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| Is a man's place in heaven predetermined by God? |
From: Nicole
Date: Sun, Jul 5, 2009, at 1:14 AM
Subject: questions about the bible/Christianity
Hi Pastor Lau,
It's Nicole (again). I really don't know how to phrase my question because my ideas are rather incoherent but I'll try to illustrate what I'm trying to say. Rom 8:29 says that "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers ", so does that mean the places in heaven are already predestined and fixed?
Then since God has already chosen His people, are the things churches do now, things like missions and street evangelism and door-to-door evangelism, in vain? Matt 28:19 does say that we should "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" which I suppose things like youth rallies and mission trips are purposed for. Then again, if God has predestined already who would go to Heaven and who would not, it kinda means that no matter what we do, no matter how much we pray for intercession, it does not alter God's decision, does it? But then again is it because we do not know who exactly are the elect and those who are not, that we have outreach events and pray for the salvation of non-believers/pre-believers? And that perhaps outreach events and missions are God's channel to those predestined who...have yet to hear the gospel? (I did say I was incoherent and poor at structuring questions, so heh, do pardon me).
I think the second issue is perhaps easier to phrase. Jo-Hanan did say that "there are misguided, deluded children of God but regardless they still go to heaven". I did say somewhere along the lines that my Catholic friend thinks its okay for sex out of marriage and that homosexuality isn't a sin and that it's okay etc etc. I'm not quite sure if quoting Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." is apt in this case, but well it sort of contradicts. Perhaps you could shed some light on that verse (and Rom 10:13 too) since they might be in different contexts.
Thanks! (and for the previous reply on women being pastors too. would it be okay to ask my pastors why there are women pastors in my church? hmm.)
God bless
Nicole
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Dear Sister Nicole,
Thank you for your inquiries. Inquiring is an excellent means to seek after the truth and to rightly understand the truth of the Scriptures. So, please continue to inquire after the truth. The Lord has promised his disciples, "seek, and ye shall find."
They are good inquiries, and I hope you will learn and practice the truth that the Lord will show to you. Truth demands allegiance; errors require abhorrence. Indifference to either is a great offence to the God of truth. In Ps 99:8, we read, "Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions." The merciful and gracious God took vengeance against the inventions of His people. The inventions spoken here are things and ideas - eg. women pastors, and gibberish 'tongues' - they add their own inventions to the worship of God. God's vengeance indicates that these inventions are abominations in His sight. Separate yourselves from those given to their own inventions in matters of doctrines and practices in the Christian religion. "They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger." Deut 32:16
I will leave some comments on your post. Please feel free to ask further if you have any further queries. We will learn together, and see what God has spoken in the Scriptures.
It's Nicole (again). I really don't know how to phrase my question because my ideas are rather incoherent but I'll try to illustrate what I'm trying to say. Rom 8:29 says "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers ", so does that mean the places in heaven are already predestined and fixed?
## I do understand the essence of your inquiry. Any thinking person would have to wrestle with this 'apparent' contradiction. However, there is no contradiction at all. Your inquiry has to do with the relationship between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. There is perfect harmony between DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY and HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY - rightly understood. These two biblical truths are most essential for a proper and correct understanding of the biblical doctrine of salvation. Your inquiry touches on so many biblical truths, that I am not sure where to begin.
You asked, "so does that mean the places in heaven are already predestined and fixed?"
My simple answer is, Yes, and Yes; already predestined and fixed those who shall be in heaven. And the Scriptures provide ample and plain evidence of this biblical truth.
We will start with the passage you quoted, i.e. Rom 8:29-30. Read it real slow and take in the plain truth stated there. You and I are only interested in what the Scriptures declare and embrace its teaching.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
First, let us observe some basic truths asserted here in this passage.
1. All the activities mentioned – foreknow, predestinate, call, justify, glorify - are all God’s activities. They are not only God’s activities, they are wholly divine and monergistic, i.e. God acting sovereignly and freely, without the co-operation or assistance of those acted upon.
