Esau and Jacob - their election

The election of Jacob over Esau:
When did it happen?
In eternity or when they were in their mother's womb?

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10201255108475236

December 30, 2013 

#Esau_and_Jacob_and_their_election
#The_Godly_line

An interesting thought cross my mind as a result of a good question asked by a Brother.

What do you think?

A brother inquired:

"But then I ponder aloud.....Esau is born under the roof of Issac, the seed of the godly line (is the doctrine of the godly line still applicable here now?) and my question, "is Esau saved unto eternity?..... "

======

Brother, when I say I love good questions, it is not because I have all the answers. It is because it makes me study the Scriptures again.

Your question about the godly line is very interesting - "is the doctrine of the godly line still applicable here now?"

I understand the "godly line" as a strict reference to that very narrow genealogical line that connects Jesus the Son of God back to Adam the son of God, Luke 3:38. [I believe the "godly line", strictly speaking, terminated at the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.] In that "godly line," each link (each individual, like Jacob in that "godly line) may have many sons and daughters but only one specific male offspring of God's OWN SOVEREIGN and GRACIOUS CHOICE carried on the line until it terminated at Jesus the Christ. The rest of the offspring (whether they were among God's elect or not, are not the focus of the biblical account, except for the descendants of the chosen nation of Israel.

In human tradition, it is the eldest male seed that carries on the line. In Divine Providence, it is the one by God's sovereign choice - the human choice is bypassed to emphasize the free and sovereign grace of God.

Perhaps we should see the case of Esau and Jacob from that light... in the CONTEXT of election to be the NEXT LINK in the "godly line", and NOT in the context of election unto eternal salvation. As far as Esau's right to be the link that continued the "godly line" he was rejected of God. That much is clear. However, we so often see the matter from the perspective of eternal salvation.  Seeing the case from the latter perspective CHANGE the whole issue completely.

Is Esau saved unto eternity? I don't know. From what I read from the biblical account, Esau is no worse than Jacob; in fact, he was put in much favourable light. Jacob was a schemer and deceiver nearly all his life!!! Esau has his grievous faults.

Esau's EXCLUSION from being a link in that "godly line" is OFTEN CARELESSLY equated as Esau's EXCLUSION from the election unto eternal salvation. Those who advocate the latter need to prove it from the Scriptures.

Well, I thank you for asking the question and making me think on this matter this morning. THANKS.

=====

 

Adam Wells
Bro Sing, if we view Rom 9 and the exclusion of Esau as a non-eternal matter, then consistency would demand that we also view the election mentioned there as a non-eternal matter. There are those who do teach it that way and see it only as the election of nations (from which the redeemer would come) and not of individuals. Is this what you are trying to say?

Charles Page
"Esau's EXCLUSION from being a link in that "godly line" is OFTEN CARELESSLY equated as Esau's EXCLUSION from the election unto eternal salvation."

The only thing that God states about Esau before they were born is that the older will serve the younger. There is no reprobation of Esau in that only a prophetic statement. It has nothing to do with God saying he hates Esau and loves Jacob.

This is clearly eternal salvation and temporal salvation demonstrated in this Genesis account. The statement of God loving Jacob and hating Esau is the response of God to their respective "lifestyle conversions"

In fact, as you have stated Sing, this love for Jacob is perhaps a tongue-in-cheek statement from God saying "I could just as well love Esau and hate Jacob!"

It has nothing to do with election as is so popularly promoted. Praise the Lord, they both are elect! Isn't that good news?

Charles Page
Hosea says Jacob wept to get his way with angels and God had a controversy with him over that!

Sing F Lau
Bro Adam, I believe in Rom 9-11, Apostle Paul is dealing with a deep mystery WHY many of God's children (therefore regenerated elect) among the Jews were unbelieving concerning the gospel, THAT IS, why only a remnant among them was chosen to enter into the gospel rest. It was in that context, that Paul marshalled in the appropriate example of Esau and Jacob. Paul was not dealing with the non-elect among the Jews.

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
From Jacob came the Godly line of Judah?

Because Esau was hated, did this mean, he and the continuing line after him were hated?

Because Esau was hated, does this mean, he couldn't be saved?

