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| 'Here, please accept this flower. Please take it.' Who do you think is the offer made to, to one who is dead, to one who is alive? I know the superstitious offers all sort of things - bank notes of the Bank of Hell, roast pork, all the delicacies you can think of - to the dead! |
Preaching and Free Offer
Howdy Sing,
Some questions to help me better understand where you are coming from before I continue the discussion.
1. Do all men have an obligation to believe in Christ, placed on them by God?
2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men?
3. Can, or does, God ever see the elect as sinful?
4. Is evangelism needed, and if so, why?
Thanks,
A forgiven sinner,
Brainy Giant
=======
Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:59 am
Brainy,BG: Some questions to help me better understand where you are coming from before I continue the discussion.
## I am coming from the deep of the south seas... I have said something for the discussion to continue. If you don't understand what I have said, then ask. If you disagree then state why and give your understanding.
You freely asked, and I freely offer my sandy (not concrete) opinions of the south seas. Lad in the south seas can only offer sandy opinion - no smooth soft mud around.
1. Do all men have an obligation to believe in Christ, placed on them by God?
## All men being sinners are under obligation to repent towards God. NO sinner has any right to remain in sin. Every single sinner is under divine obligation - because of the covenant of creation - to repent and turn from his sins. And none would repent but those whom God has sovereignly and freely and effectually called to grace and salvation.
I do believe the question sound stupid [i.e. lacking common sense!] to me... now please know that I am not being rude. I am not. God is my witness. Just think why I do think the question is stupid.
Why are all men under the divine obligation to believe Christ as Saviour when Christ is not the saviour of all men? Why are all men to believe Christ as their Saviour when Christ is not the Saviour of all men? That would amount to God putting some men under divine obligation to believe a big fat lie!
It is contrary to God's character for God to put any man under divine obligation to believe a lie - i.e. to believe that Christ is his Saviour when He had assuredly decreed that Christ is not his Saviour.
I do believe all God's children are under divine obligation to repent and believe in their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is their Lord and Saviour. Upon the basis of His life and death, they have been justified, regenerated and adopted. They are children first by God's free grace, then they are called to believe the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, Eph 1:13.
2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men?
Your question PRESUPPOSES that the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of Christ, and to all men. I question whether the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of Christ at all? I do believe the preaching of the gospel is the heralding and proclamation of the good news of salvation already accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ. There IS NOT an offer of anything to any one. The hearers are called to believe the good news... and tell you what... ONLY those that ARE SAVED by God - i.e. already justified, regenerated and adopted, with the indwelling Spirit of God working faith in them - will receive the gospel. Why? Because the gospel of salvation is ALREADY TRUE of them by God's free grace through the effectual call.
As a preacher, I have nothing to offer to sinners. I am not sent to offer anything. I am send to preach the gospel, to announce the glad tidings of salvation already accomplished and applied, and call the hearers to believe the gospel. I have good news of salvation to announce to my hearers. I call the hearers to believe the good news... ALL THE TIME conscious that only God's children (i.e. the elect that are already effectually called out of their state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation) among them are capable of believing the good news. All others will perceive the gospel as foolishness, and the preachers of the gospel as babbling fools.
And the gospel preachers who offer Christ to those dead in trespasses and sins are likened to sincere BUT foolish and deceived men who offer Big Macs to a dead men. To offer Christ to the dead is not only foolishness, as injuriously insulting to the dead.. To offer Christ to the children of God is presumptuous, and redundant. To proclaim the gospel and call the hearers to believe the good news is wise. Hold forth the good news of salvation and summon the hearers to believe it... and ONLY those who have eternal life among the hearers shall believe.
WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS - HAS - HAS ETERNAL LIFE - is a declarative statement of fact, and not a conditional statement of offer - i.e. the dead who believes will have life. Bread is for the nourishment of the living!!! Foolish preachers think bread is for the dead to eat, so that they may have life.
3. Can, or does, God ever see the elect as sinful?
Oh, yes! The elect are ALWAYS sinful in and of themselves. However they are perfect and sinless in Christ. There are God's elect that are not his children yet because they are not effectually called to grace and salvation yet, and there are God's elect who are already His children because they have been effectually called unto grace and salvation. There are God's children that have gone to glory.
