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The elder shall serve the younger.
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. |
The purpose of God according to the election
Rom 9
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Here is the historical event referred to in Gen 25
21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
What was the election about?
- The preeminence of the younger over the older. The elder was bypassed, the younger chosen.
When did this election take place?
- When the twins were still in the womb; between their conception and birth.
The Scriptures speak of different elections. For example:
Mat 20:16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."
- Here, many are called to labour in the vineyard, but only a few chosen to the special office of Apostles.
Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
- Here, many of God's children among the Jews were called out by the gospel, but few chosen to enjoy its blessings. Many were blinded. Read Rom 12:32.
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A related discussion here:
Esau and Jacob, "godly line" and their election.
Esau and Jacob, "godly line" and their election.
An interesting thought crosses my mind as a result of a good question asked by a Brother.
What do you think?
A brother inquired:
"But then I ponder aloud. Esau is born under the roof of Issac, the seed of the godly line (is the doctrine of the godly line still applicable here now?), and my question, "is Esau saved unto eternity?..... "
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Brother, when I say that I love good questions, it is not because I have all the answers. It is because it makes me study the Scriptures again.
Brother, when I say that I love good questions, it is not because I have all the answers. It is because it makes me study the Scriptures again.
Your question about the godly line is very interesting - "is the doctrine of the godly line still applicable here now?"
I understand "godly line" as a strict reference to that very narrow genealogical line that connects Jesus the Son of God back to Adam the son of God, Luke 3:38. [I believe the "godly line", strictly speaking, terminated at the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.] In that "godly line," each link (each individual, like Jacob in that "godly line) may have many sons and daughters but only one specific male offspring of God's OWN SOVEREIGN and GRACIOUS CHOICE carried on the line until it terminated at Jesus the Christ. The rest of the offsprings (whether they were among God's elect or not, are not the focus of the biblical account, except for the descendants of the chosen nation of Israel.
In human tradition, it is the eldest male seed that carries on the line. In Divine providence, it is the one by God's sovereign choice - the human choice is by-passed to emphasize the free and sovereign grace of God.
Perhaps we should see the case of Esau and Jacob from that light... in the CONTEXT of election to be the NEXT LINK in the "godly line", and NOT in the context of election unto eternal salvation. As far as Esau's right to be the link that continued the "godly line" he was rejected by God. That much is clear. However, we so often see the matter from the perspective of eternal salvation. Seeing the case from the latter perspective CHANGE the whole issue completely.
Is Esau saved unto eternity? I don't know. Some are cocksure! From what I read from the biblical account, Esau is no worse than Jacob; in fact, he was put in much favourable light. Jacob was a schemer and deceiver nearly all his life!!! Esau has his grievous faults.
Esau's EXCLUSION from being a link in that "godly line" is OFTEN CARELESSLY equated as Esau's EXCLUSION from the election unto eternal salvation. Those who advocate the latter need to prove it from the Scriptures.
Well, I thank you for asking the question and making me think about this matter this morning. THANKS.
Adam
Bro Sing, if we view Rom 9 and the exclusion of Esau as a non-eternal matter, then consistency would demand that we also view the election mentioned there as a non-eternal matter. There are those who do teach it that way and see it only as the election of nations (from which the redeemer would come) and not of individuals. Is this what you are trying to say?
Charles
Esau's EXCLUSION from being a link in that "godly line" is OFTEN CARELESSLY equated as Esau's EXCLUSION from the election unto eternal salvation.
The only thing that God states about Esau before they were born is that the older will serve the younger. There is no reprobation of Esau in that only a prophetic statement. It has nothing to do with God saying he hates Esau and loves Jacob.
This is clearly eternal salvation and temporal salvation demonstrated in this Genesis account. The statement of God loving Jacob and hating Esau is the response of God to their respective "lifestyle conversions"
In fact, as you have stated Sing, this love for Jacob is perhaps a tongue-in-cheek statement from God saying "I could just as well love Esau and hate Jacob!"
It has nothing to do with election as is so popularly promoted. Praise the Lord, they both are elect! Isn't that good news?
Hosea says Jacob wept to get his way with angels and God had a controversy with him over that!
Sing F Lau
Bro Adam, I believe in Rom 9-11, Apostle Paul is dealing with a deep mystery WHY many of God's children (therefore regenerated elect) among the Jews were unbelieving concerning the gospel, THAT IS, why only a remnant among them was chosen to enter into the gospel rest. It was in that context, that Paul marshaled in the appropriate example of Esau and Jacob. Paul was not dealing with the non-elect among the Jews.
Dellis
From Jacob came the Godly line of Judah?
Because Esau was hated, did this mean, he and the continuing line after him were hated? Because Esau was hated, does this mean, he couldn't be saved?
Sing F Lau
Bro Peter, if "saved by grace through faith" you mean eternal salvation freely bestowed upon us, based solely upon the faithfulness/fidelity of Christ work of redemption, when we were dead in trespasses and sins, then I concur with you.
What were the promises implied, and of what did he disqualify himself? Thanks.
(Peter deleted his post later.)
Adam
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever. 5And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel. - Mal 1:2-5
Sing F Lau
Brother Dellis, Jacob and Judah (both being not firstborn of their fathers!) - were both individual links IN the ONE godly line that ran from Adam to Jesus.
