The Lamb's Book of Life and the Lake of Fire

“And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth,
neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie:
but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life”

The One and Only Basis of a man's Entry into Heaven, and his Deliverance from the Lake of Fire.

Take careful note; mark it well.

Everything else are just plain lies.

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“And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Rev 21:27).

This verse is about getting into heaven.

If you have ever done anything that was not holy ... anything that defiles ... any sin of any kind ... you are not getting in.

Can you understand the Holy Spirit’s words? ... in no wise ... will you get in. Do you understand the certainty of your rejection?

Have you ever told a lie? ... implied a lie? ... exaggerated a lie? ... you are not getting in ... it is that simple ... and it is final!

Sin has ruined you!

Adam’s sin in Eden ... your sins ... yesterday’s sins ... tomorrow’s sins.

Sin has ruined you!

Do you understand the damning consequences of sin?

Sin has ruined you!

You must go to hell ... you cannot be allowed in heaven ... for it is the holy presence of God.

But there is a glimmer of hope ... those found written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will get in!

What does the Book of Life mean? ... It is the list of all those God has elected to eternal life.

What does Lamb mean? ... It is the name of Jesus Christ used by John the Baptist to describe His sacrifice for sin.

John the Baptist declared ... Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Two thousand years ago a Man came to undo Adam’s sin and your sins ... so you can get into heaven.

You can know you will get into heaven by believing on Him and keeping His commandments for your life.

Hallelujah! ... What a Saviour! ... O Happy Day! ... Jesus took our sins away!

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Rev 20:15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The one and only basis of your deliverance from the lake of fire is that your name was found written in the Lamb's book of life. He ALONE did everything necessary to qualify you for heaven.

And the names were written from the foundation of the world, and not when you believe!

Rev 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

("from the foundation of the world" qualifies the word "written" and not slain. The latter is a popular fable.)
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Initially posted here: https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10206328358823324

The simplicity of our church premises

The assembly hall of Sungai Dua Church (the whole premises is only 50'x20' shop-lot) - it's simplicity is stark by any standard. There is no stage with its sophisticated lighting for performances, no drum-set or other sound-box for noise and entertainment, no advanced audio-visual system for amusement... sorry, we are primitive.

However, we have the pulpit for the preaching of God's word, a people who love singing the hymns of praise and hearing the word of God preached, and a table for the Lord's Supper. (The chairs are stacked away because the floor needed to be swept and mopped after the fellowship meal.)

"Wherefore brethren, covet to prophesy..... he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

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Initially posted here:https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10208982444973819

All we like sheep have gone astray...

A few observations:

1. Sheep are those whom God had chosen and gave to Christ.

John 6:39 KJV — And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

2. Gone astray: lost, separated from its Owner; sin has separated them from God; each has gone down his own way, even the way of death; man's way is the way of death; the wages of sin is death, being separated from God.

- Genesis 2:17 KJV — But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

- Pro 14:12 KJV - There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

3. Christ came to seek and to save the lost, His own people, those whom God has given to Him before the foundation of the world.

- Matthew 1:21 KJV — And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

4. The LORD laid on him: God freely imputed the sins of Christ's people on Christ, and He suffered the full curse in their stead. This happened at the cross, and not when you believe, the latter is a devil's lie.

- 2Co 5:21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

- His sinless life of perfect obedience to all the laws of God secured the righteousness needed for our justification; freely imputed to His sheep AT THE CROSS TOO, not when you believe; even so, Adam's sin was imputed to you in the garden of Eden.

- Rom 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Righteousness provided by God is through the faithfulness OF-OF-OF Christ, not your faith IN-IN-IN Christ; the latter is the devil's lie.
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Initially posted here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10213708635765635

Justification - the article of the standing or falling of the church

April 28, 2014

The article of justification is said to be the article of the standing or falling of the church. If that is true, how many churches are standing today?

The Old School Baptists stated their comprehensive understanding of justification in these succinct words:

1689.11. 4.

God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified PERSONALLY, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13) 11. Gal 3:8; 1Pe 1:2; 1Ti 2:6. 12. Ro 4:25. 13. Col 1:21-22; Tit 3:4-7.

[I highlighted the word 'personally']

With this paragraph the Old School Baptists PLAINLY declare the MULTIFACETED nature of the doctrine of justification - a grand truth that few churches know today!

a. There is the justification that is decreed. By this, all the elect are justified in the mind and purpose of God.

- This decretal justification is by God, and for all the elect, from all eternity

b. There is a justification that is secured and accomplished by Christ by His blood/righteousness/faithfulness. This is the legal justification for all the elect. His righteousness was legally IMPUTED to all the elect.

- This aspect of justification is plainly stated and elaborated in para. 3.

- This legal justification is by Christ's blood/righteousness/faithfulness alone, and involved every elect of God, and happened at the cross.

c. There is a justification that is applied to an elect personally by God's free grace when He effectually calls an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

- What was imputed legally is now APPLIED personally.

