is it his faith or the righteousness of Jesus Christ?
Righteousness is at the heart of justification. 
Abraham's faith in the promised seed is counted unto him
to experience the blessedness of his justification
by God's free grace while still in the Ur of the Chaldeans.
In Gen 15, Abraham experienced the blessedness of his justified state
through faith in the promised seed.    

December 29, 2021

#experiential_justification

Apostle Paul marshalled Abraham to refute the Judaizers' insistence that the Gentile believers must keep the ceremonial laws; they want to bring the Gentile believers under the yoke and bondage of their geriatric ceremonial laws, being wilfully ignorant that the ceremonial laws had been abolished by the redemptive work of Christ.

Apostle Paul demonstrated that Abraham experienced the blessedness of justification WITHOUT the work of keeping the ceremonial laws - long before the ceremonial laws were given through Moses. Abraham was ALREADY justified, freely by God's grace before Gen 15:1-6; in Gen 15:1-6, he experienced the blessedness of his justified state through faith in the promised Seed.

- The BASIS/GROUND of your LEGAL  justification is the righteousness of Christ alone;

- The MANNER/METHOD of your VITAL  justification is the free grace of God alone;

- The MEANS/INSTRUMENT of your PRACTICAL justification is your faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Christ's righteousness is counted unto Abraham for his justification is NOT THE SAME as Abraham's act of believing is counted unto him for righteousness. There's an unbridgeable gulf between the two; the former is legal justification by the righteousness of Christ, and the latter is experiential justification through faith in Christ.

If you understand these things concerning the biblical doctrine of justification, you have grasped more than many theologians and preachers.

May our Lord bless you to know these things.

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Take a look here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/05/three-distinct-sets-of-contrast-in.html

I attack IDEAS. I don't attack people.

 "I attack IDEAS. I don't attack people.
And some very good people have some very bad ideas.
And if you can't separate the two,
you gotta get another job."

December 24, 2019

So, don't need to take it personally when our sacred cows are attacked and slaughtered; you are too nice to be attacked personally; just be thankful instead that they are interested in the sacred bulls and not you. I'm thankful to have some of mine slaughtered, and have been shown and taught not a few gospel truths along the way; thank you, Lord.

James 5
19 ¶Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2Peter 2
1 ¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Teachers of damnable heresies are mostly likeable and attractive, eloquent and persuasive; they excel in feigning "good words and fair speeches." They don't come with horns and pitchforks.

Jesus called him, "Friend..."

Many insist that "Friend..."
is merely the Lord's sarcastic way of
addressing the despicable betrayer!
The same people also dismiss
Judas' repentance (Mt 27:3-5)
as a cheapskate, fake, and worthless repentance
since it's not repentance unto good works
but a repentance unto suicide.

Jesus called him, "Friend..."

Billy posted
Mat 26:47-50 KJT
47 ¶ And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
=========

39 comments

Stevie
I know many different views on this subject, but I always stop to think... Jesus called him, Friend.

Bensmith
Stevie,  Now that you point it out, "Wow", when was that "added"? We, I, so often read over words in familiar passages of scripture. Thank you. 🙏

Billy
Stevie: Yes, He did; and it wasn't just to fulfill the Scripture that He received wounds at the hand of His friend. In fact, I believe both OT and NT scripture strengthen that the betrayer was one of His.

Sing F Lau
Stevie
John 15 KJT—
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

I was wondering if Judas was present when these wonderful words were spoken?

(p/s I searched later: Judas had left before - cp John 13:30 - Jesus spoke these words...)

Billy
Sing F Lau-  Good question. I will examine that.

Billy
Bro. Sing, I see no reason to believe that Judas or any other of the twelve were absent when Jesus called them all friends in John 15. It is even more interesting to think that the Lord calling Judas friend in the Garden scene should have struck a nerve if Judas remembered the scene from John 15.

Stevie
Billy - Amen and Amen! I do believe He is one of the Lord's.

Stevie
But even if Judas had already left, it remains the same... you can take John 15 passages all the way to the Garden of Gethsemane and beyond. They still are beautiful truth. Jesus laid down His life for His friends and He called Judas, "Friend".

