Hey,
gospel regenerationists, have you read this?
Romans
1
5 By whom we have received grace and
apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10 Making request, if by any means now at length
I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you...
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to
preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Ro
15:20 "Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named,
lest I should build upon another man’s foundation.
-
Paul has a great urgency to preach the gospel to all that be in Rome, i.e. them
that are "the called of Jesus Christ... beloved of God... called to be
saints."
-
YES, yes, yes, all that be in Rome that are ALREADY "the called of Jesus
Christ... beloved of God... called to be saints."
- Has
the gospel been preached in Rome before? If someone has, then isn't Paul
misguided or being presumptuous? - If they haven't, then how are they ALREADY
"the called of Jesus Christ... beloved of God... called to be
saints"?
Go figure a bit! Isn't gospel regeneration a mere fiction and hallucination of many preachers?
================
GPeter
The
residents of Rome already had the Gospel well preached to them and the identity
and nature of the Church was known around the world by the time Paul wrote
'Romans'. Paul was certainly aware and well informed about the Church in Rome
which was already established and meeting in a number of venues.
R
1:8 'your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world'
R
16:14-15- Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the
brethren which are with them. Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his
sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
Sing F Lau
Welcome
GPeter.
You
need to demonstrate how the verses validate your idea! Just quoting them
doesn't do so... Calling a wombat a kangaroo doesn't turn a wombat into one!
<LOL>
You
can choose that idea, which necessarily implies that Paul was presumptuous and
misguided in his sense of great urgency to get the gospel to those who have
already heard and believed the gospel.
Why
did he expand great effort in declaring the gospel to them in black and white
in the epistle if they had already heard and known the gospel?
You
would make Apostle Paul to appear a liar and a hypocrite. He said, "Ro
15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named,
lest I should build upon another man’s foundation." You are accusing Paul
of building on someone else foundation.
Those
who won't let Paul's own testimony stand, I take them as devoid of integrity!
GPeter
My
Friend Sing F Lau ...
Paul
specifically says that the gospel had been preached in Rome. It is Paul who is
calling the 'Kangaroo'!
Here
are 5 good reasons to believe the Church was established in Rome before Paul
wrote Romans over thirty years after the church in Jerusalem was born.
1.
Romans 1:8 'their faith was spoken of throughout the world' the Amplified says,
'[the report of] your faith is made known to all the world and is [a]commended
everywhere.' That means there were reports coming out of Rome, by reliable
sources, that there were Christians and Christian faith in Rome, faith that was
of some renown.
2.
Every Bible commentator I have read, and that's a few, says that the church was
established in Rome before Paul sent the Book of Romans to them. If you read in
the preamble to Romans in your Bible it probably says the same thing.
3.
In Romans 16 - Paul send greetings to Christians Paul knew, or knew of, in two
different locations in Rome, 'the saints which are with them, and 'the brethren
which are with them': this would seem to indicate that there were at least two
congregations that Paul knew of in Rome.
4.
Considering that Rome was the centre of the Empire and that there were people
present in Jerusalem from all over the Roman Empire at Pentecost, many presume
that converts from the early days of the Church in Jerusalem would hve returned
to Rome.
5. Given
that most put the writing of Romans by Paul, probably while he was in Corinth
around 25 years after Pentecost, it would not be hard to imagine converts
returning to Rome in the first three decades of the Church.
6.
Perhaps Paul learned of the Church in Rome from Priscilla and Aquila, who had
been expelled from Rome over 15 years earlier.
7. Paul says that the reason he hasn't yet gone to Rome is because the Gospel had already been preached there (!!!) Rom 15:22 and he had been called to the unreached, BUT since all the regions in his locality had now heard the gospel preached in them, he now felt liberated to visit Rome on the way to other unreached regions. Paul planned to continue his call to unreached areas BUT to stop by in Rome to visit the church that was already meeting there, in the houses of the Christians that he named.
Romans 15
Thus,
my ambition has been to preach the Gospel, not where Christ's name has already
been known, lest I build on another man's foundation. This is the reason why I
have so frequently been hindered from coming to visit you. (BECAUSE THE GOSPEL
HAD ALREADY BEEN MADE KNOWN THERE)
23 But
now since I have no further opportunity for work in these regions, and since I
have longed for [b]enough years to come to you, 24 I hope to see you in passing
....
Sing
F Lau
GPeter
said, "Paul specifically says that the gospel had been preached in
Rome."
Paul
himself said this:
"9
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son,
that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10
Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey
by the will of God to come unto you.
15
So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at
Rome also.
Ro
15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named,
lest I should build upon another man’s foundation.
So,
whose testimony should I believe? Grant's or Paul?
Of course,
I read in Rom 1:1
"To
the church in Rome that meets in Grant's house..." <LOL>
GPeter
Why
leave out Romans 1:8?
Why
leave out that Paul names two congregations in Romans 15?
Paul never said the Gospel had not been preached in Rome, in fact, he said others had laboured there which is why he was reluctant to go there.
Please,
believe Paul's specific references to the fact that others had laboured in Rome
and that there were already Christian house churches there.
