Dry bones and Gospel Regeneration - Ps 19:7 & Ez 37:1-14

Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,
O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
But who are these dry bones???

A Popular Myth - Dry Bones and Gospel Regeneration - Ps 19:7 and Ez 37:1-14

Dear Brethren,

I received an invitation from a RB church (SC, Singapore) to attend a church leaders' conference (April 2006) - a portion of the Announcement is pasted below at the bottom. Please scroll to the bottom and read it first. The intention of the Conference is highly commendable. However, the contents of the Announcement seems to betray some common and popular errors. I have expressed some thoughts below. I hope you find it instructive. Hit 'delete' if you do not wish to read.

I remain,
your brother and servant in Christ,
sing
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[Here are my thoughts - written probably in Feb 2006].

Dear Pastor W...,

Thank you for the invitation to the Conference. I appreciate your kindness and expression of fellowship.

Reading the Announcement for the Conference provoked a few thoughts in my mind. Please permit me to make some comments about what is stated there.

A passage from Psalm 19 was quoted, "Psalm 19:7 is explicit - The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.”

What is thought 'explicit' about the text is elaborated by the next sentence; the text is believed to explicitly teach that “Scripture and Scripture alone, is sufficient and effective to deliver the souls of men from eternal damnation.”

Let me suggest a few things that seems explicit and plain to me from Ps 19:7.
Converting the soul is NOT regenerating the soul.
Making wise the simple is NOT making alive the dead.
The latter, regenerating and making alive, is the free and sovereign and direct work of the Triune God without any human instrumentality. The former, converting and making wise, is the solemn duty of the gospel ministry through the instrumentality of the perfect and sure Scriptures of God. I trust the distinction is plain and obvious.

Converting is NOT regenerating. Preached word converts the living but God alone regenerates the dead.
Making wise is NOT making alive. Preached word makes wise the ignorant but God alone makes alive the dead.
The latter is the free and sovereign and direct work of the Triune God that ALONE delivers His elect from their eternal damnation, by freely giving them eternal salvation through the effectual call. The former is the solemn responsibility of the gospel ministry to bring God's children (already born by His own sovereign work of effectual call to grace and salvation) to 'the obedience of the faith,' (Rom 1:5), thus to deliver from temporal damnation as a result of the ignorance of God's wonderful work of salvation. I trust the distinction is plain and obvious.

Scriptures DOES NOT deliver anyone from eternal damnation. The Triune God alone does. Scriptures and Scriptures alone DO inform and instruct God's children how God by His Son and Spirit has done this wonderful deliverance for them. I doubt that's what you have intended to say. But I may be wrong. This is not just semantics. Scriptures, which principally teach what man is to believe concerning God and what duty God requires of man, is most certainly all sufficient to instruct, build up and to equip the children of God, those that have been born of God.

To the spiritually dead, the gospel is utter foolishness, and the God-breathed Scriptures is unprofitable darkness. It is light only to the living. It is only to them that believe (and they believe because eternal life has been given to them when they were dead in their sin), the gospel is indeed the good news of God's power of saving them; they believe what is TRUE of them. To them that are perishing, the same gospel which declares God's power of salvation is foolishness, simply because they can't believe what is not true of them. To them that ARE SAVED, the gospel is indeed the message of the power of God in saving them, 1Cor 1:18.

The perfect and sure word of God (Scriptures) is indeed all sufficient to build up those who are already born with eternal life, delivered from eternal condemnation. The word of God, Scriptures, was never intended to make alive and deliver anyone from eternal condemnation. It is for the instruction and edification of those whom God has made alive, delivered from eternal condemnation, that they may know the truth, be converted and made wise concerning their eternal salvation bestowed upon them by free and sovereign grace. It is NEVER intended to make alive and deliver from eternal condemnation. However, Scripture and Scripture alone, is all sufficient and effective to HERALD to God's children and INSTRUCT them that God has delivered their souls from eternal damnation, and the manner He has done it, i.e. all by free and sovereign grace alone through His Son and Spirit. News has no power to save whatsoever; news announces to the saved the salvation that has taken place. 'For the preaching of the cross is unto them that perish foolishness, BUT unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God.'

There is a vast difference between saying that the Bible is sufficient to build up Christians and to equip them for every good work, and that Scripture and Scripture alone, is sufficient and effective to deliver the souls of men from eternal damnation. The former is a biblical truth. The latter is a gross but common misrepresentation. Scriptures does not make alive the dead, it sanctifies the living; it heralds to, and informs the living how God HAS freely given them eternal life in Christ Jesus by His Spirit. Scriptures is able to make one wise (informed and assured) concerning his salvation by the free grace of God. A birth certificate is a wonderful piece of revealed document; it is most certainly sufficient for making a man wise concerning his birth and parentage, and whatever information is revealed therein. However, it is certain that it plays no role whatsoever in the birth of the person.

Only a soul that God has effectually called to grace and salvation can be converted, and be made a disciple. Only a soul that the Holy Spirit has made alive with eternal life can be instructed, converted and made wise. Many believe the subtle lie that one without eternal life can believe in order to receive eternal life, believing that the activity of life is possible without life. They believe that preaching to the dead is the means God use to bring them to life. This is a grave misunderstanding of the ministry of the gospel. The gospel ministry was not instituted as a means to assist God to produce His children. Many love to think like that! However, the gospel ministry was instituted to make disciples, out of those whom God Himself has freely and effectually called to grace and salvation while spiritually dead, and to gather them into NT churches. The gospel ministry is NOT for gathering souls into heaven! It is for gathering into NT churches those whom God has born and made fit for heaven. The gospel ministry is NOT “Lazarus, come forth.” IT IS “loose him, and let him go.”

'Feed my sheep' is not the same as 'preach that sheep may be produced, preach that the dead may come to life by the Spirit'! Yes, we feed sheep by preaching, but we do not change dead into living by preaching! We don't turn children of wrath into children of God through the instrumentality of the gospel ministry. God's sovereign work of grace does that.'

It was asked, "Do we honestly still believe that sinners dead in sin can be made alive by the Holy Spirit when the Word is preached?' and Ezekiel 37:1-14 was quoted as a proof text for the idea expressed in the rhetorical question. Many always have and still do believe that sinners dead in sin are made alive by the Holy Spirit when the word is preached, i.e. regeneration is through the instrumentality of the preaching of the word. 'Gospel regeneration' is a doctrine embraced and advocated by many. Others believe in baptismal regeneration. Still others believe in decisional regeneration. All these are in the same category - divine regeneration is conditioned upon some human acts or assistance.

The Spirit of God makes alive His elect at His own appointed and approved time... NOT - NOT - NOT when the word is preached by a man. Let us be careful of conditioning the sovereign work of the Spirit of God to the feeble and fickle activity of men! It is true that a soul is converted through the preaching of the word that is owned and blessed by the Spirit - 1689.14.1. But the Heavenly Wind blows at God's appointed and accepted time in His work of regeneration, i.e. when, where and how He pleases. That's the truth, and it is wonderfully comforting. Making alive is solely and entirely the direct and sovereign work of God, without any assistance or co-operation from man. Even when regeneration does take place in the very midst of preaching, it is NOT because the Holy Spirit is dependent upon preaching to do His sovereign work of regeneration.