- This aspect of justification is stated and elaborated in para.1

- What was LEGAL is now PERSONAL.

- The application takes place at the effectual calling to grace and salvation through the activities of the Spirit of God.

So many are ignorant of the above aspects of justification.

d. There is a justification that is experienced through faith in Christ.

- BY faith in Christ a child of God experienced the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace of God. Believing evidences the justification that has taken place freely by the grace of God.

- It is those freely justified by God's grace alone who are able to believe.

- Those not justified by the free grace of God are still in their native state of death and condemnation, thus completely incapable of believing.

- This aspect of justification is experienced at initial conversion, and throughout life.

So many make this aspect the sum total of what they believe concerning justification - their justification before God by their faith in Christ. Sola fideism is a popular lie.

e. There is an aspect of justification which shall be vindicated finally

- by God before the judgment throne

- on the great judgment day

So, there are these manifold aspects in the doctrine of justification - decreed, accomplished, applied, experienced, and finally vindicated.

Your LEGAL justification by Christ blood/righteousness/faithfulness took place AT the cross, just as your LEGAL condemnation took place at the fall in the garden of Eden.

Your VITAL justification by God's grace took place AT your effectual calling to grace and salvation (while you were DEAD in trespasses and sins), just as your vital/personal condemnation took effect at your conception by your earthly father.

Your EVIDENTIAL/EXPERIENTIAL justification took place at your conversion through faith IN Jesus Christ, just as your experiential condemnation takes place at your acts of sin.

May our Lord open your eyes to see the truth of justification more COMPLETELY, and move from the popular protestant lie of faith only!

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Reformed shibboleths confuse, mislead, and deceive.

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Initially posted here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10201962658843553:0

Go to this link to read the numerous comments

Stop Regurgitating, Start learning by asking intelligent questions

Stop regurgitating from yesterday,
Start learning by asking intelligent questions. 

 

April 28, 2016, at 8:13 PM ·

There's a lengthy discussion on the sonship of Christ on a friend's page. I left this brief note on the subject… and a few others with the responses. For the full exchanges, go here. 

It's here: https://www.facebook.com/willjkinney/posts/10154152822878841

====================

Let me say a few words...

John 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

If these passages do not tell you that the Word and the Son are distinct, then nothing else will.

The Word is the ONE-natured divine Being.

The Son is the dual-natured Divine-human Being, the Word made flesh

It is as simple as that.

There was no son before the incarnation.

Before the Word was made flesh, there was NO son.

The son is brought about by that divine act of begetting the Son, i.e. making the eternal Word flesh. The Son has a beginning... Luke 1 is plain about it. The Word has no beginning.

And here is one sanctified COMMON SENSE point that so many want to ignore, or reject. Post-incarnation, all the works of the pre-incarnated eternal Word (second person of the Trinity before he was made flesh) are spoken of as done by the Son. Prejudice proves stronger than sanctified common sense.

Just like men use to say, "My wife went to that preschool..." and everyone understands what he meant. Strictly the little girl who went to that preschool was not his wife, but the little sweet daughter of her father.

So also the Scriptures attributes all the works of the eternal Word as that of the Son, the eternal Word made flesh. This is basic and elementary but hardly anyone cares!!!

I take my leave now.

p/s The important thing is not to stop questioning, how could the one-natured divine Being and the dual-natured divine-human Being be one and the same?

=======

Will Kinney

Hi Sing F Lau. Well, that's one "theory", but I believe you are flat out wrong. The SON is the one who created all things.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds - Hebrews 1:2.

Colossians 1:13-16

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of HIS DEAR SON:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For BY HIM (the Son) WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The Bible tells us that the Father sent the Son into the world. Jesus addresses God as his Father in John 17 and says that the Father loved him before the foundation of the world.

The Father did not create the Son at the time of the incarnation.

You are quite free to misunderstand the Bible. None of us has it all figured out yet.

But I know all about your theory and reasoning to explain away these verses, and I just happen to disagree with you on this.

Eric Brelsford
Will, All the psudo- christian cults present Jesus Christ in some unscriptural way making their Jesus not the one we know --We know the biblical Jesus.

The next thing I see in the cults is that they have some sinful motivation for changing doctrine. What is your guess as to why people would want to believe in the Incarnational Sonship doctrine?

Eric Brelsford
To all, Hebrews 13:8,9

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

We know that Jesus never changes, otherwise the doctrine and attribute of the immutability of God would by untrue.

Sing F Lau

Eric Brelsford, "Yesterday" is just that "yesterday", not that long ago. "Yesterday" obviously had a beginning. Jesus had a beginning, i.e. at the time when the eternal Word was made flesh. (not that long ago when the epistle to the Hebrews was penned!)

But you wish to read it as, "Jesus Christ the same ETERNALLY, and to day, and for ever."

You are free to do that BUT reading one's own idea into the word of God is contrary to rightly dividing the word of truth.