Sing F Lau
Bro Peter, if "saved by grace through faith" you mean eternal salvation freely bestowed upon us, based solely upon the faithfulness/fidelity of Christ work of redemption, when we were dead in trespasses and sins, then I concur with you.

What were the promises implied, and of what did he disqualify himself? Thanks.

[Peter deleted his comment!!!]

Adam Wells
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever. 5And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel. - Mal 1:2-5

Sing F Lau
Brother Dellis, Jacob and Judah (both being not firstborn of their fathers!) - were both individual links IN the ONE godly line that ran from Adam to Jesus.

Esau was "hated" only in the sense that his birthright as the first born was bypassed by God's sovereign purpose.

"I hated Esau" is often mistakenly understood as him being consigned to eternal damnation.

Sing F Lau
Bro Adam, that's a good passage. The intent and focus of the passage is to point out, how DESPITE being not the firstborn, Jacob the younger brother was so loved by God... a fact that greatly aggravates the ungratefulness of Jacob.

Isaac blessed Jacob in this manner:
28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother’s sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

Isaac blessed Esau in this manner:
39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;
40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.

Bryant Cutler
Brother Sing, I see from your post above that you are not sure if Esau is elect or not... But I say unto you does the Lord hate his elect? It is clear from Paul in Romans and from Malachi that Esau was not saved. I do not believe that being born into a family is any assurance of salvation ever. (Sorry, using speech to text on my tablet... Didn't notice the misspellings)

Sing F Lau
Brother Bryant, "Does the Lord hate His elect?"

That's a very interesting question, worthy of careful consideration.

It depends on what you mean by that.

Is God's sovereignly PREVENTING some of His children from seeing the gospel truth in Jesus Christ an instant of hating the elect? I inquire to understand what you are saying.

Rom 11:
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Is depriving the firstborn of his birthright an instant of God "hating" Esau?

Or did the hating of Esau lie in God's election of Jacob to eternal salvation, and rejection of Esau unto eternal damnation?

Did that election take place in eternity, or in time? 
Will you tell us?

I'm asking to learn.

Adam Wells
One can easily get confused in all the twists and turns of a conversation. I agree that Rom 11 deals with the unbelief of the elect Jews which you quoted above, not chapter 10. Let me ask a plain question so as to understand more clearly what you have written. Does Rom 9 teach that the man Jacob was elected for eternal salvation? (Predestination) or Does it teach that God's election of Jacob merely signified that the Chosen One would be born from his body?

Sing F Lau
Thanks, I've edited the mistake.

You asked, "Does Rom 9 teach that the man Jacob was elected for eternal salvation? (Predestination) or Does it teach that God's election of Jacob merely signified that the Chosen One would be born from his body?

I believe it is the LATTER - Jacob was elected to be the NEXT LINK in the "godly line" that would eventually lead to the promised Messiah. So, the election is not unto eternal salvation, but that is the most common and popular idea).

Each election has its own specific end, depending on the context. One of them is election unto eternal salvation.

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Note a few things:
- children not yet born, BUT ALREADY conceived in the womb when the said election took place... the preeminence of the younger over the elder!
- the purpose of God according to THAT election might stand, superseding the purpose of man whether the 1st born has preeminence.
- the implication of that election is specifically this: the elder shall serve the younger, and NOT the elder shall be bypassed in eternal salvation but the younger chosen unto eternal salvation.
- There is no unrighteousness with God in electing the younger to have preeminence over the firstborn!!!

Sing F Lau
Bro Eng Sun, concerning Judas Iscariot... you asked "Is the son of perdition, Judas Iscariot seated amongst the godly cloud of witnesses that cheer every step we take on earth? " Your question is obviously rhetorical, requiring a negative answer.

Judas Iscariot is, humanly speaking, one of the most tragic cases... an APOSTLE who betrayed his Lord. Why? Because of disillusionment based on some ignorant and erroneous ideas... that is, Jesus came to usher in an earthly kingdom of which Judas would become the Finance Minister!!! Judas may be a traitor ... I fear that there are worse traitors than Judas AMONG God's children... who betray Jesus in a more sophisticated way... for example, those who are so learned and enlightened (like many theologians and doctors of divinity) but teaching errors that injure the Person and Name of our blessed Lord Jesus Christ.