Quoting Ezekiel 37:1-14 to support the humanistic 'gospel regeneration' is as out of place as it can get, and eisegesis at its worst. On the one hand it ignores the plain purpose of the vision and its historical application to the Jews that were in captivity at the time. And then, the statement imposes a foreign and unbiblical doctrinal idea UPON the passage that fails in several ways to harmonize with the context and the literal lesson. This was a "vision" of a future work of God Himself in restoring the captive Jews back into the land of Israel. The "bones" were the WHOLE house of Israel, NOT the spiritually dead sinners. The house of Israel was NOT dead unregenerate sinners - for they are 'alive' and mourn, "Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our part;" but while in captivity, they were 'dead' like dry bones. The actual "bones" coming together with flesh and spirit DID NOT occur when Ezekiel prophesied. It was years later when this vision was actually fulfilled by God Himself. The bringing to life in the vision was God's sole act of restoring the Jews in captivity back 'into the land of Israel' (v12). No regeneration is spoken of in this passage, much less gospel regeneration.

Slaying a popular calvinistic LIE-zard!

Suppose the usage of the passage by the gospel regenerationist is valid, I fear that he ends up CLAIMING FAR TOO MUCH from this glorious vision shown to Ezekiel. If his claim be true, then it really takes only the instrumentality of ONE preacher and 'these bones of the WHOLE house of Israel' would be brought to life by his instrumentality alone since the vision explicitly said, through the prophesying activity of one man, the whole house of Israel came to life. How marvelous if there is truth in this claim!

As we rightly battled against those in the churches who degrade and despise the perfect and sure word of God, let us not exaggerate the role and function of the ministry of the word than is warranted by the sure and perfect Scriptures. Falling into the right ditch is no less worse than falling into the left ditch of the narrow road of truth. Preachers do not play any instrumental role in the spiritual birth of any elect. By divine appointment, they play a vital role in the instruction and nourishment of a child of God, i.e. in making and nurturing disciples of those already born of God. Midwives play NO ROLE whatsoever in the formation of lives in the wombs of mothers. Preachers play no role whatsoever in the regeneration of God's elect. It is a great delusion to claim otherwise.

The ministry of the word is very important... but only for the specific purpose it was divinely appointed for, i.e. to convert soul and to make wise, but never to regenerate dead soul or to make alive the dead in any instrumental sense. Thomas Brooks' quote does rightly glory in the manifold blessings of the Scriptures to the living children of God, but not a trace about it being an instrument to make the dead alive.

We bring "life and immortality to light through the gospel," but we do NOT bring life and immortality through the gospel (2 Tim 1:9-10). The preaching of the gospel brings to light, makes manifest, reveals 'life and immortality' that are ALREADY PRESENT in the effectually called elect. Only what is already present can be brought to light through the instrumentality of the gospel. The 1689.20.1 states simply that the gospel is the only outward means or instrument of revealing, NOT producing, Christ and saving grace. The gospel brings to light, it reveals and makes manifest Christ and saving grace in those effectually called to grace and salvation, 1689.10.1. It is an instrument to reveal, it was never an instrument to produce, Christ and saving grace. The preaching of the gospel DOES NOT bring 'life and immortality' to the spiritually dead. It is not an instrument to produce Christ and saving grace. That's a humanistic idea of naturalistic religions, an idea foreign to the biblical gospel of God.

The preaching of the gospel is a sweet savour of Christ to them that are SAVED; it is the savour of life unto those that possess life. It is NOT the savour of life unto the dead, unto those that are perishing, those that are spiritually dead. The righteousness of God is revealed from faith unto FAITH in the preaching of the gospel, from the preacher who is not ashamed of the gospel unto them that have faith worked in them by the Spirit of God; to them that are SAVED, to them that are LIVING and not to them that are DEAD. The righteousness of God is revealed not from faith unto UNBELIEF (spiritually dead) in the preaching of the gospel. It is the justified living ones, i.e. them that are SAVED, that shall believe, for it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'

Apostle Paul writes to those in Rome who are 'the beloved of God,' 'the called of Jesus Christ,' and 'called saints.' He even thanked God for their great faith. Yet, apostle Paul is so resolved, urgent and obligated to preach to them the gospel of God, the gospel of His Son, and earnestly desiring some fruit of conversion among them also, even as among other Gentiles. He felt the great and urgent need for these SAME Romans to hear and believe the gospel. These Romans are to be brought to the obedience of the faith. Are we missing some explicit truths concerning the role and function of the gospel so clearly implied in all these clear statements of Apostle Paul? Did Apostle Paul believe that regeneration takes place when he preaches?

Thomas Brooks rightly rejoices in the manifold and wonderful benefits of the word of God; all of them with respect to those who possess spiritual life. To give life is NOT named among the manifold blessings of the word of God. It is a point worth noting.

"Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful... a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 1Co 4:2, 2Ti 2:15.

Thank you for your patient listening. Please take no offence at my comments because none is intended. They are offered as from a fellow student of God's word, and a servant of Christ.

May the Scriptures and the ministry of the word begins to occupy their rightful place and biblical role in some churches as a result of the planned Conference.

I remain,

a servant in Christ,
sing

[p/s ever since this letter, the SC has quietly ceased fellowship with us!!! No further correspondence since! So much for RB churchmanship!]
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[Here is a portion of the Announcement in the invitation, red high light  mine.]

Dear servants of Christ,

Perfect in Converting, Sure in Making Wise

Psalm 19:7 is explicit. “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.” Scripture and Scripture alone, is sufficient and effective to deliver the souls of men from eternal damnation. Ancient but never obsolete, the Bible is equally sufficient to build up Christians and to equip them for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17). As one preacher succinctly puts it, ‘All of God’s work is done by God’s Word.’

But does this still hold true for the church of the 21st century? Do we honestly still believe that sinners dead in sin can be made alive by the Holy Spirit when the Word is preached? (Ezekiel 37: 1-14) Or do we now prop the preaching of the Word by gimmicks, side shows and seeker-sensitive preaching in order to win souls for Christ? Has narcissism and relativism so infiltrated the church that we let pop psychology and political correctness usurp the pulpit? Is the Bible too archaic to deal with (post)modern living problems? Where is the Word of God in our pulpit, evangelism and the pastoral ministry these days?

C.S. Lewis aptly remarked: “The charge to Peter was ‘Feed my sheep’; not ‘Try experiments on my rats’, or even ‘Teach my performing dogs new tricks.’” A cursory look at church practice today sadly reveals that many churches no longer hold to the Gospel as prescribed by the Good Physician. Instead we concoct our own remedies, palatable to the senses at the cost of the soul. We simply no longer serve it neat!

