Flee from the wrath to come...

"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you
to flee from the wrath to come?" Mt 3:7

 

February 9, 2019  

"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" Mt 3:7

Who will flee from what wrath to come, and has that wrath come to pass?

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology; it is essential to distinguish the eternal salvation that is entirely monergistic (it is exclusively by the free and sovereign activities of the Triune God alone and without the activities of man at all; preaching, hearing, and believing are all excluded) and the temporal salvation that is synergistic (it involves the activities of the redeemed in obedience to the will of the Father for them.)

The former was purposed by God, accomplished and secured by Christ, and is freely and sovereignly applied to each elect while still in his native state of sin and death; it is bestowed freely to one still dead in trespasses and sins.

The latter has to be worked out by the redeemed with fear and trembling; they having been bestowed with eternal salvation, made perfectly fitted for eternal glory are summoned to work out their own temporal salvation. This salvation requires the active participation of the redeemed; it is conditioned upon their obedience to the will of the Father for them.

The failure to make this biblical distinction between the monergistic eternal salvation by the Triune and the synergistic temporal through the obedience of the redeemed has spawned so much confusion.

(The meme above has been loved and liked 43 times and shared 29 times when I took the screenshot. Nearly all will take the passage as dealing with eternal salvation.)

The one comment was astute; it reads "70Ad"; he understands; John was warning his fellow Jews of the impending destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD; it is temporal destruction they can flee to save themselves from, to save themselves from being slaughtered and roasted like swine by the Roman armies (Luke 21:20). But very many believe the wrath spoken of refers to the lake of fire. Who can flee from that wrath?

Eternal wrath in the lake of fire is averted ONLY by the work of Jesus Christ ALONE that secured the eternal salvation; this eternal salvation is freely bestowed to each elect personally while still dead in trespasses and sins.

UNWILLINGNESS and REFUSAL to acknowledge the biblical distinction between monergistic eternal salvation and synergistic temporal salvation has confused and puzzled even the wise and erudite folks.

"... and their number so certain and definite..."

"... and their number so certain and definite, 
that it cannot be either increased or diminished."   
(1689.3.3-4)

February 8, 2021  ·

The Old School Baptists summarized their beliefs thus:

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice."

"These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished."   (1689.3.3-4)

======

Are these statements by sick hyper-Calvinists?

IF "their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished", then will all the evangelistic endeavours, and missionary zeal increase that number by just one, or will all the inactivity diminish that number by one?

If yes, tell us how?
If not, tell us why?
If not, then tell us why the gospel ministry of the NT is of great importance; tell us its true function.

Marty-Sandy Smith
To that large, definite number of humans redeemed by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ (after they have been given divine life by the irresistible work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration), the gospel is nourishment and light. Nourishment is important for a living person in hunger. Light is important for a living person in darkness. They are even important enough to risk earthly life.

Neither nourishment nor light is important (or life-giving) for a dead person. Even so, the gospel is not appreciated by, and does not give life to, those who are dead in trespasses and sins.

Greg Hood
2 Timothy 3:16-17 King James Version
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The gospel is also a comfort for The Lord's elect and it is food for their souls, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled

Jesus charge to Peter was, feed my lambs, feed my sheep

Sing F Lau
Greg Hood Yes, feed them, not make them. Feeding relates to the living and not bringing the dead to life.

Greg Hood
Sing F Lau amen brother, praise to The Lord

Victorio Moises
Amen.

Julie
Angel's predestined? I have been a PB over 40 years, but never heard that one. I really appreciate hearing the gospel preached more than I can say. But, I recognize that, though it has saved me from many an anguish and wrong turning and sinning in this world, it was never designed to replace Jesus work on the cross. Jesus alone saved my soul. He does not put a heavy burden on imperfect humans to save their own soul or anyone else's, else his death on our behalf would be in vain and He being God knew for whom He died and was victorious. The preachers' joy and responsibility is to magnify Him and His completed work and to encourage those whom Christ regenerates to follow Him.

Patricia
Well said, Sister Julie

Right translation matters supremely for sound theology!

Right translation matters supremely
for sound theology!

February 7, 2012  ·

Right translation matters supremely for sound theology!

One reads like this
Ro 4:3 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him FOR righteousness." Similarly for verses 5,9, and 22.

Another reads like this:
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him AS righteousness." Similarly for verses 5,9, and 22.

