Things New and Old: Two men conversing on the things of God

Two men conversing on the things of God

Some exchanges between two students of God's word

FEB 26TH, 9:23AM

Pat

Good day, Brother sing. Pastor Paw spoke to our church yesterday as our guest speaker and he told me to message you because he said you are a great defender of the Biblical Reformed doctrine and doesn't want anyone to make a compromise on it. Thank you and God bless.

sing

Dear Brother, good to hear from you. I'm just a student of God's word and think for myself. We don't want the reformed doctrine... we want the biblical doctrine. So, let us study the Bible together. Let our confession of "sola scriptura" be true, not just jargon. Amen.

Pat

Amen. As Ptr. Paul Washer said once, the reformed doesn't want to be called reformed, they just want to be Biblical. God bless.

Oh, as I back read on the message I sent, I feel sorry because I erroneously paraphrased Ptr. Paw words. He said that you are a very good and strict teacher of the word, because when someone is biblically wrong, you correct him/her right there and then because you said that the sheep will listen to what the Bible says, even if it seems offending or not. I am new to the so-called "reformed" faith and the Biblical doctrine of Grace and it really humbles me. I am too eager and excited to know more about the grace of our loving Lord to be transformed through it and to share its overflowing richness to my Christian friends, and to the lost ones.

sing
Brother Pat, if you are on Facebook, take a look at the latest post. Ask any questions related to what is said in that post. May the Lord deliver us from popular errors pushed by the sincere reformed brethren.

FEB 26TH, 1:58PM
Pat

Thank you, sing. I'll get back to you for clarifications after I meditate on the word of God mentioned in your post. May God's glory be manifested.

FEB 27TH, 6:24PM

Pat
Good evening, sing. Thank you for the article you posted yesterday regarding justification. It seems that it came from a lengthy sermon by Dr. John Gill, namely, "The Doctrine Of Justification, By The Righteousness Of Christ, Stated And Maintained". I would like to ask if you would recommend this whole sermon, and if there are any passages that you would recommend me to study. Thank you and God bless.

sing

Brother Pat, I wasn't aware of John Gill teaching until l have learned the truth in a much simpler way. It was later that I discovered that John Gill taught the same truth long ago. Gill was maligned and loathed as a hyper-calvinist when I was RB. Gill expounded the truth in a far far better manner. So, read his lengthy article.

Pat

Oh. Thanks a lot for that, sing.

May I also ask if what "systematic theology" (I really do not know what will I call it) are you currently embracing? Because you said that you were a reformed baptist.

sing

You probably mean the order of salvation. If you go to my blog, search "ordo salutis", you will be able to see many articles on the subjects. Here a few of them.

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2017/01/the-order-of-salvation-ordo-salutis.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2011/12/reformed-folks-deny-ordo-salutis-stated.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2010/04/messed-up-order-of-salvation-of.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2013/12/minor-disregard-major-disaster.html

Feel free to ask any questions on the subject. I'll be happy to try to respond if I can. I'm still learning; I'll be greatly indebted if your questions help me in that direction. ASKING QUESTIONS is a great way to learn.

Pat

I am about to say that I am sorry for any disturbances that I might bring to you, but thank you so much for your offer to be questioned. I really appreciate it. I just really wanted to be Biblical and to preach the Biblical Christ.

sing

I'm most willing to be questioned. I learn through questions to scrutinize popular idea to ascertain whether it can stand the test of Scriptures.

He who asks questions must be ready to answer questions too.

Pat

I'll get back to you as soon as I finished reading John Gill's sermon regarding justification and the articles you sent me a while ago. To God be the glory!

May the Lord bless us to know His truth.

FEB 27TH, 9:16PM

Pat

Sing, even if I am not yet finished, I just wanted to clarify something on your blog post "Messed Up Order of Salvation". You said "4. "Whenever there is regeneration then conversion takes place. Plain wrong too.”

Some regeneration is never accompanied by conversion through the gospel ministry. Some of God's children are incapable of being reached by the gospel ministry."

Continuation: "SO ALSO there are God's justified people who are incapable of being reached with the gospel, and therefore not justified by their faith. But everyone is justified by the free grace of God in effectual calling. This alone ensures that the promised salvation is SURE to every elect."

