Dead faith is real faith but fruitless faith!

Lively tree but fruitless...therefore dead as far as fruitfulness is concerned!
Dead faith is real faith but fruitless faith!

A good brother asserted:
"Works ALWAYS follow Justification" [emphasis original].
=======

If works ALWAYS follow Justification, then James has wasted his time dealing with a purely hypothetical fictional irrelevant non issue!!!

The simple truth and sad reality is that there is true faith without work - that's a real problem among God's children. That is why James has to deal with that SPECIFIC problem!

Jesus Christ dealt with it as well in the parable of the sower. (That parable is about FRUITFUL discipleship, not what a man must do to secure eternal salvation!!!)

Apostle Peter dealt with it too, in 2Pet 1
5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If a child of God does NOT add to his faith those things, he will be barren, his faith is fruitless, i.e. dead.

Dead faith is not FALSE faith; dead faith is TRUE faith but fruitless. So many foolishly assume that dead faith is false faith!

Nilo

LET ME TEST YOUR ARTICLE brother:
Doesn't that imply that we will behold fruitless Christians in heaven?
Doesn't that imply that we have people today who have the Holy Spirit but he is dormant or it implies that the Holy Spirit actively convicts but fails to produce fruitful works on that man of faith?

[Nilo, let me test your question - doesn't your first smart-alecky question imply that you get to heaven conditioned by your fruitfulness? See, I can ask such question too! ~~ sing]

Sing F Lau

Let's put aside all your multiple implications for a moment, and deal with biblical fact first. We will consider them later one by one.
Let me test whether you have started to deal with the biblical passage at all.

Fact: James did deal with the problem of faith without work his epistle.
Q. Was James dealing with a real problem among his recipients, or just a fictional, hypothetical, imaginary problem that has no relevance to his hearers?
Q. Who was James dealing with - those with faith or those still dead in trespasses and sins?

Nilo

A 1 = James was dealing with a real problem among his recipients
A 2 = James was dealing with those who have already professed faith in Christ.

Sing F Lau

It helps to know that we are agreed on those basic points.
So, it is established that there is faith WITHOUT works among God's children. Only God's children are capable of faith in Christ - I assume you agree with that.

What are some implications from your A1 and A2?

Nilo

A2 becomes a key issue. James could be dealing with professed believers but he does not know who are true believers

Sing F Lau

'Professed believers' is a modern problem read into the NT! You don't have 'professed believers' problem when professing Christ is very costly... and may cost you your life!

This 'professed believers' stuff is a problem when and where Christianity is a STATE religion when it is profitable to be associated with the state religion!

James did not have to deal with "professed believers" that are not God's children.

Nilo

Judas was an example of a professed believer, not a true believer but professing faith in Christ.

Sing F Lau

Interesting point.... but doesn't alter the simple plain fact that James knew VERY WELL who exactly he was addressing:

Jas 1:2 My BRETHREN, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved BRETHREN.
Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved BRETHREN, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jas 2:1 My BRETHREN, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved BRETHREN, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my BRETHREN, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jers

Hi Nilo, you mean Judas was not a true apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Nilo

he was a true apostle, but he was never part of the family of GOD

Nilo
BRO SING, when I address or write anyone in our church, I address them as BRETHREN, although I am not sure that all of us are saved.

Charles

Most Southern Baptist pastors believe only 10-15% of their 'brethern' are truly saved!!! However my belief is that 90% or more of their brethern are regenerate and not told from the pulpit of their status. Now, less, much less, than 10% have adequete temporal salvation!

Robert

It is hard enough for me to strive to kill the old man in me everyday then to worry about what someone else is. I know that there are Judas's in the church but that is God's business not mine, unless I am a leader in the church. Jesus allowed Judas to remain until He was done with him.

Penny

I think Judas was a child of God and I believe Jesus loved him! How can a person perform miracles by the power of God and not be His?? I also feel it is very hypocritical and against the doctrines of grace to think Judas was not a child of God because he betrayed Jesus! If he was a dead alien sinner, why would he have felt so sorry for what he did that he killed himself? Where did that remorse come from? Where did that repentance comes from, if not from God? He would of spent that money and not try to give it back! I also don't understand how he could be "a true apostle" and not be a child of God?? For the evidence we have that Judas is a child of God but was overtaken in sin is "Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

It's not possible Judas could be spiritual at any time in his life and not be a child of God. Because one who is not born of God's spirit is not His and unable to perceive or demonstrate spiritual things. I think 'professed belief' is when we say we believe with our mouths but deny Him with our actions. Not in word only but also in deed! And the deed is a struggle for us all!

Charles
Robert, Jesus does not use people in the way you referenced. What a shameful thing to say!

Sing F Lau
Nilo @ "BRO SING, when I address or write anyone in our church, I address them as BRETHREN, although I am not sure that all of us are saved."
=========
VAST difference between you and James.
One write under the Divine Inspiration...
The other write with civil courtesy!

We must not measure James with Nilo...
we must measure Nilo against inspired James!

Scriptures alone at work.

Sing F Lau
A barren apple tree is no less a living apple tree still... it doesn't cease as an apple tree or mutate into an apricot tree!

A barren womb is a true living womb still though it is fruitless...
It is 'dead' only in the sense that it is fruitless.

The Bible states, and warns that God's children without works is a HARSH REALITY.

However, many insist that such cannot be so! They probably have sentimental notions about conversion.

Carl
We are not sure if the BRETHREN are really saved, we are just a human with a human mind. Our God is omniscient God Who knows the heart and mind of man. There is no problem with God if BRETHREN have FAITH in Him, all they have to do is to show their faith by their WORKS to other.

Sing F Lau
Hi Carl, glad you are thinking. It is commendable when young men START TO THINK... and not just regurgitate the ideas fed to them by their misguided confused teachers!!!

Supposing they are not really saved, and therefore still dead in trespasses and sins, then wouldn't it be really stupid to exhort them to show their works. It is the height of folly to exhort spiritually dead men to show spiritual works!!! JUST PLAIN STUPID - just being frank, not meant to offend!

It is like exhorting a dead man to show some movement to show that he is alive! You see the point???

It makes far more plain sense that there are living people who are PLAIN LAZY and not working.... and such are exhorted to work! There are lots of living but work-less people around... just look around you in Gen San.

Same in the spiritual realm!!! That's the problem James was dealing with among the recipients of his letter.

Robert
Charles I would refr you to Proverbs 16:4 also Romans 9:17

Robert
Penny I would refer you to Psalm 109:1-20 also I think Jesus himself called Judas a devil see John 6:70 I am not God but i know God uses the wicked how he will and when he will to accomplish his purposes. Also I would read Matthew 7:16:23 I may be wrong but I know that natural man does now right from wrong but is willfully ignorant see Romans 1:19-32

Robert
Charles also read Revelation 17:16-18

I agree that their are unfruitful children of God and there are religious natural men who create God in their image where that ends or begins I leave to God to judge not me.

Nilo
The word "brethren" is a general word used by the APOSTLES. Gal_2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

How do you think PAUL addressed these brethren before they were discovered as false?

When an Apostle addresses the church, he said, to the saints which are at ...., but he knows there are a mix of brethren there. That is the same tone that James addresses his warning to

Sing F Lau
When the Apostle Paul speaks of 'false brethren' who exactly did he refer to, do you know? What does the context demand? Are the 'false brethren' God's children or are they not? In what sense are the brethren 'false'?

Is he referring to pagan or is he referring to God's children among the Jews who were still misguided about the mosaic laws in the new covenant???????? Tell us if you know the answer. Thanks.

Be cured of that anachronism. The 'professed believers' problem did not exist in the early church... the situation was TOOOOOOOOOO harsh for such to develop.

'Professed believers' may be easy to find in the RC Philippines... not so in a oppressive place like Saudi!

Nilo
Oh brother. In Egypt, there are already Copts who suffer for their faith. Suffering for a false faith does not make it of the truth.

Context demands that there were in every church, false brethren, who no one knows were false until they become dogs who return to their own vomits, or privily bring in damnable heresies. They are brethren until they leave to be made manifest that they were not of us. They are brethren until it becomes obvious that they were wolves in sheep's clothing and many shall follow their pernicious ways among the brethren in the churches.

Sing F Lau
You are quite mistaken and deceived by your 'professed believers' notion.
The false brethren of Gal 2:4 are clearly a reference to God's children among the Jew who ignorantly insisted upon the observance of the mosaic law by the Gentiles believers.

Suffering for a false faith is NO suffering for the faith... It is suffering for a lie!

Your statement "Suffering for a false faith does not make it of the truth" - is plain illogical.

Nothing can turn falsehood into truth!

BRETHREN who believe in falsehood are brethren still though they may need to be converted to the truth. You would insist that brethren who believe falsehood are no brethren at all, but are dogs!!!

See the difference yet?