Billy
Stevie - Amen!

Sing F Lau
Billy - It was only after I have understood the distinction between eternal salvation and temporal salvation that my little mind was able to move beyond the ingrained tradition and believe the plain statements of the Scriptures. And I'm called a heretic by not a few folks who firmly believe that Judas' betrayal was deserving of the lake of fire.

Billy
Sing F Lau - I fear that those folk, and I know many as well, are willing to accept what religious leaders have taught with prejudice, rather than search the scriptures logically.

Stevie
Sing F Lau - I also encounter that same attitude that Judas deserves the lake of fire.... But truth be known, we all deserve it. Grace is the wonderful blessing bestowed upon all who are unworthy. I'm afraid I have been guilty of betraying my Lord for much less than 30 pieces of silver. God bless you. I always enjoy reading your comments and thoughts.

Regie
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Ac 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Bensmith
And just think, we, whom He went to the cross for, are His friends.

Sing F Lau
Regie
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
------
This stirs a few questions:
- Did Jesus knowingly choose a devil to be one of the 12 Apostles?
- In what sense was Judas a devil that the other 11 were not?
Thanks.

Stevie
Sing F Lau - And why would Jesus call that one to be His friend, which means "comrade"
Is Jesus a comrade with the devil? No way! But He called Judas, friend, or comrade.

Sing F Lau
I just look at the word "devil" - diabolos...
-------
G1228
i. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
- a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
ii. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him.
-------

Yes, even a friend can be a devil in the second sense above.
O the graciousness and magnanimity of Christ towards lousy friends like me.

Billy
Sing F Lau Amen and AMEN!

Cheery
Stevie - He also called him 'the son of Perdition'
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Not my bisness, tho. That's betwixt Judas and GOD.

Stevie
Cherey - Jesus also looked at Peter and said, "Get thee behind me Satan"
I heard an old wonderful preacher say this...
If Judas is in heaven, I will say "Howdy brother"
If he isn't, I won't miss him.

I have my thoughts, but they are my thoughts. I don't argue, but I have scriptures that I use

Sing F Lau
Cheery - In what sense is Judas a son of perdition?
Perdition is apōleia - G684... the same word is used in many passages describing the temporal destruction of God's people.

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, (G684) and many there be which go in thereat:

2Peter 2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable (G684) heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (G684)

Eatone
I was not present at John 15, yet I possess the hope of being called friend.

Billy
Eatone - Amen!

Sing F Lau
I was just preempting an objection, "O Judas wasn't there, so those words cannot apply to him." 😕😕

Eatone
I could also add I know a portion of a devil I have been and I am not yet stopped groaning.

Sing F Lau
This passage crossed my mind.
John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Please help me with some questions:
1. Was the one that is lost referring to Judas?
2. Is Judas one among them whom God gave to Christ?
- If yes, in what sense was he given to Christ?
- If yes, in what sense was he lost?
- If yes, in what sense is Judas the son of perdition?
- Was Judas lost because Christ was powerless to keep him?
- Or was Judas lost because Christ permitted it in order that the Scriptures might be fulfilled?

Thank you in advance for your kindness. Please be good sounding boards.
Brother Billy, thank you for the privilege to learn here.

Billy
Bro. Sing, I will answer what I believe. The Son of perdition Jesus refers to while praying in John 17 is not a specific person, but is instead the spirit of the man of sin - that fallen man that resulted from the original sin of Adam. When the Holy Spirit regenerates one of His elect, He does not renovate that spirit of the man of sin (who by that nature wishes to be as God, in place of God) but creates anew the spirit of righteousness, making that one a new creature.

It is the new creature who is redeemed. The old, fallen, sinful, creature - the son of perdition - is never redeemed.

Judas was lost in a temporal sense. I will leave his eternal state in God's hands. I personally believe logic demands that Christ would not use a non-elect person to betray him.

Eatone
The only individual that can ever be lost is an elect child of God. No other is or can be lost

Rain
I know what you're saying but I'll bet you will have some saying 🤔.