Do you mean that some elects that are of course justified by grace will never be able to hear the gospel for their entire life, and will not have faith?

But still, they will be glorified/saved?

Am I right in my interpretation of your post?

Some elects are saved by grace alone, through any means besides faith?

sing

I myself struggled through this issue for years. The Lord taught me, and I'm so liberated from the theological nightmare because of the inconsistencies inherent in the popular reformed theology.

Yes. Justification by God's free grace makes a man fit for eternal glory. Nothing further is needed for his eternal glory.

Justification by his faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry is needed for his temporal blessings in the life here and now.

Read my several articles on Romans 8:28-30.

Read my article on the effectual call.

The crux is understanding the distinction between the eternal salvation through the justification of life based on the righteousness of Christ, and the temporal salvation based on the justification by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Please ask further.

Pat
Are you saying that someone might be an elect EVEN if He did not even know Jesus Christ or the Bible/Gospel?

sing

This article is helpful:

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2012/11/the-effectual-call-as-summarized-in.html

There are those who are justified, regenerated, and adopted who are INCAPABLE of being outwardly called by the gospel ministry; others don't have the OPPORTUNITY to be called by the gospel ministry.

sing

Are you saying that someone might be an elect EVEN if He did not even know Jesus Christ or the Bible/Gospel?
=======

I am saying that there are God’s children - elect whom God has regenerated and made fit for eternal glory - who are not called by the gospel, therefore experience no conversion, (i.e. have no experiential knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.)

- Only those whom God has justified and regenerated and adopted and given the Spirit of God to dwell in them are capable of being converted, (i.e. brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.) The conversion will bring many blessings to them in this life; conversion or not DOES NOT affect their eternal salvation. Why? They having been blessed with eternal salvation in Jesus Christ PRECEDES their ability to believe in the gospel.

Pat

So salvation is only by grace through (1) faith, and (2) grace itself/election and predestination? Am I right?

sing

Salvation by grace through faith from Eph 2:8-9 is a religious shibboleth...

Read this article here, if you don't mind. This will help you to understand that passage rightly. You will learn something.

The article has been read more than 2000 times.

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html

Pat

So, you believe sola fide in a sense that faith is the only way for an elect to be converted and have temporal salvation?

sing

Let me summarized like this:

1. God purposed eternal salvation for His elect;

2. Christ secured that eternal salvation for the same people.

3. The Holy Spirit applies that same salvation to each individual personally of that same people - prospectively before the cross, and retrospectively after the cross;

4. The gospel ministry is divinely ordained for the purpose informing God's children - those to whom God the Spirit has applied the eternal salvation personally - of what He has done for them in Jesus Christ, calling them to believe the truth.

5. Christ shall glorify all those whom the Father gave to Him and for whom He redeemed.

Pat

But am I right with what I said, Sing? That you believe sola fide in a sense that faith is the only way for an elect to be converted and have temporal salvation? Contrary to the popular sola fide that says all elect will have faith?

sing

So, you believe sola fide in a sense that faith is the only way for an elect to be converted and have temporal salvation?

====================

Sola fidei in the biblical sense is the faith OF Jesus Christ. The righteousness needed for our justification before God is by the faith of Jesus Christ. Read Roms 3:20-25.

Sola-fidei popularly understood, i.e. the believing act of a man in Christ is ONLY possible by those whom God has already bestowed eternal salvation. "Except a man be born again, he CAN NOT....." When a man can, it is evident that he has been born again and made fit for eternal glory.

Believing in Jesus Christ is evidence and a manifestation of the eternal salvation already bestowed freely by God's grace.

Pat

Alright, Pastor. I think I understand it a little bit clearer this time.

sing

"...Contrary to the popular sola fide that says all elect will have faith?"

======
This is a popular fable; it necessarily implies that every elect is able to, and will hear the gospel, and believe the gospel, i.e. have faith in Jesus Christ.
"Faith cometh by hearing..." see Rom 10:17.

The grace of faith is worked by the indwelling Spirit in every child of God, i.e. elect that are regenerated. That grace of faith is drawn out by the preaching of the gospel. "Faith cometh by hearing; hearing by the word of God."

The gospel light alone can cast a shadow (an act of believing) if there is a solid object (eternal salvation) present. No amount of gospel light can cast a shadow (faith) unless there is the solid object (eternal salvation bestowed by the free grace of God) present

Pat

Let me quote just some theological terms from thegospelcoalition website.