Esau was "hated" only in the sense that his birth right as the first born was bypassed by God's sovereign purpose.
"I hated Esau" is often mistakenly understood as him being consigned to eternal damnation.
Sing F Lau
Bro Adam, that's a good passage. The intent and focus of the passage are to point out, how DESPITE being not the firstborn, Jacob the younger brother was so loved by God... a fact that greatly aggravates the ungratefulness of Jacob.
Isaac blessed Jacob in this manner:
28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother’s sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.
Isaac blessed Esau in this manner:
39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;
40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.
Bryan
Brother Sing, I see from your post above that you are not sure if Esau is elect or not... But I say unto you does the Lord hate his elect? It is clear from Paul in Romans and from Malachi that Esau was not saved. I do not believe that being born into a family is any assurance of salvation ever. (Sorry, using speech to text on my tablet... Didn't notice the misspellings)
Sing F Lau
Brother Bryant, you asked, Does the Lord hate His elect?
That's an interesting rhetorical question, worthy of careful consideration.
It depends on what you mean by that.
Is God's sovereignly PREVENTING some of His children from seeing the gospel truth in Jesus Christ an instant of hating the elect? I inquire to understand what you are saying.
Rom 11:
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Is depriving the firstborn of his birthright an instant of God "hating" Esau?
Or did the hating of Esau lie in God's election of Jacob to eternal salvation, and bypassing of Esau unto eternal damnation?
I'm asking to learn.
Adam
One can easily get confused in all the twists and turns of a conversation. I agree that Rom 11 deals with the unbelief of the elect Jews which you quoted above, not chapter 10. Let me ask a plain question so as to understand more clearly what you have written. Does Rom 9 teach that the man Jacob was elected for eternal salvation? (Predestination) or Does it teach that God's election of Jacob merely signified that the Chosen One would be born from his body?
Sing F Lau
Thanks, I've edited the mistake.
You asked, "Does Rom 9 teach that the man Jacob was elected for eternal salvation? (Predestination) or Does it teach that God's election of Jacob merely signified that the Chosen One would be born from his body?
I believe it is the LATTER - Jacob was elected to be the NEXT LINK in the "godly line" that would eventually lead to the promised Messiah. So, the election is not unto eternal salvation, but that is the most common and popular idea).
Each election has its own specific end, depending on the context. One of them is election unto eternal salvation.
Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Note a few things:
- children not yet born, BUT ALREADY conceived in the womb when the said election took place... the preeminence of the younger over the elder!
- the purpose of God according to THAT election might stand, superseding the purpose of man where the 1st born has the preeminence.
- the implication of that election is specifically this: the elder shall serve the younger, and NOT the elder shall be bypassed in eternal salvation but the younger chosen unto eternal salvation.
- There is no unrighteousness with God in electing the younger to have preeminence over the firstborn!!!
Sing F Lau
Bro Eng, concerning Judas Iscariot... you asked "Is the son of perdition, Judas Iscariot seated amongst the godly cloud of witnesses that cheer every step we take on earth? " Your question is obviously rhetorical, requiring a negative answer.
Judas Iscariot is, humanly speaking, one of the most tragic cases... an APOSTLE who betrayed his Lord. Why? Because of disillusionment based on some preconceived, ignorant and erroneous ideas... that is, Jesus came to usher in an earthly kingdom of which Judas would become the Finance Minister!!! Judas may be a traitor ... I fear that there are worse traitors than Judas AMONG God's children... who betray Jesus in more sophisticated ways... for example, those who are so learned and enlightened (like many theologians and doctors of divinity) but teaching errors that are injurious the Person and Name of our blessed Lord Jesus Christ.
"The son of perdition" is a very strong term... Joh 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
So, look at this verse where the term is found. Just some plain observations...
- Judas was one among "them", the pronoun indicating the 12 Apostles.
- Christ has kept THEM in God's name, them including Judas Iscariot, until the appointed time.
- Judas was ONE AMONG the twelve Apostles whom God has given to Christ, and he kept them by the Father's power and authority.
- None of the 12 apostles was lost EXCEPT Judas, the son of perdition.
- And Judas fell from his HIGH and UNIQUE office of apostleship... thus the strong term "THE son of perdition."
- Judas' fall from the high and unique office of apostleship was not because Jesus could not keep him, but was necessary so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus, the all-knowing Son of God Himself picked Judas to be one of His 12 disciples. God gave Judas to be one of Jesus' 12 Apostles.
Did Jesus make the horrid mistake of choosing a non-elect to be his special disciple... an Apostle?
Or did He know all along, and picked Judas, that what had been prophesied would be fulfilled?
Properly understanding pure grace, and the distinction between eternal salvation and temporal salvation enables a man to see things from another perspective. I'm just studying.
Hulan
Was Judas Iscariot a child of God? Jesus stated in Matt. 26:24 that it would have been good if he had not been born.
Sing F Lau
Thanks, Elder Hulan Bass.
Lots of questions can be asked!
Mt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Please tell, with your great mind for analysis -
- in what sense it would have been good for Judas if he had not been born?
- it would have been good with respect to who, himself, or others?
Is Jesus saying that it would have been good if Judas never existed, not even conceived, or conceived but never born to commit such heinous and treasonous acts?
But isn't the birth of Judas, and his acts NECESSARY for the fulfillment of the prophecy? (John 17:12)