Penny
No I don't see the difference... seems like beating a dead horse to me! This is an endless debate, is it fruitful? Are you edified? or satisfied? Does not the Bible explicit say to not worry about who is and who isn't going to heaven? Because that is not the point of the Bible.

The Bible is to to me about me, about what my flesh is capable of... It is for me to use to live from day to day. To look at and judge my own behavior according to God... not judge the world according to it for only the Lord has authority and wisdom and mercy to judge the world!

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

Sing F Lau
Penny, you don't sound sorry but irritated and, wilfully blind not to see the difference.

This is the question:
"Do brethren who believe in falsehood cease to be brethren, or they remain brethren who need to be converted to the truth?"
If you can't keep to the subject, find a better place to off load your fluffy feeling!

Nilo
Penny, it seems you need this thread more than all. Please stay with us and learn with us. You believe Judas, the son of perdition, whom Christ knew from the beginning was the devil and yet chose him, WAS a child of God?

Sing F Lau
Nilo and Penny, if you are interested in the identity of Judas, it is best to start a separate thread to deal with that.

It is better to keep to the present subject here - the fruitlessness of God's children. Is that just a fiction, or is that a harsh and sad reality among God's children?

Penny
Sing, in regards to your question two posts above... I would be very reluctant to count someone whom Jesus Christ suffered and died for, as not a brother. Regardless of what they do or did. Isn't that grace?
AND... who do you think is converting people? Other people?? Who taught you what you know?? Who showed you the truth?
Nilo, the Bible says that Satan 'entered into' Judas... and after he did the dirty deed... he left him.

Would Jesus wash the feet of Satan? Yet He washed Judas's feet and had communion with him.

But Sing is right... enough about the eternal destiny of Judas... who was called by name to follow Jesus.... Yet if we cannot recognize that that same evil spirit that overtook Judas can and does overtake us and/or our brethren from time to time then we are missing a huge part of what it means to be depraved.

Nilo
Penny, please read some more what the LORD said about JUDAS, because I think all of my comments about him are with scriptural warrant. But we can not post it now, out of respect to bro SING who wants to talk about JAMES, faith, works, and salvation

I still say, the way I use brethren today is the same that the APOSTLES used brethren during their time. There were a lot of presumptous brethren, brethren who just want the healing, who just want the benefits, but there are HOLY BRETHREN who really were believers.

Inside the churches, the brethren flourished before the persecutions, but when the killings for being a Christian began, the true ones remained while the false ones apostatized

Penny
Nilo... I will certainly read more about it! The Lord can open our eyes to something when we least expect it but HE promises He will... IF we seek Him! If you'd like to msg me with suggestions, I'd love to understand the truth better and in fullness! May the Lord bless us all to seek after His Spirit and Word!

Sing F Lau 
Nilo and Penny... I will begin a new thread with Judas in mind. Go there and leave your comment... Keep to the subject, else comments will be deleted.

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau?ref=tn_tnmn#!/photo.php?fbid=3651318317057&set=a.1182086067794.2026451.1097484914&type=1

Have you morphed, and become deformed?

Have you morphed? become deformed?
Have you departed from the faith of the forefathers?
Have you strayed from the Scriptures?
Don't say the Scriptures have strayed from you!!!

Whatever has happened!
Please give a credible explanation, if you can.

Andrew Fuller was roundly condemned as a heretic by the particular baptists of his time for the heresies he advocated.

But today Andrew Fuller is loved and adored as a great theologian by the modern reformed baptists for his great newfangled ideas, while those old particular baptists are denounced as hyper-c heretics!

John Gill was highly respected as the great theologian EVEN by other renowned Calvinistic theologians of of other denominations (Anglicans, Independents, Scots, etc) in his days, and later Charles H. Spurgeon proudly claimed him as his Mentor.

But today John Gill is roundly denounced by the Calvinistic baptists as a hyper-c heretic to be avoided, even though they love and adore Spurgeon.

Who have morphed and changed?
Who has degenerated and departed from the faith?

Where do you stand today - with the bloated degenerated offspring (represented by big-headed puffy mickey mouse), or with the austere healthy forefather (represented by a lean man)???

Find your root, and return to it!

https://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/photo.php?fbid=3689914121928&set=a.1182086067794.2026451.1097484914&type=1

Is faith the means of salvation, or evidence of salvation? What salvation?

"Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved.
Even so, the cart is the means, the farmer-given mean,
whereby the horse is pulled!!!

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau#!/photo.php?fbid=3679552142885&set=a.1182086067794.2026451.1097484914&type=1

September 5 at 6:00pm

Question:
Is faith the means of salvation, or evidence of salvation? What salvation?
Answer:
- Faith is a fruit and evidence of the eternal salvation freely bestowed upon a dead condemned sinner. Therefore faith is not and has never been, a means of eternal salvation. An effect of salvation can never be the means to that same salvation.
- Faith is a saving grace (a fruit of the Spirit worked in a child of God) whereby a child of God works out his own temporal salvation in obedience to His Father's will.

If you understand these two statements, you have saved yourself from a lot of confusion.

Sing F Lau
We often hear familiar words like these from Calvinists about the relationship between their faith and salvation:

"Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved. It is not a condition of salvation. Salvation is never conditional. There are no conditions we must fulfil in order to be saved..."

No, no, no! "Faith is NOT NOT NOT the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved.

Faith is the God-given means whereby the salvation that God has already freely...
and sovereign bestowed upon an elect is evidenced and manifested.

Only a man whom God has saved - effectually called to grace and salvation based on the redemptive work of Christ - is able to believe. The indwelling Holy Spirit has worked the grace of faith in his heart. That faith manifests itself in the acts of believing.

The salvation which is by God's free grace that enables a man to believe CANNOT possibly be the same salvation that is obtained through believing. Otherwise, there is a monumental logical fallacy! The effect CANNOT be one and the same as the cause!

Faith which is a fruit and effect of the salvation by God's free grace CANNOT possibly be the instrument to obtain that same salvation. Otherwise, there is a monumental logical fallacy!

The answer lies in rightly dividing the word of truth:
the ETERNAL salvation by God's free grace that enables a child of God to believe and the TEMPORAL salvation (relating to his well being in the life here and now) that is obtained through his believing are distinct and separate.

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Dellis

So, brother Sing, are you saying that regeneration precedes faith?

Danny

Romans chapter 10 is but one excellent example of this.

Mikal

Very good assessment Bro.! Regeneration is a work of the Spirit alone without any means!! Faith is that manifestation of that newly given spiritual life-giving evidence that that person was justified by the finished work of Christ alone!! The just shall live by faith!!

Jerry

 "Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved. It is not a condition of salvation. Salvation is never conditional. There are no conditions we must fulfil in order to be saved..."

If faith is the "God-given means" of salvation, then the salvation in question certainly is conditional...The Calvinist that made that statement contradicts himself when he states that faith is the means...then, that faith is the condition of salvation...Faith IS necessary for TEMPORAL salvation here in time. There is no means or conditions that God uses to save His people eternally...

Sing F Lau

Dellis, life must precede the activities of that life.
So, yes, regeneration must precede faith.
In addition, justification by God's free grace LOGICALLY PRECEDES regeneration. Justification by God's free grace gives divine warrant for regeneration. When righteousness is applied, condemnation is removed, and life is imparted!

The just (the justified by God's free grace) shall live by faith - is a concrete proof that justification precedes faith. The justified and regenerated are enables to believe.

And believing vindicates and evidences that justification and regeneration have taken place by God's free and sovereign grace.

Sing F Lau

"Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved. It is not a condition of salvation. Salvation is never conditional. There are no conditions we must fulfil in order to be saved..."
=======

If faith is the means whereby we are saved...
Then THE means MUST be utilized by those to whom it is given IN ORDER for them to be saved.
Doesn't that constitute a condition? By qualifying that the means is a God-given DOES NOT remove the logical fallacy or resolve the equivocation!

If the means is not utilized by the recipient, is there salvation for him? You see, salvation is, after all the shibboleth, STILL conditioned upon work, his utilization of that means!

If you don't utilize the means, there is no salvation!

This Calvinistic idea is no different from that of the Arminian. These cousins speak the same language!

Brian

I invite you to ponder over these things?

Sing F Lau

"Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved. It is not a condition of salvation. Salvation is never conditional. There are no conditions we must fulfil in order to be saved..."
========
The more I mull over these words, the more fallacious they appear.

So faith is the God-GIVEN means whereby we are saved.

That necessarily means God GAVE the means to those who are NOT YET SAVED by Him so that by utilizing the means given to them they are saved by God.

Question 1
What is the spiritual state of those that are not yet saved by God?
Why would God give such means to such?

Question 2
Can such utilize the means given to them whereby they are saved?

Brian

I agree faith is not a condition of salvation. It is the fruit of regeneration. I often say that. Faith though is not apart from regeneration. Faith has two parts. The potentia and the actus. Or, The potential and the activity. The potentia is the seed of faith which is not only a free and sovereign gift of God but is in effect regeneration and the new birth. As a consequence, we believe and confess Jesus Christ. That is the actus, the activity of faith. Regeneration comes to us to make us alive and then able to believe.