"Exclusivism is the view that faith in Jesus through the gospel or special revelation is necessary for salvation."

So in short, you do not believe this "exclusivism" in terms of eternal salvation? Am I getting this right?

sing

The light (gospel ministry) alone can cast a shadow (the act of believing) if there is a solid object (eternal salvation) present.

In the absence of light, no shadow can be cast even if the solid object is present.

Pat

Am I right in paraphrasing what you explained? The only necessary thing for the salvation of an elect is the free grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

sing

"Exclusivism is the view that faith in Jesus through the gospel or special revelation is necessary for salvation."

=======

Q1. Necessary for what salvation?

Only a man whom God has given eternal salvation can believe the truth of his salvation by God's free grace.

- "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT.... "

- the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, i.e. those whom God has not saved.

- the gospel is perceived as the power of God in saving helpless sinners by those whom God has saved. 1Cor 1:18

The gospel ministry saves a man differently from the way God saves that man.

- God saves that man from eternal misery unto eternal salvation.

- the gospel ministry saves a CHILD OF God, i.e. one whom God has saved, from ignorance, superstition, errors, lies, unto truth, hope, assurance, peace, comfort, godliness, etc, etc... for his spiritual well-being in this life.

You must distinguish the eternal salvation by the free grace of God, and the salvation that is conditional upon the activities of God's children, i.e. those who God has saved.

Let me give you a simple down-to-earth example. The life that you and your wife give to your children, and the life that they must get for themselves as your children are two distinct and different lives.

In the former, they were completely passive; in the latter, they are responsible to diligently attend to the means the Father has appointed for them.

Pat

But, do you think it is possible that someone who belongs to a "religion" that does not consider Christ as God can still be an elect? Because the premise is "as long as he/she is an elect, he/she is eternally saved"

Or someone who doesn't even believe in God, or someone who knows a different "god" other than Christ Jesus, is saved, because "he is an elect, therefore he is eternally saved"

sing

Completely possible. Many first-generation Christians were converted out of all sorts of religions. Only God's children can be converted. The gospel ministry was ordained to call out God's children, regenerated elect, out from all sorts of religious backgrounds.

Look at all the Gentile converts that formed the churches... what were their religious backgrounds? They were God's children and were called out by the gospel ministry and gathered into NT churches.

Pat

Oh. I think that is something strange to the Bible. An unrepentant sinner who mocks the existence of God, or the very nature of God is an elect. I can't simply remember any passage on the Bible that speaks such.

But the evidence of the election of the Gentile converts is their "temporal salvation", they repented and follow the Christ of the Bible in their life here on earth.

sing

I think you misunderstood me. Go read what Apostle Peter discovered.... Acts 10:34-35.

Pat

I just read it starting from verse 1 of chapter 10. But the thing with the context is that Cornelius, after some time, still heard about Jesus Christ.

sing

He was accepted of God long before the gospel ministry came to him.

Pat

Yes. No argument about that. But his justification is clearly followed by the gospel ministry after some time.

sing

There are those who fear God and work righteousness in all nations, then as now, who needs to be called out by the gospel ministry.

Pat

Yes. But if I understood you correctly, you said a while ago that it is completely possible for an atheist or someone from different religion to be eternally saved without hearing the Gospel or hearing about Jesus. That the gospel ministry would not follow for some elect, (like the "elect" atheists, "elect" muslims, etc.)

Because the premise is, "they are eternally saved by grace alone through faith OF the Lord Jesus Christ"

(sing: not faith IN the Lord Jesus Christ, because having faith IN the Christ is just the means for temporal salvation, not eternal)

sing

You are saying that before that gospel came to him (Cornelius), he was still an unjustified man, still under condemnation? A man who is not justified by God is still under condemnation. Do you read a man like that? Do you read of an unjustified man?

Pat

No. I agree that a man is justified BEFORE the Gospel came to Him. But all throughout the Bible, I believe that this foreknowledge, predestination, election, justification of God alone is followed by the elect being called to acknowledge Christ.