Let me state something obvious - the pronoun 'it' refers to Abraham's faith. So many teachers of God's word are shameless for teaching that 'it' refers to righteousness. There is no accounting of the righteousness of Christ to Abraham in this passage, but so many 'great' teachers keep hallucinating that! Please get this simple fact into your head.

And where there is no accounting of righteousness, there is no justification. PERIOD. Accounting of righteousness to the condemned is at the heart of justification of the condemned by God the Judge. So many, the reformed as well as the non-reformed are fixated on the idea that Abraham was justified by God at this point! Shame!

With that obvious introduction (to spare misguided brethren from raving nonsense here), let me ask 3 questions:

What does 'it was counted unto him FOR righteousness' mean?

What does 'it was counted unto him AS righteousness' mean?

What is the difference?

I suggest that there is a very horrible corruption and degradation of the truth of the gospel!

As usual, if you can keep to the subject, comment; If you can't, abstain, please.

Johnny Davis
Indeed. Translation is perhaps as important as the original text, none of which we have, only copies of copies of copies. Had the word "for" been mistranslated "as" and the meaning would be that Abraham's belief resulted in the righteousness of the man. Yet, the proper doctrine, as you pointed out, is that belief allows God to impart His righteousness, with nothing to do actually with the individual's efforts.

Sing F Lau
Johnny, I have REPUDIATED the doctrine that "belief allows God to impart His righteousness" as the doctrine of the devil!

How could you reconcile "belief allows God to impart His righteousness" and "nothing to do with the individual's efforts' and the plain and simple fact that believing is work?

John 6:28 declares that believing is a work God requires of His children!!!
OK, I have a high math class to take care of.
Write sensible things, please.

Chase Harrison
I believe there is a BIG difference between the actual imparting of righteousness by God in regeneration and the "counting" of righteousness when we believe. As always, let's consider what all the Scriptures say on the subject and let Scripture help to interpret Scripture:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was COUNTED unto him for righteousness." - Rom 4:3

"....for we say that faith was RECKONED to Abraham for righteousness." - Rom 4:9

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was ACCOUNTED to him for righteousness." - Gal 3:6

"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was IMPUTED unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." - Jam 2:23

Ok, we have four Scriptures that teach the same or similar principle. We must try to rightly divide them so they all harmonize, and we should piece them all together so that we come to a solid and consistent Biblical conclusion regarding the important and precise meaning of this important doctrinal principle.

The four keywords used in the four Scriptures above are:

COUNTED, RECKONED, ACCOUNTED, and IMPUTED

All of these have very similar and synonymous meanings. Actually, although they are four different English words, in the KJT all four of these words come from the exact same Greek word: G3049 - logizomai

The basic definition of this Greek word is:
- to take into account; to make an account of
- to consider, take into account, weigh

But, one doesn't have to know a lot about Greek or speak Greek to understand what this word means. Just look at the first three letters of the word. L-O-G.

What is a log? It is best compared to an inventory sheet or a balance sheet. Consider your checking account and your chequebook. The checking account is where your money is actually kept and stored. The log in your chequebook is where you log your transactions and try to keep your account balanced for your own records and information. Now, let me ask a question. If I wrote a $1,000,000 deposit into the log of my chequebook, would that put any money into the actual account? Absolutely not! I WISH it worked like that! Hahaha. 🙂 The log should reflect what is in the account at all times, BUT writing something in the log does NOT create any money in the account. Similarly, when Abraham BELIEVED God, it did not create righteousness in him nor make him righteous, but it showed that he was already righteous and righteousness was LOGGED to his account.

Another example. The definition of this word could also be described as: "to take an inventory". Since I currently work in the grocery business, I will use examples and analogies that I am familiar with. Consider the inventory of a grocery store. At the end of each fiscal quarter when we take the closing inventories of our stores, we go in and COUNT each item and LOG the results for later calculations and reports. Now, when we counted the inventory, did that create or put actual inventory in the store? Absolutely not! Obviously, the inventory was already there, and we just count it and log it so that we have a more exact and precise knowledge of our inventory. Taking inventory does not create or make any inventory! Similarly, when Abraham believed God, it did NOT create righteousness in him nor make him righteous. But by believing, it was inventoried to him that he was already righteous and counted to him as such. Spiritual belief does not make us righteous. It shows that we are already righteous and it is logged to our account as such!

Sorry for the length, but this is a very important doctrinal principle and I think deserves a thorough explanation and understanding.

