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The gospel comes to
those that:
- are saved or
- are being saved?
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#Are_Saved
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#Are_Saved
#Being_Saved
#Big_Theological_Divide
No mere semantic!
There is a good reason for this command from
the Apostle Paul to all NT pastors and teachers"
2Ti 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved
unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word
of truth."
".. are saved" speaks of the state
of having been saved by the completed divine action PRIOR TO and INDEPENDENT of
the activities of preachers, the activity which explains the response of them
that are saved, that is, they hear and perceive the gospel as declaring the
power of God in salvation BECAUSE they have been saved.
"...are being saved" speaks of the INCLUSION of man's activity of preaching in the salvation spoken of; which is seen as a PROCESS that involves the activities of men!
The gospel preaching comes to those that ARE
SAVED
We ARE SAVED by God: we are BEING SAVED by
the gospel ministry.
Men bent on synergism are acting so subtly to
undermine and destroy the plain, pure, pristine grace alone. Many rave and rant
about monergism, but they are really synergistic in their doctrine of salvation!
=======
The following exchanges took place
Ted Floyd
Is it a participle or a past completed action or is it aroist action of past with continuing consequences and results?
Is it a participle or a past completed action or is it aroist action of past with continuing consequences and results?
Only real Greek Scholars need reply. If you
are a " KJV Only" scholar who thinks King James English IS the
original as handed down to the inspired writers, back to sleep.
My non-scholarly comment as a regular user of KJV for study and worship:
Ain't none being saved that isn't saved and
shall be saved and they are all the very same folks.
We know from Rom 1 that the gospel is the power that God uses unto salvation to every (single) one who believes, whether Jew or Greek. Rom 1:16. He that believes and is baptized Shall Be (sounds future in King James English) saved, but he that believeth not Shall Be damned . Mark 16:15-16.
I say not that the "shall be saved"
ones are other than the ones than the " Christ done did saved ones "that
were chosen in Him and for only they were died for and in Him in His death and
resurrection positionally.
The power of God in the gospel Unto salvation
is it's power administered by the sovereign Spirit's direction for the elect (
and already saved ones and those elect saved ones who have been regenerated and
given faith and repentance) to " become the sons of God"---manifestly
to themselves and the world. This conversion, as it becomes into conscious
experience can certainly be understood as " being saved" as can the
fact that the indwelling Spirit of the saved ( in Christ and by double
imputation in the finished work of Christ ) and the" being saved" in
conversion continue to save them and keep them saved in their struggle with
world-system, remaining sin nature flesh, and the devil--- being saved in
their walk and conduct. And these very same ones Shall Be saved in redemption (resurrection)
of the body and its glorification and future presence with the Lord.
Another take away to be gathered from the
scriptures given: Those who don't believe when God has the gospel preached to
them of Christ according to the scriptures and can persist in unbelief ( not
having been regenerated) were not " saved", not " being
saved", and " shall not be saved".
Those who know not God and Jesus Christ (with
love because God first loved Them who are brought to know Him) do not possess
eternal life. John 17:1-3.
Those who are " in Christ " having
been saved and being saved" and for which there is no condemnation, walk
not after the flesh but after the Spirit ( Rom 8:1 ff).
Alan Lloyd
KJV is wrong.
KJV is wrong.
Stephen Woolverton
I am very glad to see another who wrestles
with Scripture. I prefer to go to the Greek (not KJV or NIV) as my source when
studying specific words or phrases for the exact word. In Greek, the word used
in 1 Corinth 1:18 is "sozamenois". The root of this word
"sozo" means "to save, rescue, heal". Sozamenois is
conjugated to mean, specifically, "being saved". In fact, the
majority of the uses of this word in the NT at about being saved from the power
of sin (according to Mounce).
Sing F Lau
Why must "sozamenois" be conjugated
to specifically mean "being saved"? Give me one reason.
It is parsed as a present passive participle,
expressing the present state of the people- those that ARE SAVED, or those that
have been saved, i.e. already in the saved condition.