The conference theme this year will examine the place of Scripture in winning souls and pastoral care under Evangelistic Preaching & Sufficiency of Scripture in the Christian Ministry. Through these addresses we hope that the rightful place of Scripture in our church life will be reclaimed, and that as servants of Christ, we will rightly handle God’s Word – with reverence, care and to His glory. Come! Be challenged by the grandeur and glory of God’s Word in April 2006. We do look forward to fellowship with you.

The Word of the Lord is

a light to guide you, a counselor to counsel you,

a comforter to comfort you, a staff to support you,

a sword to defend you, and a physician to cure you.

The Word is a mine to enrich you, a robe to clothe you, and

a crown to crown you.
Thomas Brooks

A few thoughts on Mt 7:21-23

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Who is denied entry, and why?

Few are unfamiliar with this passage in the Sermon on the Mount. Its sound bytes are often used to blast off others to the lake of fire! But look again... is it saying what is popularly understood?

Matthew 7
 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Please note... it is at the end of the long sermon on the mount. Much has been said and heard. It is time to sum up, to conclude. It is wonderful to hear such profound teachings from the very lips of the Son of God - "And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

But the privileges of hearing God's word obligates God's children to do the Father's will.

Here are a few thoughts.

1. Who is Jesus Christ addressing?
-  They are those who have openly claimed Jesus Christ as their Lord. These most certainly can't be those who are still dead in trespasses and sins, i.e. those in enmity against God, and Christ. 
- Apostle Paul stated categorically. "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1Cor 12:3.
- They are those who have preached in Jesus' name. And in Jesus' blessed name, they have even performed miracles and did wonderful works. These can't be dismissed as false claims. Those dead in trespasses and sin would never willingly associate themselves with Jesus in such a manner; neither will they attribute their labours to Him! To think otherwise is just pure fiction.

- Then who is Jesus dealing with? God's children, every one who confesses Jesus as Lord. Jesus Christ is addressing them on a vital matter. Their confession of Christ shall not get them into the kingdom of heaven. It is doing the will of their Father who is in heaven.
- These are God's children who are disobedient to the will of their Father. They are being solemnly warned. Too many don't believe this stark reality the Lord Jesus is dealing with.
- The popular fable is, "All God's children do the will of the Father, and that those who don't do the will of the Father are not His children, to begin with."
- This fiction makes many solemn warnings in the Scriptures superfluous, and meaningless.

2. What issue is Jesus addressing?
- It is about entering the kingdom of heaven. This is distinct from entering heaven... where the Father is. Too many children of God CANNOT distinguish the two; not even self-acclaimed theologians!
- The former is conditioned upon DOING the will of the Father. The latter is conditioned solely upon the finished work of Jesus Christ. The former deals with the temporal salvation; the latter, the eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace alone, in Christ alone. 
- Not everyone that professes Christ's lordship [and only God's children can do so!] shall enter the kingdom of heaven which Christ has established with His work of redemption.
- The entrance into the kingdom of heaven is conditioned upon their doing the will of their Father.
- Not doing the will of their Father amounts to doing work of iniquity.
- The very mention of the doing of the will of the Father implies that those addressed are God's children. Who, but the children of God alone, has business and obligation to do the will of the Father? Only those children that do the will of the Father shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
- Those who don't shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. They shall continue in the old earthly theocratic kingdom of Israel, and perish with it when it ios dissolved and abolished.

3. Who is turned away from what, and when?
- These are charged as not doing their Father's will, therefore these can only refer to God's children.
-  God's children who do not do the will of their Father are turned away by Christ. They are not confessed by Christ, but denied before the Father. Mt 10:32-33. What redundancy, and superfluousness for Christ having to deny those who don't belong to the Father, to begin with? Such a foolish idea!
- "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Mt 12:50. Doing the will of Jesus' Father in heaven is equivalent to doing Jesus' will! He acknowledged and received such.
- Christ the Lord is ashamed to be associated with children of God who do not do the will of their Father. They shall have no part in the kingdom of heaven that Christ has established. He came to do His Father's will. He associated with those who do the same. He acknowledged not those who don't!

4. When does this turning away occur?
- "In that day" - on the great judgment day at the end of the Jewish world. A picture of that is painted in Mat 25:31-46.
- Mt 24-25 deals with the end of the Jewish world, ending with the judgment of the sheep and goats of the One same Shepherd. The Shepherd divided His sheep and goats.
- The sheep and goats DO NOT represent the elect and the non-elect; they represent God's children who are obedient and the disobedient respectively.
- It is not about the judgment at the end of the human world. For that see Rev 20:15-21
- They are not turned away from eternal heaven itself. On the great judgment day, such shall be resurrected unto eternal glory... which is not conditioned on anything but the free and sovereign grace of God alone. Their names were written in the book of life from eternity.

5. The parable following confirms this
- They who do the will of the Father spoken through his Son are delivered from the great destruction to come. That deliverance is conditioned upon their work of doing the will of their Father.
- Those who do the will of the Father are likened to wise men.
- Those who don't do the will of the Father are likened to foolish men.
- Which one are you? Where do you build your house?
- The outcome depends on whether one does the will of the Father or not. That's salvation by works, temporal salvation through the obedience of God's children, those whom God has bestowed eternal salvation by God's free grace in Christ alone.
- It is not the eternal salvation and entry into eternal glory. This is solely and wholly conditioned upon the redemptive work of Jesus Christ ALONE, plus nothing.

Is it that hard to understand?

"The hour is coming..." - what does it mean?

"... the hour is coming..."

I just learned something weird... puzzling.

I inquired:
Q. What is the first death - death in Adam, or death at the end of one's life?

Meiko replied:
I think the answer is found in John 5:25 compared with 5:28.
Regeneration is here referred to as a resurrection from death in sin.
The second resurrection is that of the body in verse 28. Those who have part in this first resurrection are delivered from the second death. On the other hand, those who remain dead in sin, even though
their bodies will be raised, will ultimately suffer an eternal second death, much as the burning bush was being destroyed yet not consumed. II Thes. 1:8-9

I replied;
Thank you very much.
Here are the verses you mentioned.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Both verse 25 and 28 are qualified "the hour is coming" - so I think it is a bit ARBITRARY to say that they refer to events separated by the "1000 years" between the two. How would you explain that?
[end]

Comments:
Several others responded to my initial inquiry: all defending, and insisting that the phrase "the hour is coming" is BROAD enough to include the regeneration that has already been happening for several thousands of years, AS WELL AS the resurrection on the great day of judgment several thousands of years into the future.

After several rounds of ding-donging with several others on the possible meaning of the phrase "the hour is coming..." I wrote:

Dear brethren,
Here are some passages where the phrase 'the hour is..." occur.

Mt 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mr 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Re 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

I believe the phrase uniformly indicate something imminent... something "which should shortly be",  with no reference to the past, and no reference to something few thousands years in the distance future.