Johnny Davis
So goes communication, which may be rambling to some, but prayerfully considered truth from scripture. Even in the comment above, where my intent was to agree with you, that words mean everything, the term "for" does not ALLOW GOD TO DO ANYTHING. God can do anything he pleases. He can bestow mercy on whom He has mercy. He can forgive (perhaps a better word than forgive, is "never know" the sins, HOWEVER, he pleases to do that, whether by human logic with an elaborate understanding of the exact depth of accurate doctrine or theology, whatever man-made way to express it, through perfect language or not. Man has nothing to do with it. So, I don't know any other way to say this, by quoting scripture or not quoting scripture (after all, we all know the scriptures, I suspect), when man believes God, whatever happens good, will happen. If one wishes to call "belief" a "work," that is fine with me. Yet, work, in the English language, implies a payoff, an atta-boy, a reward, a paycheck, SOMETHING in return. Such is not necessary, actually not possible, with God. His grace, mercy, and forgiveness is free without effort on the part of man. I do not know how to say it any more sensible than this: I agree with you, even though I suspect, you think I do not.

Sing F Lau
Chase Chase Harrison, you should get a DD for that!

"There is a BIG difference between
- the actual imparting of righteousness by God in regeneration and
- the counting OF FAITH FOR righteousness when we believe."

That would summarize the subject at hand better.

Imparting righteousness at regeneration is distinct and different from imputing righteousness at the death and resurrection of Christ But many have no clue about this distinction at all... so all are muddled with their understanding of justification.

Many do care not for precision... and remain muddled.

Paul's command to rightly divide the word of truth is a trifle to them.

So, what does 'counting faith to Abraham for righteousness' mean?

Chase Harrison
A justified mind and conscience. A mind and conscience that is strong in faith and fully persuaded and not wavering!:

"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." - Rom 4:20-22

And then Paul goes on to tie the example of Abraham DIRECTLY to us! And I love that he does so!:

"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;" - Rom 4:23-24

The effect of "counting faith to Abraham for righteousness" or "justification by faith" is a justified mind and conscience that is strong in the Lord and fully persuaded of His promises and abilities. It is a believing and fruitful child of God that is pleasing to God and called the Friend of God (James 2:23)! What a BLESSED state it is to be in when one is justified by faith! It changes your life, your perspective on life, and your walk in this life. A walk that is pleasing to God and brings glory to His name!

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis, why the term 'for' does not allow God to do anything? God doing the accounting of faith to Abraham is a fixed fact. Now you are saying the exact opposite!!!

It is so hard to understand you!

It is not what one wishes. It is studying what the Scriptures DOES say, and believing it. That's the bottom line... some loose ideas about what the Scriptures say is the fertile ground for so many heresies.

Johnny Davis
Agreed. Heresies may come to exist, through well-meaning and non-sinister intent, simply by misunderstanding the translation, speech, text, or anything.

Sing F Lau
A feeble translation of the Chinese words in the picture above:

The Art of Speaking
In matters of urgency, speak slowly,
In matters of importance, speak clearly,
In matters of no account, speak jovially
In matters unconvinced, speak prudently,
In matters of rumours, shut your mouth,
In matters you can't fulfil, promise not,
In matters that hurt, do not speak,
In matters of sadness, speak to relevant persons,
In matters of joy, speak at the right circumstances
In matters of sadness, speak not to everyone you meet,
In matters of others, speak carefully,
In matters of self, listen to what others say,
In matters of our elders, listen more and speak less,
In matters of marriage, confer sweetly, and
In matters of children, exhort and admonish.

Johnny Davis
Who can control the tongue? The Eastern saying expounds on the scripture and presents the truth. 

"How then shall they call on him..."

 

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?..." 

WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE READ THIS PASSAGE AND MAKE IT TO TEACH THE LIE THAT THE GOSPEL MINISTRY IS THE MEANS GOD USES FOR REGENERATION? PLEASE EXPLAIN!
-----------

Sing F Lau

Please note a few things:

Paul DID ask, "How then shall they call on him...?"

Paul DIDN'T ask, "How are they to BE REGENERATED... without calling on Him' DID he? It seems that many insist on reading that idea into Paul's question.

Paul DID ask, "How shall they believe in Him...?"

Paul DIDN'T ask, "How shall they BE REGENERATED... without believing in Him" DID he? It seems that many insist on reading that idea into Paul's question.

Paul DID ask, "How shall they hear without a preacher?"

Paul DIDN'T ask, "How shall they BE REGENERATED without a preacher" DID he? It seems that very many PREACHERS insist on reading that idea into Paul's question.