Will Kinney

Sing F Lau. Sir, do you believe, like Jehovah Witnesses do, that the Christ, or who Trinitarians (I am one) refer to as the second Person of the Trinity, had a beginning or an origin and that he is not the eternal God and Jehovah?

Yes or No? Just tell us plainly what you believe about this. Thanks.

Sing F Lau

The second Person of the Trinity is the Word, the eternally divine Word, John 1:1; the Word has no beginning. The Word is the one-natured eternal Divine Being.
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, has a beginning, i.e. when the eternal Word was made flesh, when Divinity took upon itself humanity. Jesus Christ is the dual-natured Divine-human Being.

It is a fundamental error to EQUATE the eternal Word, the one-natured Divine Being as the two-natured Divine-human Being. It is that elementary. Jesus, the Son of God, is the eternal Word made flesh, the only begotten of God. 

Sing F Lau

Hi Will, I know a little about your theory too, just a little; even though you know ALL about mine.

Put Heb 1:2 alongside John 1:1-3.

"All things were made by Him...." it is quite plain that the pronoun "him " refers back to the Word of God, not the Son as your theory presumes. There was a Son in the LAST DAYS when the eternal Word was made flesh in the last days. (the last days of the old covenant earthly theocratic kingdom of Israel.)

Col 1:13-16

Jesus is the firstborn of the Father. In your theory, Jesus was the firstborn in eternity, I presume. People do believe in the oxymoronic idea of the "eternally begotten" when the Scriptures speak of the event in time. They confused "divinely begotten" as "eternally begotten."

The Bible instructs us that the eternal Word was made flesh, resulting in the birth of Jesus Christ, who lived in obscurity for the next 30 years. Then with a big bang, God sent Him unto the world, publicly thundering from heaven, owning Jesus Christ as "This is my beloved Son, in whom I'm well pleased.

The Son was first begotten and later sent. The Word was made flesh first, and then we beheld His glory, even the glory as of the only begotten Son of God WHEN He was made manifest to Israel, John 1:31. That's basic and elementary. The begetting of the Son and the sending of the begotten Son are two distinct Divine activities.

"The Father did not create the Son at the time of the incarnation."

I agree with that statement. The Son is the eternal Word made flesh, the Son is NOT created!

The Son was begotten at the time the Word was made flesh unless your theory said the Word was made flesh in eternity!

Read John 1:14 again.

No, nothing I said will likely change your mind. I was where you are.

Eric Brelsford

Sing F Lau, what is the benefit of this your doctrine that Jesus lacks the immutability of God his Father? This would make him not God, btw. Is your Incarnational sonship doctrine orthodox and if so does that make ours unorthodox, in your eyes?

Sing F Lau

Hi Eric, a whole lot of what was considered orthodox by the religious establishment during the days of Christ were denounced by Christ Himself. What is most orthodox by men may be condemned by the Scriptures.

If the Word of God is God, how could the Word of God made flesh be one iota less divine? Your objection is a fable invented by your own imagination.

Eric Brelsford

Wow, there is a lot of logical wire-crossing in this debate. I was claiming that in YOUR doctrine, "Jesus lacks the immutability of God" --for (in your teaching) A title that he never had was being added to him, namely, Son of God.

Then you answer by asking, "how could the Word of God made flesh be one iota less divine?" like it was ME who was believing, he was, "one iota less divine." I was NOT.

By the way, when I say orthodox belief or scriptural doctrines I mean that these two are synonymous. I'm a biblicist, Therefore, if any group in the past was unscriptural in their doctrine, then they were, perforce, unorthodox. I was not using traditional or orthodox "Church" teachings of Christendom to sure up my argument, like you PRESUMED. That was really sloppy of you, sir.

Again, I ask: What is the benefit of this your doctrine that Jesus was not the Son of the Father for eternity past?

Sing F Lau

Eric, you asked, "what is the benefit of this your doctrine that Jesus lacks the immutability of God his Father?"

============

First, you say incarnational sonship teaches that Jesus lacks the immutability of God. Do I get you right? If I do get you right, then that is just your puerile imagination. Jesus, the divine Word made flesh, is no less divinely immutable that the eternally divine Word

So what is the benefit of that imagination is a moot question.

Next, you may even think that your two questions are the same.

The first time you asked: "what is the benefit of this your doctrine that Jesus lacks the immutability of God his Father?"

Then you repeat your question in these words:

AGAIN, I ask: What is the benefit of this your doctrine that Jesus was not the Son of the Father for eternity past?

You pretend as though the second is the repeat of the first. Immutability and eternity past are distinct matters.

As the former, I have no answer for you because it involves a figment of your own imagination.

For the latter I could venture an answer:

1. The chief and foremost benefit are these:

it rightly represents the teaching of Scriptures. There was no Son until the eternal Word was made flesh in time. The Son was begotten when the eternal Word was made flesh. It is stated plainly in John1:1ff

2. It gives biblical attention to the greatest event in the redemptive history, the giving of the Son when the eternal Word was made flesh for the work of redemption.