Thanks, I rest my case. As always, I gladly concede that these xBs may still be right on this point.

You and I are disagreed. Small matter since we are in agreement on many other points!

Love you! I always appreciate a good sounding board!

sing
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Conclusion: if the phrase "the hour is coming" indicates something imminent, then John 5:25.28 can't be speaking of regeneration (which has been happening since many thousand years ago) or the resurrection at the end of the world (still thousands of years into the future).

Jesus Christ was speaking of something imminent... even the first resurrection recorded in Mt 27:51-53. That's the first resurrection referred to in Rev 20:4-6.

What did they say about plain and obvious sense, and seek no other sense but the common sense??? Or you will end up with nonsense?

Some mulling on TWO DEATHS AND TWO RESURRECTIONS

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:

I wrote to a study group to inquire:

Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 3:42 AM
Subject: first death, second death

Dear Brethren,
I may sound silly. Still, I need to ask...

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

What is the first death - death in Adam, or death at the end of life?

Now the second death - when does/did it happen to a man? judgment at death, or judgment on resurrection day?

Thanks.
sing

A dear brother responded thus:

Date: November 18, 2013 9:11:44 PM GMT+08:00
Brother Sing,
Inserted below is a short study I did some time back.  This is a good opportunity for me to have the input of able brethren so I can correct and update any aspect of this that is inconsistent with the teaching of Scripture.
May God Bless, WP.
[Short study pasted below...]

I replied:
Date: November 18, 2013 11:19:53 PM GMT+08:00
Thank you, Brother W.
Below is your short study, interspersed with my comments within it in orange. 
See some orange comments within your short study.
sing
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XVI.  TWO DEATHS AND TWO RESURRECTIONS (REVELATION 20:1-22:15)

In Revelation 20 John gives more details regarding what will occur when Jesus returns again from heaven.  Revelation 19:11

 An angel is come down from heaven to bind Satan.  This "angel" is symbolic or representative of Jesus Christ who has bound Satan and spoiled his goods.  Revelation 20:1-2  and Mark 3:27.

The result of Satan being bound is that he can deceive the nations no more.  Revelation 20:3  This is spoken of as being for one thousand years, which is a symbolic or figurative period of time.  What this one thousand year period represents is much disputed, and will be briefly discussed below.  However, what is not subject to dispute is that this section of Revelation teaches the eternal security of those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life; and the eternal punishment of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.  While God’s children are judged eternally by the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them, those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life are judged by their works.  Revelation 20:6, 20:12 and 20:15

Those that are Christ's live and reign with Christ during the "one thousand years" discussed in these verses.  Revelation 20:5  This one thousand years is between the first resurrection and the second death.  Therefore, to understand what this one thousand year reign with Christ encompasses requires an understanding and proper interpretation of the "first resurrection" and the "second death" discussed in Revelation 20:5 and 20:14.

It has been observed that man that is born once dies twice; but man that is born twice dies but once.  Review the following discussion and determine whether you agree with this principle!

            a.         First Death.  If there is a "second" death, there obviously must be a "first" death.  The first death of man is the fall and resulting death in trespasses and sins.  This is described in Romans 5:12 where it is stated that as a result of sin entering by one man "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." The first death is a death in trespasses and sins.  This first death passed upon all men through Adam and all men have part in this first death (1 Corinthians 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.)

## So, in your statement of "man is born once die twice" - he died before he was born, and died again at the final judgment?

What about that statement in Hebrews: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." Heb 9:27

Please tell, which death is spoken of here? Is this death reckoned or factored into in your "man is born once die twice?

            b.         Second Death.  The second death of man is the death of those that are dead in trespasses and sins when they receive "their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."  Revelation 21:8  It is not a reference to natural death, but rather to God’s judgment and eternal condemnation.  This is evident because God's children do die a natural death, but it has no power over them because they have been born again.  See Acts 26:10 and Romans 5:17

Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire which is described as the "second death."  Revelation 20:14  This second death is the portion of everyone that is not found written in the book of life.  Revelation 20:15  In summary, the second death is the eternal condemnation of the wicked.

##  Something just caught my attention:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, the emptied death and hell were cast into the lake of fire... since death and hell had first delivered up the dead which were in them. This is most certainly not the same as saying all those in death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. The very next verse will forbid such idea. Only those whose name were not written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire.This presupposes that among those delivered up by death and hell are those whose names were written in the book of life.

            c.         First Resurrection.  This spiritual resurrection is the new birth as described by Jesus when he said "the hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."  John 5:25  This same spiritual birth or resurrection was also described by John's statement that God's children "have passed from ________ unto ________."  1 John 3:14

Those that have part in the first resurrection are those that have been quickened by God's spirit, i.e. "you hath he __________who were dead in trespasses and sins."  Ephesians 2:1
This first resurrection delivers God's children from the first death and the penalty of sin.

That the saints are raised with Christ at the new birth, the first resurrection, is also confirmed by the following scriptures:

Ephesians 2:6     And hath __________ us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:12     Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath _________ him from the dead.

Colossians 3:1     If ye then be ____________ with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Romans 5:17      For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Those who have part in the first resurrection, God’s children, reign with Christ in this life.  All that are partakers of the first resurrection are made priests with God.  The scriptures teach that we are made priests and kings and reign with God during this life.  1 Peter 2:5, Revelation 1:6 and Revelation 20:6

The scriptures also teach that those are blessed who have a part in the first resurrection, for the second death shall have no power over them.  Revelation 20:6  This obviously is God's children that are called, chosen and saved by his grace.  They are saved from the eternal condemnation of the second death.

## I begin to think that it is an obvious error to equate the first resurrection as regeneration!  Such equation just don't measure up.

If you taken John 5:25 to mean regeneration, you necessarily imply that prior to that statement of Christ there was NO regeneration! 25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." The life-giving voice of the eternal Logos has been operative since the beginning of human history. I have heard of some people say that there was no regeneration in the OT until Christ send for His spirit.

I believe Jesus was speaking of literal resurrection... in John 5:25,28, and that literal FIRST resurrection is fulfilled here.

Mt 27: 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [MANY, not all. "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."]

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is a record of the literal resurrection spoken of by Christ in John 5:25,28. [Please note, both verses speak of singular call, many resurrected.]

Some of the dead among God's children were resurrected... the FIRST RESURRECTION. The rest of the dead (obviously belonging to the same group, i.e. God's children) were not raised UNTIL the "1000 years" were over... a fact stated plainly in Rev 20 - 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

"They that lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" - were those from the first resurrection stated in Mt 27:51-53. They were the first resurrection... the REAL first resurrection.

            d.         Second Resurrection.  The second resurrection is the resurrection of the body.  This second resurrection is described by Jesus when he said that "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; and they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."  John 5:28-29

## The time frame 'the hour is coming" cannot possibly be used for something thousands of years in the future. I just don't buy it.  You can quote 2Pet 3;8, I still won't buy it! The time frame is the same for John 5:25 and 5:28. Can't put "1000 years between the two!