I certainly agree that a man is eternally saved and is justified by God's eternal decree from eternity. Nothing to argue about that. But the Bible clearly speaks of the gospel ministry and the elects response in it. UNLESS there is a passage in the scripture that explicitly says that someone is an elect while continuing to live according to the flesh, e.g. atheists, muslims, humanists, etc.

Or unless I missed a passage in the Bible itself that says that some, if not all, of the infants and those from remote places that never heard about Christ are elect. Especially those without any fruit or sign of obedience or even respect to Him.

Oh, that the Scripture alone interpret Itself for the glory of God alone. May God bless us, Pastor, as we desire to know what the Bible really says, especially in this very precious topic of justification by grace alone.

sing

============================

You are saying that all that are in heaven would have heard the gospel and confess faith in Jesus Christ? Am I right? Because hearing and believing the gospel is a necessary part of eternal salvation.

Pat

Oh that is a great question. The thing is those that are in heaven before Christ physically came into the world are saved through the faith OF Christ.

sing

=========

Romans 8:29-30 says otherwise. The elect's eternal salvation is completely independent of anything they do.

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2012/09/some-plain-observations-from-romans-829.html

sing

Oh that is a great question. The thing is those that are in heaven before Christ physically came into the world are saved though the faith OF Christ.

=======

Is the way of salvation different after Christ has come?

Is it no longer by the faith OF Christ? If not, then what alternative?

Pat

I definitely agree that the elect's eternal salvation is completely independent of man's work. But I do believe that the election of Christ is followed by obedience to God, by having fruits.

I am only having problem with the thought that some elect can possibly not know Christ OR have any fruit in their entire temporal life on earth.

I think the problem is if we say that the elects in the pre-Messiah's time doesn't know the Gospel. I think they do know the Gospel, that is why the prophets, the men of old, waited, and are excited for the coming of the Messiah promised in Genesis, the Messiah that will crush the head of the serpent. I think that is the start of the Gospel message.

sing

============

You don't need to force the Bible to say what it does not say.

Just be content to take the Bible the way it says it.

The Scriptures plainly declares, and Apostle Peter discovered the great truth, that in every nation there are those who fear God and work righteousness; and they are so because God has accepted them in Jesus Christ, He has saved them with eternal salvation before anyone brought the gospel to them.

The gospel is intended for such and is the purpose of the gospel ministry; to call out God's children from whatever religious background they were found in.

Such are as eternally saved by God as any other children of God even if the gospel failed to reach them. Some of such people cannot be reached with the gospel - maybe because of mental incapacity, and various other reasons, etc.

Pat

I think the elects in the old testament, pre-Messiah's time, knew the gospel is, and knew the coming Messiah, because the "sheep hears His voice", and because they are chosen before the foundations of the world.

sing

I definitely agree that the elect's eternal salvation is completely independent of man's work. But I do believe that the election of Christ is followed by obedience to God, by having fruits.

========

Is fearing God and working righteousness considered fruits in your understanding?

Is hearing the gospel necessary and prerequisite for fearing God and working righteousness?

Pat

Fearing God and working righteousness, I think are considered "fruits". Fruits of course by the Holy Spirit. We can't bear fruits apart from Him.

I think yes. It is the means by which God makes someone realize to fear God. I think Cornelius, did good, of course because he is already justified, but he did it with understanding.
[sing: Cornelius and Lydia already feared God and worked righteousness before any gospel was brought to them. How?]

sing

I am only having problem with the thought that some elect can possibly not know Christ OR have any fruit in their entire temporal life on earth.

===================

The effectual call to grace and salvation radically changes the nature of a man; he is a changed man, a new man, even though he is still ignorant of a lots of things concerning God and God's purpose of salvation in Christ for him. Cornelius was a man who feared God and worked righteousness. Remember the eunuch? Lydia?

If the gospel ministry did not reach them, they would still be those who fear God and work righteousness... but they would be deprived of the great blessings that the gospel ministry they can enjoy in this life.

Pat

Post script on the second question: not merely the outward (if I used the term correctly) gospel call, but the inward gospel call. Nevertheless, it is still a gospel call.

So, you do not agree that an elect will not be God fearing and work righteousness?

Because that is what I am having problems with. The statement that an elect, without the outward Gospel ministry call, is possible not to bear ANY fear for God and ANY works of righteousness.

sing
"So, you do not agree that an elect will not be God fearing and work righteousness?"
=====
An elect who is not effectually called is one EVEN AS OTHERS are, i.e. conceived in sin, born in sin, and lives in sin, such are still in their native state of condemnation and death, have no fear of God, and none righteous.