"The son of perdition" is a very strong term... Joh 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

So, look at this verse where the term is found. Just some observations...
- Judas was one among "them", the pronoun indicating the 12 Apostles.
- Christ has kept THEM in God's name, them including Judas Iscariot, until the appointed time.
- Judas was ONE AMONG the twelve Apostles whom God has given to Christ, and he kept them by the Father's power and authority.
- None of the 12 apostles were lost EXCEPT Judas, the son of perdition.
- And Judas fell from his HIGH and UNIQUE office of apostleship... thus the strong term "THE son of perdition."
- Judas' fall from the high and unique office of apostleship was not because Jesus could not keep him, but was necessary so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus, the all-knowing Son of God Himself picked Judas to be one of His 12 disciples. God gave Judas to be one of Jesus' 12 Apostles.

Did Jesus make the horrid mistake of choosing a non-elect to be his special disciple... an Apostle?

Or did He know all along, and picked Judas, that what had been prophesied would be fulfilled?

Properly understanding pure grace, and the distinction between eternal salvation and temporal salvation enables a man to see things from another perspective. I'm just studying.

Hulan Bass
Was Judas Iscariot a child of God? Jesus stated in Matt. 26:24 that it would have been good if he had not been born.

Sing F Lau
Thanks, Elder Hulan Bass.
Lots of questions can be asked!

Mt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Please tell, with your great mind for analysis...
- in what sense it would have been good for Judas if he had not been born?
- it would have been good with respect to who, himself, or others?

Is Jesus saying that it would have been good if Judas never existed, not even conceived, or conceived but never born to commit such heinous and treasonous act?

But isn't the birth of Judas, and his acts NECESSARY for the fulfilment of the prophecy? (John 17:12)

Regeneration and Conversion Contrasted

 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10210692173915974
December 29, 2017  

Regeneration and Conversion

The Question asked:

So, there is a varying degree of conversion but there is only one regeneration?

An Answer is given:

## Yes, you are right. There is only one regeneration...
- on EXACTLY the same ground,
- by EXACTLY the same divine agency,
- to  EXACTLY the same degree,
- with EXACTLY the same effect.

Regeneration is the act of God, instantaneous, unrepeatable, perfect and complete; the spiritually dead is quickened to eternal life.

Every elect of God:
- is equally JUSTIFIED (IMPUTED with the SAME righteousness of Jesus Christ): enjoyed the same justification of life, Rom 5:18. The righteousness of Christ APPLIED to an elect personally at his effectual calling is the sole and only ground of his regeneration.
- is equally acted upon by the Triune God in this new creation, born of God, given life by Christ, quickened by the Holy Spirit.
- is equally REGENERATED, equally quickened, brought out of their native state spiritual death to eternal life.
- equally ADOPTED and given the SAME GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT to dwell in each of them.
- thus equally fitted for eternal glory, all by the free and sovereign activities of God.

However, your conversion to the gospel of God and the godliness of life is dependent upon a whole host of factors, the chief of which is a faithful gospel ministry and fellowship of a local church.; and your willingness to work out his own salvation with fear and trembling in obedient to the Father's will for you.

(Conversion requires my effort to feed on the spiritual food and grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ...)

So great a cloud of witnesses

So great a cloud of witnesses

 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10217977870973847
December 22, 2020

#So_great_a_cloud_of_witnesses
#What_examples

Heb 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So great not only in multitude - see the numerous saints listed in chapter 11- but also in their exemplary faithfulness.

Heb 11
33 Who through faith
- subdued kingdoms,
- wrought righteousness,
- obtained promises,
- stopped the mouths of lions,

34 Quenched the violence of fire,
- escaped the edge of the sword,
- out of weakness were made strong,
- waxed valiant in fight,
- turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again:
- and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned,
- they were sawn asunder,
- were tempted,
- were slain with the sword:
- they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins;
- being destitute,
- afflicted,
- tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:)
- they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

The inconvenience of Covid19 is not worthy to be compared with their trials and tribulations.