Concerning Paul's rhetorical questions:
- "How then shall they CALL on him?,"
- "How shall they BELIEVE in Him?," and
- "How shall they HEAR without the preacher?"

DO NOT all these rhetorical questions PRESUPPOSE one simple and plain truth... that they are dealing with people who are ALREADY regenerated... For it is SUCH alone who are able to HEAR the good news (the REPORT of their eternal salvation by God's free grace). to BELIEVE in Him and to CALL on Christ???

DO NOT all these activities PRESUPPOSES LIFE? Is it not EVEN COMMON SENSE that life MUST PRECEDE the activities of that life?

Is it not common sense that these activities - of calling upon Christ, of believing in Christ, and hearing the gospel - are POSSIBLE only because eternal life has been given to them. They are spiritual activities of the eternal life that has been bestowed at new birth - WITHOUT the gospel preaching. "So is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit."

Christ Himself declared, "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." Those under consideration in Paul's rhetorical questions are those who have enabled and CAN... they are ALREADY regenerated, and they needed to be CONVERTED to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry.

So many preachers and their followers insist that the preaching of the gospel is an indispensable means to the regeneration of sinners dead in their trespasses and sins.

===============

Vernon Johnson

Amen Bro. Sing. It has been embedded in the minds of the multitudes that man must hear and believe the gospel in order to get themselves saved. As you point out, only those who have already been regenerated can hear and believe the gospel One of the great utilities of the gospel is to bring good news of salvation, not to offer salvation.

Sing F Lau
Of course, they must hear and believe in order to save themselves from this perverse and crooked generation. But in order for them to be able to hear and believe God must FIRST effectually call them out of their state of sin and death, all by God's own free and sovereign grace. God got them saved from eternal hell, so that they may hear and believe and obey to save themselves from the hell on earth!

Vernon Johnson

Amen. And that is why it is so important to rightly divide the word of truth.

Its time vs. His time; an answer vs. an appeal

February 7, 2017  · 

How different are they - the KJV and the ESV?

As different as the world is from eternity; well, quite literally.

Read on and be shocked, if you are capable of being shocked.

A Brother inquired:
How do [you] understand this verse?

"He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end." Ecclesiastes 3:11

******************

I responded:

I read from my Bible to see the context of the verse and noted some disturbing differences.

[I later checked and found that it is quoted from ESV. They had the Revised STANDARD version, the New American STANDARD version, and now the English STANDARD version. Soon they will come up with a Global STANDARD version to be followed by the Ultimate STANDARD version, and maybe finally the De Endtime STANDARD version!]

First, I need to figure out how this passage relates to the subject under consideration. How do you relate this passage to the topic we are studying. Just trying to understand.

Second, the translation I'm using (ole KJ) reads quite differently on that verse, QUITE significantly. The 3-verse paragraph (giving you the immediate context of verse 11 you are inquiring about) reads thus:

Eccle 3:9-11.
9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in His time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

ESV "He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end."

Note the significant differences:

1. "... everything beautiful in ITS time..." versus "every thing beautiful in HIS time."
- ITS time, and HIS time... the exact time approved and appointed by Him is also the time He makes a thing beautiful. [One pronoun refers back to the things made beautiful; the other pronoun refers to the LORD God who has made the things beautiful. A whole world of difference.]

2. "...He has put ETERNITY into man's heart..." versus "He hath set the WORLD in their heart..." [One speaks of subliminal spiritual reality, the other of common earthy creation of God.]

If God has INDEED put eternity into man's heart (as your translation reads) then WHY can't man find out what God has done from the beginning to the end? When God has put eternity into a man's heart, he is made capable of learning and knowing all the things that God has revealed in His inspired word, revealing plainly what God has done from the beginning to the end.
-----------

PJ Walters
Another excellent place to show the difference between these two is 1 Peter 3:21. KJV says that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God; ESV says that baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience. One says it's an answer; the other says it's an appeal.

 1Pe 3:21 KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Salvation precedes the activities of salvation

Life precedes its activities;
even so, eternal salvation by grace
precedes the activities of temporal salvation.

.. 

#life_precedes_its_activities

The sinner that "flies" to Christ is no less a superman than a sinner that "decides" for Christ!

A sinner that can "fly" to Christ is not only very far from utter helplessness and despair, but also makes a great decision to "fly"!