John 5:28 reads like this: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice." Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

That Mt 27:52 is the fulfillment of John 5:28 is the plain sense I can see. Objection that not ALL that are in the graves were resurrected is a minor one.

It appears from these verses that the one thousand year period figuratively represents the period in the life of God's children beginning with the time they are born of God's spirit and ending when they will be carried to their heavenly home to ever be with the Lord.  Those that are alive and the souls of those that were beheaded and of those who did not worship the beast and did not bare his mark shall live and reign with Christ during this thousand years.  Revelation 20:4  Notice that there is nothing in this verse that says that each of God’s children will live and reign for one thousand years, but rather that “they,” collectively, will live and reign with him.   Throughout this representative period of time there are some of the Lord’s children that live and reign with him.

 Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The passage speaks of ONE SPECIFIC group of people among the dead mentions in verse 5. It cannot possibly refer to the regenerated in general. The description simply does not match.

Thus the first resurrection CANNOT possibly refer to the regeneration of God's people in the new covenant! It refers to that real resurrection of some dead saints with the resurrection of Christ... recorded in Mt 27:52.

All of mankind will be raised at the time of Christ's return and the resurrection of the body.  All men died in the first death since the scriptures teach that death has passed upon all men.  Romans 5:12

Mat 27:52 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

            a.         There are some that died in the first death which lived again.  The fact that they "lived" is described as the first resurrection.  Revelation 20:5  This is the new birth.  Those that lived again and have part in the first resurrection, on them the second death has no power. Revelation 20:6

## NOPE! They were elect... dead in Adam... but regenerated in Christ... died... BUT actually resurrected with Christ, the first fruits.

Just my opinion... thinking as I dream... so free of charge!

Just be a sharp sounding board for me, and I will be very grateful to you.

sing

==

p/s I will leave the rest... enough said.

Feel free to write to me at singpenang@gmail.com ... if you have any warnings for me. I would really appreciate your kindness. Any rebuttal or light are welcome too.

=========

[short study continues... below]

            b.         Then there are those described as the "rest of the dead" who lived not again until the thousand years were finished.  Revelation 20:5  Their physical body will be resurrected from the grave.  These dead are judged according to their works.  They are not written in the book of life and are cast into the lake of fire.  Revelation 20:12-13

The second death has power over those whose names are not written in the book of life but has no power over those whose names are there written.  Those whose names are written in the book of life are the same ones who have part in the first resurrection. Revelation 20:14-15  The second death has no power over them; they are eternally secure in Jesus!

Those that are in Christ Jesus are judged out of the book of life.  Revelation 20:12  For these that belong to Christ, John saw a new heaven and a new earth.  This was prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  This belongs to His church made up of all of God's people of all ages.  Revelation 21:2-3

John describes the wonderful blessings of God's children even in that day of judgment.  Revelation 21:4

The bride, the Lamb's wife, is figurative of the church.  Revelation 21:10  All that will enter into heaven with the Lamb are "they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."  Revelation 21:27

[End of WP short study.] 

========

John 5:25,28 - Is regeneration the first resurrection?

And the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection,
and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many....
But the rest of the dead lived not again
until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

This is the first resurrection

 What is the first resurrection?

Date: Sunday, November 17, 2013 3:42 AM
Subject: first death, second death

Dear Brethren,
I may sound silly. Still, I need to ask...
What is the first death - death in Adam, or death at the end of life?

Now the second death - when does/did it happen to a man? judgment at death, or judgment on resurrection day?

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Concerning Rev 20:6... the reigning with him a thousand years - is this BEFORE or AFTER the second death?

Thanks.
sing
 

Brother Meik responded:
Date: November 17, 2013 9:04:10 PM GMT+08:00
Sing,
I think the answer is found in John 5:25 compared with 5:28. Regeneration is here referred to as a resurrection from death in sin. The second resurrection is that of the body in verse 28. Those who have part in this first resurrection are delivered from the second death. On the other hand, those who remain dead in sin, even though their bodies will be raised, will ultimately suffer an eternal second death, much as the burning bush was being destroyed yet not consumed. II Thes. 1:8-9

Some brief thoughts,  Bro. Meik


I replied:
Date: November 18, 2013 9:26:44 AM GMT+08:00
Brother Meik,
Thank you very much.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Both verses 25 and 28 are qualified by "the hour is coming" - so I think it is a bit ARBITRARY to say that they refer to events separated by the "1000 years" between the two. How would you explain that?
[It seems plain and simple that both are speaking of the same thing...]

Verse 28 reminds me of Mt 27
 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And this: Rev 20
 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I'm beginning to think that "the rest of the dead" here refers to the dead of God's children who were not resurrected in that FIRST RESURRECTION spoken of in Mt 27.

Tell me what you think. I need sharp sounding boards to aid me to think.
Amen gallery has no use to me!   sing


Meik wrote:
Date: November 18, 2013 10:44:04 AM GMT+08:00
Sing,
I don't think there is 1,000 literal years anywhere, either in John or in the Revelation. The Revelation is a book largely of signs and symbols as indicated in the first chapter by the word "signified."

John 5:25 mentions that the hour is coming and now is….the sense in which the dead are now hearing the voice of the Son of God, and thereby living, is regeneration, not the resurrection of the body. Verse 28 refers to the resurrection of the body.

The second death has no power over those who have part in this first resurrection (regeneration) mentioned in John's didactic writings.  Bro. Meik


I replied:
Date: November 18, 2013 12:00:58 PM GMT+08:00
Meik,
You are DISTRACTED.... I did put 1000 years within "1000 years."
1000 years is that DEFINITE long period between the two comings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
[At the very beginning of that "1000 years" some dead saints were resurrected TOGETHER with Christ, and they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a "1000 years."]

But regeneration has been happening ever since the beginning of the world.
Many people believe there was no regeneration before Christ resurrection.

So, the resurrection which is thousands of years ahead is ALSO something within the SAME time frame of "the hour is coming"???????????????? Really? Hmmm.

What's your comment on verse 28? It reminds me of Mt 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. [These dead saints were resurrected TOGETHER after with Christ, and they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a "1000 years."]

Was that a real resurrection, or a figurative resurrection? Honest question - no hook inside!
Thanks for being a sounding board.  sing


Meik responded:
Date: November 19, 2013 3:51:43 AM GMT+08:00
Sing,
The language of John 5:25 does not exclude the fact that OT saints were born again. If it does, it would also exclude your interpretation, because some were raised from the dead before Matt. 27
Bro. Meik


I replied:
Date: November 19, 2013 10:29:52 AM GMT+08:00
Meik,
John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

If this statement is understood as regeneration, and the time frame stated is "the hour is coming, and now is" then the time frame limits what is spoken to the present at the time of speaking. It excludes the past. You decide whether it excludes regeneration prior to this.