At the heart of the problem is the ignorance
of the distinction between the once-for-all- unrepeatable monergistic eternal
salvation, thus "are saved", and the ongoing synergistic temporal
salvation, thus "are being saved."
The KJV translators KNEW the distinction
between the two, and they understood what is meant in 1Cor 1:18, and translated it
correctly.
To those that are saved - already called out
of their native state of sin and death to that of course grace and eternal
salvation - the gospel, the good news of what God has done to save sinners, is
perceived and understood as a message declaring the power of God to save. To
all others, the same message is perceived as foolishness.
It is as simple as that. A prejudiced mind
makes it difficult.
Sing F Lau
"which are saved..." δὲ σῳζομένοις
Root: σῴζω sōzō
Tense: Present
Voice: Passive
Mood: Participle
I'm no Greek scholar. I can't even handle
English well enough.
"δὲ σῳζομένοις" - in my understanding, being a
present passive participle (I trust some cheapskate greek students' assessment)
- is simply "the saved ones", God being the active agent.
I leave it to the REAL scholars to decide who
are the Real Greek scholars.
To the saved ones (by the free and sovereign
acts of God) the gospel (the good news) is perceived as the message which
declares the power of God in saving poor helpless sinners.
The gospel is the message; it has no power to
save. The gospel is the good news that declares the power of God in saving
sinners in their native state of sin and condemnation.
Ted Floyd
Amen. Sing
Manifesting the saved is different from
individuals being sovereignly saved from beginning to end and all in between
by the work of Christ alone, no works of any sort to complete the work. Works
may manifest His working in us. The manifestation as sons of God always comes
after regeneration but, I believe, most often immediately following
regeneration to different ages of the elect
Sing F Lau
I trembled at Alan's magisterial pronouncement!
I trembled at Alan's magisterial pronouncement!
Vaughan Willis
I am not a Gk scholar and trust in Vines et
al. But I have no problem with the NIV translation as I understand it. I have
always been taught that salvation is totally and completely the work of God
(grace) but the ongoing work of sanctification, whilst also the work of God,
requires cooperation - so we are completely saved but the work of grace
continues. Philippians 2:12-13 has always been linked to verses like these.
What I am when I am saved is not what I should be at the end before I die;
however, if I believe on my deathbed, the work is complete and no more needs to
be added. I've tried to be succinct and hope I've made sense.
Sing F Lau
NIV's translation betrays a SERIOUS problem because it fails to distinguish the salvation that is ALREADY FINISHED, and the salvation that is ongoing; that which is SAVED, and that which is BEING SAVED!
It CONFUSES the monergistic eternal salvation
by the sole and sovereign activities of God and the synergistic temporal
salvation through the obedient responses of those that are saved.
The salvation that is already finished is the
eternal salvation - by the free and sovereign acts of the Triune God alone.
That is the salvation spoken of in 1Cor 1:18.
The salvation that is ongoing, like you have
said, is the work of sanctification, through the obedience, of them that are
SAVED, to the gospel ministry. It is a salvation that THE SAVED must work out
for themselves with fear and trembling - that is ongoing.
Stephen Woolverton
I don't think that is what is being said
here. Like you said earlier, the Greek verb is used in the present passive tense.
(Note: I have studied Greek, I am seminary educated, and I teach grammar &
sentence structure) So, as I read it, Paul is speaking about how the Gospel is
received by two different types of persons at the moment when they are hearing
it.
The beginning of this verse starts with
"for," which can also be understood as "because." As such,
this verse relates to what Paul was speaking about directly preceding, which
is a division in the body of Christ, citing specifically, the preaching of the
Gospel.
With that understanding, Paul is here
explaining that, people hear the preaching of the Gospel in one of two ways.
Those who are perishing (present passive) hear the Gospel, and, at that moment
(present tense), consider it to be foolishness. Those who are (being) saved
(present passive) hear the Gospel, and, at that moment (present), consider it
to be the power of God.