- God took upon himself humanity in time.

- There was NO god-man in eternity. There was God-man at a very specific point in time.

3. It saves men from horrid lies and confusion of an "eternally begotten" Son of God, begetting of any sort takes place in time. To be saved from lies and fiction is a great benefit... it set us free from bondage to tradition.

Michael Lloyd Merichko
Blasphemous doctrine! All who deny the Deity of Messiah are damned by His own words!!

Peter Petersen

Incarnate Sonship doesn't deny the unbegotten divine nature of Jesus Christ.

[[Amen, and amen. The unbegotten divine nature is from the eternal Word who was made flesh. sing]

Sing F Lau

Michael, if you think the doctrine of incarnational sonship denies the deity of Christ Jesus the Messiah, then you are imagining things. When a Divine being takes upon Himself humanity, how is His divinity diminished in any way?

It is better to inquire till you understand instead of being so eager to burn strawman.

Peter Petersen

We read in Galatians, But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,...

So, before the fulness of time was come, how was the Son made?

Michael Lloyd Merichko

He CREATED all things. You need to repent perish

Peter Petersen

Are you sure it wasn't the Word?

Michael Lloyd Merichko

Yahushua is the Word sir

Micah 5:2 “But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Peter Petersen
Agreed. In his unbegotten divine nature that is.

Sing F Lau

Eric, who said Jesus lacks the immutability of God His Father. Kindly explain.

My late dad taught me one thing, "Son, if you can' t represent your opponent's view accurately, you have not earned the right to dispute. It is wise to inquire until you fully understand." Then, and only then, dispute.

I commend Mr. Will in that he knows ALL about my view. ;-)

Yesterday is not about immutability. You assume so. 

I affirm the immutability of Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God.

Wrong tree bark not at!

"Hearing they hear not..."

"Hearing they hear not..."

"Hearing they hear not..."

- Soundbytitis is a disease that afflicts many Christians.

Here is one common example.

A brother said,

"I would offer that the Bible teaches that humankind in general, without distinction into categories of elect or non-elect, has the moral obligation to respond to the gospel call, not only the elect. As the scriptures say "many are called, but few are chosen".

Here are the two passages where that phrase is referenced:

Mat 20:16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Both are found in the context of the parables of the kingdom of heaven. (see 20:1 and 22:1). Parables of the kingdom of heaven reveal something about the kingdom of heaven; they are not how those outside the kingdom must do in order to get INTO the kingdom. That idea is a popular fable, a gross misunderstanding of the parables.

The parable in Mt 20:1-16 was told in response to the Apostles' oblique complaint, "... we have forsaken all... blah blah blah... what shall we have therefore?" Christ told the parable to remind them of their unique honour as the Apostles of Christ.

Here, it is many are called to serve and labour in the Lord's vineyard, few are chosen to be the Apostles. In the parable, the Lord rebukes them, "It is enough that you are the few chosen ones among the many; you are apostles. It is a unique honour bestowed upon a few chosen for such honour.

The second parable tells us that many of God's children among the Jews were called by the gospel ministry, only a few are chosen to enjoy its blessings. The rest were blinded. (Remember, those dead in trespasses and sins need no blinding; they are blind enough! - that's common sense.)

Read John 12:37-41; Rom 11:5-8

John 12:40

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Mat 13:13

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

He also freely give us ALL THINGS - what are they?

Ro 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son,
but delivered him up for us all,
how shall he not with him
also freely give us ALL THINGS?"

Taken from here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201953362411148

He freely gives us ALL THINGS - what are they?

As you ponder over that question, don't forget the adverb "freely"!

Joh 19:28 "After this, Jesus knowing that ALL THINGS were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst."

Ro 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us ALL THINGS?"

ALL THINGS accomplished by Jesus Christ for His people are also the ALL THINGS given FREELY to each of God's elect personally - no more and no less. They are co-extensive.

'ALL THINGS' must be defined by the Scriptures itself. Scriptures is its own interpreter.

"ALL THINGS" that were accomplished by Jesus Christ for His people are the same as ALL THINGS freely given to His people. Not a single thing that Jesus Christ accomplished for His people shall be withheld from anyone of God's elect.

If this be the case, then many things that people IMAGINE to be among the "ALL THINGS" are just figments of their own imaginations.

For example, the perseverance of the saints in a life of faith and obedience to the end of their lives - is this among the "ALL THINGS" that Christ accomplished for His people? If it is, then every elect will manifest this thing in their life. However, this is obviously not true. There are God's children who do not even have the capability to hear and be converted... and there are others who do not have the opportunity to hear the gospel and be converted. How then can these persevere in a life of faith and obedience???

