Rightly
dividing the truth on regeneration and conversion is necessary to understand
the popular religious jargon "salvation by grace alone." Vastly
different things are meant by that cliché.
Many,
when they see the distinctions made in the chart below, repudiate the truth on
regeneration and conversion rightly divided.
https://letgodbetrue.com/sermons/index/year-2006/regeneration-conversion-compared/
------------
Yanadi
Tan
If
some human are regenerated apart from hearing the Gospel, can one say that all
human are totally depraved then, Pr Sing F Lau?
(hoping for a friendly discussion, listening ears here)
Just FYI, I don't fully embrace 1689 confession. at this present moment, I ain't a 1689 federalist.
Sing
Thanks.
We will leave that historical document aside.
What
is a 1689 federalist? Thanks.
Yanadi
Tan
this
helps, I think:
http://www.1689federalism.com/.../Comparison_20thRB...
www.1689federalism.com
I
notice you admire John Gill and AW Pink (whom I personally categorize as
HyperC), correct me if I'm wrong,
John
Gill falls under the right hand side circle based on 1689 Federalist's
definition.
Benjamin Keach is considered to be a 1689 Federalist by them.
https://youtu.be/ZvPoAnMGuGE
1689 Federalism compared to 20th Century Reformed Baptists
Sing
F Lau
Three
men standing side by side; the man in the centre call the shorter man on his
left an Arminian, and the much taller man on his right a hyper-calvinist.
What
if I remind you of the historical fact that John Gill was the epitome of
Calvinism of his days? The degenerated men who came after call him name!
Explain in a few sentences what a 1689 federalist is. Thanks.
Yanadi
Tan
I
try to avoid calling names.
we
can agree to disagree about John Gill, doesn't matter to me really.
I
can't explain 1689 federalism as I ain't one.
This
may help:
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/.../non-dispensational.../
the one on top right hand side corner is 1689 Federalism.
Sing
F Lau
1.
Of all that are regenerated, they are ALL, without exception, either
regenerated apart from hearing the gospel, or conditioned upon hearing the
gospel.
Source
of this simple and plain statement:
John
3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every
one that is born of the Spirit."
"so
is EVERYONE that is born of the Spirit."
Only
two choices, so it is easy. Choose one, and live with the necessary
implications of that choice.
The
"exception" idea is concocted by sincere folks who won't receive the
plain statement.
2.
Can one say that all human are totally depraved?
This
is the first time I have ever heard the two issues connected by "If...
then."? Please show how are they related by your "if... then..."
logic.
Total depravity is a biblical doctrine stating the native state of the fallen race of Adam.
Sing
F Lau
You
aren't suppose to throw around terms that you can't explain. It doesn't help in
discussion.
Yanadi
Tan
sure,
just sharing.
I'll
stop sharing the terms if they don't help.
appreciate
the input.
Sing
F Lau
You
don't know what a 1689 federalist is but you know you are not a 1689
federalist. Interesting.
Yanadi
Tan
Thank
you for the sarcasm.
That's
very friendly of you to say that.
Just
to share with you, I know why I am not one, but I don't have enough knowledge
to share at an acceptable intellectual level to you.
Hope
this helps.
Sing
F Lau
It
helps.
Sing
F Lau
Yanadi: "Interesting,
so in your opinion there are Spirit-regenerated non-Christians out there? and
these non-Christians are not totally depraved?
Do
I understand you correctly? I don't want to misunderstand your view.
==========
Nice
rhetorical questions, except misguided.
Yes,
you do understand me correctly.
Let
me paint a simple picture of an elect in stages in time.
1.
He is conceived and born in sin, and grows up in sin.
He
is in the state of total depravity.
2.
At some point between his conception and death, he is freely and sovereignly
regenerated by the Spirit of God based solely upon the works and merits of
Christ, without and apart from any gospel preaching. He is now a CHILD of God,
perfectly fitted for eternal glory.
-
Once regenerated, he is NO LONGER totally depraved; he has been quickened,
indwelt by the Holy Spirit, ENABLED and made capable of believing spiritual
truth. Some of God's children are not converted yet. They are God's children,
but not Christian yet.
-
ONLY God's children can be converted to Christ through the gospel ministry.
Words have meaning, so use them correctly.
-
These are your " Spirit-regenerated non-Christians out there." But
your gospel-regeneration (twin idea) has blinded you to this plain truth in the
Scriptures. Think Cornelius, think Lydia, think devout Jews who came for the
Pentecost, and were CONVERTED through Peter's preaching... think Abraham in Gen
12-14!
3.
At some point between his regeneration and physical death, he may be called out
by the gospel ministry to faith and repentance in Christ. When he repent and
believe, (and is baptized) on the Lord Jesus Christ, he becomes a CHRISTIAN.
-
As a Christian, he is now a disciple; he can be a good or poor disciple; a
faithful or unfaithful disciple; a fruitful or a barren disciple.
4.
His appointed death, body to dust, spirit received into the intermediate state.
5.
His appointed resurrection to eternal glory.
If
you have more questions, ask.
Yanadi
Tan
I
am not going to continue this discussion as you start to name-call.
But
I appreciate this discussion.
I
learned something today.
Have
a blessed day, Pr.
Sing
F Lau
If
describing your position as gospel-regeneration is name-calling, then I have.
My position is immediate-regeneration. You can describe my position as such. I
won't whine that you are name-calling. 😉
Robert
Cook Sr.
Yanadi, For me the strongest verse for the necessity of immediate Holy
Spirit regeneration is 1 Corinthians 2:14, and its sister verse Romans 3:11. If
a man is not born of the Spirit he can not hear or believe the Gospel. Throw
away confessions and look at Scripture.
Robert
Cook Sr.
"the
flesh gets some credit" but not before God! 🙂 great post thanks I am
sharing.
Sing
F Lau
Rom
4:16 "Therefore
it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure
to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which
is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all..."
What
is said of justification by the faith OF Christ, the exact same may be said of
immediate/direct regeneration:
-
that it might be by grace (without human activities like preaching)
-
to the end that the promise might be sure TO ALL THE SEED.
If
regeneration is conditioned on the preaching (and of necessity, the hearing) of
the gospel, then it is no longer by grace but conditioned upon some human
activities; then the promise CANNOT be sure to all the elect. There are elect
who have no ability to hear/comprehend the gospel, and there are others who
have no opportunity to hear the same.
Dave
Amora
I
love this website.