All the elect of God ARE LEGALLY justified by the blood of Christ. Christ suffered and borne away all their sins. LEGALLY they are already justified, and are LEGALLY righteous. But they are still personally, and practically sinful. When they are VITALLY justified at effectual calling, and are VITALLY righteous, they are still practically and experientially sinful. The greatest saint would still cry out, "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death."
But OBJECTIVELY, God the Judge see His elect through the merit of Christ alone, and they are perfectly righteous and sinless in His eyes. Subjectively, God the Father deals with the sinfulness of His children... and whack them as they deserve.
4. Is evangelism needed, and if so, why?
Preaching of the gospel and the ministry of the word is very essential... BUT ONLY for the purpose it was divinely intended for, not what man imagined it for. It is as essential as the father going to the grocery stores to secure all those wholesome food (no junk food please... ) for nourishing the child that has been born. God's children - born by the free and sovereign grace of God, without any aid or cooperation or assistance from men - need to be nourished and nurtured while here waiting to enter into their eternal inheritance. Their eternal salvation is as secured as it could be by the free grace of God - they are justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt by the Spirit of God, as fit as could be for eternal glory. But God cares for the well being of His children here and now in this world. And the means appointed for that end is the preaching of the gospel and the ministry of the word. Evangelism is to gather God's children into NT churches... to be nourished and nurtured.
Sorry, if it is all just sand... no smooth mud around.
sing in the south seas.
======
Howdy SSS (South Sea Sing)
Good brother,sing: Sorry, if it is all just sand... no smooth mud around.
Do you have any "proof" texts that addresses your answers biblically? Or any section of Scripture that teaches these positions?
A forgiven sinner, B G
=======
Brainy Giant,
No proof texts. I told you that there is no smooth mud in the south seas.You are the teacher... you asked the questions. I answered yours questions the best I can. If you don't like my answers or want to marks them wrong, freely do so. You give the proof texts to show that they are wrong.
singing silly songs in the south seas.
=======
On Feb 14, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Brainy Giant wrote:
Salutations my 3S'ed brother,
Sing: “If you don't like my answers or want to mark them wrong, you give the proof texts to show that they are wrong.”
Sing, I will give, as best I can, the Scriptural basis for my answers as my current light allows.
1. Do all men have an obligation to believe in Christ, placed on them by God?
Yes all men have a duty to believe on Christ.
I John 3:22-23 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
In this section, John encourages the keeping of God's moral commandments. In other words, doing what has commanded all men to do. He sums up those commandments in one, "And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another..."
It is a moral commandment placed on all men to believe on the name of His Son.":
2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men?
Yes, it is.
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"
God's eternal decrees are secret, we cannot know the extent nor the objects of them before faith manifests them. We are here instructed that "all men" have had the grace of God manifested to them. Not every single person, but every class and tribe of men. We must then proclaim God's grace to all men.
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
In addition to this, we must be mindful of Jesus desires. Jesus desired the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they would not. This implies an offer that they refused. Jesus' desires are not His decrees.
3. Can, or does, God ever see the elect as sinful?
Yes, he does.
"All men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath: God is angry with the wicked every day." (Matthew Henry) Jesus makes it clear in John 3 that propitiation is only proper through conversion, or is only assured through faith. Before then God views them as children of wrath, as condemned.
4. Is evangelism needed, and if so, why?
Yes. It is commanded. Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
It is to be prayed for. Matthew 9:38 "Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest".
Good brother, the hour is late and I need to get to bed. This is not a full nor even proper answer to the questions, but it must do for tonight.
A forgiven sinner,
Brainy Giant
============
Brother Brainy,
Your question and answer
2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men? Yes, it is.
Your proof text:
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"
Yes, the gospel of salvation by God's free grace is to be proclaimed to all classes of people.
BUT where does it say about the freely offer Christ?
Where does it even hint about freely offer Christ to all men?