However, the biblical truth of perseverance of the saints this: everyone for whom Christ accomplished their salvation shall remain in the STATE OF GRACE. Jesus Christ did accomplish this STATE OF GRACE for every elect who were by nature in the STATE OF CONDEMNATION. Each elect is brought into the STATE OF GRACE, without a single exception, and forever remains in it, because Christ accomplished it for each and every one of the elect.

But to remain in a life of faith and obedience is a BIG THING THAT a child of God must WORK OUT for himself with fear and trembling, through the grace of God working in them. It is not a thing given to him FREELY

Christ did not accomplish that for them, nor does the Father give it to them.

They must WORK OUT for themselves.

===============

The following exchanges took place:

Honored By God
I agree. However, the verse that follows working our salvation says, "for it is God who worketh both to will and to do." By that I hold the view, that even though we must work out good works with our sanctification life, it is God who does the work in us to both to will and to do. Any thoughts?

Mark Thomas
He worked it in, we work it out. Simple enough. Otherwise, we are simply automatons.

Sing F Lau
Romans 8:28 And we know that ALL THINGS work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Charles Page
Doesn't all things given include this promise to the regenerate: "whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." I John 3:9

The elect regenerate have the certainty of this promise, not a command to be obeyed but the reality of being born again! correct?

Sing F Lau
I see 1John 3:9 as a declarative statement of truth, and not a something promised. Please explain your question.

Charles Page
My error, I meant declaration of truth rather than merely a promise! declarative statement of truth

When Calvinists ask, "Are Arminian believers saved?'...

When Calvinists ask, "Are Arminian believers saved?"

I often hear some Calvinists ask this question, rhetorically, 'Are Arminian believers saved?' What do you think of folks who ask such a question?

When Calvinists ask, "Are Arminian believers saved?"- what does that question reveal what the Calvinists believe how they themselves are saved?
=========

The following exchanges took place:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3402210769524

Charles Page

they're stupid!

Matthew Pasalic
I know of some Calvinists who believe that only Calvinists are genuine believers. Others would claim differently. It really would depend upon the Arminian believer. I do believe that Calvinism is synonymous with basic Bible-believing Christianity.

Charles Page
Are hypo-Calvinist saved? Can John MacArthur get regenerated under his belief system?

Matthew Pasalic
Maybe not stupid, but legalistic.

Sing F Lau
Wherein lies their stupidity, Charles Page?

Wherein lies their legalism, Matthew Pasalic?

Please explain... I am all ears!

Matthew Pasalic
There are Arminians who believe in the essential doctrines of the faith. The issue as to how they arrived at the point of salvation is what is under debate. They contend that they came to Christ by their own free will. Yet, wouldn't they believe that God gave them that very free will in which to accept Him?

There are, in my view, four different types of folks in the world. There are those who are not saved and they know that they lack salvation. There are those who are saved and they truly know that they are. There are those who believe that they are saved and yet they are not. And there are those who may in fact be saved and yet not have the knowledge or understanding. Of course, when it all comes down to it, there are only two types...the saved and the lost.

Stephen Green
We all start off Arminian and after study of scripture you end up Calvinist. You will know them by their fruits. As a Calvinistic believer, I'd rather fellowship with an Arminian on fire for God than a dead Calvinist. I have noticed how Arminians have a real hatred for Calvinistic teaching when it comes to the salvation of All men they fall down on God's sovereignty in saving His people from their sins. Yet if you were to preach a Calvinistic sermon to a group of Arminians They'll shout Amen. As Spurgeon did. Mathew makes a good point.

Matthew Pasalic
The Calvinist evangelist George Whitfield had much respect for the Wesley brothers. The Wesleys were very Arminian, but Christians.

Sing F Lau

No one has to start off an Arminian. A man is an Arminian through and through by nature... one who believes his salvation is a synergistic effort by himself with god's help!

That characteristic is at the core of every religion invented by man... the same when they corrupt the religion revealed by God!

It was Wesley who said to Whitefield, 'Your God is my devil.'

I'm neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist. I'm an old school baptist.

Stephen Green

In our own eyes and belief at the time God saves us and when we have been regenerated by the spirit our sinful nature wants to take credit for this because we ­know no better After study of scripture we come to the knowledge that salvation is all of the Lord and none of us .That's what I mean by we all start off Arminian

Sing F Lau

Well, I WAS a RB Calvinist for nearly 20 years... found that it has too much contradictions and deficiencies within it.

Calvinism fails to rightly divide the word of truth with regard to eternal salvation and temporal salvation, thus ending up with synergism in its understanding of eternal salvation... promoting gospel regeneration, sola fideism, etc.

Calvinism fails to recognize the multifaceted nature of salvation, nor distinguish the distinct aspects of it.... thus confounding grace with works...

Sing F Lau

Calvinists rave and rant all day that salvation is all of the Lord and none of us... and yet they insist that there must be preaching otherwise there would be no regeneration... and yet they insist that they are justified by God conditioned upon their work of believing!

Calvinists are no more consistent that the Arminians they despised!