Eatone
If I am not a stranger here below I have no city or country to look for.

Cheery
Well, according to Suzanne Sugarbaker, "No matter where you go, there you are."

Eatone
Since I learned the distinction between eternal life and the temporal experience of that life, my concern shifted from doubting who outside of myself may have eternal life. Now my focus is to be a helper of their joy and to examine myself rather than others for the eternal

Eatone
Cheery - And I've never been anywhere I didn't go

John
Love the message 💕 ❤️ 💖

Eatone
The member of the Corinthian church Paul told them to separate from themselves was for the purpose of temporal destruction in the flesh; not even in so-called ex-communication did the Spirit direct the apostle to declare that brother eternally condemned. It is man/men who eternally condemn anyone who does not jot their tittles. I've been there and done it, it is a result of absolutism. If I am to remain there having come to the knowledge of the truth, I see no reason to have converted from that fatalistic position. God knows those that are his and whether they are false as well. I absolutely have no interest in going further in judgment than what scripture allows for gospel fellowship. That is where I am at. I won't argue the point either, but, if I am attacked for the love of the tradition of men, I also will not run.

Eatone
These examples were given to us for our instruction, not that we can impose upon the glory of God in determining who is and is not His.

Rogue
I think I will try to limit my comments further to this: Of all the commentators I have looked at thus far, none of them have agreed that Judas was a child of God.

Billy
Rouge - Well, that settles it then. As a dear old friend used to say of such things, "Six million Frenchmen couldn't be wrong!" I have found that most old commentators would not venture outside of what others of their era said about any subject, even to using almost exactly the same phrases and concepts in their opinions.

Sing F Lau
Billy - They were wise enough to play it safe... but not to divide it right!
Much like every reformed man repeats "justification before God by faith in Christ."
When I did not toe the "standard reformed" line, I was branded a heretic and disfellowshipped. Pressure to conform stifles the freedom of inquiry and learning WHAT the Scriptures say! 

Don't bluff me with your Greek!

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come,
the Almighty.

December 22, 2014
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10203370062227758

This is so aptly put...

"With a large dish of humility, we should all approach our use of Greek in our teaching and preaching.  It is far better to honestly confess our limitations than to present ourselves as some kind of expert and then prove painfully that we are not.  I've suffered through far too many "Expert" presentations on a New Testament Greek word or phrase that revealed far more ignorance of that language than scholarship.  I'd far rather confess my limits and, if I use a Greek point, cite the authority and interact with him rather than falsely claiming more expertise than I have. 

Spending a few hours with a New Testament Greek dictionary doesn't qualify a person as a scholar.  Even taking a few classes of New Testament Greek stops distinctly short of that credential.  If we spent long hours with a credible dictionary (And I am one who no longer views Strong's as "credible") or even if we invest in a few courses so that we could stumble through reading a few verses in Greek, we are far below the status of scholars.  Perhaps with all of these investments, we might honestly regard ourselves as first graders at best, clearly not so advanced as to claim authority or expertise in our preaching or teaching.  I do occasionally pursue words and sentence structure in New Testament Greek, but I honestly find my time far more productive if I spend that amount of time with my KJV. 

All too often, despite claims to the contrary, I've read and heard men use their pretense of Greek knowledge to blatantly attempt to correct the KJV, rather than to clarify or to reinforce it.  Little do such men consider that the men who translated the KJV likely had far more scholarship in New Testament Greek than they will ever imagine, much less attain.  When we use any resource, directly or indirectly, to correct the KJV text, we have a more serious problem than language and scholarship. " 

~~ Elder Joe Holder

Righteousness by the perfect obedience of Christ

#Righteousness_of_God
#By_the_Perfect_Obedience_of_Christ 

Faith in Christ and the Righteousness of God
The righteousness of God is the righteousness provided by God.
The righteousness of God is the righteousness provided by God through His Son Jesus Christ.

Sin is the transgression of the law of God.
And sins bring condemnation and death.
Righteousness is obedience to the law of God.
And righteousness secures justification and life.

I consider these as basic and elementary.