Deciding and flying (in the spiritual realm) are activities of those whom God has effectually called out of their native state of sin and death and condemnation in Adam to that of righteousness and eternal life and justification in Christ.

What are your thoughts?

p/s I spent two years at the London Theological Seminary (1988-90), supported through the 'Lloyd-Jones Memorial Fund'. It was a good exposure.
---------

Dan
This sort of saying is popular among the Banner of Truth / neo-reformed but to my way of thinking it's just lofty rhetoric that doesn't really move the needle of understanding. If someone is helpless and in despair and they go to Christ as a result, did they not "decide" to do so based on their present circumstances? Does rebranding someone's decision to go to Christ as "flying" change any of that. No, not one bit. But it does gain some theological street-cred from the garden variety evangelical.

For a real eye-opener, DMLJ fans should read his teaching on Immediate Holy Spirit regeneration. While I don't endorse his every expression of the matter, he is far closer to what I believe than any modern-day, DMLJ-quoting Calvinist that I've encountered.

https://www.monergism.com/.../sdg/effectualregeneration.html
MONERGISM.COM
Effectual Calling and Regeneration by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

Sing
Dan Samons Thank you. I always enjoy your helpful comments. Thank you.

Dan
Sing - thanks for the kind words. I feel the same about your posts, brother Lau.

Reggie
Dan Samons you took the words outta my mouth brother! This type of rhetoric still exists amongst this “neo-reformed” group of young believers….

Reggie
Sing: yes, bro… what he said… I swear! I was thinking this same thing… and hey.. I love these reform guys! Love em all! But, just as the neo-Pentecostal Christians are carried away with a wind of doctrine(tongues), so are these guys…. stuck at a place they can’t seem to recover from…. Knee jerk reaction to an arminian view of soteriology…

Dan
Reggie- There'a a lot of "one-liner-ism" in evangelicalism today. I love a good one-liner, but flashy rhetoric does not a good one-liner make, IMO. In many instances, one-liners are a tale full of sound and fury... signifying nothing.

Lloyd Wilkinson
I’ve found that you can’t put all Reformed believers and theologians in one basket any more than you can do the same with Primitive Baptists. It often takes sitting down with individuals and carefully discussing and dividing these doctrines with a scalpel to get a good understanding of exactly what someone believes. Watching some of R.C. Sproul’s YouTube videos a few years ago, I was surprised to see in his TULIP series that he wrote “Perseverance” on the blackboard and then drew a line through it and wrote “Preservation” under it, saying that “perseverance” implied that you had to do something to keep your salvation. And “Preservation” is a better way to state the security we have in our salvation. (I’m paraphrasing). Many reformed believers would not make this distinction.

Human Day - 人日

February 7, 2023  · Penang 

A seven-day week is observed by every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation of mankind, of diverse cultures and vastly different religions. What's the explanation for this universal phenomenon; where did they get the idea come from?

"Get the answer to this question and you will see just how much of a grip God has on man…."

Genesis 2
1 ¶Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

--------------

By Reggie Lee

I can understand a month… this is a lunar cycle.
I can understand a day… this is a solar cycle.
I can understand a year… this is an orbital cycle.
I can understand an hour… this is a standard unit that equally divides the day. Along with minutes…
I can understand the original second… it is the measurement of time governed by striking a crystal and timing the wave lengths… and the atomic second makes even more sense… Atomic" second

Since 1967, the second has been defined as exactly "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom" (at a temperature of 0 K and at mean sea level).

But…. 7 days forming one week?
There is nothing astronomical or geological which corresponds to a 7 day period.

Measuring out time using a week has never fit into a month, year, decade or century perfectly.

How is it that all the cultures of the world go by a seven-day week cycle?

Get the answer to this question and you will see just how much of a grip God has on man….

"... save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Apostle Paul solemnly reminded Timothy,

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." 1Tim 4:16

How, and in what sense will the activities of Timothy save himself and them that sit under his ministry? Aren't they saved by God yet?

Please remember the simple fact the same word 'save' applies to both parties, Timothy the minister and those under his ministry.

How shall a faithful ministry both save the minister and those that hear him?

Apostle Paul also said some are "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2Tim 3:7. Perhaps one reason is this: some are ever pulpiteering and sermonizing but fail to preach the gospel truths. Aren't they two sides of the same coin?

Are you sitting under a ministry that saves you or one that destroys you? Make a wise choice. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
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Comments

Victorio 
Amen.