Stephen Green

I would have to disagree. Calvinism leads to monergism, which is a God-centered salvation. Whereas Arminianism leads to synergism being man centred I believe Calvinism gives God all the glory

I don't despise Armenians I've found its the other way around

Sing F Lau

The truth is, Calvinism is HALF-BAKED monergism... just like Arminianism's synergism. It is obvious to all who have eyes to see!

Calvinists despise the Arminians... they just dismiss the Arminians as their intellectual inferiors... as brainless inconsistent dummies. They may even question the salvation of those Arminian believers. Calvinists themselves are not that consistent... I have met and interacted with many... and when they cannot reconcile their inconsistencies, they just dismiss me as a heretic!

Robert Beavan

The root of Salvation, which is Christ has been dismissed in this debate. The Abrahamic Covenant, of Works in the Old Testament and of Grace in the New Testament has also been unmentioned. Who did Christ come to Save? His people.

Romans 11 v 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew." we know these people are the 'whosoever', mentioned in Romans Chapter 10. Maybe we think are they just Jewish? We see in Galatians that if they be Christ's then they are of the Covenant. "Chapter 3 v 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." How then do these people enter into the Covenant of Grace by Faith in Jesus Christ Alone,

"Romans 4 v 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

This is our Covenant together my beloved, we are his seed, and how are we chosen "Ephesians 2 v 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Amen.

Jane Yue 

I would like to learn more. Can you please tell me the differences between a Calvinist and Arminian? Are the views of Calvinist, view of Arminian and the will of God align His will with God's will? Thanks!

Robert Beavan 

Hi Jane Yue, check this out, http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip

More study, https://www.learnreligions.com/calvinism-vs-arminianism-700526

God’s Sovereignty
Calvinism - God's sovereignty is unconditional, unlimited, and absolute. All things are predetermined by the good pleasure of God's will. God foreknew because of his own planning.

Arminianism - God has limited his control in correspondence with man's freedom and response. God's decrees are associated with his foreknowledge of man's response.

Man's Depravity

Calvinism - Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation.

Arminianism - Because of the Fall, man has inherited a corrupted, depraved nature. Through "prevenient grace," God removed the guilt of Adam's sin. Prevenient grace is defined as the preparatory work of the Holy Spirit, given to all, enabling a person to respond to God's call of salvation.

Election
Calvinism - Before the foundation of the world, God unconditionally chose some to be saved. Election has nothing to do with man's future response.

Arminianism - Election is based on God's foreknowledge of those who would believe in him through faith. In other words, God elected those who would choose him of their own free will. Conditional election is based on man's response.

Christ's Atonement

Calvinism - Jesus Christ died to save only those who were given to him (elected) by the Father in eternity past. Since Christ did not die for everyone, but only for the elect, his atonement is wholly successful.

Arminianism - Christ died for everyone. The Savior's atoning death provided the means of salvation for the entire human race. Christ's atonement, however, is effective only for those who believe.

Grace

Irresistible Grace

Calvinism - While God extends his common grace to all mankind, it is not sufficient to save anyone. Only God's irresistible grace can draw the elect to salvation and make a person willing to respond. This grace cannot be obstructed or resisted.

Arminianism - Through the preparatory (prevenient) grace given to all by the Holy Spirit, man is able to cooperate with God and respond in faith to salvation. Through prevenient grace, God removed the effects of Adam's sin. Because of "free will" men are also able to resist God's grace.

Man's Will

Calvinism - All men are totally depraved, and this depravity extends to the entire person, including the will. Except for God's irresistible grace, men are entirely incapable of responding to God on their own.

Arminianism - Because prevenient grace is given to all men by the Holy Spirit, and this grace extends to the entire person, all people have free will.

Perseverance

Calvinism - Believers will persevere in salvation because God will see to it that none will be lost. Believers are secure in the faith because God will finish the work he began.

Arminianism - By the exercise of free will, believers can turn away or fall away from grace and lose their salvation.

It's important to note that all of the doctrinal points in both theological positions have a biblical foundation, which is why the debate has been so divisive throughout church history.

Christian denominations disagree over which points are correct, rejecting all or some of either system of theology, leaving most believers with a mixed perspective. Because both Calvinism and Arminianism deal with concepts that go far beyond human comprehension, the debate is certain to continue as finite beings try to explain an infinitely mysterious God.

Stephen Green

Just one thing Robert surely the covenant of works was between God and Adam and Eve after the fall God made a new covenant one of grace knowing that no man could ever keep his side of the covenant due to sin and the depraved nature that man now inherit ed through Adam

Charles Page

Sing, the Calvinist of all people know better than assume that Arminians are saved by confession or profession. The questions assumes that the Arminians make a false profession of believer's faith and so are not saved.

They of all people should follow their own tenets of Calvinism and understand the Biblical process. They fall from the same tree as their Arminian cousins.

Sing F Lau

Robert Connolly Beavan @ The root of Salvation, which is Christ has been dismissed in this debate. The Abrahamic Covenant, of Works in the Old Testament and of Grace in the New Testament has also been unmentioned.