Mikal

Did John the Baptist have regenerating "faith" when filled with the Spirit in the womb? Faith does not regenerate, nor does any means including the Gospel! One must be made spiritual before spiritual activity ie faith and repentance can take place. Those of the spirit do mind the things of the spirit.

Rick

push, horsey, push!

Brian

Mikal, did you read my post?

Johnny

Guys, I'm new to this understanding of what God has done, have one question, regarding the spiritual aspect of what the physical man, and his thinking. In God's spiritual time, everything has always occurred (His predestination, His foreknowledge, His election). Yet, to humans, it seems significant, with our physical minds, these "events" in the proper order (election, regeneration, faith, baptism, repentance, etc.). Some ChurchReligions demand that these be proper (as "steps" to the entrance to a house, and that they be human actions), and add yet another work, "hearing," a scriptural term, to be sure. Does God decide who hears, and who does not?

Brian

Yes, He does. It is to him that hath an ear to hear, let him hear and these things are hidden from the wise and prudent for so it seemed good in God's sight.

Brian

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Brian

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Mikal

Yes, Mr Brian, I did read your post. The part I took issue with and maybe I misunderstood how you meant it. Let me quote:
"Faith has two parts. The potentia and the actus. Or, the potential and the activity. The potentia is the seed of faith which is not only a free and sovereign gift of God but is in effect regeneration and the new birth"

I take that to say that faith in its seed form or potential is the cause of or is regeneration. If I misunderstood I apologize. If that is what you meant, I stand by my disagreement. Faith on my part has nothing to do with the applying of spiritual life sovereignly by God.

Johnny

@Brian. Your answer helps, but doesn't everyone have an ear, to hear. The Word is not everywhere, nor has it been, since the First Century. What of folks without the blessing of being presented? Is that to be our concern?

Brian

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Mikal

Proverbs 20:12
12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.

Isaiah 44:18
They have not known nor understood:
for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Not everyone has hearing ears. They may have listening ears but they do not hear spiritually. God gives them that ability in regeneration.

Brian

Notice we are saved, not by faith, but through faith. Faith is conveyance vehicle through which salvation comes to us sovereignly. It is not our work. There is an aspect of faith that is our work but this is the consequence of regeneration via the planting of faith in our hearts. As a consequence, we believe. The essence of faith is that it is a gift of God. All men do not have because God does not give all men faith. I hope this is clearer for you.

Brian

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Johnny

@Brian. I concur, teaching is a "work," hearing is a "work," even belief, all are works. Yet, we are to love all men, and as much as possible be at peace. I've had trouble receiving an answer concerning the "works" when according to every teacher, something has to be done, for God to provide the grace you speak of. And those, without an opportunity to hear, well, that is my question. I am blessed. You are blessed. We've all "heard" by God, not by the "work" of any preacher or teacher. What of those not having heard, because of circumstance in time and place.

Brian

For it is impossible for a dead man to make a response in the physical world and so it correlates that a man dead spiritually cannot make a response spiritually either. For a man to respond spiritually he must first be made spiritually alive. This is a case in point where man is passive totally. He cannot make himself alive. For a man who is dead not even the call of the gospel as it is preached can break into his deadness. However, God, when and as He pleases gives life to that dead sinner and calls him by the gospel, to him that hath an ear to hear, to them that hunger, to them that thirst, to them that labour and are heavy laden etc. Notice these attributes are not the attributes of the dead but the living spiritually, hungering, thirsting, labouring, hearing. This is not only how the apostles and Christ preached the gospel but also how we ought to preach the gospel. And can the dead repent no, but being made alive we are indeed able to repent for it is God who worketh in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Johnny

@Brian. So, are those who have never heard, then, spiritually dead, by default, unless God gives him light. If so, the possibility must exist for light to be given, other than by the Word. If not, then answer why you and I are privileged among God's mortal creation, over others. For me, personally, I'm happy in the spiritual sense, and thankful.

Brian

The spiritually dead that are never made alive by God are non elect and reprobate. The elect are made alive by God in the day of His power. If we believe then we have been made alive by God and are indeed favoured not because we deserve it but because of Him who calls.

Brian

Why are we so favoured. Because God has made us to be stones in His temple and we each fit perfectly the place God has for us.

Johnny

@Brian. This explanation, of the elect, is the only one I have heard in a lifetime of searching the question. So, are you saying, the elect are among those who have not heard the Word, known of a monotheistic Creator, or spiritual consequence of sin?

Brian

The elect are chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. They are described as sheep. Christ finds them adds them to the church and saves them from their sins. They may have heard the word in a physical way many times but that word is only effectual and meaningful when they are born again, regenerate, spiritually alive.

Johnny

............ and if they have NEVER heard the Word? May they be regenerated, and chosen (elected) by God's spiritual predestination and foreknowledge, again, not from man, but from Him. I guess my question is does God reveal Himself, only by the written Word? He did with me.

Brian

I guess in the case of elect infants that die in infancy we could say they were regenerated without hearing the word for example those that die within the womb. Ordinarily it is the preaching of the gospel that is the usual mode of the saving operation of the spirit of God. There is a retracting formula in scripture that refers to this posting on next pos

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Johnny

Thanks, Brian. Will look for it. Enjoy the discussion, it is a lifetime question, that spiritual folks as yourself, and Sing, have given me answer to, through God of course.

Brian

If you want a really sound and deep web site with over 6000 pages of solid content see www.cprf.co.uk
CPRC Home Page

Sing F Lau

Brother Brian, thank you for studying Scriptures together.
Let me start off with your first comment. Much have been said... and I haven't read them. I wish to deal with something basic first.

Here is your comment:
=========
"I agree faith is not a condition of salvation. It is the fruit of regeneration. I often say that. Faith though is not apart from regeneration. Faith has two parts. The potentia and the actus. Or, The potential and the activity. The potentia is the seed of faith which is not only a free and sovereign gift of God but is in effect regeneration and the new birth. As a consequence we believe and confess Jesus Christ. That is the actus, the activity of faith. Regeneration comes to us to make us alive and then able to believe."
=======
Interesting! Does these make sense or do you see some stark inconsistencies???
1. Faith is the fruit of regeneration.
2. Faith has two parts - the potentia and the actus.
3. The potentia is the seed of faith... is in effect regeneration and the new birth.

THEREFORE, the fruit of regeneration has become regeneration itself!!!
The effect is ALSO one and the same as the cause itself.

Am I fair and right in concluding thus from your words above?

I suggest that your words [sic] betray serious confusion between regeneration, faith {potentia), and believing (actus)!!!

I understand the Scriptures to teach thus:
1. Regeneration: the divine free and sovereign activity of quickening an elect dead in trespasses and sins, based solely upon the righteousness of Christ applied to the elect personally by God's free and sovereign grace.

2. The Spirit of adoption within the child of God (regenerated elect) works in him the manifolds graces of salvation, INCLUDING the grace of faith.
- This is ENTIRELY different and distinct from the divine act of regeneration!!! (This is probably what you meant by the potentia part of faith.)
- Thus, faith is a grace worked WITHIN a child of God by the indwelling Spirit of God. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. It is an effect of salvation already bestowed. Therefore it CANNOT CANNOT be the means whereby an elect is saved by God.

3. By virtue of that grace of faith worked by the Spirit of God within the child of God, he is ENABLE to believe (an activity of faith - actus) the gospel of his salvation.

Faith (potentia), the God-given means (ACTUALLY worked within the heart of a child of God), is NOT NOT NOT the means whereby an elect is saved by God.

Both BOTH the Calvinists and their close cousins believe that popular fiction.

Faith (potentia), the God-given means, IS IS IS the means to manifest and evidence (through the actus of believing) that an elect HAS BEEN SAVED by God, freely and sovereignly.

To say that an effect of salvation is the God-given means whereby we are saved is a logical fallacy, and a theological shibboleth leading to confusion.

Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Sing F Lau

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
==========
Brother Brian, I seriously like this "King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)"
On this we are wholly agreed!

I invite you to read this little explanation on the POPULAR passage you have quoted above!
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html

Tell me what you think.
It is time to dig up an entrenched fiction and lie!
Things New and Old: Saved by grace through faith – whose faith?

Sing F Lau

Brian, you wrote: "Notice we are saved, not by faith, but through faith. Faith is conveyance vehicle through which salvation comes to us sovereignly. It is not our work. There is an aspect of faith that is our work but this is the consequence of regeneration via the planting of faith in our hearts. As a consequence we believe. The essence of faith is that it is a gift of God. All men do not have because God does not give all men faith. I hope this is clearer for you."
=================

Dear brother, let me suggest to you THE solution to harmonize the inevitable logical fallacies inherent in the typical Calvinistic notion encapsulated in your words above. I do understand where you are coming from... and I do appreciate your great attempt at reconciling the place of faith (potentia) and believing (actus) in their relation to the salvation by God's free and sovereign grace.