I understand  this verse as literal resurrection... which is recorded in Mt 27:51-53.
So how does it exclude my interpretation?
I'm puzzled. sing

Meik responded:
Date: Nov 19, 2013, at 10:58 PM, 

Sing,
If you say it excludes the past, and if that is true, then it cannot be a bodily resurrection either, because others were raised from the dead prior to the event in Matt. 27. DM


I replied:
Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 3:10 PM
Meik,
Please show us another resurrection prior to that first resurrection recorded in Mt 27:51-53. Thank you very much. "... many bodies of the saints which slept arose."
sing

Meik responded:
Date: November 19, 2013 11:18:38
Sing,
Since I only need one example to prove the point, what about Lazarus in John 11:44
DM

I replied:
Date: November 19, 2013 11:33:24 PM GMT+08:00
Meik,
Yes, you have wonderfully proven your point.


I would still take what is recorded in Mt 27:51-53 as the first resurrection. 
There wasn't any like that before... But if you think Lazarus fits the description, then it fits for you!

 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Why is it so hard to concede that John 5:25,28 cannot be speaking of regeneration, when the implication is SO PLAIN!
[These two verses speak in the PLURAL - John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."]
sing


Meik responded:
On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:27 AM,
Sing,
Regeneration fits the context very well. Not only is regeneration spoken of as a resurrection in other Scriptures, but verse 25 obviously extends the thought of passing from death to life from the end of verse 24.
Also, verse 25 makes no reference to bodies or to the graves as does verse 28. Not only does the Lord have power to raise from death in sin, but the passage goes on to tell that he has power and authority to raise the bodies from the graves at the final judgment day (verse 27-28).

I replied:
November 20, 2013 9:36:18 AM GMT+08:00
Brother Meik,
The time frame "the hour is coming" points to something imminent if words still have meaning,
something coming to pass imminently. So I will take both John 5:25,28 as speaking of literal rising from the dead... [which took place shortly after in Mt 27:51-53.]

John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

If speaking of regeneration, those words necessarily imply there were no regeneration before.
Words have meanings, and their implications.
Thanks. sing.

Brother Smithy joined in:
On Nov 20, 2013, at 1:14 AM

Dear Brother Sing,
Your statement - "If John 5:25 is understood as regeneration, and the time frame stated is "the hour is coming, and now is’ then the time frame limits what is spoken of the present at the time of speaking. It excludes the past.” - seems non-sequitur to me.  After all, if I say, “the sun will rise every day until the Lord returns, and it rises today” I do not exclude the fact that it rose yesterday.

At the resurrection, Matthew and Mark record that women at the tomb of Jesus Christ met one angel.  Luke and John record that two angels were seen.  Stating that they saw one angel does not preclude them seeing two.

I do believe that regeneration has been taking place at least as early as the time of Abel, and do not think John 5:25 contradicts that, even though I think the Lord is referring to regeneration in that verse.     Love, Smithy


I responded;
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 8:41 PM
Brother Smithy
Thanks for your thought... You ride a nice scooter!
Your illustration about the sun would require "the hour is coming, and has been..."
Thank you. sing


Smithy wrote:
On Nov 20, 2013, at 9:47 AM,
Dear Brother Sing,
No, I could say it just as I wrote below, describing the future and present state with no reference to the past, without excluding the veracity of the past sunrises – I merely did not mention them.  And I think this is just what the Lord Jesus did in John 5:25.

Furthermore, since regeneration is an ongoing event, the Lord could say, “the hour is coming” and mean future events in the next hour, and also future events in subsequent hours for thousands of years, and still be accurate in His statement.    Love, Smithy

I replied:
November 20, 2013 1:12:30 PM GMT+08:00

Dear brother Smithy,
Here are some passages where the phrase 'the hour is..." occurs:

Mt 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mr 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Re 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

I believe the phrase uniformly indicates something imminent... something "which should shortly be",  with no reference to the past, and no reference to something few thousands years ahead.

Thanks, I rest my case. As always, PBs may still be right on this point.
You and I are disagreed here. Small matter since we are in agreement on many other points!

Love you! I always appreciate a good sounding board. sing

Another look at Matthew 25:31-36 and Rev 20:11-15

And before him shall be gathered all nations:
and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

I wrote to a study group to inquire on a matter:

Date: Sunday, November 17, 2013 3:42 AM
Subject: first death, second death
Dear Brethren,
I may sound silly. Still, I need to ask...
What is the first death - death in Adam, or death at the end of life?

Now the second death - when does/did it happen to a man? judgment at death, or judgment on resurrection day?

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Concerning Rev 20:6... the reigning with him a thousand years - is this BEFORE or AFTER the second death?

Thanks.
sing
===

Brother K responded:
Date: November 19, 2013 12:01:47 AM GMT+08:00
Brethren,
What bro  Sing is driving at is that disobedient elect can go to literal hell upon death and await the resurrection and then enter into glory.

Jesus warnings about Hell to His disciples is one  basis for his position.  I believe these warnings (teaching about the reality of Hell) serve as a check against sin and foster a living appreciation of what we have actually been delivered from when the light of God shines within us revealing our depravity.

My thoughts are the he makes erroneous assumptions due to Rev 20 having the book life open.

Matthew 25, I believe, is the exhonoration of those on God's right hand, and the judgement of the goats on God's left hand.

The goats are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

So, what I believe we are seeing in Rev 20, with the book life being opened is Matthew 25 viewed from the left hand of God to the center. No mention of the righteous here , only those that are cast into the lake of fire.

I will go on record that I believe Jesus paid our sin debt in full. Further His merit and sacrifice delivered us not only from the lake of fire, but literal hell also.

To teach that the elect can go to hell undermines the very essence of salvation, and denies that Jesus finished the work God sent Him to do.

Tremendous scriptural gymnastics (see below) are required to arrive at his position.

May The Lord Bless,
Brother K


I replied to the above:
Date: November 19, 2013 10:20:23 AM GMT+08:00
Brother K, and brethren,
Let me leave a few comments in your post. Your words in italic.
I wonder if should write, and waste my time... would any one read and give it careful consideration... and interact honestly. 

What bro  Sing is driving at is that disobedient elect can go to literal hell upon death and await the resurrection and then enter into glory.

Jesus warnings about Hell to His disciples is one  basis for his position.  I believe these warnings (teaching about the reality of Hell) serve as a check against sin and foster a living appreciation of what we have actually been delivered from when the light of God shines within us revealing our depravity.

## How does the teaching about the reality of hell serve as a check against sin if it is impossible for the redeemed to be touched by that real literal Hell?

My thoughts are the he makes erroneous assumptions due to Rev 20 having the book life open.
Matthew 25, I believe, is the exhonoration of those on God's right hand, and the judgement of the goats on God's left hand.

## I have been relooking at Mt 25... WITHOUT the coloured glasses given to me.
Been looking at the Mt 25:31ff again.

v32 "as a shepherd divideth HIS HIS HIS sheep from the goats." Both the goats and the sheep belong to the shepherd. So it makes more sense to differentiate the sheep and the goats as obedient and disobedient among the redeemed, rather than elect and non elect.