2. All the divine activities mentioned are stated in the SIMPLE PAST TENSE. In the purpose of God, all these activities are as good as have happened and completed actions.
3. All the divine activities mentioned are SOLELY AND COMPLETELY by free and sovereign divine grace - of pure and unadulterated divine grace in our eternal salvation, none is conditioned on anything outside of God. From beginning to end - note the unbroken chain between foreknowing and glorification - God alone is the cause and author of those actions.
4. The EXACT SAME NUMBER of people is the subject of EACH of all those activities – “whom he did… he also… whom he did, he also...” All these divine activities embrace and apply to exactly the SAME people… not one less, and not one more.
What this passage is declaring is this:
- God foreknew (loved beforehand, i.e. even before the foundation of the world) a certain number of people out of the fallen race of Adam)...
- God predestinated (predetermined their eternal destination (destiny, even heaven) the same people to eternal glory...
- God acted in time to bring the same number of people to eternal glory, through His Son and His Spirit.
- He called each one of them who were dead in trespasses and sins to life and eternal salvation in Jesus Christ...
- He justified them by removing their just condemnation from them and imputed to them the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Sins bring condemnation and eternal death. Righteousness brings forgiveness and life. But it is the righteousness of Christ ALONE that brings forgiveness and eternal life.
- Those whom God has freely given eternal life, i.e. who are God's children, are the object of the gospel ministry, to gather them into churches.
- He glorified them by resurrecting them to eternal glory and blessedness at Christ's second coming. But this is spoken of in the simple past tense because, in the eternal purpose of God, the glorification of His chosen people is as good as a past and completed event because of its absolute certainty of coming to pass.
See the solid unbroken chain: God foreknew a people... He predestinated these same people to eternal glory. He called these same people out of their sin and condemnation to righteousness and eternal life. He justified these same people... and He glorified the same people. Not one more nor one less. God has FIXED it - by His sovereignty - to bring a fixed certain number of lake-of-fire deserving sinners to heaven.
God by His sovereign grace, has not left the whole human race of sinners to their just and deserved desert of the lake of fire. He chose to save some, and by His own will and power, assuredly bring them to eternal glory.
I understand that is what the passage says. Others may disagree vehemently. Ask them to give their interpretation.
Here is another passage with a plain message. The Bible speaks of the Book of Life in which many names are written. WHEN were those names written?
Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow-labourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Those names in the Book of Life were written BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD - the names of those whom God had foreknown and predestinated. These are the people God gave to Christ that He might come and save them to the uttermost from their condemnation. Jesus said:
John 6 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Those in the Book of Life are those whom God the Father had chosen and gave to Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ came to save those ONLY, not one more and not one less. John 17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." 'As many as' means just that - not one more and not one less.
Many lying preachers teach that names are written in the Book of Life when a person believes! They are liars. There are people who believe the gospel because their names were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, and God has called them to eternal life in time and enabled them to believe the truth of the gospel.
Here is another passage for your consideration, Ephesians 1
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Meditate on this passage, and draw out some conclusions.
You asked, "so does that mean the places in heaven are already predestined and fixed?"
Imagine for a moment, Nicole! Consider this question carefully.
If God DID NOT already predestinate and fix to save and bring some people to heaven, then what would happen? If God did not foreknow, predestinate, call, justify and glorify any sinner, BUT instead left the whole matter to sinners to choose, would any sinner ever be found in heaven?
If God leaves it to HELL DESERVING sinners to choose and decide for themselves whether they would want to go to heaven or not, would there be one found in heaven? Ah, I praise and bless the Lord that He is the God who chooses to save poor sinners who are hell-bent rebels against God.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Would these choose heaven??????