The righteousness of God is provided through Christ's life of perfect and sinless obedience to the whole law of God, thus meeting all the righteous demands of the thrice holy God.

A man's faith in Christ plays NO PART in God's provision of righteousness for him, a condemned dead sinner. If anything at all, faith in Jesus Christ is a fruit and effect of God's free and sovereign act of applying that righteousness of His own provision in Jesus Christ to a UN-justified, condemned, spiritually dead man.

Render your just and reasonable duties

December 13, 2021 

#render

Here are some passages of Scriptures with the word "render" - it will do us good to know, and practice the truth in them. So, plant them deep in your soul, and nurture them by practicing them. The benefits shall be great.

Amen.

*render*: to pay off, discharge what is due
- a debt, wages, tribute, taxes, produce due
- things promised under oath
- conjugal duty
- to account

Psa 116
12 What shall I render unto the LORD for all His benefits toward me?
13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.
14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.
(... to the LORD)

Mat 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
(... to BOTH the civil government, and God)

1Cor 7:3
Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
(... to your spouse)

1Th 5:15
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
(... to fellow men)

p/s it makes me smile when I think of the first time I heard of the word "render“ as cement render while a student in college studying architecture; in this context, it means to cover (stone or brick) with a coat of plaster- e.g. the external walls will be rendered and tiled.

2 Timothy 1:9 and 1 Timothy 4:16 Rightly Divided.

2Tim 1:9 and 1Tim 4:16 rightly divided.

 

December 12, 2012
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/1182086067794

2Tim 1:9 and 1Tim 4:16 rightly divided.

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," (2 Timothy 1:9, KJV)

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Timothy 4:16, KJV)

2 Tim 1:9 speaks of a salvation:
- ALREADY a present reality, by God's free grace, entirely by God's own initiatives and activities. He alone is the active subject. The saved are completely passive, being dead in trespasses and sins.
- NOT conditioned on any thing in man, of man, by man (a necessary negation because of the deceitful of man's heart and his propensity to sneak in some 'self'!
- ACCORDING to God's own purpose and grace in Christ Jesus, through Christ's life, death and resurrection alone,
- THROUGH God's effectual call of sinners, dead in trespasses and sins, and in rebellion and enmity, out of sin and death to grace and salvation, i.e. through justification applied personally, regeneration and adoption).

1 Tim 4:16 speaks of a salvation:
- That has NOT YET happened, but SHALL happen,
- That is CONDITIONED upon the obedience of God's children,
- THAT a child of God must labor to attain for himself,
- THAT a child of God can attain for others through his ministry (e.g James 5;19-20).

There two DISTINCT salvation spoken of here: one by free grace upon a sinner in the state of death and condemnation, and another by the obedience of God's children to the will of the God.

A biblical distinction is the ESSENCE of sound theology.

A man who fails, or has not begun to distinguish between the two distinct salvation has notA begun to rightly divide the word of truth!!!

=======

7 comments

Juderey Esternon
Eternal Salvation is really from God alone. Praise be to God!

Carlos Ramos Abaya
I really appreciate how Bro. Sing illustrated comparatively the 2 kinds of salvation that the Bible speaks of. Thank you brother!

Moncada Manny
dre pang sukat ng distance yan ah!!

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
That's a PB bible base teaching about Two kind of Salvation

Sing F Lau
That's a Bible-based teaching. Some PBs happen to understand it too. That's right.

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
Originaly from Bible to OLPB's world and to some Sovereign grace Churches

Sing F Lau
That teaching PRE-dated the OLPBs. That's a fact. Cults have the tendency to make exclusive claims.

Gospel regeneration and Baptismal regeneration

 

December 12, 2019

"Any difference between gospel regeneration and baptismal regeneration? No difference. While a catholic must baptise a baby for it to be saved, a calminian must preach to it. Quite sad." ~~ Ante Zivkovic

Thank you, Brother, for bringing this to our attention. I have rephrased your words a wee bit.

John 3:8 KJV — The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

"So is every one [i.e. WITHOUT a single exception] that is born of the Spirit" - i.e. born immediately and directly by the free and sovereign activity of the Spirit of God.