I struggled through those logical fallacies for a long time until I learn to rightly divide the word of truth from the Scriptures.

Ok, back to the points in your comments.

There is no need to qualify that we are not saved by faith. That's not the point of dispute.
There is great need to explain 'we are saved through faith.' - because this is where the problem lies.

It is true, faith (potentia) is not our work... it is the work of the Spirit, a fruit of the Spirit. He works this saving grace in the child of God. This saving grace DOES NOT save, this saving grace is an EFFECT of salvation already bestowed, freely and sovereign by God.

So, how are we saved through faith? The Calvinists say, "Faith is conveyance vehicle through which salvation comes to us sovereignly." By that, the Calvinists means "Believing (actus part of faith) is conveyance vehicle through which salvation comes to us sovereignly." Am I right?

You are still STUCK with the logical fallacy! Believing is an effect and fruit of salvation already freely and sovereign bestowed upon us. That being so, it CANNOT CANNOT CANNOT be at the same time be the conveyance vehicle through which the SAME salvation comes to us sovereignly."

But if you protest and insist that the faith spoken of is the potentia part of faith, you still have the logical fallacy. Faith (potentia) is ALSO an effect of salvation already bestowed freely and sovereign by God. Believing (actus) is a manifestation of Faith (potentia).

And please be very clear in our mind that BELIEVING IS WORK... the Lord Jesus Himself declares so. John 6:28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

There is indeed a salvation that is through the means of believing. Believing saves... repenting saves... obeying saves. The works of God's children save them. There is a salvation that God's children (ALREADY saved with eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, applied to them by the free and sovereign grace of God) must work out for themselves. And believing is one such work. And believing is work indeed! Believing requires the activities of reading and hearing and understanding... these are works.

But the salvation that God's children must work out for themselves is completely distinct and different from the salvation that God, through His Son's redemptive work and applied by His Spirit, freely and sovereignly bestowed upon each of His elect personally.

If you rightly DIVIDE and DISTINGUISH the two salvation, the inherent logical fallacies in the Calvinistic notion is somewhat resolved.
Salvation that is the CAUSE... and salvation that is secondary effects are two different and distinct entities.

Faith is the God-given means to the latter... through believing the truth of one salvation by God's free grace, a child of God is saved from lies and superstition and fictions and fables, he experiences assurance, joy, peace, hope, etc.

Faith as the God-given means is an effect of the former, and has NOTHING to do with being saved with the former.

May our Lord grant you understanding.

Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology. Thanks for listening.

Brian

Sing F Lau, I think you need to read the rest of what I have said above. You would have saved yourself some writing. I suppose from yours and my point of view long answers do not tie us down to specifics but are sometimes required and we can miss vital points through longevity. I will take only a few points at a time and that way we can more accurately answer one another better. In searching your answer to me there are a few things I would like you to substantiate for me that this is what you are saying: 1. That faith is not a gift of God. 2. That all men head for head are not duty bound to repent. 3. That repentance saves. I am enjoying this interaction.

Sing F Lau

I like it when people ask specific questions, instead of presuming or speculating! I ask very specific questions too. I will answer your questions.

But i will repeat this question:
Is faith (actus) the means by which we are saved, or is it the means by which we evidenced that we have been saved by God WITHOUT means?

1. That faith is not a gift of God.
- Faith is NOT a gift in the sense that salvation is a gift.
- Faith is a gift of God in the specific sense that it is a saving grace worked in the child of God by the Holy Spirit.
- Gift comes from WITHOUT. A saving grace is worked from WITHOUT.

2. That all men head for head are not duty bound to repent.
- All sinners are duty bound to repent. They are God's creatures bound by the covenant of creation. God's creatures are duty bound by the covenant of creation to repent of their sins and obey God as their Creator.

- All the children of God are duty bound to repent and believe in the gospel of their salvation. They are God's redeemed bound by the covenant of redemption. God's redeemed are duty bound by the covenant of redemption to repent and believe in their Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ .

3. That repentance saves.
- Yes, repentance saves... not from the eternal damnation that their sins deserved in the justice of God. Christ and His redemptive work ALONE has saved from that to the uttermost.
- Repentance from sins save a child from the temporal judgment upon sins here in this life. Repentance from errors to truth saves a child of God from the devil's lies and errors and logical fallacies, ecclesiastical tyranny, etc.

Please answer my inquiry too.

Is breath a means whereby a dead man get life, or is breath a means to evidence and manifest that life has been imparted to the dead man?

Is faith (actus) the God-given means whereby we are saved, or is faith (actus) the means to evidence and manifest that salvation has been freely and sovereign bestowed by God?

Thanks Brother Brian.

Brian

I think if you read my comments on the thread that all of your questions have been answered in detail. Especially with regard to us being spiritually dead and how life comes to us first. Please read my comments when you have time.

Sing F Lau
If you have answered it, then I must have missed it. I would appreciate if you could just answer this very point and specific question:

Is faith (actus) the God-given means whereby we are saved, or is faith (actus) the means to evidence and manifest that salvation has been freely and sovereign bestowed by God?

Thank you very much.

Brian

It is the second part of your question. The activity of faith is the evidence of the implantation of regeneration which is the gift of God.

Brian

I am cutting and pasting from the thread what i said earlier. For it is impossible for a dead man to make a response in the physical world and so it correlates that a man dead spiritually cannot make a response spiritually either. For a man to respond spiritually he must first be made spiritually alive. This is a case in point where man is passive totally. He cannot make himself alive. For a man who is dead not even the call of the gospel as it is preached can break into his deadness. However, God, when and as He pleases gives life to that dead sinner and calls him by the gospel, to him that hath an ear to hear, to them that hunger, to them that thirst, to them that labour and are heavy laden etc. Notice these attributes are not the attributes of the dead but the living spiritually, hungering, thirsting, labouring, hearing. This is not only how the apostles and Christ preached the gospel but also how we ought to preach the gospel. And can the dead repent no, but being made alive we are indeed able to repent for it is God who worketh in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Sing F Lau

Brother, that's the answer.
And because that is the answer, it is a logical fallacy to say "Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved." It is a lie so loved by inconsistent Calvinists, and so loved by their ignorant cousins Arminians.

Regeneration is part and parcel of the gift of eternal salvation in Christ Jesus, applied to an elect WITHOUT any means, by freely and sovereignly by God.

Faith (potentia) is an effect of that salvation bestowed.

Faith (actus) is an evidence and manifestation of that effect.

Therefore faith (actus) CANNOT possibly be the means whereby anyone is saved by God! It is logically fallacious, and worse a lie, and injurious to God's honor.

Thank you so much.

Johnny

I'll attempt to answer, as I, too, enjoy the abstract thought process inherit with spiritual matters, the understanding of God, by our limited physical minds, given by Him. "We are not ourselves, we were bought with a price." "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Those two scriptures, are the basis that comes to mind, the philosophy behind the answer to Sing's inquiry. Nothing we do, think, feel with our senses, are from us. That includes everyone, from Adam on down. We are nothing more that the same components as a rock, as far as physical existence is concerned. God "breathed" into everyone, "the breath of life." Thus, EVERYTHING of us, in us, about us, EVERY ONE of us, is from God.  Presuming that philosophy to be spiritual truth, then the answer is "actus" like everything else. From God. So, by "any way we cut it," by what ever wording we apply to describe it, faith and belief come from God. Man's part, is no more than understanding God's process in providing EVERYTHING, than it is in understanding, say, that 1 plus 1 equals 2. So, what do we do with this understanding, that we also call, "Faith," or sometimes, "Belief." Just sit around, praise God, study the Bible so that we know more about God and His nature and His Universe? Sure, we can do that. But doesn't that lead to HUMAN pride in our understanding, and even hatred for those that do not have such understanding? It could. At best, it is pure selfishness. All of it is forgiven, without a doubt, yet the thankfulness, the gratitude to the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, for forgiveness, compels any reasonable, thinking believer, to good "works," including the self-will to turn from the old man of sin to the new man of righteousness (repentance), BECAUSE, the FATHER through JESUS (a man and God on Earth) took the sins on the cross, giving us salvation from those sins and GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT. And, why not be baptized, another good "work," to outwardly demonstrate the body's physical life, for self, for observation by others, and to God. Does man "do" any of this, without the Father? It would be ridiculous to say yes, I got baptized, I confessed, when God the Father provides in His Word, these good "works." So, what's the problem. All of this understanding from man, is hinged on God's Word. That Word was from the beginning, and has been communicated to me by God. Why me? Why not, EVERYONE. That is the nature of God, that has not been answered by Him, through my personal study, my prayers, or by anyone else's teachings or answers to the question.

Sing F Lau
Johnny, what specific questions are you answering?
I can't follow a thing!