Dan
Some say that Conditional Time Salvation was “unheard of in Christendom prior to the PBs of the last 150 years” but the Apostle Paul taught Conditional Time Salvation to Timothy in the 1st century and codifies it in scripture. Understanding this is a requirement for right division.

Jackson
Dan, the folks who say that also generally believe that no Baptists existed until after the Reformation and ignore the existence of the Waldenes, Donatists, Anabaptists, etc. entirely. Is there an “ad historium” argument? History’s always written by and about the winners after all.

Rayburn
Dan, Amen! The key for understanding and rightly dividing the word of truth is the answer. There is no paradox in the God inspired scripture. That being true, there are two salvation's. First is eternal by God's choice before earthly creation, and the second, misunderstood by so very many, is the one to be worked out by man leading to peace or anguish depending on self. So many just skim over a cheery picked verse or two and reach/preach the wrong conclusion.

Dan
Ray: Amen! The key for understanding and rightly dividing the word of truth is the answer. 


Dan: Yes. When it comes to rightly dividing “salvation” it is absolutely indispensable. 



Ray: There is no paradox in the God inspired scripture. 


Dan: Completely agree. There are rhetorical paradoxes (plays on words, "let the dead bury their dead", etc.) but not logical paradoxes. That is a MAJOR point of contention between PBs and most modern Calvinists who rely on “antimony” (i.e., logical paradoxes/contradictions) to “explain” the evident logical inconsistencies in their theology. 



Ray: That being true, there are two salvation's. First is eternal by God's choice before earthly creation, and the second, misunderstood by so very many, is the one to be worked out by man leading to peace or anguish depending on self. 


Dan: Yes. Eternal salvation from the everlasting punishment for sin and temporal salvation from this untoward generation that is experienced to the extent that the regenerate seek God and live in accordance to his precepts. The former is the same for all of God’s elect, the latter greatly varied based upon the degree to which one submits to doing their reasonable service to God. In the former Daniel and Lot experience all of the same covenantal benefits, in the latter Lot’s life was riddled with consequences that Daniel’s life avoided. 



Ray: So many just skim over a cheery picked verse or two and reach/preach the wrong conclusion.


Dan: Truth.

Jackson
Cherry picking is very common in Christendom regarding “save”, “saved”, “salvation” and “kingdom of God” verses in Scripture. The mast majority of mainstream Christian camps take the vast majority of those verses, particularly in Romans 10 (aka the “Roman Road”), to be eternal, which creates a schism between Gods sovereignty and man’s responsibility. Old line Primitive Baptists solve this schism by the simple logic of ascribing eternal salvation solely to God and acknowledging that man must believe, repent and obey for deliverance from the dark sin, error, heresy and confusion of this world to righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. We call this “temporal/time salvation”. This concept put everything into balance for me as a teenager and new believer and caused me to stray from any and all Arminian teaching of the SBC and also many mainline Calvinist ideas of evangelism particularly gospel regeneration. Theologians often make the simple complex and the complex simple. Arminians doctrine focuses on man’s responsibility and only acknowledges Gods sovereignty in word only, but assert that he ultimately is too benevolent to force his hand on a sinners soul, honoring the will of man. Calvinists doctrine focuses on an affirmation of original sin, election, predestination, and eternal security, thus realizing Gods sovereignty in eternal salvation but acknowledges man’s responsibility still playing a part, in that it must come to pass such as crops in the rain. Meaning if God so sends the rain on a sinner, he will bear fruit and continue to do so much like crops grown in soil will spring up after rain. Neither are true. God is not at all submissive to the will of man, quickening him in his sin and no doubt making a change but keeping those ignorant and not continuing in his hand.

Reggie

Saved from the Revealing Wrath of Jesus Christ toward Israel, Jerusalem and Rome.
If Christians would simply go study what actually happened between 67 & 100 AD, they would see Paul’s, Peter’s John’s and Jude’s Letters in a different light.

Peter in Acts says, “Save yourselves from this untoward generation!”

Untoward= unexpected, unanticipated, unforeseen, unpredictable, unpredicted. surprising, unusual. inopportune, untimely, ill-timed, badly timed, mistimed. inconvenient, awkward, unwelcome, unfavourable, adverse, unfortunate, infelicitous. inappropriate, unsuitable, inapt.

The generation Jesus preached to and the world power of that time both would be destroyed within 70 years of Jesus’ Crucifixion. Jerusalem within 40 years.