I will respond to the other part later. If you have further questions, please feel free to ask
your friend in Christ.
sing
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| The begetting, and the parenting of these children are two distinct activities. |
Hi Pastor Lau,
Thank you for the reply! (I really hope it doesn't trouble you much because I have the impression that pastors are very busy people) Understanding what you wrote I suppose I would continue asking what I wrote previously, which is:
Then since God has already chosen His people, are the things churches do now, things like missions and street evangelism and door-to-door evangelism, in vain? Matt 28:19 does say that we should "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" which I suppose things like youth rallies and mission trips are purposed for. Then again, if God has predestined already who would go to Heaven and who would not, it kinda means that no matter what we do, no matter how much we pray for intercession, it does not alter God's decision, does it? But then again is it because we do not know who exactly are the elect and those who are not, that we have outreach events and pray for the salvation of non-believers/pre-believers? And that perhaps outreach events and missions are God's channel to those predestined who...have yet to hear the gospel? (I did say I was incoherent and poor at structuring questions, so heh, do pardon me)
I think I meant for this paragraph and the first question on whether places in heaven were predestined and fixed to be of the same issue somehow subsumed together. Oh, and also, if the places in heaven are already fixed then why actually are the non-elect doing on earth? (somehow I find this phrasing rather awkward, but the idea is hmm something like that)
And about the second paragraph too (hmm basically on what would the consequences for backslidden Christians/those who don't live according to the Word).
Yup that's it for now (= Have a nice day!
====
Dear Sister Nicole,
Let us continue to learn.
You reasoned thus:
“Then since God has already chosen His people, are the things churches do now, things like missions and street evangelism and door-to-door evangelism, in vain? Matt 28:19 does say that we should "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" which I suppose things like youth rallies and mission trips are purposed for. Then again, if God has predestined already who would go to Heaven and who would not, it kinda means that no matter what we do, no matter how much we pray for intercession, it does not alter God's decision, does it? But then again is it because we do not know who exactly are the elect and those who are not, that we have outreach events and pray for the salvation of non-believers/pre-believers? And that perhaps outreach events and missions are God's channel to those predestined who...have yet to hear the gospel? (I did say I was incoherent and poor at structuring questions, so heh, do pardon me).”
1. There isn't the least bit of incoherence in your reasoning. However, there is a serious error in your reasoning. This error arises from a serious misunderstanding between the subject matter of divine sovereignty and the subject matter of human responsibility. [Not to worry, even popular theologians have messed up as well...] Nicole, if you can begin to understand and distinguish the DIFFERENCE between the subject matter of divine sovereignty and the subject matter of human responsibility, then you shall be way ahead of many pastors and theologians who are so confused on a very important biblical truth. Endeavour to appreciate this statement: A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Let me begin by illustrating the clear distinction between the subject matter of divine sovereignty and the subject of human responsibility with a simple and obvious example. Nicole, you were born of your parents, i.e. you were brought into BEING entirely by the 'sovereign' activities of your parents. It is 'sovereign' in the sense that it was entirely their decision and activities that brought about your BEING, i.e. you have absolutely nothing to do with it... you did not even exist, and so can't possibly have 'contributed' or 'assisted' or 'chose' or 'agreed/disagreed' in any way to your conception and coming into BEING. Your conception in the womb of your mother was entirely the 'sovereign' decision and activities of your parents. You were not involved in any remotest sense - you did not exist. They alone were solely the cause of bringing you into BEING, in giving birth to you. The idea of your responsibility in the whole matter of your CONCEPTION and coming into BEING is absolutely a non-issue, it is entirely irrelevant. Your responsibility plays NO ROLE whatsoever in your coming into BEING. Your conception and BEING are entirely attributed to the 'sovereign' decision and activity of your parents.
After you have been brought into BEING, your WELL-BEING is dependent and conditioned upon many human responsibilities. Please understand your BEING (existence) and the WELL-BEING of your existence. Your well-being as a babe and a child growing up depends very much upon the responsibilities of many, and diverse human agents. This is so obvious that I do not need to elaborate.