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/1182086067794
December 20, 2012

This is the work of God you shall do...

This is the work that God wants you to do...

It is a work to be done by you. It is work!

Believing in Christ is a work... Christ said it himself!!!

John 6

28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Very plain words, are they not? but the blind and obtuse and willfully ignorant will not want to see nor believe it!!!

The inquirers are good men who wanted to do the works of God... i.e. the works that God requires of them.

Some interpret the inquiry as those men wanting to do the work that God Himself does... just plain stupidity! Supposing you had come to Jesus, and asked the same question, what would you have meant? And did Jesus answer your question, or did He say something completely unrelated to your inquiry???

So they inquired of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Lord Jesus Christ understood their question and answered them plainly.

They inquired about workS - PLURAL. They are a zealous lot, they wanted to do the WORKS that God the Father requires of them to do.

But Jesus directed their mind to the first and chief work - SINGULAR - THIS IS THE WORK of God. He makes it very simple... this is the chief and foremost work that God requires His children to do - the WORK of believing Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

Christ himself said BELIEVING in Him is a WORK required by God... not of everybody, BUT of His children... because it is a truth concerning His children, and His children are required and under obligation to believe what is ALREADY true of them... that Jesus Christ is the Saviour sent to save them.

If you believe your faith has anything to do with your ETERNAL salvation, then you are claiming that you are saved by your work; you have denied and repudiated eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace!

 

The BIBLICAL CONTEXT of "justification by faith alone"

 

The CONTEXT of "justification by faith alone" is 
Apostle Paul's battle against the Judaizers' claim
that the ceremonial laws must be
kept by the Gentile believers.
It's faith in Jesus alone; 
Perish the ceremonial laws.  

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10215276647724954
December 20, 2019

The_Context_of_Justification_by_faith_alone

The CONTEXT of "justification by faith alone" is how a man, ALREADY freely justified by the grace of God, experiences the blessedness of his justified state; is it by faith in Christ alone, or by keeping the ceremonial laws, or both? 

That's the question; it WASN'T how a condemned is justified by God, the righteous Judge. There is ONLY ONE SOLITARY answer to this question - Romans 3:24 KJV — "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

God is the JUSTIFIER of the condemned; "freely by grace" is the METHOD of justifying the condemned; "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" is the ALONE BASIS of justifying the condemned.

STOP barking up the wrong trees, doggies!

Have you understood? In hermeneutics, the first three principal rules are:

1. Context

2. Context

3. Context.

Ignoring these rules, the popular justification by faith alone had been turned into a pernicious heresy.

2Peter 2:
1¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Please peruse this article:

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/05/three-distinct-sets-of-contrast-in.html

======

Believing in Christ is a work

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10215273406723931
December 20, 2019

#Faith_is_a_work
#Justification_by_faith_alone
#Still_justification_by_work!

This is the work of God you shall do...
This is the work that God wants you to do...
It is a work to be done by you. It is work!
Believing in Christ is a work.

Christ said it himself!!!

John 6
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Very plain words, are they not? but the blind and obtuse and willfully ignorant will not to see nor believe it!!!

The inquirers are good men who wanted to do the works of God... i.e. the works that God requires of them.

Some interpret the inquiry as those men wanting to do the works that God Himself does... just plain stupidity! Supposing you had come to Jesus, and asked the same question, what would you have meant? And did Jesus answer your question, or did He say something completely unrelated to your inquiry???

So they inquired of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Lord Jesus Christ understood their question and answered them plainly.

They inquired about workS - PLURAL. They are a zealous lot, they wanted to do the WORKS that God the Father requires of them to do.

But Jesus directed their mind to the first and chief work - SINGULAR - THIS IS THE WORK of God. He makes it very simple... this is the chief and foremost work that God requires His children to do - the WORK of believing Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

Christ himself said BELIEVING in Him is a WORK required by God... not of every body, BUT of His children... because it is a truth concerning His children, and His children are required and under obligation to believe what is ALREADY true of them... that Jesus Christ is the Saviour sent to save them.

If you believe your faith has anything to do with your ETERNAL salvation, then you are claiming that you are saved by your work; you have denied and repudiated eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace!