Brian

God does not arbitrarily choose us because there is something better about us than others. God choose us because He has created us to be living stones in His temple. I am a stone and you are a stone but I am not you nor you me. We are not the same and I could not be placed in the temple location God has for you for I would not fit nor you in my place. God has carefully chosen each stone to fit perfectly into his building. Does that answer your final question? The stones God does not use in His temple are rejected.

Brian

Sing F Lau Let me ask a specific question, Is regeneration part of faith?

Johnny

@Brian. Yes, as well as any thought I have had. To answer to question completely, I suppose, would require the mind of God, which none of us have. I do know that my parents prayed to God, for my life, my spiritual being, all that; perhaps an answer to their prayer. Yet, that still does not speak to the why, God provides for some nations, and not others. My faith in His goodness, satisfies, but I still have the "human" question lingering, perhaps, and will always. The fellow in the Amazon, never heard of God, His Word, Christ, or had anyone pray for him. As to the question, of regeneration. I could only offer an opinion, the concept being new to my spiritual experience. In some ways, it describes the possibility of God's providing salvation WITHOUT the Word, to His elect, in the nation's that I have questioned, but it would only be an opinion. It's an explanation that helps strengthen my belief in the Almighty. And, it is from God. If it is man's part in the process, through self-will or mental understanding, I would have to conclude that it is "AFTER" in human time, that God provides faith. In spiritual time, there is no BEFORE, AFTER, or LATER.

Brian

The answer to the guy in the jungle is simple God does not love all men but there are jungle people God does love and Christ finds them and leads them to eternal life out of the jungle to church or else he brings the church to the jungle.

Johnny

@Brian. That is the belief that I come to have, from a consistent and loving God, one that if I thought was not so, even with His mercy for me and for all. Yet, let me ask, not to dispute in any way your answer, are we commanded to love all men, Jesus' second commandment. And the scripture, "It at all possible, live in peace with all men." If we are commanded to love as God, to love God, and to love men, is it acceptable to not love the unseen man in the jungle. And if so, is it acceptable not to love your next door neighbor who cheats on his wife. How can we be expected to love all men, even in the abstract, if God does not love all men?

Sing F Lau

Brian asked: Let me ask a specific question, Is regeneration part of faith?
=======
Define 'faith' for me and I will be able to answer your specific and pointed question. Give me a biblical definition of the 'faith' in your question.
Thanks.

Sing F Lau

Johnny, I would prefer you to keep strictly to the subject. There is a place and time for every subject of your choice. Put them up on your wall, and send me an invitation, and I will come and take a look... and if the subject interest me, i will leave some comments.

You want to love the unseen men in the jungle?????????  No, the Lord just want you to be more focused , Sir. "Love thy neighbor as thyself... " That's enough to occupy our whole life!

Brian

Faith is a gift of the grace of God whereby we know and are assured that God is our Father for Jesus sake. To me it comes firstly, as a gift of enablement. It makes us alive by regeneration and then causes us to believe being thus enabled and then it causes us to repent of our sins and flee to Christ our only redeemer.

Thus I see faith as a gift of God in what he does in us and as a consequence our appropriation of the salvation through the said faith and resulting confession of it.

Johnny 

@Sing. Thank you, but no thank you. I appreciate your comments so much, and the ones that comment on your wall. I have no intention in starting any string of comments, as that is not the style I consider God has given me. Am I curious though. Why do you ask only me to make such attempts, dismissive of only my comments, and not so for others? I'll consider your answer a spiritual one, regardless of what it is.

Johnny

@Sing. I have answered questions regarding faith, on your link, and the answers deal with faith. I'll be happy not to answer any questions on your links. They are yours, to be sure. Just let me know. I honor your wishes.

Sing F Lau

Brian wrote: "Faith is a gift of the grace of God whereby we know and are assured that God is our Father for Jesus sake. To me it comes firstly, as a gift of enablement. It makes us alive by regeneration and then causes us to believe being thus enabled and then it causes us to repent of our sins and flee to Christ our only redeemer."
==========
You are saying these:
1. Faith is a gift of the grace of God whereby we know and are assured....
2. Faith is a gift of enablement...
3. Faith makes us alive by regeneration...
4. Faith causes us to believe...

Did you read what I said about the relationship between regeneration, faith and believing?
I paste it here:
============
I understand the Scriptures to teach thus:
1. Regeneration: the divine free and sovereign activity of quickening an elect dead in trespasses and sins, based solely upon the righteousness of Christ applied to the elect personally by God's free and sovereign grace.

2. The Spirit of adoption within the child of God (regenerated elect) works in him the manifolds graces of salvation, INCLUDING the grace of faith.
- This is ENTIRELY different and distinct from the divine act of regeneration!!! (This is probably what you meant by the potentia part of faith.)
- Thus, faith is a grace worked WITHIN a child of God by the indwelling Spirit of God. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. It is an effect of salvation already bestowed. Therefore it CANNOT CANNOT be the means whereby an elect is saved by God.

3. By virtue of that grace of faith worked by the Spirit of God within the child of God, he is ENABLE to believe (an activity of faith - actus) the gospel of his salvation.
=============

Your (3) statement is very seriously wrong. Faith does not makes a spiritually dead man live. Regeneration is attributed to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. God makes us alive by regeneration!!!!

Your statement (1) contradicts the plain statements of Scriptures that faith, among all other saving graces, is the work of the Spirit in the regenerated elect. In that sense alone it is a gift of God, just as ALL OTHER saving graces are gift of God.

Your (2) and (4) - The grace of faith indeed enables a child of God to believe. However, the grace of faith does not CAUSE any one to believe! The harsh reality of unbelief among God's children is enough to debunk such fable!

So, to answer your initial question "Is regeneration part of faith?" --- my answer is a seven fold NO!

If you have asked, "is faith part of regeneration" the answer is a qualified 'yes'.
Regeneration is God's free and sovereign activity of bringing a man, who is by nature dead in trespasses and sin, to eternal life in Christ Jesus, accompanied with the gift of the Spirit of adoption to indwell the child of God.

It is the indwelling Spirit who works the grace of faith (your PRC's 'potentia' terminology) in the child of God. This enables, NOT causes, a child of God to believe the word of truth, the gospel of his salvation.

Thanks for the discussion and study.

Sing F Lau

Brother Johnny, you ask, "Why do you ask only me to make such attempts..?"
Ans: you notice yours, and not others.

I find it hard reading when I don't see the connections between the matter under discussion and the comments made.

So, feel REAL FREE to comment... just stay to the subject. It is a needed discipline.

LOVE you Brother!!! I think you are a brother with a mind bursting with so much to say... ready to share.

Brian

I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying that regeneration is not the work of the spirit. It is the first work. But not only does this work of the spirit make us alive spiritually it implants faith in us. Thus this is how I understand the connection with faith and regeneration. You cannot have regeneration without also having faith. They are inextricably linked. This I call the seed of faith and this seed manifests itself in our believing. I do not think we are saying different things.

Sing F Lau

I didn't misunderstand you. You said this:
"Faith is a gift of the grace of God whereby we know and are assured that God is our Father for Jesus sake. To me it comes firstly, as a gift of enablement. It makes us alive by regeneration and then causes us to believe being thus enabled and then it causes us to repent of our sins and flee to Christ our only redeemer."
===========
So from your words, I conclude that you are saying that "It (i.e. FAITH) makes us alive by regeneration and then CAUSES us to believe...
Of course you DIDN'T say that regeneration is NOT the work of the Spirit. You didn't say anything on that.
BUT, you did make a VERY POSITIVE statement that "(faith) makes us alive by regeneration and then causes us to believe.

"You cannot have regeneration without also having faith..."
This statement is true... regeneration is always accompanied with the gift of the Spirit to indwell God's child. And the indwelling Spirit works the grace of faith (potentia), which enables believing (actus). Enabling is not the same as CAUSING.

With your latter explanation, I can agree we are not saying entirely different things.
September 6 at 11:27pm · Like

Sing F Lau

Brother Brian you wrote:
"Thus I see faith as a gift of God in what he does in us and as a consequence our appropriation of the salvation through the said faith and resulting confession of it."

You are still stuck with your calvinistic idea of appropriation of the salvation through the said God-given means faith.

I have demonstrated and explained endless times... that SINCE faith is an effect of the salvation already bestowed, it CANNOT be the means through which the same salvation is appropriated. You have not once refuted or debunked it.

If you want to live with that logical fallacy and lie and fable, I will say no more.
Someone once said, "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone."

Thank you for the discussion.
I'm knocking off. It's nearly midnight here.

Johnny

Only the Father, Sing, in all things. Thank you.