===========

Who has dismissed Christ? And why do we need to mention those things?

You went blah blah blah a whole lots of things and said nothing about the question: "Are Arminian believers saved?"

The question is NOT NOT NOT 'what is Calvinism?'

Keep to the subject, please.

Thanks.

Sing F Lau
Robert Connolly Beavan @ Calvinism - Believers will persevere in salvation because God will see to it that none will be lost. Believers are secure in the faith because God will finish the work he began.

========

What does it mean - 'believers will persevere in salvation'? Kindly explain.

Sing F Lau

Robert Connolly Beavan, in your first comment, you quoted Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

============

By grace are ye saved through faith...

My simple question to you: through WHOSE faith?

Both Calvinists and the Arminians insist it is THROUGH their faith in Jesus Christ.

What about you?

Sing F Lau

When Calvinists ask, "Are Arminian believers saved' - what does that question reveal what the Calvinists believe and how they themselves are saved?

Jane Yue

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" - 2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJB)

Before Calvinists asked the question, "Are Arminian believers saved," they should first "examine" themselves if the faith is from God, or from themselves, and if their question is from themselves, or from the Holy Ghost.

Whose faith? Faith comes from the LORD! "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Romans 10: 17 (KJB). The LORD saved us through faith in Him.

Robert Beavan

Sing F Lau my point was that Abraham is the Father of the Faithful whether Arminian or Calvinist in doctrine. Imputed Faith, not mine, a Gift of God to me. It is by this Faith we enter into the Covenant of Grace or adopted into. Chosen, elected to be convinced by the Gospel. Faith comes by hearing the word which is His Holy Spirit's convincer, among other things. Is an Arminian dead in trespasses and sins, NO, their doctrine is misinterpreted, they merely haven't been enlightened to this area of Saving Faith, or some aren't able to understand it. The Elect are all Calvinist.

Robert Beavan

Stephen Green, though yes the Law of Moses, the ten commandments given by our Heavenly Father were not ascribed to the Philistines, they were relevant. In the earlier days God used men such as Noah, still mankind was judged and drown in the flood. Remember Stephen how Noah and his family were Saved. Yet, this people I speak of come from a disobedient generation and Jacob being Israel still was in the Covenant of Works which could be and was broken, no man could keep it. When Jesus Christ died for our Sins, the Covenant of Grace was established because the Covenant of Works had been replaced. Titus 3 v 5. The Law was fulfilled, the once and for all penalty paid for. Adam brought death on all of us, by One Christ we all are made free. The Abrahamic Covenant runs parallel to the two Covenants of Works and Grace, for the Faithful lived in the Old Testament and in the New. Gal 3 v 29. Yet even before Abraham's promise from our Heavenly Father, our God saw pleasure in receiving Able's Offering and refusing Kane's. God loved us in that He gave His Son to die for us, the Elect, Abraham's Seed, the Bride of Christ, the dead in trespasses and sins because of Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden and now the Eternally Secure because of Christ's death and resurrection. God is Sovereign, God's Will always prevails over man's. Amen.

Sing F Lau

Robert Connolly Beavan @ "The Elect are all Calvinist."

======

Major premise: The Elect are all Calvinist.

Minor premise: The Arminians are not Calvinist.

Conclusion: There are no elect among the Arminians.

Thanks. That's quite typical view of logical Calvinists

Sing F Lau 

Robert Connolly Beavan,

You believe in 'imputed faith'?

What's that? Where do you find such fable?

Robert Beavan

If you read the Bible quotations I placed on your post you'll understand. Here goes, I'll quote it differently. Romans 4 v 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." this is how Faith is imputed for it was not by the law. The Covenant of Grace is entered into by Faith in Jesus Christ, which is a Gift of the Holy Spirit. So too those whom God counted Righteous because of imputed Faith under the law in the Covenant of Works.

Sing F Lau

Do you find the imputation of faith here?

Whose faith imputed to who?

And you entered the covenant of grace by your faith in Jesus Christ? Really?

Unless God HAS FIRST put you into the covenant of grace, will you be able to believe?

Robert Beavan

Remember Faith comes by hearing the Word. Without the Word, God can still bring His Faithful seed to a place where they will hear the Gospel message and find His Word to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour. To say someone accidentally walked into a mission tent, heard the Gospel and got Saved without any participation in these circumstances from God our Father, is hokem, folly and devoid of Providential reality.
[Mr Beavan is a hardcore gospel-regenerationist!]

Robert Beavan
How many Gentiles were in the Covenant of Works? But, now, many Gentiles are in the Covenant of Grace. What? Do you say then that Gentiles are not truly of Abraham's Faithful seed, HELLO what's this Sing F Lau?
Galatians 3 v . 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Robert Beavan
How many Arminians believe they were numbered in the stars in Heaven, before Abraham eyes, as God our Father promised us, brother? Many will, yet if you say that they had no choice in this Faithful promise, and we're predestination stars, already foreknew. They just can't accept it, those who do then grasp Election and hence Calvinism leads to Monergism.