And if you believe the fable of justification by faith alone, you are really insisting that your justification before God is by your WORK of believing in Christ.

Faith in Christ and the Righteousness of God

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/4094249430058
December 20, 2012

Faith in Christ and the Righteousness of God

The righteousness of God is the righteousness provided by God.

The righteousness of God is the righteousness provided by God through His Son Jesus Christ.

Sin is the transgression of the law of God.

And sins bring condemnation and death.

Righteousness is obedience to the law of God.

And righteousness secures justification and life.

I consider these as basic and elementary.

The righteousness of God is provided through Christ's life of perfect and sinless obedience to the whole law of God, thus meeting all the righteous demands of the thrice-holy God.

A man's faith in Christ plays NO PART in God's provision of righteousness for him, a condemned dead sinner. If anything at all, faith in Jesus Christ is a fruit and effect of God's free and sovereign act of applying that righteousness of His own provision in Jesus Christ to a UN-justified, condemned, spiritually dead man.

Why the necessity for such emphatic exclusion?

Why the necessity for such emphatic exclusion?

 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/1182086067794
December 18, 2012

Question: Why the necessity for such emphatic exclusion?

Answer: Because man has an intense inclination and evil propensity to sneak in his own work in his eternal salvation. His heart is deceitful above all things! 

See the vast majority of Christians who vehemently reject salvation by the grace of God ALONE, but by some grace PLUS their works! Of course, God's children, those already bestowed the eternal salvation by divine grace alone, must work out their own temporal salvation with fear and trembling. 

Rom 9:11 - "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth..."

Eph 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Tit 3:5 - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

2Ti 1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began..."

A popular and prevalent belief among Christians

 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/1182086067794
December 11, 2012

Here is a popular and prevalent belief among Christians. Do I represent it accurately? It goes like this:
- God gives the gift of faith to the UN-saved, i.e. those still in their native state of sins and death...
- The recipient of this gift then makes use of that gift to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior...
- As and when he does so, he is given the gift of eternal salvation from God.
- And all this is STILL salvation by God's free grace.

I do abhor misrepresentation. May I know if the above is a fair and accurate representation of that popular belief? Is that your understanding of how you are saved by God?
======

13 Comments

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
No Sing, If one has faith to believe, isn't he saved? or can he reject salvation and remain a believing lost man?

Julio Jr Perez Postrero
"God gives the gift of faith to the UN-saved,"
--------
for we know that faith is after life... God gives the gift of faith to the saved...

Sing F Lau
Dellis Layne Worsham Sr. and Julio Postrero, thank you for pointing out the obvious logical fallacy of the position I stated.

But before we can deal with the soundness of the belief, we need to make sure that we have represented the belief accurately?

Sing F Lau
Thanks, Brother Scott Collinge. Then the belief I have stated would be descriptive of the Calvinists!

Sing F Lau
Julio, God gives the gift of eternal salvation to the unsaved so that they are saved to the uttermost. The indwelling Spirit works the grace of faith and all other saving graces in them that are saved.

PJ Walters
These seem to be accurately stated and fairly asked. I know of many Reformed brethren who hold such a position and a few Arminian brethren.

Julio Jr Perez Postrero
thanks... Ptr. Sing F Lau..

Charles Page
The administrator of MABTS gave me the School's handbook to read thinking my reading their doctrinal position would convince me that the sign I was holding was (Repent Semi-Pelagians) incorrect. I saw him again another day when he came out to see if I had read the book. I opened the book and showed him the underlined words "The Holy Spirit regenerates the one who makes Jesus Christ Lord" and it was like a light come on in his facial expression. "I guess that is not a good statement!" he said and turned, got in his golf cart and left.

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
Sing, I read your article and really made sense of it. I have come to know you as one who does not pull punches and I am one who can take one if it means keeping me on track. Your answer to my post leaves me guessing whether I pointed it out the wrong or right way. please elaborate.

Is a spiritual mind an intrinsic fruit of regeneration?

Is a spiritual mind an intrinsic fruit of regeneration?

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10203299896793666

December 9, 2014 

 

Question:

Do we have a spiritual mind through regeneration or do we develop a spiritual mind beginning at the conversion by the hearing, and believing of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

 

Is a spiritual mind an intrinsic fruit of regeneration?