Once effectually called out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, he is a changed man EVEN without the gospel ministry; he fears God and works righteousness, despite his ignorance of the gospel of Christ.

sing

I think the elects in the old testament, pre-Messiah's time, know the Gospel is, and know the coming Messiah, because the "sheep hears His voice", and because they are chosen before the foundations of the world.

=========

There were God's children among the Israelite and they were God's children outside of Israel. Those among the Israelite had a faint idea of the gospel through the ceremonial laws; those outside of Israel were devoid of any gospel light. Paul affirm that in Act 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent."

Pat

I think it would be easier this way:

A. An elect (regardless of the outward Gospel ministry call) will ABSOLUTELY have fear and reverence and works of righteousness of God.

B. SOME elect (regardless of the outward Gospel ministry call) MAY NEVER HAVE ANY fear, reverence, and works of righteousness for God.

Which view do you hold on to?

sing

A child of God (an elect who has been effectually called to grace and salvation, i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted, and given the Spirit of adoption to dwell in him) will have the fruit of fearing God and works righteousness BEFORE he ever have the gospel ministry brought to him.

The gospel ministry will enlighten him of his glorious salvation by God's free grace in Christ Jesus, teaching him to deny ungodliness and unrighteousness, and live soberly, godly and righteousness in this present world before he enters into his blessed eternal inheritance.

Does this answer your question?

Pat

Yes. I think that's clearer now. There might be some lapses on the conversations that lead to misunderstanding.

sing

Elect who are not yet regenerated may be evil monsters, EVEN AS OTHERS.

Even a child of God like Saul, who was filled with zeal of God, persecuted the way of Christ out of IGNORANCE, before his conversion on the road to Damascus.

The gospel ministry enlightens a child of God; it is God's work alone that change the nature of an elect through the effectual call.

Good night. Good conversation.

Pat

Yes, I will certainly agree with that. With all respect and humility, I praise God for having such a wonderful conversation with you, Pastor Sing. Good night and God bless. Glory to God alone!

sing

I remember this article of some while ago, dealing with the same issue.

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2013/07/those-who-fear-god-and-work.html

Good night. zzzzzzz.

MAR 7TH, 5:34PM

Pat

Good afternoon, sing. I would like to ask about this one: Can righteousness be imputed, and sin charged, upon a person at the same time?

If the elect is already justified from eternity, how can he be said to be condemned when they do not believe yet? I mean, can one be justified and condemned at the same time?

Thank you so much. To God be all the glory!

Francis Turretin also made the distinction: “The decree of justification is one thing; justification itself another—as the will to save and sanctify is one thing; salvation and sanctification itself another. The will or decree to justify certain persons is indeed eternal and precedes faith itself, but actual justification takes place in time and follows faith” Institutes of Elenctic Theology, 2:683.

sing

Good to hear from you again.

Pat

1689 LBCF 11.4 also states that "God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; NEVERTHELESS, they are NOT YET justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them. (emphasis added)

How can we be also enemies of God if we are already justified in eternity?

I think one of the possible interpretations of Galatians 2:16 is this: (1) we are saved by the faithfulness of Christ (by God's decree), (2) "that we might be justified by the faith of Christ" is preceded with the statement "even we have believed in Jesus Christ" (3) because of this, justification takes place IN TIME, THROUGH FAITH, IN, the faithfulness OF Jesus Christ.

Sing

About 30 years, a man made this statement, which at the time I did not appreciate its significance. He said, "biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology." This statement came home to me when I first heard and learned of the distinct aspects of salvation spoken of in the Scriptures.

In the doctrine of justification, there are indeed 5 distinct aspects; as you have rightly referenced to the 1689.11.4.

1689.11.4 declares the first THREE aspects of the doctrine of justification. Not a single RBs are aware of this truth understood by the old school theologians.

1. The justification decreed by God. There were those that are justified by Gods decree, and the rest weren't. This justification is real in the decretal sense.

2. The justification actually accomplished by Christ on the cross: the actual double imputation took place: all the sins of all those God gave to Christ to redeem were imputed to Christ and He made full and complete satisfaction to them; the righteousness of Christ was legally imputed to all the same as well.