By the free grace of God, the elect are UNITED to Christ in the effectual call to grace and salvation - justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit. To offer Christ to such a person is REDUNDANT. Christ is ALREADY his by God's free grace. Your free offer comes a LITTLE TOOOOO LATE! Such a person need to hear the gospel of Christ proclaimed to him and called to repentance and faith - to believe the truth of his salvation by God's free grace through the righteousness of Christ alone.
Do your remember reading the popular and oft quoted passage - "contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" To whom was the faith delivered? The faith here refers to that body of gospel truths. Was the faith delivered to sinners dead in their sins and trespasses, or was it delivered to the saints? Who were able to receive the faith delivered by the apostles - those dead in sins and trespasses or the saints? And who are the saints BUT those whom God, by His effectual call, has separated from the state of sins and death into that state of righteousness and eternal life? To the saints, them that ARE SAVED, the faith speaks of the power of God unto salvation. To the perishing, the faith is a body of nonsense. 1Co 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
You further said: “God's eternal decrees are secret, we cannot know the extent nor the objects of them before faith manifests them. We are here instructed that "all men" have had the grace of God manifested to them. Not every single person, but every class and tribe of men. We must then proclaim God's grace to all men.”
Free offer is nonsense even though we cannot know the extent or the objects of them before faith manifest them. You said 'FAITH MANIFEST THEM...' Yes, they must have eternal life, i.e. already in UNION WITH CHRIST, if they possess faith to manifest their election unto salvation. We may not know who are the object of God's grace, but we know on the authority of Scriptures that a man must be an object of God's saving grace, i.e. effectually called to grace and salvation, already UNITED to Christ, before he has the grace of faith worked in him to manifest that divine work of grace.
Yes, proclaim the glorious grace of God in saving sinners through His Son Jesus Christ. But where is the freely offer of Christ. I think they meant very different thing. It is stupid to offer Christ to the spiritually dead... and it is redundant to offer Christ to those who already possess Christ through the gracious work of effectual calling to eternal salvation.
Imagine a man come along and offer your a million bucks if you believe! And I come along and inform you the good news that a million bucks have been deposited into your account. QUITE different story, are they not!
You quoted Matthew 23:37 and commented: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" In addition to this, we must be mindful of Jesus desires. Jesus desired the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they would not. This implies an offer that they refused. Jesus' desires are not His decrees.”
May I suggest that Jesus was censuring the wicked and blind religious leaders of Israel for hindering God's children (yes, they are God's children by God's free grace) from coming to Christ. Sinners dead in their sins need no hindering whatsoever from coming to Christ. They already hate Christ enough. However many God's children among the Jews did not follow Jesus Christ for fear of being abused and excommunicated by religious leaders.
Jesus DID NOT desire the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him. He declared that unless the Father effectually draws them, they would never come to Christ... because unless the Father draws them, they happily REMAIN in their state of sin and death. The chicks belong to the hen... they that Christ desired to gather to Himself outwardly and timely are hindered by the religious leaders of Israel.
Case dismissed. Student disagrees with teacher.
sing
===============
Brother Brawny Giant.
You asked and answered:
3. Can, or does, God ever see the elect as sinful? Yes, he does.
"All men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath: God is angry with the wicked every day." (Matthew Henry) Jesus makes it clear in John 3 that propitiation is only proper through conversion, or is only assured through faith. Before then God views them as children of wrath, as condemned.”
Propitiation is only proper through conversion???????
So, can I conclude - no conversion, no propitiation?
Propitiation is only assured through faith???????
So, can I conclude - no faith, no propitiation?
So, Christ's righteousness and blood was not sufficient and PROPER to secure the full and complete propitiation of God's just and holy wrath against His elect? Something must be added to it to make it effectual? So, Christ did NOT finished the work redeeming His people? That's complete denial of free grace!
Now, you do speak more like a particular arminian!!! So the decisive factor is the act of man, isn't it?
Why can't God sees the elect as perfectly righteous in the LEGAL OBJECTIVE sense for Christ sake, and at the same time also see them as sinful in and of themselves???
NO, the elect in Christ ARE ALREADY LEGALLY JUSTIFIED. Their sins - past, present and future - were already imputed to Christ when Christ died on the cross. If that didn't take place, than I fear one has to deal with his own sins. Christ is not going to die a second time to suffer for those sins not imputed to him the first time!!!