Instead, you are reinventing church history so that it will suit your doctrine. Please name one church historian who does NOT believe that the gospel had reached Rome before Paul wrote Romans. PLEASE CITE ONE
GPeter
Read
the verses after Romans 15:20- why do you refuse to interpret verses in their
context?
Sing
F Lau
I
have not even begun disposing of your idea yet, and you are already ranting and
foaming away with so irrelevant comments. What for, GPeter? I am not
overwhelmed by numbers. I can be convinced by reasons and common sense.
There
are perfect explanations for each of the 7 points you raised.
GPeter
Romans
16-
Paul
names at least 26 Christians that he knows personally in the church in Rome.
-5 Say
hello to Priscilla and Aquila, who have worked hand in hand with me in serving
Jesus. They once put their lives on the line for me. And I'm not the only one
grateful to them. All the non-Jewish gatherings of believers also owe them
plenty, to say nothing of the church that meets in their house.
Hello
to my dear friend Epenetus. He was the very first follower of Jesus in the
province of Asia.
6 Hello
to Mary. What a worker she has turned out to be!
7 Hello
to my cousins Andronicus and Junias. We once shared a jail cell. They were
believers in Christ before I was. Both of them are outstanding leaders.
8 Hello
to Ampliatus, my good friend in the family of God.
9 Hello
to Urbanus, our companion in Christ's work, and my good friend Stachys.
10 Hello
to Apelles, a tried-and-true veteran in following Christ. Hello to the family
of Aristobulus.
11 Hello
to my cousin Herodion. Hello
to those who belong to the Lord from the family of Narcissus.
12 Hello
to Tryphena and Tryphosa—such diligent women in serving the Master. Hello
to Persis, a dear friend and hard worker in Christ.
13 Hello
to Rufus—a good choice by the Master!—and his mother. She has also been a dear
mother to me.
14 Hello
to Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and also to all of their
families.
15 Hello
to Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas— and all the followers
of Jesus who live with them.
GPeter
@
Matthew, we don't know who first preached the Gospel in Rome- we only know that
the Church met in a few different locations, that it's faith was known around
the world, that some had been dispersed (Acts 18 from memory) and that Paul
knew many of them personally.
(Matthew made some comments, and later deleted them.)
Sing
F Lau
And
how does Rom 16 prove that the gospel had been preached in Rome? All that
proves is that there were those whom Paul was acquainted with - most probably
during his various missionary journeys - Paul knew were in Rome.
If
you can't even distinguish the two, I suggest you just hold your peace! I am
tired of your ranting here!
If
you want to discuss and study... it should be this way... state your point...
wait for it to be answered... don't just go spewing away.
GPeter
Romans
16 proves there was an active church in Rome, one would assume the gospel had to
be preached there for there to be an active church- unless they just had BBQ's
on Sunday with no preaching?
Sing
F Lau
1.
Rom 1:8 'their faith was spoken of throughout the world'
=====
How
does this prove that the gospel had been preached in Rome, that these people
have heard the gospel, and that there was a church in Rome???????
Cornelius' faith in God was quite well known before he heard the gospel from Peter! The Ethiopian's faith in God is well known... he travelled all the way to Jerusalem to worship God before he heard the gospel from Philip. (Of course some deluded preachers will insist that they were still unregenerated until they hear the gospel!)
GPeter
Except
that Paul identified them as Christians
Sing
F Lau
2.
Every Bible commentator I have read, and that's a few, says that the church was
established in Rome before Paul sent the Book of Romans to them. If you read in
the preamble to Romans in your Bible it probably says the same thing.
=====
You
can stick to Bible commentators. I will just stick to Paul's own testimony.
Yes,
Apostle Paul did say, "To the church in Rome that meets in Grant's
house...'
The
Bible I read has no preamble of human ideas!
I suggest that too many men take Apostle Paul as a presumptuous fool for saying, "So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also" if the gospel church is already established in Rome!
GPeter
Blessings
to you, my brother and friend in Christ.
Sing
F Lau
3.
In Romans 16 - Paul send greetings to Christians Paul knew, or knew of, in two
different locations in Rome, 'the saints which are with them, and 'the brethren
which are with them': this would seem to indicate that there were at least two
congregations that Paul knew of in Rome.
=======
This
is true... Paul sends greetings to these people whom he is acquainted with,
most probably during his missionary journeys. But these are different from the
main recipients of the letter that NEEDED to hear the gospel. Paul even
mentions a little church that meet in the house Aquila and Priscilla.
Rom
1:
5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith
among all nations, for his name:
6
Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Paul's ministry is to bring the called of Jesus Christ in Rome UNTO OBEDIENCE to the faith. This explains why Paul has that urgency to preach the gospel to those in Rome... to bring the called of Jesus Christ unto OBEDIENCE to the faith of Jesus Christ. This shows that the called of Jesus Christ (i.e already regenerated) needs to be brought unto the obedience to the faith of Jesus Christ.
Rom
16 is a wise way of telling the Romans mentioned in Rom 1 that there are
already some believers in Rome...
Sing
F Lau
4.