3. The justification VITALLY APPLIED to each elect personally at his effectual calling out of his native state of sin, condemnation and death. What was only LEGAL (which took place when we do not have personal existence yet... just like the sin of Adam was legally imputed to all represented by him.)

4. The justification VITALLY APPLIED is elaborated in 1689.11.1

5. The justification experienced/manifested by faith is elaborated in 1689.11.2

6. The justification shall be finally consummated/vindicated before the judgment throne.

Sing

"Good afternoon. I would like to ask about this one: Can righteousness be imputed, and sin charged, upon a person at the same time?

If the elect is already justified from eternity, how can he be said to be condemned when they do not believe yet? I mean, can one be justified and condemned at the same time?"

========

Legal imputation is a legal transaction; it does not require the personal existence of the people involved. Adam's descendants were not around personally when his sin was imputed to the whole human race. Though they did not yet exist personally, yet each and every one was all already in the mind of God.

The elect were all already in the book of life. We were already LEGAL ENTITIES in the mind and purposes of God even though we did not have personal existence yet.

What was LEGALLY IMPUTED when we did not yet exist (have personal existence, others have passed on from this life) needs to be VITALLY APPLIED to us when we have been conceived and have personal existence.

What is true in the mind of God - His decree to justify many in eternity - is not yet true for each individual personally until that righteousness of Christ is actually APPLIED vitally to each elect personally (now having personal existence.)

It is only after the righteousness of Christ has been applied to an elect personally that makes experiencing that justification by faith in Christ (the basis of one’s justification before God) is possible.

So there are distinct aspects of justification spoken of in the Scriptures.

sing

You quoted: “The decree of justification is one thing; justification itself another—as the will to save and sanctify is one thing; salvation and sanctification itself another. The will or decree to justify certain persons is indeed eternal and precedes faith itself, but actual justification takes place in time and follows faith” Institutes of Elenctic

====

- There is actual justification in eternity… in the DECRETAL sense by God.

- There is actual justification in time at the cross… in the LEGAL sense by Christ's righteousness and blood.

- There is actual justification in time at one’s effectual calling out of the native state of sin, condemnation, and death when the righteousness of Christ is VITALLY applied to him, justifying him and warranting eternal life for him.

- There is actual justification in time in EXPERIENTIAL sense through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ when a child of God (an elect who is justified, regenerated and adopted) experienced the blessedness of his justified state through faith in Christ.

There is actual justification at the end of time when the just are finally VINDICATED before the great judgment throne.

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Pat

I agree with all my heart that "Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology", but the same also applies to the opposite, "Erroneous Biblical distinction is the essence of erroneous theology (that is clothed in "sound theology"). That is why we must be very careful to speak of the "mysteries of God".

sing

Regarding the "legal imputation", am I right in this statement, Pastor?

"The sins of Adam's descendant were legally imputed to them."

How can we be also enemies of God if we are already justified in eternity?

======

Those whom God has decreed to justify, and those for whom Christ LEGALLY justified on the cross (retrospectively or prospectively) are, at God's appointed and approved time, conceived in sin, and born in sin. They are even as others, i.e. the none elect, they are in enmity against God, they are NOT PERSONALLY and VITALLLY justified "UNTIL the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them." 1689.11.4.

It is only AFTER the Holy Spirit has applied Christ to them that they are PERSONALLY justified. THEN and ONLY THEN, they are capable of exercising faith.

Faith is an effect of justification APPLIED. This was the standard and uniform doctrine of the old school theology.

Pat

Is 1689.11.4 absolutely a part of the whole counsel of God regarding eternal salvation? If it is absolutely part of the saving grace, then it is right to say that justification is through faith alone.

Or justification is by faith IN the faithfulness OF Christ alone.

Maybe to paraphrase that, will all the elect experience a personal and vital justification?

sing

"The sins of Adam's descendants were legally imputed to them."

======

I’m not sure if I understand your question.

Imputation is the legal accounting of what belongs to one legal entity to another legal entity.

In that sense, there is no need of imputing the sins of Adam's descendants to them; the sins are theirs already.

There is a sense in which a man's sins are imputed to him, that is. God holds the man himself accountable and answerable for his sins before His judgment throne.