You will never hear simple farmers say that unless they are working in the farm, the wind will never blow; you have heard very many seminary-trained theologians and preachers insist that their preaching is necessary the catalyst for the Holy Spirit to execute His work of regenerating the spiritually dead.

What has gone wrong? Pray tell.

Jesus GIVES life freely, He does not offer life

 

December 10, 2017

Did Jesus offer you eternal life, or
Did Jesus freely give eternal life to you WHEN you were in your native state of sin and death?

Jesus GIVES eternal life freely, He does not offer eternal life to the spiritually dead

John11
41 ... And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Only AFTER Jesus Christ Himself HAD GIVEN life to Lazarus, He commanded the disciples to do something for Lazarus.

Jesus, Himself ALONE gives eternal salvation; the disciples are instrumental to bring temporal salvation.

Those who say that Jesus offers life to the dead make Jesus appear like an idiot, and betray themselves to be true idiots... because they know it is insane to offer anything to the dead and expect the dead to receive it!

I know the Chinese ancestral worshipers offer roast pig and cognac to the dead... but end up consuming those things themselves! They are the shrewdest folks on earth, and very superstitious too!

Someone inquiried about Judas Iscariot

"As a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."
Sheep and goats belong to one flock of the shepherd;
that's the most obvious, plain and common sense.
Some insist that the goats are not part of the flock!
Then why does the shepherd need to separate them?
Of course, some jokers think the wild GOATS strayed into the flock
and got mixed up with the flock of sheep that belongs to Christ;
What an insolent insult against Christ as the Shepherd! 

Laban had flocks made up of sheep and goats (and cattle). Gen 30:31

October 20, 2014
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10203026549440153

It is common and popular to see the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-46) as representing the elect and non-elect, respectively.

Let me suggest these for your consideration:

1. All three parables in Mt 25 are all about the same theme...
- the wise and foolish virgins of the One Bridegroom
- the faithful and unfaithful servants of the One Master
- the sheep and goats of the One Shepherd

Does this suggestion help to direct your thought on the sheep and the goats a bit? 

"Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old." Matthew 13…

============

21 Comments

eSun
Poultry farmers always have this particular problem. Rats or rodents are uninvited guests in the barns or poultry houses. They, not only bite or nibble the chicks when these poultry are young but they continue unashamedly steal from the feeders. These rodents eat from the same feeders, drink from the same drinkers and take shelters in the barns. The question is: are they owned by the good husbandry man? Absolutely no! As a simpleton farmer, I cannot think beyond this line. I raised my chickens since they are chicks and these belong to me...surely I cannot and do not want to have ownership for rats and rodents!

Sing F Lau
LOL... if I'm a shepherd, I would most certainly love the problem of having goats joining my flock of sheep... if there are such goats around to do that! Chickens and rats/rodents are poor comparisons.

Maybe chickens and turkeys would be a comparable comparison with sheep and goats. If I were a poultry farmer, I would love to see uninvited guests of turkeys joining my chickens! I fatt datt loh! <lol>

In real life in the 1st century, shepherds keeping sheep and goats in their flock was normal and common!

In the parable, the Lord Jesus uses the sheep to represent those who are believing and minister to His people, and the goats those that are unbelieving, and thus failing to minister to His people.

Sheep and goats are in the same contrast between the wise and the foolish virgins, and the faithful and unfaithful servants. This is plain and obvious. 

eSun
Just wonder if Judas Iscariot was a goat when he decided to betray the Lord?

Sing F Lau
Judas' betrayal of the Lord Jesus Christ is wicked and despicable indeed.

While many believe Judas' act to be the most despicable, I don't. I fear there are so many pastors and teachers who are FAR WORSE than Judas in their betrayal of Jesus Christ. Judas sold Jesus Christ for 30 pieces of silver because he was disillusioned and disappointed that Jesus was not going to be a political messiah to set up a political kingdom, and have Judas himself be the Finance Minister!

Others sell Him for filthy lucre of a far greater amount for preaching their own lies and fables, thus betraying their Lord in a far worse sense.