To say that God views them as LEGALLY CONDEMNED is bearing false witness against God. It is denying that God has accepted the sacrifice of Christ for their legal justification - the removal of their legal condemnation in Adam.
The elect children are sinful, but NOT CONDEMNED. To say that God sees them as sinful, and to say that God sees them as legally condemned are very different thing!
puzzled, and flabbergasted,
sing
============
Brainy Brian,
You asked, answered and quoted:
1. Do all men have an obligation to believe in Christ, placed on them by God?
Yes all men have a duty to believe on Christ.
I John 3:22-23 "And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."
In this section, John encourages the keeping of God's moral commandments. In other words, doing what has commanded all men to do. He sums up those commandments in one, "And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another..."
Your question is, 'DO ALL MEN...'
There are million worlds of difference between your 'ALL MEN' and John's 'WE'.
1 John 3:22-23 addresses 'WE... WE... WE... WE... WE...' Just who do you think apostle John is addressing? Just who is John encouraging the keeping of God's moral commandments? All men or God's beloved children?
Your 'in other words' is certainly MOST OTHER WORLDLY than what the passage is saying.
sing
=============
Howdy Sing,
BG: Your question and answer"
2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men? Yes, it is.
Your proof text: Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"
sing: Yes, the gospel of salvation by God's free grace is to be proclaimed to all classes of people. Where does it say about the freely offer Christ? Where does it say about freely offer Christ to all men?.
What does "gospel" mean Sing? It is "good news." How can the good news of
Christ dying for sinners be proclaimed to folks without an offer? What would be
good news about that? What is a free offer of Christ? "Come unto me all you
that are heavy laden." Isn't that an offer?
Is a gospel sermon, by your definition, a sermon that sends them to the
Father (to check their election) instead of the Son? Election is not the Gospel.
sing: Such a person need to hear the gospel of Christ proclaimed to him and called to repentance and faith - to believe the truth of his salvation by God's free grace.
Isn't a call to faith and repentance an offer?
BG further said:
God's eternal decrees are secret, we cannot know the extent nor the objects of them before faith manifests them. We are here instructed that "all men" have had the grace of God manifested to them. Not every single person, but every class and tribe of men. We must then proclaim God's grace to all men.
sing: It is stupid to offer Christ to the spiritually dead... and it is redundant to offer Christ to those who already possess Christ through the gracious work of effectual calling to eternal salvation.
Tell that to Jeremiah in the valley of dry bones.
Imagine a man come along and offer your a million bucks if you would believe! And I come along and inform you the good news that a million bucks have been deposited into your account. QUITE different story, are they not!
Both would require believing your report, would they not?
You quoted:
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" In addition to this, we must be mindful of Jesus desires. Jesus desired the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they would not.
This implies an offer that they refused. Jesus' desires are not His decrees.
Jesus DID NOT desire the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him. He
declared that unless the Father effectually draws them, they would never come to
Christ... because unless the Father draws them, they are in their state of sin
and death. The chicks belong to the hen... they that Christ desired to
gather to Himself outwardly and timely are hindered by the religious leaders of
Israel.
What? Jesus came to call the righteous to repentance. It is the healthy that
need a doctor?
A forgiven sinner,
Brainy Giant
=======
Brother Brainy,
See some comments below in your reply:
Brainy: What does "gospel" mean Sing? It is "good news." How can the
good news of Christ dying for sinners be proclaimed to folks without an offer?
What would be good news about that? What is a free offer of Christ? "Come unto me
all you that are heavy laden." Isn't that an offer?
Is a gospel sermon, by your definition, a sermon that sends them to the Father (to check their election) instead of the Son? Election is not the Gospel.
## The gospel is the good news of what God HAS DONE in Christ to save His people. It is NOT some news with the offer that God WILL DO something on the condition that man accept that offer. Preaching the gospel is the proclamation of the good news and calling the hearers to believe the gospel... and it is ONLY THOSE ALREADY IN UNION WITH CHRIST by the free grace [and not free offer!] of God in effectual calling to grace and salvation. These are ALREADY IN POSSESSION OF CHRIST. These are called to believe the gospel.