Now, in John’s Epistle of The Revelation of Jesus, there are warnings from Jesus Himself to 6 of the 7 The Churches. These were the elect of God. Believers… these were not pagans. And in five out of the seven churches, Jesus warns some of them that He would remove their Lamp from His presence.

Well, the scriptures being studied, believed and executed in one’s life is in consideration here in both Paul’s Admonition to Timothy and Jesus’ Warnings to the seven Churches.

Time salvation. Not Eternal. 

Spiritual life and spiritual mindedness

A living man but weak and sickly;
even so,
A regenerated man but carnally minded. 

 https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10203299896793666

December 9, 2014 

Question:
Does a man have a spiritual mind through regeneration or does he develop a spiritual mind beginning at the conversion by the hearing, and believing of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Is a spiritual mind an intrinsic fruit of regeneration?
What do you think?

An answer:
A spiritual mind is the mind of a child of God that is BEING renewed and transformed by and through the ministry of the word of truth.

A child of God has spiritual life through the immediate regeneration by the Spirit of God, without the ministry of the word.

A child of God CANNOT, and DOES NOT and WILL NOT have a spiritual mind apart from the ministry of the word that renews and transforms the mind, AND the child of God subjecting his mind to the will of God.

Without the ministry of the word, God's children remain ignorant as well as carnal!!!

Regeneration DOES NOT produce a mind that is spiritual.
No, a spiritual mind IS NOT intrinsic to regeneration.

----------------------------
Comments

(One Dan made some comments but has deleted them. Just read between the lines.]

Sing F Lau
If speaking of nature, then it is a redundant question... since that is already assumed by virtue of regeneration, Brother Dan.

The original question is this:
Is a spiritual mind intrinsic to regeneration? What do you think?

If the spiritual mind is intrinsic to regeneration, then EVERY child of God without exception will have a spiritual mind, and therefore none will have a carnal mind. But that idea does not accord with the Scriptures.

Sing F Lau
Yes, a regenerate has a spiritual nature; he is no longer flesh, he is spirit. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

A regenerate has a spiritual nature but NOT an intrinsic spiritual mind the way the Scriptures speak of being spiritually minded. A spiritual nature enables him to have a spiritual mind.

In the context of a regenerate, being spiritually minded and carnally minded are opposed to each other.

A spiritual nature by the divine activity of regeneration, and a spiritual mind by its renewal through the ministry of the word and being transformed through it are quite distinct indeed.

Ante Zivkovic
I think that the issue is that a regenerated person cannot know right from wrong without the ministry.

Sing F Lau
1 Cor 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

These Corinthians believers were children of God, regenerate elect.
But they were NOT spiritual-minded. They were carnal!

Spiritual things are spiritually discerning. Those who have a spiritual nature, a new nature as a result of regeneration are capable of discerning spiritual things. Under the ministry of the word, a man's MIND with a spiritual NATURE will soon be renewed and his mind is said to be spiritual.

A dead man who is quickened will soon gain health and strength under a rigorous regime of nourishment and physiotherapy. I hope this helps to illustrate what I'm saying.

Sing F Lau
Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
============
It requires great effort on the part of God's children to move from being carnally minded to being spiritually minded.

If being spiritually minded is intrinsic in regeneration, then life and peace here on earth are automatically the portion of all of God's children.

Sing F Lau
I thought so... we are defining things differently.
A man with a new spiritual NATURE is not necessarily of spiritual mind.
You seem to disagree with this... do I read you right?

If a spiritual mind is intrinsic to regeneration, then each and every child of God (regenerated elect) IS spiritually minded, and none will ever be carnally minded. Such an idea is quite contrary to the Scriptures.

I wish such an idea is true indeed. It will make pastoral ministry a whole lot easier!

Sing F Lau
1. It all depends on how you understand "spiritual mind" and "spiritually minded."

In one sense EVERYTHING about a regenerate is spiritual.... since " that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Thus he is a spiritual man, in contrast to being a natural man, of the flesh. Such a spiritual man DOES NOT necessarily be spiritually minded. To be spiritually minded, his "spiritual mind" - the mind of the spiritual man MUST need to be instructed and renewed by the word of God. Thus being spiritually minded is NOT intrinsic to regeneration.

2. The mind of the "spiritual man" on any particular matter is either carnal or spiritual, either conformed to God's word, or not.

On matter A, he may be spiritually minded, on matter B he may be carnally minded.

This is how I understand the matter.