Johnny

I'll risk criticism, and jump into this subject of KJV and the Word. Brian, you asked Sing, and I firmly believe the Holy Spirit has given me insight on this matter. Such may not be best for every student of scripture, but has worked for me. First, let me say that John 1 describes the Word, the "mind" of God which He has provided in written form (to His generations of humanity in physical time that he allowed to print or chisel characters or words). The WORD is NOT the book, the words, the writings, the translations, the manuscripts of supposed copies of the originals, and perhaps not the original letters themselves (doesn't matter - they are non-existent physically). The Word is the "thoughts" of the Almighty. God's Holy Spirit (God Himself) a part of us, is there to clearly define what we may question the meaning, or more importantly, guide our physical walk - after all, our spiritual "walk" is taken care of, forever. So, Brain asked Sing if he exclusively used the KJV. The terms "only" and "never" are words that have little meaning, as they are impossible (almost), to say with 100% truth, that the action or thought after them, are true. Yet, discounting that, is the question is exclusive use in study, my response would by, "why do you ask." For myself, historically, the current Christian age studied the KJV since 1611, know the scriptures from that translation, and more easily communicate among outselves with one physical book. The book, Holy Bible translated 1611 contains the thoughts of God, and we should continually (constantly, translation KJV, or "without ceasing") pray that God gives us understanding. He has given us everything else. But for our own mind, intellect, human understanding, the use of other versions, in English more understandable, is appropriate for me, and by comparison to that which I am accustomed (parallel, especially on the internet), it is an example of a good "work" to study in that fashion. After all, ALL the translations are "good works" of men. If I had the human knowledge to translate the original texts (which are also subject to human error), I would do that. Yet in NO CASE, can man, get an physical truth from God, without His spiritual guidance. Otherwise, we would be depending upon ourselves and our own understanding, in addition to the understanding of the men that copied the manuscripts and translated the text.

Sing F Lau

Johnny said, "First, let me say that John 1 describes the Word, the "mind" of God which He has provided in written form... The Word is the "thoughts" of the Almighty.
===========

Johnny, let me say that the Word in John 1 refers to the second DIVINE PERSON in the eternal Godhead! The Word in John 1 is NOT the mind or God, neither the thought of God, but a distinct and separate DIVINE PERSON.

That eternal Word was made flesh, and we have the Son of God... the unique divine-human Person, the only begotten Son of God.

Johnny 

Good thought. Is this Divine Person, Jesus, or another component of distinct, yet integral, part of the God-head, better described, in my view, as simply, God. If Jesus, as the classic interpretation many take it, and to which I suspect you allude, why do you think John, the most spiritual writer of all perhaps, used the term "Word." I may be speaking quite in the abstract, referring it to God's "thoughts" and not specific to the literal meaning. Application of that thought of mine (from God, of course), was in response to the writting "word" question brought up. Was not attempting to go off into another subject. "The WORD was made flesh," no doubt about that.

Sing F Lau

Johnny, please listen to another Johnny:
John 1
1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
-----------------
'... and the Word WAS God,' and not God's thoughts!

I'm pretty useless when it comes to abstractions! I'm do read the Bible and deduce what I do believe.

The Word is the ONE-natured eternal divine Being.

Jesus is the Word made flesh, the TWO-natured Divine-human Being. He is the only begotten Son of God.

And John was SPECIFICALLY speaking of the former, and not the latter. That's the reasn John used the term 'Word.'

Johnny

The beginning, in John 1, is not the beginning of Gen. 1:1. I am no scholar, yet I know this. God had NO physical time beginning. Thus, a proper word to describe God's time is THE beginning. Perhaps, Gen. 1:1, was mistranslated, and should read "In A beginning, God created......" So, with that thought in mind, the Word (Jesus), the Holy Spirit, and EVBERYTHING that is or was or will be, IS God. Jesus was mentioned in the creation account representing a PHYSICAL abeginning. "Let us make man in our image." Man was made physical, and in the minds of God, Christ, and whoever else (Holy Spirit?) making up the plurual "we." So, back to the Word. It is no different, spiritually, that anything else. The Word was God. The Word is God. Jesus was God. Jesus is God. Jesus came to share himself, as a man, yet also divine. The Word of God, Jesus, said of his deity nature in Col., that because of his physical time on Earth, Jesus was given EVERYTHING in God's everything, except of one thing (when, in physical time, he will come again). What he was given, was more than he had, at the creation in A beginning. So, I agree with one on all levels. The Word applies to Jesus. Jesus is the Word. The mind of God is the Word. Jesus brought the mind of God to humanity. The events surrounding them were written and for use by humanity, till the end of time. Call these abstractions, spiritual thoughts, whatever, they are true, and that is what matters.

Sing F Lau

O what irony. You are no scholar and you went on to write as though your are a scholar! I leave the translation of Scriptures to real scholars!!! Thank you... Johnny!

Johnny

There is no scholar, certified by educational institutions or not, or wanna-be-but-never-knowing-the-entire-nature-of-God, by comes to know or understand ANYTHING that God does not allow, or provide as a gift. That is why I enjoy your links, Sing. YOU are BOTH, and I learn. You help me from getting too far off the path of truth, and are answers to prayer, no doubt. Later.
=============

post script ------ How easy to stray away from the subject under discussion!!!

Duty Faith and Free Offer are Siamese twins

Duty Faith and Free Offer - they're Siamese twins

A man asserted about his denomination: "The PRC consider a denial of faith being the duty of the reprobate classic hyper-Calvinism, in accordance with historic Calvinism as defined in the Canons of Dordt."

But I understand that the same PRC denomination also rejects (rightly) the free offer of the gospel to all.

But isn't his affirmation of "faith being the duty of the reprobate" so much part and parcel of the free offer of salvation to all, including the reprobates? Can one separate the Siamese twins: duty faith of all and the free offer?

The reprobate can't possibly be duty bound to repent and believe for salvation, can they, unless that salvation is also freely offered to them at the same time?

Have I misunderstood?
Here are some common questions people asked. Let me give brief answers to each of them.

Question 1
"Do you believe that the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction"?"
Answer:
Yes, I do. There is no other way the gospel is to be preached publicly to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction... for God's children [i.e. elect ALREADY regenerated] are found among them. And the gospel, the good news of what God has done to save His people, is obviously for His people only. It is irrelevant and not good news to others. 

Question 2:
How do you evangelize a crowd of unknown people?
[The question presupposes the fictional fable that in the public proclaiming the gospel of God, it is possible to address only the "sensible sinners" or only to the elect. Such is possible only when the human preacher becomes divine and knows the exact identity of his hearers.]
Answer:
How? Just like the apostles did, and with the same understanding they had of what they were doing.

Men are called to believe WHAT IS ALREADY TRUE OF THEM... the gospel of THEIR salvation. Such men are ALREADY saved by God... already effectually called to grace and salvation, which is why there is THE GOSPEL OF THEIR SALVATION for them to believe.

Though they DO NOT know who are God's children in the midst of the crowd, they know full well that the gospel message is for God's children among the hearers. Such are called to believe the word of truth... because it is ALREADY true of them... such are called to believe the gospel of their salvation, because they are already SAVED BY GOD. If they had not been saved by God, there is NO NO NO gospel of their salvation to preach to them!!!

It is as elementary as that, Brother .

I do not need to know who are God's children in the crowd to know EXACTLY and DEFINITELY that the gospel ministry is relevant ONLY to such, and that it is irrelevant to all others!

Food is for the living, and not the dead. Jesus said to Peter, "Feed..... feed... feed... "

Feeding has to do with the living only. You know that don't you? When food is brought to a crowd of living and dead people, the living among the crowd will manifest themselves - they would want to receive and partake of the food!

Question 3
Is it right to freely offer salvation in Christ to all men?
Answer:
Your question PRESUPPOSES that the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of salvation in Christ, and to all men. I dispute whether the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of salvation in Christ at all?

I do believe the preaching of the gospel is the heralding and proclamation of the good news of the salvation already accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ, and applied by the Holy Spirit to individual elect personally.

There IS NOT an offer of anything to any one. The hearers are called to believe the good news... and tell you what... ONLY those that ARE SAVED by God - i.e. already justified, regenerated and adopted, with the indwelling Spirit of God working faith in them - will receive the gospel. Why? Because the gospel of salvation is ALREADY TRUE of them by God's free grace through the effectual call. It is the gospel of THEIR salvation - Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation..."

As a preacher, I have no salvation to offer to sinners. I am not sent to offer anything. I am send to preach the gospel, to announce the glad tidings of salvation already accomplished and applied, and call the hearers to believe the gospel, and those hearers that are made partakers of such salvationare able to believe.

I have good news of salvation to announce to my hearers. I call the hearers to believe the good news... ALL THE TIME conscious that only God's children (i.e. elect already effectually called out of their state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation) among them is capable of believing. All others will perceive the gospel as foolishness, and the preachers of the gospel as fools.

Question 4:
What do you think of the gospel preachers who offer salvation to sinners?

Answer:

I perceive the gospel preachers who offer salvation in Christ to those dead in trespasses and sins as sincere BUT foolish preachers. Why?

To offer salvation in Christ to the dead is foolishness. Not even you are stupid enough to offer something to the dead expecting the dead to accept! (I know the superstitious Chinese offer roast pig and hell banknotes to the dead!)