It is REDUNDANT to OFFER Christ to those already in possession of Christ by God's free grace. It is such a simple truth. Why is it so difficult to accept? You would offer Christ to those ALREADY in possession of Christ by God's free grace. Your sincere offer is far too late!
I have nothing to offer. I have a good news to tell the hearers, and urging them to believe the truth of what God has done in them... and those in whom this is true, i.e. God has done the work of grace, have the grace of faith to believe.
You asked: What is a free offer of Christ? You need to answer your own belief and your own question. I don't believe such idea and don't use such term.
Brainy: Isn't a call to faith and repentance an offer?
## If it is, then we speak different language. What do you offer when you call the hearers to repent and believe? Do you offer them Christ? Salvation? Heaven? Those who would accept your 'offer', ARE THEY NOT ALREADY IN POSSESSION of Christ, and salvation, and destined for heaven - ALL BY GOD'S FREE GRACE? Or do you hope the dead in sin will accept your Christ, or whatever you will offer them?
TO OFFER is to present or proffer (something, someone, oneself, etc) for acceptance or rejection. Beggars offer themselves to be accepted or rejected. Misguided and deluded preachers offer 'Christ' of their own imaginations to be accepted or rejected by sinners. They make Christ, the Lord of lords and King of kings the weak pathetic pleading beggar!
Christ sends His laborers to gather the lost sheep into the NT churches. He sends His preachers to bring those ALREADY effectually called to grace and salvation to believe the truth concerning their salvation by God's free grace.
Brainy: Tell that to Jeremiah in the valley of dry bones.
## Go and ask Ezekiel whether he offered anything to the dry bones!!!
Show me the slightest HINT of an offer of anything to anyone, and the slightest indication of the acceptance or rejection of an offer if there is one.
I think it is VERY PLAIN AND OBVIOUS that the passage is a plain declaration of what the LORD Himself will do to a people as dead and as helpless as the dead dry bones!
Please feel free and go and make all your sincere offers to them dry bones. Ezekiel CERTAINLY did not make any offer. People are not letting the Scriptures speak for itself. They are making the Scriptures to speak their own imagination.
sing: Imagine a man come along and offer your a million bucks if you believe! And I come along and inform you the good news that a million bucks have been deposited into your account. QUITE different story, are they not! Brainy: Both would require believing your report, would they not?
## YES, and yes, BUT and but you miss the whole point of the illustration.
The former speaks of an offer... a perversion of what the gospel preaching is all about, offering something to the hearers on the condition that they must believe it IN ORDER to make it true. It is not already true, but if they would believe it, it would then become true.
The latter speaks of the declaration of the good news - of what is already true - and calling such to believe what is already true.
They are a whole world of difference - to believe to make something to become true, and to believe something which is already true.
Brainy said:
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" In addition to this, we must be mindful of Jesus desires. Jesus desired the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they would not. This implies an offer that they refused. Jesus' desires are not His decrees.
sing replied:
Jesus DID NOT desire the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him. He declared that unless the Father effectually draws them, they would never come to Christ... because unless the Father draws them, they are in their state of sin and death. The chicks belong to the hen... they that Christ desired to gather to Himself outwardly and timely are hindered by the religious leaders of Israel.
Brainy asked: What? Jesus came to call the righteous to repentance. It is the healthy that need a doctor?
## May I ask: What is the offer? To whom was it tendered? Who rejected His offer?
Then, what is the opposite of the healthy - is it the spiritually dead or the spiritually sick? If spiritually dead, are such able to repent? If spiritually sick, such need conversion and repentance.
Who needs a doctor - is it the spiritually dead or the spiritually sick? Is a doctor to cure a sickness or to restore the spiritually dead to eternal life? Who are the righteous? How do they become righteous - by their believing?
NOTHING, absolutely nothing can hinder Christ from effectually calling all His redeemed to grace and salvation in the eternal sense. Many things can hinder God's children from believing the gospel truth delivered by Jesus and His servants - from receiving the medicine to cure the various diseases. Nothing can prevent the elect from being GIVEN eternal life and salvation by the Triune God.
just my thoughts,
sing
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