Sing F Lau
Let me put rephrase what you say - "I believe Paul (Rom. 8:6) talks about two sorts of mindedness that a spiritual mind of a regenerated may put on: spiritually minded or carnally minded."

Is that what you are saying - a spiritual mind yet carnally minded?

I would rather say - a regenerated man yet carnally minded.
(It is like saying - a living man yet weak and sickly.)

Sing F Lau
The reason I REPHRASE it (I did say "Let me rephrase what you say") to highlight the problem as I see it... that of equating a man with spiritual life with a spiritual mind.

In your understanding, a regenerate is ESSENTIALLY spiritually minded also, and then that spiritual mind can be spiritually minded or carnally minded.

I think that manner of speaking is a recipe for confusion.

Sing F Lau
Brother Dan, I may have erred.
I will leave it to you to use such language as "a spiritual mind is not spiritually minded."

Carnally minded is the result of the spiritual man not thinking and acting spiritually. You would attribute it to the old nature.

Are you a daughter of Mother Harlot???

 

February 2, 2013  ·

Are you a daughter of Mother Harlot???

The Mother Harlot teaches:
- Legal justification before God is by BOTH faith in Christ AND works of righteousness.

Mother Harlot's daughters amputated one of the two gangrenous limbs, and declared:
- Legal justification is by faith ALONE in Christ.

The Holy Scriptures say, and the old school Baptists believed rightly:

- Legal justification is based solely on the righteousness of Christ alone freely IMPUTED to the elect, and this righteousness legally imputed is freely APPLIED to an elect personally by the Spirit of God at the effectual calling; this justification is TO BE EXPERIENCED through faith in Christ alone, and is EVIDENCED by BOTH works of righteousness and faith in Christ.

Kindly note these distinct aspects of justification!

Justification accomplished:
- by Christ's blood, faith, and righteousness.

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Justification applied:
- by grace, freely without any condition to an elect STILL in the state of condemnation and death

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Justification experienced and evidenced:
- experienced by faith alone, evidenced by faith and works.

Ro 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

God purposed justification for all His elect... before time.

Christ secured justification for all His elect... at the cross.

The Spirit applies justification to each elect... at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

The gospel ministry brings an already effectually called elect, a child of God, to the gospel of his justification by God's free grace. Believing the truth of his salvation brings great joy.

Bill Taylor
Amen, Bro. Sing!

Adam Wells
Thanks, Bro Sing, very simply stated.

Jerry Chapin
Amen! Bro. Sing...

Cantoro Joe
Abram was justified by faith before he was circumcised... and in the book of James, Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

'a man may say', is not a man hast faith...

So this is about having the right type of faith...

Sing F Lau
Cantoro, please tell me when was Abraham justified BY GOD. Thanks.

Cantoro Joe
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen 17--> circumcised
Gen 22 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

believe (or faith), Abraham was declared as righteous, before circumcised... then Gen 22 shows the righteous works that follow...

So there's no such thing as works outside 'justified by faith' that can please God. I'm not saying that our works following conversion can save us, but they will be evidence

Cantoro Joe
I'd wait for other comments... the meantime, back to studying God's word... pursuing my goal of understanding the whole Bible...

will be going to City Harvest church at about 9 plus to have a first-hand look at the worship service....

Sing F Lau
Cantoro, studying this article will do you more good than going to City Harvest.

Mama always told me that I don't have to stick my head into a garbage bin to have first-hand knowledge that it stinks <LOOOL> Wise Mama!

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/12/massive-theological-blunder-by-reformed.html

Read, and study and digest the points raised. May save you from some serious errors!!!

Goodnight!

Sing F Lau
Hey Cantoro Joe, so did you read the article above?
May our Lord grant you understanding!
Don't be TOOOOOOOOOOO stuck in your idea of "reformed theology" to learn the truth of the Bible!!!

Cantoro Joe
Yea... I did... but not very convinced... I'm in the process of reading my bible cover to cover again... of course, I hope to come as close to scripture as possible

Sing F Lau
"Not very convinced..." Convinced but not VERY convinced! <LOOOOL>

Cantoro Joe, I am NOT interested in convincing you! That is the Spirit's job!

My purpose is to make you aware that 'reformed theology" has a whole lot of inconsistencies and contradictions, not as smooth as you think!!! When an honest and thinking man is confronted with inconsistencies and contradictions, he will either choose to seek to be consistent or choose to live with HIS inconsistencies and contradictions!

People who say not convinced but offer no rebuttal are best to be ignored!

They are not honest enough to engage with the issue yet!