Sing F Lau 

Let me ask you a very simple question... and answer it please... don't drift around.

Since faith comes by hearing, in what kind of people can the preaching of the gospel brings/draw forth faith?

Those ALREADY effectually called to grace and salvation, or those still dead in trespasses and sins? Or is there a third group you want to suggest?

Robert Beavan
Before Pentecost John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit within his mother's womb. Was he born into Sin? Was he dead in trespasses and sins? ANSWER, He was quickened within His mother's womb. Saved therein. What about the dying thief on the cross? Was he dead in trespasses and sins before being effectually Saved by Faith in Christ Alone?

Robert Beavan

The Flesh decides does it? Or does our Heavenly Father quicken those who are dead in trespassess and sins because of Adam's disobedience in the Garden unto Eternal Life through Jesus Christ as promised to Abraham, we being Gentile. Imputed Righteousness as Faith in Jesus Christ which is a Gift of the Holy Spirit.

Sing F Lau
'Effectually saved by faith in Christ alone'?

What gibberish are you foaming?

I am getting weary of all the meaningless shibboleths.

Faith in Christ is an effect of salvation ALREADY freely bestowed upon a man dead in trespasses and sin.

How on earth can an effect of salvation be the means of the same salvation.

Unless you can speak some sense... you would do well to hold your peace!!!

Robert Beavan

22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Robert Beavan
How is Spiritual Warfare possible when you disqualify the flesh? You need to read more on Eternal Security? By your thinking the Apostle Peter was not a disciple because how could he deny Jesus three times, which he was forewarned of. Surely he wouldn't have, if his knowledge were enough to Save him.

Robert Beavan 

You actually believe without evidence God's people are randomly choosing to believe or leave Him. I'm afraid your unscriptural approach to God's Sovereignty leaves me astounded.

Sing F Lau
Robert, I fear you know next to NOTHING what I actually believe... and you just go blah blah blah. I am surprised.

Stop raving, slow down a bit, think a lot, then comment again...

Take a look here:

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html  Things New and Old: Saved by grace through faith – whose faith?

Sing F Lau

Robert Connolly Beavan, let me spell it out clearly for you.

A man is first saved by God... this salvation by God's free grace gives him the ability to know spiritual things. God already saved him when he knew NOTHING... when he was incapable of knowing nor discerning anything of the Spirit of God...

One's eternal salvation is wholly and solely by God's free grace, not conditioned upon any degree of the knowledge of the truth.

The Calvinists doubt the Arminian believers are saved because of their woefully deficient knowledge of the truth.

The same 'sword' will ALSO slice the Calvinists to shreds... because in some very important doctrines, the Calvinists do not differ from their cousins Arminians.

Robin Walenceus

I think they expect the discernment and wisdom of man to be greater than it is.

Robert Beavan

Sing F Lau for your intellectual ability to read clear proof of God's Sovereignty as your quote, 'blah blah blah', is like something from a comedy show of your own making. How can the Westminster Confession of Faith and other Confessions based on the Five Points of Calvinism be torn to shreds by the Bible which supports them? Your poor understanding of Biblical truth would only be able to support any argument between these two doctrines. The Bible clearly supports the Calvinist doctrine. Maybe you as a Christian don't know whose Word you've and what Faith came from who, but your diatribe pseudo nonsense has no weight against Scripture.

Robert Beavan

Please act like a teacher of the Word that your Faith came from and stop saying, 'blah blah blah' to my comments. If I were you I'd study a real Baptist Minister called John Gill. Get with program light weight. God Bless.

Robert Beavan

Finally, the Particular Baptists would shun you as a heretic, for your lack of conviction or support for the doctrine of Calvinism, yet you claim to be old school Baptist, you may be a saved brother but your idea or concept of Salvation draws one into doctrinal confusion.

Sing F Lau

Robert Connolly Beavan, just what do you know about the WCF. I have proven to many that present-day Calvinism is NEW SCHOOL Calvinism, and has departed from the Calvinism of the WCF...

Robert Beavan

I may have thought God's Sovereignty was more important than a doctrine, don't you?

[p/s You are an idiot. The question is not “Is God’s Sovereignty more important than a doctrine. The question is - When Calvinists ask, "Are Arminian believers saved?",- what does that question reveal what do the Calvinists believe how they themselves are saved?

You went blah blah blah defending Calvinism from the start!

Robert Cook Sr.

This is a good discussion I pray it bears fruit, I do believe that there is a limit to what regenerated child of grace will believe, based on Mathew 24:24 and Rev 13:8 but how far that goes I do not know except that they will not love their sin.

Sing F Lau

Robert C Beavan has been shown the door. He accused me of removing his comments... and insist so despite the fact that they are ALL STILL here. I believe he looked in the wrong place.