Judas' betrayal is far less serious, comparatively. He had too little light. There are many Judas in Christ's kingdom!!!

Charles Page
Paul was the chief of sinners!

Charles Page
Judas can't hold a candle to Paul!!!

Sing F Lau
Judas did hold the money bag! <lol>

eSun
So was Judas Iscariot a goat whilst he lived? Is he found amongst the elders encircled the great & mighty throne of God praising Him?

eSun
If there is an answer to the above then we can expect the same destiny for those earlier described as filthy pastors and teachers.

[They are not filthy pastors and teachers, they are polished pastors and teachers who betrayed Christ because of their love for filthy lucre!  How words are so easily twisted by woolliness. It's frightening indeed! sing]

Charles Page
the question is, was Judas an elect? If he is of the elect He will be in Heaven!

Charles Page
Being a goat or sheep has nothing to do with the election.

[AMEN. It has to do with discipleship among Christ's flock. when sincere people start with sheep/elect-goats/nonelect presupposition, they have gone off tangent from the start. sing]

Sing F Lau
Good questions; and they always help towards getting closer to the truth. Questions that can expose the inconsistencies and contradictions in an interpretation will save us from errors.

Your question "So was Judas Iscariot a goat whilst he lived?" turned my mind to what Apostle Paul so solemnly declared in his epistle to the Galatians... --- "8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

I'm not aware if Apostle Paul was as solemn as this in another matter. Preaching another gospel other than that which has been preached by the Apostle Paul is a betrayal of Jesus Christ FAR WORSE than the despicable betrayal committed by Judas Iscariot!

Judas' love and hope for an earthly messianic kingdom most certainly caused him to behave like a goat - unbelieving in the kingdom of heaven, and thus failing to minister to those who belong to it. Instead, in his misguided zeal, he betrayed the King of the kingdom of heaven!

eSun
Two questions:
Question 1. Beg my ignorance, where is the text specifically mentioning Judas Iscariot was disillusioned that there was no earthly messianic kingdom of which he desired to be a finance minister of this earthly kingdom?

Question 2: According to your understanding goats are elected people of God who lived miserably with much disbelief and when they repented whilst still living then they become sheep. Apostle Peter was a goat when he denied the Lord thrice but later became a sheep. Right? But he repented and the Lord reinstated him because he was a chosen people of God. As we know our earthly body still have the remnant of sins; and I fear to depart from this world as a believing goat. I beg to God to be merciful so that I breathe my last breath as an elected sheep and not as an elected goat. But my sinful dwelling self is at war daily. How? Can anyone help me to be an assured elected sheep of Christ rather than an elected goat? But then James 2:14-26 stated clearly in gist faith without work is dead faith. So then do goats have good works to illustrate faith? If these goats already have works to shine forth faith in the Lord Jesus Christ then why call these creatures as goats? They are sheep!!

Sing F Lau
"... where is the text specifically mentioning Judas Iscariot was disillusioned that there was no earthly messianic kingdom of which he desired to be a finance minister of this earthly kingdom?"

There is much evidence that the greater part of the Jewish people was looking forward to an earthly messianic kingdom... and this carnal expectation was very alive with the apostles for a long time. Their minds were still on it when they asked, "When they, therefore, were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" It was an error that took a long time to dislodge from their mind.

In Matthew 20 - KJT
20 ¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

She too was expecting an earthly kingdom to be established by Jesus the Messiah, and wanted her sons to have positions of great power and honour in the earthly kingdom.

In Luke 24 we hear the words of two very downcast and disillusioned disciples... for their trust in an earthly theocratic kingdom was completely crushed and busted by the events that had happened...

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

That's the general background on the popular expectation of an earthly kingdom to be established by the promised Messiah!

It was very likely that the truth of the spiritual nature of the messianic kingdom Christ has established, and its implications, were early understood and grasped by Judas. Such a Messiah and the messianic kingdom were repugnant and contrary to all his expectations, and benefits.

Judas was one of the 12, and was the one who had the money bag (Joh 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein) - naturally he would think of himself as the finance minister in the earthly messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ.