I understand this scripture in the same
manner as you, this salvation being spoken of here is that of the moment when
one accepts the saving grace of Christ on the cross. As such, at that moment,
those who accept "the preaching of the cross," are, right then, being
saved. The moment after realizing "the power of God," though
"the preaching of the cross," they are saved.
That was really a long way of saying that our
soteriology (understanding of salvation) is the same, but we differ on how we
would translate "de sozamenois" from the Greek usage almost 2000
years ago to today's English.
Delete or hide this
Sing F Lau
@ "I understand this scripture in the same manner as you, this salvation being spoken of here is that of the moment when one accepts the saving grace of Christ on the cross. As such, at that moment, those who accept "the preaching of the cross," are, right then, being saved. The moment after realizing "the power of God," though "the preaching of the cross," they are saved. "
@ "I understand this scripture in the same manner as you, this salvation being spoken of here is that of the moment when one accepts the saving grace of Christ on the cross. As such, at that moment, those who accept "the preaching of the cross," are, right then, being saved. The moment after realizing "the power of God," though "the preaching of the cross," they are saved. "
==========
If that's the way you understood it, then you
very likely understand it QUITE differently.
The same preaching comes to two groups of
people:
- them that are perishing, and
- them which are saved.
Them which "are saved" are ALREADY SAVED (by the free and sovereign activities of God) independent and prior to the gospel ministry. They have been effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Christ Jesus.
Their SAVED state explains why they receive
the gospel as the good news that declares the power of God in saving them.
God has SAVED THEM from sin and death – that is, eternal salvation already freely bestowed. That explains their perceiving the gospel as the message declaring the power of God in their salvation.
Believing the gospel SAVES them from lies and
falsehood; the gospel truth set them free from bondage and spiritual darkness.
But all these are different from the eternal salvation that was secured by the
redemptive work of Christ alone, and freely bestowed upon each elect when he
was in his native state of sin and death.
Stephen Woolverton
I understand then that we do see this very
differently.
The difference I see is that, reading this in
the context of what Paul is trying to explain to the church in Corinth, he uses
present passive tense in a very clear fashion to speak of the moment when a person first hears "the message of the cross." Reading this passage,
in light of that context, none of those hearers can possibly be previously
saved as they had not previously heard (Romans 10:14).
Paul further makes this point clear in the
verses that follow 1 Corinth 1:18. In verse 24, while explaining the meaning of
verse 18, Paul writes, "But unto them which are called, both Jews and
Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." Here, Paul
explicitly says he is speaking about those who "are called," not
those who "are saved."
David Dyess II
If they are called, they are also saved. They
heard it in their hearts when they were saved. That's why when they heard with
their ears it was not foolishness. Heard, saved.
Sing F Lau
"Unto them which are called..."
them which are called of God are them which have been called out of their
native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Christ Jesus;
THAT IS, ARE SAVED. Only to them that ARE SAVED, the gospel of Christ speaks of
the power of God and the wisdom of God. To all others, the same message of
Christ speaks of foolishness.
That is such a simple and evident truth.
Sing F Lau
It is only complicated to those who would NOT
rightly divide the word of truth.
The truth of salvation by God's free grace is
simple unless a man's mind has been poisoned and prejudiced by some kind of
work/grace salvation lies!
Matthew Carl Eastland
Rightly loving God means rightly following
Him (John 14:15), and that means following scripture, which tells us to
"rightly divide" those words (II Tim 2:15).
Sing F Lau
Dan, you can put your woolly sentimentality above God's word. Apostle Paul commanded, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Ti 2:15
Speak of all the "love" you want
but if it is not based squarely on the word of God, there will only be SHAME,
misrepresenting God's truth of what love is! God's word, rightly divided,
defines what love is.
The truth of God BOTH divides and unites.
Michael Lim
God is both Love and Truth. these two can't be
separated.
Ted Floyd
RIGHTLY dividing the word won't divide the
sheep except perhaps from the goats, You can't choke the sheep on sheep food.