Next, it is clearly stated that the inheritance of the kingdom mentioned (v35... "for ye did this, this, this, this ...")  is BASED on the works and merits of the sheep. That can't be the eternal glory after the resurrection... which is determined solely whether the names were written in the Lamb's book of life!

Then, we see obvious indication that the goats DO KNOW the Lord who judges them... see v44. They are obviously people who were DESIROUS to minister to the Lord. Perhaps these are celebrity believers, the rich and haughty believers... [They most probably represent God's children among the Jews who failed to recognize Jesus was the very Messiah they were waiting for.]

Finally, verse 41 "ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." This can't possibly be the final lake of fire. Rev 20:10 "And the devil... was cast into the lake of fire." Where was the devil before he was cast into the late of fire on the great judgment day? Hell... everlasting fire... UNTIL delivered up on the resurrection day to be cast into the lake of fire. 

Hell is between death and resurrection; lake of fire is after resurrection on judgment day. This is plain and obvious.

The goats are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

## READ again the last comment above... [everlasting fire is not their final destiny. On judgment day, the devil and his angels are cast into the lake of fire, together with those ONLY whose names are not written in the book of life.]

Most are SO SETTLED in their beliefs that it is VERY HARD for them to rethink... may be because of HERD mentality, and needing to conform to the group.

Think again. I now believe Mt 24-25 is on one subject only... the end of the Jewish world, with the judgment with it. At the end of the Jewish world there was a great judgment, and at the end of the human world, there is also a great judgment. Mt 25 speaks of the former, and Rev 20 speaks of the latter! That makes sense to me. May sound stupid to all, but beginning to make lots of sense to me.

The goats in Mt 25 hardly represents the non-elect. They give clear indication they know the Lord, and were desirous to serve him... BUT failed badly. Perhaps like the rich man with respect to Lazarus! 

So, what I believe we are seeing in Rev 20, with the book life being opened is Matthew 25 viewed from the left hand of God to the center. No mention of the righteous here , only those that are cast into the lake of fire.

## So what I believe is that Mt 25 deals with the judgment at the end of the JEWISH world, and Rev 20 deal with the end of the HUMAN world. The distinction in Mt 25 is the faithful and unfaithful among the redeemed [among the Jews... the goats being those redeemed who did not receive Christ as the Messiah!]. The distinction in Rev 20 is between those whose names were written in the book of life, and those who were not. [That's why books were opened!]

I will go on record that I believe Jesus paid our sin debt in full. Further His merit and sacrifice delivered us not only from the lake of fire, but literal hell also.

## I will also go on record that Jesus Christ paid the sin debt of all those whose names were written in the book of life, I included. And that GUARANTEES our deliverance from the eternal lake of fire. Christ redemptive works delivered His people from the like of fire... which explains why there was NEVER a single warning against the lake of fire addressed to the redeemed.

I also put on record that the Lord's solemn and repeated warning against hell to His redeemed people can so easily be repudiated, nullified, and made of none effect by the same!

To teach that the elect can go to hell undermines the very essence of salvation, and denies that Jesus finished the work God sent Him to do.

## To teach that the redeemed may go to hell affirmed Christ's solemn and constant warnings to the redeemed against the fearsome reality of hell. Otherwise we make mockery of Christ's solemn words. To affirm that the redemptive work of Jesus Christ secured deliverance from the lake of fire correctly upholds the very essence of the eternal redemption. Hell is a temporal place between death and resurrection. Lake of fire is for eternity after resurrection.

Tremendous scriptural gymnastics (see below) are required to arrive at his position.

## I still swing from branches to branches on my mangoes trees (30-40 ft high) ... and I'm agile still to read and learn the Scriptures. Old stiff minds stay happy where they are no matter what! [They have arrived... I haven't, and am still learning.]

Thank you, Elder K for this opportunity to study the Scriptures.

May The Lord Bless,
Elder K

## Always feel very blessed when digging in the Lord's treasure mine!!
Our Lord bless you, Elder.
swinging in the mango trees.


Elder K responded:
Date: November 19, 2013 10:53:48 AM GMT+08:00
Bro Sing,
I am done.  There will be no re- hashing of this subject by me. We have been over it time and again.
The things I wrote today, I wrote to warn the  brethren what you were up to.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Elder K


I replied:
Date: November 19, 2013 11:17:29 AM GMT+08:00
Brother K,
I am all for the free inquiry of the truth.
You can oppose all you want, and I SINCERELY thank you for it...
BECAUSE that will only drive all of God's children CLOSER towards the truth!

You have arrived, and are comfortably settled.
I have not, and am still studying and inquiring.
Give me CREDIBLE rebuttal next time.
Don't rehash the same thing. That doesn't make you a good soldier.
See! I still have a great capacity to laugh while we fight for the truth.
RELAX, brother!  RELAX!

Your friend in the far east!!!
sing


Brother K responded:
Date: November 19, 2013 11:57:34 AM GMT+08:00
Sorry bro Sing.
I find the truth no laughing matter.

Further, I am, as you are, in that I trust I learn  something every day (if not deceived), and I have not arrived and am never comfortably settled to know all truth.

You have been given ample credible rebuttal in another forum. We will not change each other’s position at this time. In the mean time I will continue to study the scripture always trying the spirits, whether they be of God. In this case,  the spirit of the teaching you are setting forth does not pass the test.

You are welcome to it,  but I'll have none of it,  and will warn the brethren every time you come near with it.
May The Lord guide you into all truth.


I replied:
Date: November 19, 2013 12:23:24 PM GMT+08:00
Brother K,
You do look very sorry, :-)
The total sum of your rebuttal on another forum has been FULLY presented here already.
If you have any more, bring them forth, and we can study together in the light of Scriptures...
in this "amen gallery" - your home ground!!! I'm aware that I'm in a lions' den!
But this lions' den is a mighty good place to maul and slay errors, and revive truth... because the lions  here are mighty and sharp!

May the Lord guide you into some truth you have overlooked!
sing
====

How hell is subtly denied... conveniently explained away!

A fiery hell in my garden!

How hell is denied... conveniently explained away.
Read the exchange below... 

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

The Lord Jesus Christ spake these solemn words to His own disciples!!!

Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Others say, "Fear not! Hell is figurative only to God's children. Hell does not apply to God's children! It is real for others only."


Elder K wrote:
OK bro Sing, I will ask you.
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matt 5:29

Did you literally pluck your eye out the last time you lusted after a woman? Are both of your eyes still in tact? Would you purposely defile the temple of God? (your body?
Simple yes or no will suffice.

[One detects right away the rhetorical intent of the questions with the aim to advance a certain fable! sing]

I replied:
All honest questions deserve honest answers.
No, Christ is not asking me to literally pluck out my eyes.
He is commanding me to take real literal drastic measures to deal with my real LITERAL sins... and solemnly warned that if I don't I will be cast into the real literal  hell at my death, there waiting for my resurrection to eternal glory.