Human responsibilities - whether of one's own or that of other fellow human - are ABSOLUTELY necessary for the WELL-BEING of a man. So, many responsible persons, besides your parents who brought you into BEING, have contributed to your WELL-BEING, to make you what you are today. And your WELL-BEING, i.e. your happiness and usefulness, will continue to depend very much upon human responsibilities of your own and that of others.
Consider this: two persons, equally brought into BEING by the 'sovereign' acts of their parents, their WELL-BEING may be so different due to the degree of human responsibilities that attended their lives. I do hope you understand the point of divine sovereignty and human responsibility that is illustrated. They are totally distinct and separate. One deals with BRINGING INTO BEING of a person, and the other deals with the WELL-BEING of the person that has been brought into being. It is when this distinction is not recognized and understood that leads to so much confusion and serious errors - e.g. illustrated in your reasoning quoted above.
Now let us speak of the same principle of divine sovereignty and human responsibility in the spiritual realm - the spiritual birth of a child of God. A child of God came into being ENTIRELY by the sovereign and free activity of God ALONE. God alone acted upon a sinner SPIRITUALLY dead in trespasses and sin. He gives eternal life to a sinner who is dead in trespasses and sin - without the help and assistance or cooperation of any human. No man ever helped God in fathering His children. He does everything Himself - from foreknowing and predestinating them, to effectually calling them out of sin and death, to justifying them from their condemnation... and preserving them to eternal glory.
We read in John 1:12-13:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[Simple grammar tells that the new birth PRECEDE ('were born') the activity of believing ('believe'). Theologically, without the new birth, the spiritual activities of receiving and believing are utterly impossible. Life MUST PRECEDE any activity of that life. Eternal life as the result of the new birth MUST PRECEDE the activities of that eternal life from God.]
It is stated emphatically that a believer, a child of God was born - not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. It is plain and obvious that only a child of God is able to believe in Jesus' name. A sinner is still dead in trespasses and sin (i.e. spiritually dead, without spiritual life). A sinner is able to believe BECAUSE he HAS BEEN born again of God - God has regenerated him with eternal life. And all human agency and instrumentality are completely excluded - 'not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man.' God Himself ALONE is emphatically recognized and acknowledged as the SOLE and WHOLE cause of the new birth. God ALONE gives eternal life to a man dead in trespasses and sin.
Read this passage slowly: (my comments in italic.)
John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [Unless a man is born again OF God, he cannot see BECAUSE he is SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins, and a spiritually dead man has no spiritual sight. Please note that Jesus is making a statement of truth; He is not telling Nicodemus that he personally must be born again.]
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? [Nicodemus, a learned religious teacher did not understand this basic truth of the new birth. He was speaking of the physical/natural birth, while Jesus is speaking of the spiritual/new birth.]
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Consider this: two persons, equally brought into BEING by the 'sovereign' acts of their parents, their WELL-BEING may be so different due to the degree of human responsibilities that attended their lives. I do hope you understand the point of divine sovereignty and human responsibility that is illustrated. They are totally distinct and separate. One deals with BRINGING INTO BEING of a person, and the other deals with the WELL-BEING of the person that has been brought into being. It is when this distinction is not recognized and understood that leads to so much confusion and serious errors - e.g. illustrated in your reasoning quoted above.
Now let us speak of the same principle of divine sovereignty and human responsibility in the spiritual realm - the spiritual birth of a child of God. A child of God came into being ENTIRELY by the sovereign and free activity of God ALONE. God alone acted upon a sinner SPIRITUALLY dead in trespasses and sin. He gives eternal life to a sinner who is dead in trespasses and sin - without the help and assistance or cooperation of any human. No man ever helped God in fathering His children. He does everything Himself - from foreknowing and predestinating them, to effectually calling them out of sin and death, to justifying them from their condemnation... and preserving them to eternal glory.