What do you think?

 

An answer: A spiritual mind is the mind of a child of God that is BEING renewed and transformed by and through the ministry of the word of truth.

 

A child of God has spiritual life through the immediate regeneration by the Spirit of God, without the ministry of the word.

 

A child of God CANNOT, and DOES NOT and WILL NOT have a spiritual mind apart from the ministry of the word that renews and transforms the mind, AND the child of God subjecting his mind to the will of God.

 

Without the ministry of the word, God's children remain ignorant as well as carnal!!!

 

Regeneration DOES NOT produce a mind that is spiritual.

 

No, a spiritual mind IS NOT intrinsic to regeneration.

=======

 

22 Comments

(some commentators have deleted their comments...) 

 

Sing

If speaking of nature, then it is a redundant question... since that is already assumed by virtue of regeneration, brother Dan.

 

Sing

The original question is this:

Is a spiritual mind intrinsic to regeneration? What do you think?

If the spiritual mind is intrinsic to regeneration, then EVERY child of God without exception will have a spiritual mind, and therefore none will have a carnal mind. But that idea does not accord with the Scriptures.

 

Sing

Yes, a regenerate has a spiritual nature; he is no longer flesh, he is spirit. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

 

A regenerate has a spiritual nature but NOT an intrinsic spiritual mind the way the Scriptures speak of being spiritually minded. A spiritual nature enables him to have a spiritual mind.

 

In the context of a regenerate, being spiritually minded and carnally minded are opposed to each other.

 

Sing

A spiritual nature by virtue of divine activity of regeneration, and a spiritual mind by virtue of its renewal through the ministry of the word and being transformed through it are quite distinct indeed.

 

Ante Zivkovic

I think that the issue is that a regenerated person cannot know right from wrong without the ministry.

 

Sing

1 Cor 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 

These Corinthians believers were children of God, regenerate elect.

 

But they were NOT spiritual-minded. They were carnal!

 

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Those who have a spiritual nature, a new nature as a result of regeneration are capable of discerning spiritual things. Under the ministry of the word, a man MIND with a spiritual NATURE will soon be renewed and his mind is said to be spiritual.

 

A dead man that is quickened will soon gain health and is strengthen under a rigorous regime of nourishment and physiotherapy. I hope this helps to illustrate what I'm saying.

 

Sing

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

============

It requires great effort on the part of God's children to move from being carnally minded to being spiritually-minded.

 

If being spiritually minded is intrinsic in regeneration, then life and peace here on earth are automatically the portions of all of God's children.

 

Sing

I thought so... we are defining things differently.

A man with a new spiritual NATURE is not necessarily of a spiritual mind.

 

You seem to disagree with this... do I read you right?

 

If a spiritual mind is intrinsic to regeneration, then each and every child of God (regenerated elect) IS spiritually-minded, and none will ever be carnally minded. Such an idea is quite contrary to the Scriptures.

 

I wish such an idea is true indeed. It will make pastoral ministry a whole lot easier!

 

Conformed to the image of Christ

Conformed to the image of Christ:
the crowns of thorns and of gold form a pair. 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10215187738622282
December 7, 2019 

#Conformed_to_the_image_of_Christ

Romans 8
28 ¶And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If you were given a chance to become like any person of your choice, who would that be?

Which great businessman, celebrity,  president, sportsman, world leader, etc. would you have chosen?

How is that choice compared to the perfect and glorious choice of God for you?

It seems that many Christians would hate the very thought that they have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ; They are ashamed of Christ and His hard sayings.  "No such Christians," some naive souls would retort.

Mark 8:38 KJV — Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

I can hear some scorn, "Oh, but surely Christ is speaking of unbelievers!" Pray tell, how could unbelievers be charged for being ashamed of Christ and his word?

 

Blatant Contradictions...

 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10201105942386177
December 5, 2013 

Blatant Contradictions...

Here is a popular statement loved by the reformed folks... and some PBs!

-- "Salvation is by God's grace (a gift). It is through faith (not of ourselves). "Plus works" is a blatant contradiction." --

... except for some obvious and deformed confusion!