To offer salvation in Christ to the children of God is redundant.

To proclaim the gospel of salvation in Christ and call the hearers to believe the good news is wise. Hold forth the good news of salvation and call the hearers to believe it. And those that ARE SAVED, those who have eternal life among the hearers shall believe and believe.They shall perceive the gospel as the message declaring God's power in saving them!

WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS - HAS - HAS ETERNAL LIFE - is a declarative statement of fact; believing evidences eternal life. It is not a conditional statement of offer to the dead to believe so that he may have life.

Bread is for the nourishing of the living!!! Foolish preachers think bread is for the dead to eat, so that they may have life.

Question 5:
Do you freely offer Christ in your preaching?
Answer:
The gospel is the good news of what God HAS DONE in Christ and His Spirit to save His people. It is NOT some news with the offer that God WILL DO something on the condition that man accept that offer.

Preaching the gospel is the proclamation of the good news and calling the hearers to believe the gospel. It is ONLY THOSE ALREADY IN UNION WITH CHRIST by the free and sovereign grace [and not free offer!] of God in their effectual calling to grace and salvation that will respond to the gospel call. These are ALREADY IN POSSESSION OF salvation. Such are called to believe the gospel of their salvation. They are called to believe what is ALREADY true.

It is REDUNDANT to OFFER Christ to those already in possession of Christ by God's free grace. It is such a simple truth. Why is it so difficult to accept? You would offer Christ to those ALREADY in possession of Christ by God's free grace. Your sincere offer is far TOO LATE, and PRESUMPTUOUS too! Why offer Christ to someone already in possession of Christ?

I have nothing to offer. I have a good news to tell the hearers, and urging them to believe the truth of what God has done in them... and those in whom God has done the work of grace, have the grace of faith to enable them to believe.

Question 6:
Do all men have an obligation to believe in Christ, placed on them by God?
Answer:
All men being sinners are under obligation to repent towards God His creator. NO sinner has any right to remain in sin. Every single sinner is under divine obligation to repent and turn from his sin. And none would repent but those whom God has sovereignly and freely and effectually called to grace and salvation.

I do believe the question sound stupid to me... now please know that I am not being rude. I am not. God is my witness. Just think why I do think the question is stupid. [stupid means lacking intelligence and common sense!]

Why are all men under the divine obligation to believe Christ as Saviour when Christ was not even given by God to be the Saviour of all men? Why are all men to believe Christ as their Saviour when Christ insisted that He came to be the Saviour of His own people, to save His own people from their sin? That would amount to God putting some men under divine obligation to believe a big fat lie! Let God be true but every man a liar who contradict Him!

It is contrary to God's character for God to put any man under divine obligation to believe a lie - i.e. to believe that Christ is their Saviour when He had assuredly not given Christ is not their Saviour.

I do believe all God's children are under divine obligation to repent and believe in their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He IS ALREADY their Lord and Saviour. Upon the basis of His life and death, they have been justified, regenerated and adopted. They are children first by God's free grace, then they are called to believe the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, Eph 1:13.

Question 7:
Aren't all men, without exception, duty bound to repent.
Answer:
- All sinners are duty bound to repent. They are God's creatures bound by the terms of the covenant of creation. God's creatures are duty bound by the terms of the covenant of creation to repent of their sins and obey God as their Creator. God's creatures have no right to remain in sin.
- All the children of God are duty bound to repent and believe in the gospel of their salvation. They are God's redeemed bound by the terms of the covenant of redemption. God's redeemed are duty bound by the terms of the covenant of redemption to repent and believe in their Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ . He is their Lord and Saviour. They are duty bound to believe the truth.
- A man's duties are defined by terms of the covenant to which he is a party!

Charles
it seems to me that if men hold to penal substitutionary atonement, as most say they do, then there should not be an argument as to the duty of thoes Christ died for to repent. Repentance is nullified by the substitution. Substitution is essential due to the inability that ALL men have. If they redefine PSA then the door opens to the discussion of duty and demand.

Sing F Lau
Repentance is not nullified by substitution.
Condemnation is voided by substitution.
Perfect righteousness is met by substitution.

Repentance from the sin of believing lies and fables and fiction, to believe the gospel of one's salvation in Jesus Christ by God's free and sovereign grace.

Substitution DOES NOT relieve the duty and responsibility of anyone - elect or otherwise - to believe the truth.

All of God's creatures are bound by the terms of the covenant of creation.

All of God's elect are bound by the terms of the covenant of redemption!

Substitution by Christ relieved God's elect from the deserved eternal damnation due to their sins, and relieved them of the demand to meet perfect righteousness.

The rest is not nullified!!!

Charles
Repentance for the elect unregenerate does not do any good. The only thing that does any good is the substitutionary death of Christ. The grace of new life makes it possible for the new born to obtain mercy via repentance. Perhaps my choice of wording was confusing.

Sing F Lau
Elect unregenerate remains God's creatures... his repentance from sexual promiscuity or stealing, or false witness, sins will do him much good as God's creatures!

Jonas NOg
why?? .. r the creeds n doctrines/theological distinctive of these respective so called denominations /congregation trustworthy n more true than the bible?the Lord Jesus did not institute organized religion .. He established Himself!..is Christ divided??.. r Lord Jesus teaches on true spirituality. man invents religion.now that's paradoxical! :( :(

Sing F Lau
Q1. . r the creeds n doctrines/theological distinctive of these respective so called denominations /congregation trustworthy n more true than the bible?
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No, such are intended to summarize what they believe. Whether they are trustworthy or not is YOUR duty to examine it in the pure light of Holy Scriptures. The liberty to state what they believe is theirs. The duty to study whether they are trustworthy is yours.

Nothing can be more true than Bible. The Bible is the only authority for doctrine and practice. So, study it well, and you will begin to know whether those creed and theological distinctive a biblical!!!

Sing F Lau
Q2. the Lord Jesus did not institute organized religion .. He established Himself!..is Christ divided??.. r Lord Jesus teaches on true spirituality. man invents religion.now that's paradoxical!
===========
What do you mean by 'organized religion'?
Jesus did establish Himself as the Redeemer and Head of His church. He did leave specific teachings and commands through His apostles to be observed by His followers. Isn't that the basis of the ORGANIZED nature of the religion of Jesus Christ. Did Christ lay down specific rules and commands all the areas of His church? If He did, then He instituted something very organized for His people to observe.

Yes, Christ teaches true spirituality. You need to read the Scriptures and tell us what constitutes that true spirituality taught by Jesus Christ... then we can learn together and be more truly spiritual as follower of Jesus Christ. Please do that...
There are no paradoxes... there are different understandings and opinions.

Jonas NOg
..bro. most of d tyime in the back of my mind i m referring to the apostate roman religion .. n most arminians/man centereed denominations ..darts wat i an referring to. bro. sing. hope we coud personally converse face to face m not a good typist pls. xcuse bro. sing :)

Sing F Lau
Know the Bible well, for that's the sole and only authority by which everything MUST be judged! Know the Bible well and we will be able to set God's people free from the bondage they are under man centred religion.
Come and visit Penang... if you like to take a short holiday!

Malcolm
Brother Sing, Jon Foreman wrote an excellent booklet against duty faith. Have you read this?

Sing F Lau
No, not heard of him. Please tell more.

Dellis
Sing F Lau, you give the impression that you are more calvinistic than calvin was. Referring to the link to John 3:16, I never would have thought John Calvin would have said such a thing...He actually implied that all(the whole human race) have the capability to be saved...I never dreamed I would hear that from him.
I'm trying to follow your teaching and have learned a lot,but I'm confused when you rebuke calvinism and yet quote and explain scripture the way I learned calvinism to be.
I strongly believe that the gospel should be preached to every creature,but I dont believe it to be the power of God unto salvation to every living person...That power is reserved and directed towards the elect/chosen of God only...How does know if they are of the chosen? They are part of the whosoever that believeth. No one but God knows who they are until it happens to them.
Can one resist the call if they are chosen? yes,but not forever. "God always gets His man."

Sing F Lau
Dellis, in the nature of the case, the public preaching of the gospel HAS TO BE ADDRESSED to all the hearers indiscriminately. It can't be done any other way - unless the preacher become divine and can distinguish the elect from the others.

However a preacher DOES NOT need to know who are the children of God (regenerated elect) in the midst of the audience) to know most assuredly that the gospel ministry is intended for God's children. The gospel is the good news concerning what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ and His Spirit to save His people.

The gospel is NOT the power. The gospel declares the power of God that has been asserted to save. The gospel is the good news of what HAS TAKEN PLACE by God's free and sovereign grace. And the recipient of such saving grace are called upon to believe the truth of the gospel of their salvation.

Dellis
Thanxs for clarifying that Sing,But I looked at like only the believers know of the power of grace that comes from believing the gospel,right? grace that comes through faith and the renewing of the spirit is definitely a powerful experience that only a believer can know.