And the betrayal requires a motive... maybe others can offer a more credible motive!
I don't know whether this answers your question.

Sing F Lau
I gather that the gist of Q2 lies in this sentence... "Can anyone help me to be an assured elected sheep of Christ rather than an elected goat?"

God elected, and save a people through His Son Jesus Christ alone, thus fitting them for eternal glory. [This is eternal salvation by the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, freely applied to each elect at God's own appointed and approved time; fitting each one for eternal glory.]

1 Pet 1:
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We shall enter that inheritance at the general resurrection to glory.

God elected a people... not sheep and goats. Sheep and goats are pictures used in the parable to describe believing obedient and the unbelieving disobedient among His redeemed people.

Sheep don't turn into goats, and goats don't turn into sheep - but God's children can most certainly behave like sheep, and goats... as presented to us in Mt 25.

Apostle Peter gave an excellent answer to your inquiry: "give all diligence to make your calling and election sure..."

2 Pet 1
5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

There are likely other things in Q2 that I have not answered. 

Sing F Lau
got to go... Wed evening Bible study at 8pm. 

eSun
As you have said God's children do not turn into goats or sheep but rather their behaviour viz a viz their obedience to Christ. In the case of Judas Iscariot can you conclude Judas was an elect with a 'goatly' demeanour when he turned against the Lord? Today despite being a 'goatly' elect, Judas Iscariot is in heaven with our sovereign God! Can you be certain Judas Iscariot's resting place? So also the many misguided teachers and pastors who taught wrongly. They are wrong doctrinally but we cannot judge them for at the present moment of time as they are 'goatly' but surely in due time they shall become 'sheeply'. Many of us in the past behaved 'goatly' but God opened our eyes and we become as 'sheeply' and we are certain our rest is in heaven. So generally speaking let no one speak ill anyone who 'sin' by way action (teaching wrong doctrine) or practice. We cannot for sure by the reasoning speak against our God's elects, right?

[A child of God DOES NOT revert back and forth as "sheep-goat...sheep-goat" throughout his life. They are terms describing his overall life.] 

Sing F Lau
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing." Amen!

We are given a wonderful glimpse of the glorious heaven prepared for us! 

Sing F Lau
You have gone a lot further. I'm only dealing with the text in Mt 25:31-46 where the sheep and goats are mentioned.

I have no interest to speak ill of anyone, or desiring to decide who are sheep and goats among the Lord's flock. I sincerely pray that all are like the people represented by the sheep in Mt 25:31-46! I do want to be numbered and counted among such, I sure do!

I do however want to rightly divide the word of truth in that passage, and I am convinced the goats represent NOT the non-elect (as is so popularly understood) but the unbelieving elect; and were judged, like the foolish virgins, and the unfaithful servants.

You inquired about Judas... and the hideousness of his act of betraying his Lord, and I suggested that given the little light that he had, his betrayal is relatively minor compared to the betrayal committed by others who had so much light, with the complete Scriptures in their hand. 

eSun
However, I have yet to be guided to whether Judas Iscariot was an elected goat and now worshipping God in the Celestial City or not. Wonder aloud - I know where is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I know where is Paul our dear brother. However, can I lovingly call Judas Iscariot a dear brother though he was 'goat'? Is he also numbered with the above-mentioned saints in Heaven?

[If you can accept the Bible's teaching on the intermediate state - the temporal state between death and resurrection - your most profound and difficult (I suspect they are all rhetorical) questions are solved. Judas Iscariot, though an elect redeemed by Christ, is in the temporal intermediate state of hell, awaiting his resurrection to glory at the return of Christ. ]

Sing F Lau
Understanding the sheep and goats in Mt 25:31-46 as speaking of God's children among the Jews who are believing and unbelieving in the Messiah the Lord Jesus Christ makes me, I and myself to be sober in all things and walk circumspectly.

Since you are interested in Judas Iscariot's case, I will answer your questions in light of my understanding of Mt 25:31-46.