We read in John 1:12-13:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[Simple grammar tells that the new birth PRECEDE ('were born') the activity of believing ('believe'). Theologically, without the new birth, the spiritual activities of receiving and believing are utterly impossible. Life MUST PRECEDE any activity of that life. Eternal life as the result of the new birth MUST PRECEDE the activities of that eternal life from God.]
It is stated emphatically that a believer, a child of God was born - not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. It is plain and obvious that only a child of God is able to believe in Jesus' name. A sinner is still dead in trespasses and sin (i.e. spiritually dead, without spiritual life). A sinner is able to believe BECAUSE he HAS BEEN born again of God - God has regenerated him with eternal life. And all human agency and instrumentality are completely excluded - 'not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man.' God Himself ALONE is emphatically recognized and acknowledged as the SOLE and WHOLE cause of the new birth. God ALONE gives eternal life to a man dead in trespasses and sin.
Read this passage slowly: (my comments in italic.)
John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [Unless a man is born again OF God, he cannot see BECAUSE he is SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins, and a spiritually dead man has no spiritual sight. Please note that Jesus is making a statement of truth; He is not telling Nicodemus that he personally must be born again.]
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? [Nicodemus, a learned religious teacher did not understand this basic truth of the new birth. He was speaking of the physical/natural birth, while Jesus is speaking of the spiritual/new birth.]
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[Jesus repeated the solemn truth. 'Born of water' refers to our natural/physical birth through the activities of our parents. 'Born of the Spirit' refers to the spiritual birth by the sovereign act of Spirit of God. Without the new birth from above, there is no 'seeing' nor 'entering' the kingdom of God.]
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
['flesh' refers to the sinful nature with which we were conceived and born. That is what every man is by nature - flesh.]
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[the new birth by the Spirit of God is absolutely essential, without which, sinners are spiritually dead... in enmity against God, loves their sins, and chooses the broad way to hell. Men must be born again... and God alone can give the new birth... and HE does it sovereignly and freely - without man's assistance or cooperation. This is asserted in the most powerful manner in the next verse]
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[The sovereign and freeness of the activity of the Spirit of God in regenerating a spiritually dead sinner is likened to the sovereign and freeness of the activity of the wind. No human can, at any time, direct or assist to alter where, when and how the wind blows. It is entirely by the sovereign and free choice of the wind - as to where, when and how the wind blows. So ALSO is every one that is born of God. Not a single one is excepted.]
I hope you begin to see the distinction between the subject matter of divine sovereignty in giving us eternal life and making us fit for heaven and the subject matter of human responsibility in ensuring the well-being of those who possess eternal life as they make their way to heaven.
Let us now consider the place, role and purpose of human responsibility.
You reasoned:
“Then since God has already chosen His people, are the things churches do now, things like missions and street evangelism and door-to-door evangelism, in vain? Matt 28:19 does say that we should "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" which I suppose things like youth rallies and mission trips are purposed for. Then again, if God has predestined already who would go to Heaven and who would not, it kinda means that no matter what we do, no matter how much we pray for intercession, it does not alter God's decision, does it? But then again is it because we do not know who exactly are the elect and those who are not, that we have outreach events and pray for the salvation of non-believers/pre-believers? And that perhaps outreach events and missions are God's channel to those predestined who...have yet to hear the gospel? (I did say I was incoherent and poor at structuring questions, so heh, do pardon me).”
God has indeed already chosen His people and destined them for eternal glory. God has also regenerated them and gave them eternal life, making them fit for eternal glory. But God is NOT ONLY interested in making His chosen people fit for heaven. He is ALSO interested in the WELL-BEING of His children as they make their journey through this world to their eternal glory.
Your father and mother are NOT just interested in conceiving and giving birth to you - i.e. of bringing you into BEING. Your parents are determined, I believe, after having brought you into BEING, to shoulder their responsibility to ensure your WELL-BEING as you journey through this world. Only very foolish parents will say of their newborn child, 'we have brought you into BEING. You already have an immortal soul. Our work is done. No matter what we do or fail to do, you already possess that immortal soul.' So, these parents will neglect their responsibility, and the well-being of the child is greatly harmed.