Sing F Lau
Believing in Jesus Christ is the ONLY means ordained by God for His children to actually EXPERIENCE personally what God has done for them... look at the eunuch and Cornelius... the gospel informs and instructs them what God HAS DONE for them... believing the truth of the gospel of their salvation brings them great joy!

"Zeal without Doctrine is like a Sword in the hand of a Lunatic"

Original picture

Picture with Mathiu's copious notes

https://www.facebook.com/mattongbp#!/photo.php?fbid=10151081960608403&set=a.10150773013033403.401482.661063402&type=1

Mathiu
Beware!!! BEWARE!!! Many came to falsely "teach" but factually accuses saints from pulpit also!!!
========
Picture originally obtain from Pj Walters.

Like trying to "baptist" people "BACK" into the OLD testament!! That is also one such plain tactical plan.

Daniel
Wow.... this is exactly what I am fighting now!! We seem to want unity at all costs... even if we have to ignore doctrine.

I would ignore the writing on the right... it is hard to understand what the person is saying.... and alot of spelling issues too. But the quote is very thought provoking.

Steve
Yeah, I'm not sure what point they were trying to make by the writing on the right side either...can you help us Matthew?

James
Verses taken out of Context to prove a Doctrine without Hermenuetics... Almost sounds like a Proverb... :-)

Mathiu
Steve, Yeah, I'm not sure what point they were trying to make by the writing on the right side either...can you help us Matthew?<<< They systematically from at least 328AD tried to bring His saints back into the OLD testaments and preaches a false Eternal creature work base salvation. Even the dedication of the King James Translation Epistle Dedicatory:
and sustained without by the powerful protection of Your Majesty's grace and favour, which will ever give countenance to honest and christian endeavours against ***bitter censures*** and ***uncharitable imputations***.

Mathiu
Some of their most proud "signs and wonders":
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151062020938403&set=a.10150773013033403.401482.661063402&type=1&relevant_count=1

In our time, many many of the bible prophecy has already been fulfilled; very few are left.
--------------------------
Why I do NOT have ANY good feeling towards the Jesuits priests line, at all. Even if they teach 1+1=2 and also 1x1=1. They are still liars.
--------------------------
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of ***Satan*** with all power and signs and ***lying*** wonders,

Sing F Lau
"Verses taken out of Context to prove a Doctrine without Hermenuetics"

That's the trademark of Matthew!

Daniel
I think everything he writes that I've read is out-of-context and he's honestly Mathiu builds hypothetical and often erratic conjunctions from his writing. It's almost like he's just out there screaming into the wind by himself. I like the irony in his statement "dead drunks." Yeah, Ong...cursed are the drunks and yet you condone the alcoholic Jesus false doctrines based off of back-tracking Law with Grace. Makes sense? Either I'm theologically inept or I'm just tired of seeing Matt's cynical debates posting to my wall feed. I have a job, a life, and maintain them under God but I've got better things to do than to promote dogmatic doctrines which twist conformed fundamental Biblical theology.

Sing F Lau
"I think everything he writes that I've read is out-of-context and he's honestly Matthew Ong builds hypothetical and often erratic conjunctions from his writing. It's almost like he's just out there screaming into the wind by himself.
=========
I have told him the same thing in different ways IN PERSON... but to not avail!

Daniel
Sing F. Lau, this probably my 10th time saying something to him over the web. But you have in person. I'm sure you and I are one of very many. He's like one of the Sanhedrin, you can't persuade them that they are way off-their-block and they'll alienate you if you try. If Matthew Ong learned a few things about the commission God has for the elect "glorify God in all that you do," then maybe he'd focus more on witnessing to the lost that confusing the lost and the saved and making a fool out of himself.

Mathiu
@Sing: Just to clarify this here, do you or do you not agree the Lord's supper uses alcoholic wine and NOT grape juice as I have watched a few times?

Sing F Lau
Come and see for yourself, uncle Mathiu! Get some eye salve to help your eyes see clearly! And better still QUALIFY yourself to taste whether it is grape wine or grape juice - do you have skill to distinguish the two or not? Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology. Develop that vital discipline!

Why raise that subject to divert what Brother Daniel and I are pointing out to you. Even Brother Daniel is saying exactly what I have been telling you all along. By humble and turn from your haughty stubborn way!s

Mathiu
@Sing: I still have not change the position on King James Translation alone is complete and without error which both you and also daniel clearly object to and also promote someone needs to learn another tongues to know some simple english preserved truth. I would not be surprise that you are trying to blur what is made clear in the bible to young christians that just got converted from false heathen buddhism. If you do not like what is being written here, there is a button call "unfriend" do use it like Daniel. The LORD omnipotent is my provider.

Sing F Lau
Matthew, the last I heard from your own mouth is that you believe these concerning the KJB:
- KJB Bible is the inspired translation. And you quote a good man for your authority to believe such notion. I advised you to ascertain from the man himself whether he believes such. What was his answer to you???
- That those who do not use the KJB "ARE OF THE DEVIL." This was heard by three members of Sungai Dua Church. When you were warned and rebuked for such notion, you wriggled and wiggled.

I have no problem with KJB... you do.

And why you are so offended by the simple fact that a proficient knowledge of the original language is USEFUL... and helps a student of God's word in rightly dividing the word of truth. If you don't know Greek it is ok... but don't be so stupid as to deny the usefulness of a proficient knowledge of Greek... because the NT of the KJB is translated out of koine Greek! Don't be an ostrich! No one say the knowledge of Greek is necessary for salvation, or without which the KJB cannot be understood. And I know you probably can't make the distinction any way!!! You are just too DENSE and obtuse...

Take for example:
Mat 28:1 ¶ In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Textus Receptus
28:1 Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων ἦλθεν Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαριὰ θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον

"the sabbath' and "day of the week" are both translated from the same Greek word "sabbaton." Knowing this FACT has help bible student to rightly divine this important passage! Do you know? Sober up! Matthew.

1Cor 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

You befriended me. The onus is on you to undo it if that's your wish!

Daniel
It really isn't funny to see a man like Mathiu degrade himself so many times. He's a typical Ruckmanite, except if I were to categorize him he'd be a "Revised Ong-Ruckmanite" because his babbling is like listening to a control-group of liberal archaic Romans trying to figure out how the Bible came to be in English. I work a corporate office job for 9-hours of my day, then have time for the gym and God all through it.

However, Ong-ology says: The Bible was never originally in Hebrew O.T. or Greek N.T., those who question Ong are heretics, the martyrs of the dark ages and other early reformers were not really saved before being burnt...just confused, those who question Ong are heretics, Jesus was a drunkard and every verse can be taken out of context to support a movement that claims many hoaxs about proper theology, those who study fundamental theology are heretics, don't tell Ong about the Masoretic texts because Ong-ism law teaches that antisemitism and that those who believe in a Masoretic used in the 1604 King James staff are either heretics or Messianic New Age, and the number one rule of Ong-onlogy is...Mathiu Ong can override all of his contradictions by DOS command "Ctrl + Alt + Print Scrn" and then circle everything in red with Microsoft Paint tools and add text-box to emphasis his delusions.

Someday Matt's going to wake up and realize that he wasted days getting drunk and writing homespun psuedo-theological footnotes and references into scripture verses and spent no time actually humbly glorifying God or witnessing the Gospel to the lost. Someday, that day may come too late because he's as prideful as they come.

Mathiu
lol....I do NOT need to press Ctrl+Alt+Print Screen....Just "print screen" lol....Thanks so much to educate me in computing usage. .

PjW
Bro. Mathiu, we all can get carried away from time to time. Pray that we be not carried away by delusions of our own minds.

For the record, I had posted only the picture. Bro. Mathiu added his words to the right side.

Daniel
Why would I call him brother Matthew. This guy fell off the yutz wagon a long time ago. He sounds like a local tyrant who has nothing better to do but get on Facebook and post over-emphasized messages which are laughable to people who honestly don't left from right when it comes down to reality. They don't have lives, they don't care about commission. All they want to do is bicker, debate, and cry and draw attention to themselves with cheaply made computer templates when they don't get their way. Your mama didn't spank you enough as a kid Ong. Maybe that's the reason why you are the way you are. I would honestly compare you to such heretic psychopaths as the late and evil Jeffery Lundgren. Because he literally drew a following to the point of where he was leading a cult and then shot a family behind a barn...by people of his religious cult that he had brainwashed. PJ: Honestly, you gave Matt a picture of an idol? Come on, the man thinks he's Julius Caesar. Of course he's going to embellish it. Matt, you do what you want, I saw every friend I had subscribed to you leave for the same reason...you have lost your mind and hate any and everyone who isn't bowing down at you or praising you with attention for your erroneous pseudo-theology. Mr. Lau is right, nothing can convince you. So, keep yelling in the wind and leading your online cult. I've got a job to do and a God to glorify, I don't have time for knock-offs like you.

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Post script" Mathiu is one classic example of  "Zeal without doctrine is like a Sword in the hand of a Lunatic."