So Rom 4:8 "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Why? Because God has imputed his sins to His Son Jesus Christ, and Christ made full satisfaction of those sins on the cross.

Pat

Because they are justified from eternity, does it mean that the elect are not disobedient, dead in trespasses, did not fall short of the glory of God, in God's sight even before conversion?

[sing: before his effectual call to grace and salvation, an elect is EVEN AS OTHERS, see Eph 2:3 and 1Th 4:13. "Eph 2 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

sing

=========

I understand Paul as saying this to the Galatians:

- Knowing this truth... not by works of the law but by the faith of Christ

- So we believe it...

- Thus declaring that the truth, i.e we are justified by the faith OF Christ.

- Our justification by Christ happened first at the cross. Our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross. If a man denies that, let him tell us when was his sins LEGALLY dealt with!

- So, we believe that truth as it is in Christ.

- This we declare that our justification is by the righteousness and blood of Christ, i.e. His faithfulness in His execution and accomplishment of our redemption.

Pat

Romans 3:27 "...on that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith."

I think it is clear that the one who is "observing" here is man, not God.

Therefore, Paul says on v28 that "a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

On the same epistle to the Galatians, chapter 3 verses 23-25

BEFORE this FAITH came, we were held PRISONERS by the law, locked up UNTIL faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ THAT we might be justified BY faith. NOW that faith has come, we are NO LONGER under the supervision of the law.

sing

=================

It is just summarizing what the Scripture teaches concerning the manifold aspects of justification.

LEGAL justification is by the faith OF Christ alone.

EXPERIENTIAL justification is through faith IN Christ alone.

sing

"Or justification is by faith IN the faithfulness OF Christ alone."

===
Justification by the decree of God in eternity

Justification by the faith of Christ on the cross

Justification applied to an elect personally at effectual calling out of the NATIVE state of sin, condemnation, and death.

Justification EXPERIENCED by a child of God through faith IN Jesus Christ.

Justification vindicated before the great judgment throne.

Justification by the faith of Christ speaks of the LEGAL BASIS/GROUND of our justification as condemned sinners before the righteous Judge.

Justification through our faith in Jesus Christ speaks of the means to experience the blessedness of our justified state by the grace of God based on the righteousness of Jesus Christ

sing
Maybe to paraphrase that, will all the elect experience a personal and vital justification?

==========

Every elect shall be effectually called out of his native state of sin, condemnation and death; THAT IS, every elect shall have the righteousness of Christ applied to him VITALLY /PERSONALLY.

Not all such are capable of being called out by the gospel ministry to have faith in Jesus Christ.

I must run... we have mid-week bible study tonight.

Pat

Okay pastor, Let's continue this conversation sooner or later. Thank you so much!. May God lead you to faithfully preach His Word through your Mid-week Bible study tonight!

Sing
On Romans 3 and Gal 3, know the 3 distinct sets of contrast... things shall become clear.

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2011/05/three-distinct-sets-of-contrast-in.html

MAR 26TH, 3:30PM

Pat

Good afternoon, Sing. I would like to ask some clarifications on your post-dated March 15, 2018. You said that "(2). Among the elect of God on earth: (b) There are those whom God has regenerated, and given eternal life, without any human agency/instrumentality... - Of the believers, there are disciples to vastly varying degrees... See the parable of the sower... some are fruitful, others are fruitless!... Some hear and do, others hear and forget!"

Are you saying that there are elect that will never bear fruit in his/her temporal life? Thank you.

Are you saying that there are some elects that will never bear fruit in his/her temporal life? And what is your Scripture reference on that? Thank you.

Another thing:

You also wrote on the same post - "Some are converted to a great degree, others resist conversion!"

Are you saying that

a) there are some elect that resist conversion but eventually will accept conversion?

b) there are some elect that will resist conversion all-throughout their life?

And again, what is/are the Scriptural reference(s) to your position? Thank you, Pastor. To God be the Glory.

sing

Are you saying that there are elect that will never bear fruit in his/her temporal life? Thank you, Pastor.

---------------

1. Each elect shall be effectually called out of his native state of sin and death to grace and salvation n Jesus Christ. Each effectually called elect will bear fruit of fearing God and works righteousness whether the gospel ministry get to him to bring him to a saving knowledge of his eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, freely bestowed upon him by God's grace.