But the dividing is not so much
the breaking its parts so finely that we miss
the whole context of it and have some sheep saying, " I'll eat this part
but not that." No the Bread of Life which we assimilate is One piece of
all His parts and is given until we all (sheep) come to that unity of the body
of faith. And that unity does come to the church He died for but sadly, is too
often not found in our particular denominational expression of it.
I think we must guard against studying to
show Ourselves ... rather than approved unto God. God may show us His word and
yet not approve of our attitude and claims of exclusivity as the only honorable
vessels for breaking and dividing it to others.
Stephen Woolverton
Since God is both Love & Truth (&
Justice, Righteousness, etc.) we need to serve God both through our hearts and
our minds.
Sing F Lau
"Charity... rejoiceth in the truth"
- BOTH heart and mind.
"If ye love me, keep my
commandments."
And here is one commandment ignored and
despised by those who major on sentimental love without biblical definition!
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out
of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not
endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves
teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from
the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Sing F Lau
Yes, just do the greatest one first - love
God by believing and obeying His teaching - rightly divide and believe what His
Scriptures say.... not just some people's imaginations - apostle Paul called
them "FABLES"!!!
Teaching your neighbours the truth of their
salvation is a great act of love to them. Love them in their own imaginations
is a great deception and delusion! That's how I see loving my neighbours as
myself!!!
Love that does not rejoice in His truth is not loving; it is some woolly sentimentalism!
Sing F Lau
Dan, if you cannot keep to the subject, it is
best for you to hold your peace! We are talking about the truth stated in 1Cor
1:18.
Just what do you believe that passage is
saying? And just what is your basis? I have stated mine. Why don't you state
yours, and give us the reasons.
Who is talking about the relationship between
salvation and the choice of Bible translations?
I believe the translators of the KJB not inferior to you in biblical languages, theology, and spirituality!!! What do you think?
Many are saved but have a BAD relationship with
Jesus Christ - they claim they are in love with Christ but have little respect
for His truth. Even many KJB-ONLY have a bad relationship with Jesus Christ...
but that's not the subject of discussion here.
A right relationship with Jesus Christ most
certainly cares about using a faithful Bible translation and cares about the truthfulness of the things we claim the Bible teaches.
If you can't shoot well, this is not a place
for you. More is expected of you.
Sing F Lau
It is ok if you hate KJV! I
respect your choice Dan!
This whole thread discusses the distinction
in theology expressed by the two different translations for 1Cor 1:18:
One is monergistic, the other synergistic!!!
The former declares that salvation was already done by the free and sovereign
grace of God, and the gospel declares that salvation; the latter says the
salvation is not yet until the preaching and hearing, and the believing of the
gospel. You choose to believe the latter! That's fine with me!
Stephen Woolverton
Sing, I appreciate this conversation and
your service to God. I believe I understand better our differences regarding
this. Thank you for this conversation, & may God bless you, your family
& your ministry.
Sing F Lau
Dan, you have deleted all your lovely
comments on "love"! That's hardly loving at all!
I get the impression that there are not a few
Christians who believe that those who emphasize on the correctness of doctrines
are UNLOVING; and those who are broad and loose on doctrines are loving! Weird
Apostle Paul prophesied of this long ago, 2Tim
4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not
endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves
teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the
truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Stephen Woolverton
Wonderful scripture choice. I can only assume
that the "fables" Paul was speaking over were current day (for him)
beliefs in false gods. That would be understandable. Sadly, today, Christians
are not turning to false gods or other religions. Today, the fables they are
turning to are false perceptions of Christ and false doctrines.
Cantoro Joe
'are saved' or 'are being saved' - both are
correct.
'are saved' does not mean: speaks of the
completed divine action PRIOR TO and INDEPENDENT of the activities of
preachers, the activity which explains the response of them that are saved,
that is, they hear and perceive the gospel as declaring the power of God in
salvation.
Rather, in this case, the KJV translators
chose to express the adjective part of the participle σωζομενοις.
A participle is a verbal adjective. One part
verb, one part adjective.
Modern translations prefer to express the
verb part of the main idea saved.