Judas Iscariot is one of the elect of God. [This is an issue much debated... my understanding of free grace has made it less difficult for me to acknowledge that he is one among the elect of God, but unbelieving, like many among God's children! ] He wasn't an elected goat. The elect is NOT SPOKEN of in terms of goat. His unbelief in Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah caused him to be described as a goat.]

His unbelief and betrayal are no worse than those to whom Apostle Peter preached on the day of Pentecost and was converted... 

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

They by their wicked hands have crucified and slain Jesus Christ! Judas' betrayal is relatively minor compared with what Apostle Peter charged his hearers with. Judas was so filled with remorse for what he did... but people just write off his REPENTANCE as cheapskate remorse... "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, REPENTED himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders."

Believing Judas to be among the goat, he would be where Mt 25:31-46 tell us where goats are... UNTIL the day of resurrection, when he must be delivered up, be glorified, and enter the eternal inheritance that Christ, His and mine Redeemer had secured for him.

Keep asking Brother. I like your questions!!!

Minor Disregard of a Plain Fact, Major Mess up of a Divine Order!

 

December 8, 2013
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10201125267389290

Minor Disregard of a Plain Fact, Major Mess up of a Divine Order!

In his "Systematic Theology" Dr Robert L. Reymond discussed the "order of salvation" in Chapter 19, pg 703ff.

He quoted Rom 8:28-30, and rightly interjected verse 30 with... these emphases:

- [τούτους, toutous - the same group he predestinated, not another group or part of that group]
- [τούτους, toutous - the same group he called, not another group or part of that group]
- [τούτους, toutous - the same group he justified, not another group or part of that group].

Then he went to great length to demonstrate and justify the LOGICAL order of effectual calling, justification, and glorification. All very good!!!

However, he failed ABYSMALLY to see the PLAIN and OBVIOUS implications of his own repeated observations above... that the object of all those divine activities are not only CO-EXTENSIVE, but also the SAME and COMPLETE number of God's elect, i.e. as many as were foreknown and predestinated to eternal glory, i.e. not one more and not one less!

Failing to note this plain and obvious truth, the order of salvation he constructed in the rest of the whole chapter is full of self-contradictions and inconsistencies.

Breaking up that 5-link divine chain of the pure gold of Ophir, and adding to it all those other links of wood, hay and stubble is not only foolish, it also destroys that chain, and cut off untold number of those foreknown and predestinated from ever reaching their destined glorification!!! Those links added to the chain are plainly INCAPABLE of embracing the complete number elect of God. If a Calvinist doesn't see this plain point, then he has a bigger problem to deal with!

UNTIL the reformed and calvinistic theologians begin to distinguish clearly the eternal salvation by the monergistic activities of God from the DISTINCT temporal salvation through the obedience of God's children to God's will, they will forever be stuck in the mire of confusion and synergistic salvation.

Until they realize that there are FIVE DISTINCT aspects of salvation, they will always be plagued with confusion and contradiction.

The five distinct aspects are:
- eternal salvation decreed by God in eternity,
- eternal salvation accomplished by Christ at the cross,
- eternal salvation applied to each elect personally at effectual calling,
- temporal salvation experienced through conversion by the gospel ministry,
- eternal salvation consummated at resurrection to eternal glory.

 They are the Decretal, the Legal, the Vital, the Practical, and Final aspects of salvation. All the aspects apply equally to EVERY elect except the Practical aspect; there are elect who do not experience temporal salvation by the gospel ministry.

==========================

Comments

Bill Allen
Very good observation Brother Sing.

Sing F Lau
Saved in what sense, Brett?
{One Brett Noll commented but deleted them.]

Do you understand that question?
I know YOUR answer to your rhetorical question!!!
Go and read this simple article...
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/questions/paul-salvation.php

Read it with a learner's mind, not as a smart aleck theologian's mind.
LETGODBETRUE.COM When Was Paul Saved?

Marty-Sandy Smith
[Romans 8:30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Let us set aside, for the moment, debates about the meaning of foreknowledge and predestination. Romans 8:30 teaches us that all of the called are justified, and all of the justified are glorified. If, at the final judgment, an individual is not glorified, then that individual was never called.