1. Salvation is the gift, not God's grace. God's grace speaks of the manner in which He provided, and bestowed that salvation, i.e. freely without any condition whatsoever, and to ill-deserving recipients.

2. Salvation which is the gift of God is through faith.
- But this faith is popularly understood as man's act of believing. That's a very serious error!
- Salvation which is the gift of God is eternal salvation.
- Salvation which is through faith (man's act of believing) is temporal salvation.
- The popular notion mixes grace and work in the above popular shibboleth!!! NARY a reformed man understands the distinction between the two. But PBs should know better!!!
- So salvation by grace through faith (popularly understood as man's act of believing) is indeed a blatant contradiction!!!

3. The eternal salvation which is the gift of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ, i.e. "the fidelity, faithfulness, the character of one who can be relied on.
" https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4102/kjv/tr/0-1/

4. Faith, the act of believing, is a work of righteousness performed by a child of God, an elect ALREADY SAVED. Therefore, if that eternal salvation is through faith, then that salvation is indeed through a work of righteousness, therefore a blatant contradiction indeed!
- Yes, though saving faith is a grace worked in the heart by the indwelling Holy Spirit, it is the child of God who does the act of believing. It is his work, a work required by God! See John 6:28-29.

Amended statement:

-- "Salvation (the gift) is by God's grace (the manner the gift is provided, and bestowed). It is through faith (the fidelity) of Christ. "Through faith" (as popularly understood) is a blatant contradiction." --

Away with reformed sounding shibboleths defiled and polluted with blatant contradictions!

A gospel that is no gospel, it is no good news

A gospel that is no gospel, it is no good news.

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10215160832149637
December 4, 2019

A gospel that is no gospel, it is no good news.

I read this typical description of the gospel from the Protestant Reformation page: https://www.facebook.com/ReformedEvaneglical/posts/1807137505973758
(the post has since been deleted...)

What is the Gospel?
It's that Christ died for our sin and resurrected from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) this is what we are to proclaim over and over again to the believers and to the lost sinners. The Reformation recovered the Gospel, Rome taught that we are saved by faith in Christ but.. you need to go to mass, do good works etc... they taught a false gospel and still do today. Before we preach the Gospel there must be bad news, otherwise the Gospel or good news will not make sense. Here is the bad news we are born into sin (Psalm 51:5), we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), sin is transgression of God's Holy law (1 John 3:4), the just punishment for us sinners is hell (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). So here is the good news or the Gospel that God sent His Son (John 3:16) who is true God (1 John 5:20) and true man (1 Tim 2:5) on the cross He bore our sin (Isaiah 53:12) God crushed Him for our sin or iniquity (Isaiah 53:6,10), Christ was our substitute, He became sin for us, that we may become the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:21), something called double imputation happens, our sin to Christ and His righteousness imputed (credited) to us ( Rom 3:26, 4:6-8, 2 Cor 5:21, James 2:23)and on the third day He rose from the dead defeating death (1 Cor 15:55-58). So God commands you to repent of sin (Acts 17:30) and trust or believe in Christ for salvation (Acts15:11, 16:30). At the moment of regeneration ( being born from above) we are declared righteous and justified by faith alone because of Christ ( Romans 5:1, Gal 2:16, 3:24). Baptism is what follows after one repents and believes, since it's a sign and seal of our regeneration, forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38, 16:30-32)

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The gospel is the good news of what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to save His chosen people:

- He purposed their eternal salvation before the foundation of the world;
- Christ accomplished the same salvation for the exact same people through His righteousness and blood ;
- The Spirit of God and Christ applies that same salvation to each one of God's elect personally at God's appointed and approved time;
- The gospel ministry has been ordained for the calling out of those whom the Spirit of God has freely applied the eternal salvation when they were dead in trespasses and sins, calling them to believe the GOOD NEWS of what God HAS DONE for them in Christ Jesus and applied to them by the Spirit of God. Believing, they will experience the blessedness of their having been saved by God's free grace.
- Christ shall gloriously consummate the salvation of His redeemed people at His return at the end of the gospel age.