My answer to your second question - 'would I purposely defile the temple of God, my body?
My answer: neither 'yes' nor 'no' but this: the questioner is a little imbecile!

Why should my answers be dictated by the questioner's condition???

I am laughing hard at such a desperate question! 

Elder K responded:
It is a fair question. If you were to literally pluck your eye out, or cut off your hand you would be defiling the temple of your body, which was made in the image of God.

Since you admit it is not a literal plucking of the eye, then the lesson MUST by course be figurative or allegorical, and therefore it is not literal hell under consideration.
Thank you very much. Finally.

[Elder K's argument goes like this...

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."  Since you don't literally eat Christ's flesh nor drink Christ's blood, then the eternal life spoken of MUST of course be figurative or allegorical, and therefore it is not literal eternal life under consideration]

Sing F Lau
Those solemn warnings of hell from the very lips of Christ - they can be so easily repudiated... explained away, and made of none effect - ESPECIALLY those directed towards God's children! But suddenly the hell for the non-elect is LITERAL!
Thank you.

Elder K
Please lets not resort to name calling by implication. You have a right to think I am imbecile. Prefacing your remark by saying " a little" doe snot make it less offensive.

Sing F Lau
Eider, a man is defiled by SINS... not cutting off his body parts.
You have just mismatched, [and abused] two passages of Scriptures!

The question is indeed what I said it is.
[Your question: "Would you PURPOSELY defile the temple of God? (your body?).
You have just equated what Christ has commanded His people to do as PURPOSELY defiling their bodies!!!]

I'm done with this thread. Thanks for the liberty to jog around your turf!

Elder K
I think you are attempting to deflect from your admission. Matt 5:29 is NOT literal, but figurative.
Trust me, I am more hard headed than you are.

Sing F Lau
What is not literal, and what is figurative?
Isn't sin spoken of literal? Or is Christ speaking of figurative sins???
Is the drastic effort to deal with real sins not literal real effort but just figurative effort?
Is the hell to be avoided not literal but figurative?

[No, I'm not hard headed at all. So, don't assume so. Yes, you are one indeed, by your own words! Pretty obvious!]

Elder K
I'm done. The point has been proven. Trying to muddy the waters with confusing questions does not change the fact you admitted Matt 5:29 is not literal.

Always appreciate the exchange.

Signed, " little imbecile." [ah, you feel sore!, sing]

Have a nice day.
=======

MY CONCLUSION: how the Lord's teaching on hell is so conveniently explained away!

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect 

through your tradition, which ye have delivered: 

and many such like things do ye.

The Elder K's idea about hell is probably something like this: 

- all references to hell is figurative for God's people. None will go there, thus all the solemn warnings of Christ directed to His disciples are redundant and superfluous!

- they can be cast into a figurative hell, then pull themselves out of it again, and be cast into it again, and get out of it again, etc.

- BUT the same figurative hell is as real and literal as can be for others... probably a one way ticket, once cast in, never to come out UNTIL hell delivers them up on the resurrection day for judgment!


Rev 20
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Some plain observations:
- None of God's people shall be in the lake of fire. They, whose names were written in the book of life, shall all be glorified and enter into their eternal inheritance... even those who were cast into hell at their death. 

- There is a clear distinction between hell and the lake of fire. Hell is temporal, operative between physical death and the great judgment day. The lake of fire is everlasting, becomes operative at the great judgment.

- Death and hell shall deliver up all those that were cast into it on the resurrection day, for the great judgment. Those among them whose names were not written in the book of life shall be judged, and cast into the lake of fire. 

- Those who names were written the book of life have been judged in Christ, shall enter into their glorious inheritance.

The Lord Jesus Christ gave this solemn warning to His own disciples!!!

Lu 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Mt 5:29 "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Mt 23:23 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

Others teach, "Fear not! Hell is figurative only to God's children. Hell does not apply to God's children! It is real for others only."

Re 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; 

and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; 

and have the keys of hell and of death." 

John 3:16-18 : An excessively mouthed but hardly inquired passage. Let's ask some questions.

John 3;16! How did God so love?
Such an excessively mouthed but hardly inquired passage...

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10200978067469384
November 14, 2013

 An excessively mouthed but hardly inquired passage...

John 3
 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

May I ask some questions, please?

Q1. How did God so love?
- Did He so love that He offers everlasting life to those (obviously without everlasting life) who will believe? Or,
- Did He so love that He gives everlasting life to those (obviously without everlasting life) by freely regenerating them when they were dead in trespasses and sins?

2. Does a man believe
- IN ORDER to get everlasting life? Or,
- BECAUSE he has been so loved and given everlasting life?

3. Who are they that are called, and are duty-bound to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour?
- All men without distinction, including those for whom Christ did not die to redeem, and is not their Saviour? Or,
- Those for whom Jesus Christ died to redeem, and IS their Saviour?
- Who are under obligation to believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour?

4. Is a man called to believe Jesus...
- SO THAT Jesus becomes his Saviour?  Or,
- BECAUSE Jesus IS ALREADY His Saviour?

5. Is a man called to believe...
- something that is already true? Or,
- something not yet true in order to make it come true?

6. Those that believe not and are condemned, do they have the obligation to believe, or do they not?
- What's the basis of that obligation?
- What's the basis of that condemnation?

7. Those who have obligation to believe but don't, and are condemned...
- What is their condemnation?
- Is that condemnation in this life, or the hell between death and resurrection, or the lake of fire after resurrection?

If you have any other questions, please add them to the list.

Asking questions is a good way to inquire after the truth. So many lack the basic skill of inquiry, and asking questions... their pastors don't make them think anymore. They are afraid their sheep ask them questions!!!

=============

I wrote to assure and encourage a sheep who timidly inquired:

"It is always good to ask questions to further the cause of the truth of Christ. May our Lord Jesus Christ bless us with more of His truth. Usually, this is through questions and inquiries that stir up our minds to study and examine the Scriptures.
 
"Fear not, and rest assured that I always take questions in the positive light. Inquiring after the truth is beneficial to all. Thus I do and always welcome questions inquiring after what the Bible teaches. This benefits all by bringing each one closer to the teaching of the Bible. The truth is understood better by all who are interested. Often, the matter inquired does not even occur in the mind of others. So, asking questions publicly has its own benefit... stirring the minds of fellow brethren to grapple with the subject, and grow together.

"Asking questions to inquire after the truth of God is a BIRTH-RIGHT of every one of God's children, and it is the solemn responsibility of Christ's given pastors-teachers to provide them answers from the Scriptures. You have asked some good questions. Asking good probing questions is a skill to be developed."

========

Related articles:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/12/for-god-so-loved-world.html
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/02/john-316-how-did-god-so-love.html
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/08/calvin-on-john-316.html
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/09/it-is-reprobates-duty-to-believe-christ.html