Concerning your question, what kind of fruit do you have in mind?

Pat

If I am not mistaken, a fruit mentioned in the Bible may mean good works, or the fruit of the Spirit, or (i am not sure with this) disciples, depending on the context.

But my question refers specifically in good works.

If each (or every elect individual) shall (absolute sense) be effectually called, and each effectually called elect will bear fruit, why then did you say that "some [elect] are fruitless"?

If I am not mistaken, it's like If A (elect) then B (effectually called), and, If B (effectually called) then C (bear fruit), then why did you post that if A (elect) then C (bear fruit) or not C (not bear fruit)?

Thank you!

sing

If each (or every elect individual) shall (absolute sense) be effectually called, and each effectually called elect will bear fruit, why then did you say that "some [elect] are fruitless"?

----------

One is the fruit by the effectual calling out of the native state of in and death to that of grace and salvation... we see that fruit in people like Cornelius and Lydia, and all such round the world, before the gospel call ever came to them.

Another is the fruit through the gospel call. With respect to this, the Scriptures say there are those who are fruitless. Read Matt 13 on the parable of the sower, and Peter's warning in 2Pet 1:8.

Does this simple explanation help?

sing

But my question refers specifically in good works.

--------

Did Cornelius manifest good works before his conversion through the gospel ministry administered by Apostle Peter?

I ask to understand what you mean by good works?

Pat

Thank you, Pastor, for your response. Yes, that became clearer now. Simple, short, and precise.

With regards to Cornelius, as I have read and understand it moments earlier, yes, Cornelius manifest good works that are acceptable to God even before His conversion.

If I am not mistaken, good works are either acceptable or not.

Not acceptable as the prophet Isaiah said in Isa. 64:6

Good works are only acceptable because of the finished work of Christ Jesus on the cross.

Good works are the evidence of justified and regenerated elect, not the means to be eternally saved.

sing

Amen. The effectual call brings an elect into the eternal salvation purposed and secured for him. This effectual call radically changes him; he fears God and does the works of righteousness that the light of nature gives him in the absence of the gospel ministry. Without the gospel ministry and the process of conversion that it is intended to bring, the gracious Lord winked at the ignorance of His children (effectually called elect).

Pat

Amen to that. What a really gracious God we have!

sing

Rev 5:9 “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

You and I assume this claim to be true to the last letter.

Historically, the multitudes of those tribes and people groups are mentioned in the chapters of Genesis. God had His people among all those tribes and people; Christ has redeemed them. What happened to them? Where are the redeemed among them now? Was the gospel delivered to them? How were they ever saved?

Pat

They are saved only by the grace of God.

By the way, one question on this.

Is it right to assume that although the gospel, as mentioned in the new testament, was not delivered to them, they understood the gospel in Genesis, thus, evidencing their elect state? (I believe Genesis 3:15 is already gospel)

Is it right to assume that every elect on pre-advent, or even post-advent, like Cornelius, understood the Gospel as mentioned in Genesis 3:15, as an evidence of the grace of God in eternally saving them? Even though they are not able to hear the Gospel in the New Testament perspective, they understood the Gospel in the Old Testament perspective?

sing

In one sense, yes. Adam understood it when the seed of the woman was announced; he named the woman Eve, the mother of all living.

In another sense, no. The NT clearly describes the gospel as a mystery hidden until Christ was revealed to the world.

Also, even the types and shadows of the gospel were restricted to a very tiny nation. The rest of God's people scattered among all the people of the earth were mainly ignorant.

Pat

Oh, that makes sense. Thank you, Pastor.

But I am curious on what Scripture reference evidences that there are elect in the old Testament outside of the nation of Israel.

sing

Does Rev 5:9 provide an answer? What's the period covered by this grand statement, do you think?

Since Christ has redeemed to God His people out of every kindred, and tongue and people and nation, I feel confident to conclude that God has His elect in every kindred, and tongue and people and nation,

Some specific names of people were mentioned in the Scriptures that were certainly outside of Israel, e.g. Melchizedek, a Rahab, a Ruth.

Pat

Thank you for those insights. God bless!

And by the way, Ptr. Paw gave me yesterday a copy of your book "A Pruning of Seven Deformed Branches". I just started reading it last night. Thank you, again, Pastor.