The above is the gospel, the good news of what the Triune God has freely and sovereignly done to save His people; His people are called to believe the good news of their salvation, Eph 1:13.

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Now let me make some comments on the above answer to the question "What is the gospel?"

1. @ "Rome taught that we are saved by faith in Christ but.. you need to go to mass, do good works etc... they taught a false gospel and still do today."

This necessarily implies that Rome's protestant daughters teach that they are saved by faith alone in Christ; they teach another gospel and still do today.

To be saved by faith alone in Christ is NO gospel at all. The reason is quite simple. Do you know why? To be saved by faith alone in Christ necessarily implies that the UNsaved is required to believe in Christ in order to be saved by Christ.

Pray tell, how is it good news to the UNsaved when he is required to perform the spiritual work of believing in Jesus Christ in order to be saved? Doctors of Divinity, tell us what is the spiritual state of the UNsaved? How is it good news to the dead who are required to eat in order to receive life?

The Harlot church was, and is wrong; justification before God is NEITHER by faith nor by works. Justification before God is freely by His grace (the manner of justification) through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (the basis of justification).

Faith in Jesus Christ evidences and manifests that justification that has taken place by the free grace of God.

Rome's protesting daughters hacked one of the TWO gangrenous legs off their Mother Harlot and hold dear to the other gangrenous limb.

2. @ "... Christ was our substitute, He became sin for us, that we may become the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:21), something called double imputation happens..."

Christ is the substitute of His people; He NOT ONLY lived in their stead a perfect and sinless life of obedience to all the laws of God BUT ALSO died in their stead the cursed death on the cross and suffered the full measure of the wrath of God for all the sins of all His people. Christ secured the righteousness necessary for the justification of His people and died the cursed death necessary for the forgiveness of His people.

It is BOTH righteousness and blood.

Double imputation took place on the cross; on the cross, all the sins of all those given to Him to redeem were imputed to Christ, and He endured and suffered the full measure of the holy wrath of God in the stead of His people; ALSO the righteousness of Christ was imputed to all those entrusted to Him by the Father to redeem.

Legal imputation logically and chronological precedes the vital application of the same to each elect personally.

Sin and condemnation were legally imputed to all represented by Adam in the fall; sin and condemnation are applied to each of Adam's descendants personally at their conception.

The righteousness of Christ is FREELY applied to an elect personally when he is still in the state of condemnation and death - "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:24. IT IS NOT by faith alone; the UNjustified is INCAPABLE of believing, being still in an UNjustified state of condemnation and death.

"By faith alone" is NOT good news; by God's free grace alone is good news!

3. @ "So God commands you to repent of sin (Acts 17:30) and trust or believe in Christ for salvation (Acts15:11, 16:30)."

How is "trust or believe in Christ for salvation" any good news for those still without salvation?

Pray tell, how are those without salvation capable of trusting or believing in Christ for salvation?

Doctors of divinity, what is your diagnosis of the spiritual state of those without salvation from God?

What spiritual acts could such perform in order to be saved; what could they do for salvation?

4. @ "At the moment of regeneration ( being born from above) we are declared righteous and justified by faith alone because of Christ."

Putting the cart before the horse is no good news, it is stupidity.

Regeneration is quickening the dead with eternal life. Sin brought condemnation and death; righteousness secures justification and life. The application of Christ's righteousness by God to an elect personally LOGICALLY precedes the Holy Spirit's activity of quickening the dead with eternal life.

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation [of death]; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The condemnation of death because of sin is contrasted with the justification of life because of righteousness. The application of Christ's righteousness to an elect personally is the basis and warrant for the bestowal of eternal life.

An elect is declared righteous and justified FREELY God's grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24); they ARE NOT declared righteous and justified by faith alone.

The UNrighteous and UNjustified are incapable of faith. Why are Rome's protesting daughters so blind to see a simple truth.

Except a man be born again, he cannot. And the justification of life freely by God's grace MUST PRECEDE the quickening of the dead by the Spirit of God.

Faith is the instrument, BOTH to EXPERIENCE and to EVIDENCE the prior justification by the free grace of God; EVEN SO, breath is evidence of the dead having been quickened.

May our gracious Lord grant each reader understanding of these things.
Amen