Sing F Lau
Can't Oro, a simple question: to whom is the
gospel intended, those that ARE SAVED (in the state of having been saved), or to
those who are in the process of being saved? Do you even appreciate the VAST difference
between the two?
How can both be correct when one speaks of
the SAVED state they ARE in while the other speaks of still in the process of
being saved?
If you think they are the same, then I fear
that your Greek hasn't helped you at all, just as I suspected.
Cantoro Joe
I'm in the process of Can't... Trying...
Almost... CAN
How about let's conclude the meaning of the
term σωζομενοις first?
Word meaning should be that which is
fundamental to theology (systematic). Not the other way round =)
Sing F Lau
Word meaning should be understood in its
context. The same word has different meanings in different contexts.
Context is king, systematic theology is a
king's servant.
Cantoro Joe
"Those who are Perishing ...or them that
perish"??
^^^ maybe solving that one can help.
Yes. Good to do exegesis on this portion as
well.
If we want to go into a semantics game to
make the text say more than what it does say, we could make it say anything.
My conclusion is that this verse just says
that the 'us' who do not regard the preaching of the cross as foolishness are
saved. Which point in time, whether before they were saved, or after the heard
the preaching of the cross then saved, is not clear enough.
If we want to play a semantics game, we could
go about for eg, KJV uses 'which', referring thus to non-human objects that are
saved.
Charles Page
some of the saved are perishing! Obedience to the preached word would have prevented perishing.
some of the saved are perishing! Obedience to the preached word would have prevented perishing.
Sing F Lau
1 Tim 4: 16 “Take heed unto thyself, and unto
the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself,
and them that hear thee.”
Phil 2:12 “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have
always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work
out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh
in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
Please tell what salvation is spoken of?
Charles Page
temporal salvation.
temporal salvation.
Robert E Griffin
How foolish to not understand English. Sounds like more KJVonly cult nonsense
How foolish to not understand English. Sounds like more KJVonly cult nonsense
Charles Page
properly derived English comes only from the
KJV. The understanding of KJV will render one correct in the English language.
modern language Bibles are alternative
English derivatives. Modern alternatives are British lawyers drawing up
contracts for commerce. Deceptions to affect the market in British colonial
commerce.
Charles Page
Reading an NKJV is foolish if you expect to
understand the Christian faith.
Cantoro Joe
Let me clarify, I'm not saying there's
anything wrong with the KJV (referring to the 1769 edition after correcting
printing errors).
It is only those who do not understand
English grammar back in 1611 are confused, and they misinterpret it.
Let me inform that English has changed more
over 200 years than Greek over 2000 years.
Sing F Lau
One moment you depend on Greek to maintain
your fable; the next moment you resort to English to deceive! Make up your mind
lah, Can't Oro!!!
All may have changed, but the truth of God's
work of salvation remains the same and rightly dividing the word of truth
remains the same.
Sing F Lau
The whole matter is quite simple if one's
mind is not yet poisoned.
The preaching of the gospel comes to ONLY TWO
SORTS of people:
a. "to them that perish" and
b. "to them that are saved."
The whole of mankind living and walking on
this earth is seen in this manner with respect to the preaching.
To the former, the ONE same gospel message is
perceived as foolishness... speaking nonsense. Why? Because of the spiritual state they
are in.
To the latter, that ONE SAME message is
perceived entirely differently; it is perceived as speaking the power of God in
saving them. Why? Because of the state they are in.
What is so difficult about this BASIC
truth.... that your Greek scholars and English linguists need to obfuscate???
Sharon Franklin
I am saved!
I am saved!
Sing F Lau
You are saved (the eternal aspect of your
salvation), and you are being saved (the temporal aspect of your salvation).
The former is a once-for-all completely and solely by God's free and sovereign
grace; the latter is ongoing and conditioned upon the obedience of God's
children to His will.
Stephen Woolverton
Amen! & Amen!
Amen! & Amen!
Daniel Hodges
One of satan's tricks - instead of a 'Revised
Version' of the bible, he gives you instead, a 'reversed vision'.