Considering that Rome was the center of the Empire and that there were people
present in Jerusalem from all over the Romans Empire at Pentecost, many presume
that converts from the early days of the Church in Jerusalem would have
returned to Rome.
=======
This
is a true observation. Some converts on the day of Pentecost came from Rome. Paul
came to know some of them through words of mouth... e.g. from Aquila and
Priscilla.
However
it doesn't prove that the gospel has been preached in Rome, and that those to
whom Paul felt the great urgency and indebtedness to preach the gospel have
heard it.
Whatever
one may wish to think, don't make Paul to appear as a presumptuous fool!
Sing
F Lau
Points
5 and 6: answered in point 4.
Sing
F Lau
7.
Paul says that the reason he hasn't yet gone to Rome is because the Gospel had
already been preached there (!!!) Rom 15:22 and he had been called to the
unreached, BUT since all the regions in his locality had now heard the gospel
preached in them, he now felt liberated to visit Rome on the way to other
unreached regions. Paul planned to continue his call to unreached areas BUT to
stop by in Rome to visit the church that was already meeting there- in the
houses of the Christians that he named.
=======
"...
because the Gospel had already been preached there"?
O, what a joke!!! There couldn't be a more mindless reason!
That's
what you think. Let's listen to Paul.
Paul
tells us why he hasn't come to Rome yet:
9
For God is my witness... Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that
oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might
have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
"...
BUT WAS LET HITHERTO..." Do you know what that means?
How
can you imagine such a reason? If the gospel had been preached there, wouldn't
Paul be making himself a big presumptuous plain fool for expressing the great
urgency and indebtedness of preaching the gospel to them?
If you say that I already have some kangaroos in my backyard, you would most certainly come across to me as a foolish mate if you still express great urgency and indebtedness in rushing to bring me a kangaroo by Qantas!!! <LOL>
Sing
F Lau
Romans
16 proves there was an active church in Rome, one would assume the gospel had
to be preached there for there to be an active church- unless they just had
BBQ's on Sunday with no preaching?
=======
Yes,
there is a church that meets in the house of Aquila and Priscilla. is that
church in Rome itself? Even if in Rome, Apostle Paul DID NOT address the
epistle to them. He addressed to those in Rome that are in urgency need of
hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Your
reasoning is faulty: "one would assume the gospel had to be preached there
for there to be an active church."
The simple fact is this: the little church gathered in Aquila's home is made up of people who have heard the gospel elsewhere and they have moved there, some of them probably even from Paul's ministry during his missionary journey!
GPeter
Paul's
testimony is that the Gospel had been preached in Rome, which is why he was
initially reluctant to go there. Read Chapter 15, all of it, carefully.
What
kept Paul from visiting Rome was that THE GOSPEL HAD ALREADY BEEN PREACHED THERE!
NIV-
It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known,
so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. ... This is why I
have often been hindered from coming to you ...
GNV
- My ambition has always been to proclaim the Good News in places where Christ
has not been heard of... And so I have been prevented many times from coming to
you.
NCV
I do not want to build on the work someone else has already started. ...This is
the reason I was stopped many times from coming to you
KJV ... have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation... For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.
Sing
F Lau
"Paul's
testimony is that the Gospel had been preached in Rome,"
======
That's
just your imagination.
Paul
didn't say that.
If
the gospel has been preached in Rome, Paul would not be going there! Why?
Otherwise he would be building on another man's foundation!
But
he is going to Rome! Why? Because he is going to preach where Christ has not
been named! You get the whole thing upside down!!!
GPeter
Sorry,
our understanding of English must be very very different. I, along with every
Bible commentator I can find, read Romans 15 as saying:
Paul
was reluctant to go to Rome because the Gospel had already been preached there
and he was called to where the gospel had not be preached, However, because the
gospel had been preached in every district where Paul was, he would take the
opportunity to visit Rome on the way to new missionary fields.
,...
how I read it could be wrong but it is the generally accepted interpretation of
that passage.
Sing
F Lau
It
is not our understanding of English... it is our understanding of the doctrine
of salvation... you are gospel regeneration to the core... which makes it a
necessity that the preaching of the gospel precedes salvation.
You are resorting to Bible commentators. I am also able to quote commentators who agree with my understanding. BUT that's child play! So, you follow your Bible commentators, I will simply take Paul at his word, rightly understood in context.
Sing
F Lau
Paul
all along expressed great desire and eagerness and urgency to go to Rome... it
is your idea that he is reluctant to go to Rome. You have turned the whole
account upside down.
Instead
of saying that by God's providence, all the previous hindrances have been
removed to enable him to go to Rome, you greatly insult Paul by saying that he
went to Rome because he has no other place to labor and thus RELUCTANTLY
himself to go to Rome, and in the process compromises his life-long policy and
conviction of not building on another's man foundation!
O, what a despicable insult to Apostle Paul!
And
the reason he was reluctant to go there, according to your fiction, is that
the gospel has been preached in Rome. That assumption is contrary to everything
expressed by Paul!
O, how a plain passage could be so perverted to read the direct opposite... it is a marvel!