God, in His sovereign and free act, fathers His own children. He, in Jesus Christ, gave them ETERNAL salvation and made them fit for eternal glory. But God cares for their well-being as His children while on this earth. God desires His children to be nourished with spiritual food and instructed with the truth of salvation. These children of God whom God has fathered Himself needed to be gathered into gospel churches. This work of gathering God's children (in the world, but no longer of the world) into churches is given to the apostles and the churches. That is what Mt 28:19-20 is all about.
Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (ethnoi), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Please read this passage slowly, and soak in what it ACTUALLY stated here. Read it again slowly.
Now consider these simple questions: try answering them, please. The exercise will help you in understanding the issue better.
1. What EXACTLY were the apostles commanded to do?
- Were they commanded to help God to produce His children?
- Were they commanded to help God gather sinners for heaven?
That is what very many preachers and pastors think they are called to do - they are needed to help God to turn goats into sheep, to gather sinners out of hell into heaven.
2. WHOM do you think the apostles were commanded to teach and baptize?
- Who are those that Jesus had in mind when He gave the commandment to the apostles?
- Are they to teach God's children or those who are not, i.e. spiritually dead?
- Is it possible to teach spiritual things to those who are spiritually dead? Would Jesus ask his apostles to do such an impossible task? Is it possible to teach spiritual truth to those who are NOT God's children, to those who are STILL dead in trespasses and sin? Or, the apostles' work was to preach and teach the children of God, i.e. to make DISCIPLES of those who are ALREADY God's children?
3. Of WHOM were the apostles expected to make disciples?
- Of those who are already children of God (born again by God's own sovereign grace and power)?
- Or of those still spiritually dead?
- In the natural realm, recruits can only be made out of those who are physically alive... No one goes to the cemetery to make recruits of any sort!
4. For WHOSE benefits is the preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel intended?
- For God's children, or for those who are dead in trespasses and sin?
- Is the spiritual food for the children of God or for those still spiritually dead?
- Is the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ intended for the children of God, or for those who still spiritually dead?
5. What is the NATURE of the benefits that the human responsibilities of preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel bring to the intended recipients?
- Do they bring blessings of ETERNAL NATURE - e.g. qualify them for heaven? makes them fit for heaven? - for the recipients? Does the ministry of preaching and teaching save anyone from hell, and bring anyone into heaven? Or God Himself has taken care of that matter ALL BY HIMSELF in giving them eternal life in the new birth by His own sovereign and free grace?
- Do they bring blessings of TEMPORAL natures - e.g. blessings pertaining to their redeemed life here now as they journey to their eternal glory? Do believing and repenting save anyone from eternal condemnation and hell? Or is it ONLY those that God HAS SAVED with eternal life that is able to believe and repent?
- What do the human responsibilities of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and repenting towards God accomplish for the person? How does believing, and repenting save the person?
- Do the acts of human responsibility save in the same SENSE and MANNER that the acts of God's sovereign and free grace save?
Give careful thought to these questions.
May our Lord grant you understanding to what has been written.
I will continue later.
your friend in Christ Jesus
sing
Hi Nicole,
Having elaborated on the distinction between the subject matters of divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Let me now give simple answers to your questions below.
“Then since God has already chosen His people, are the things churches do now, things like missions and street evangelism and door-to-door evangelism, in vain? Matt 28:19 does say that we should "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" which I suppose things like youth rallies and mission trips are purposed for. Then again, if God has predestined already who would go to Heaven and who would not, it kinda means that no matter what we do, no matter how much we pray for intercession, it does not alter God's decision, does it? But then again is it because we do not know who exactly are the elect and those who are not, that we have outreach events and pray for the salvation of non-believers/pre-believers? And that perhaps outreach events and missions are God's channel to those predestined who...have yet to hear the gospel? (I did say I was incoherent and poor at structuring questions, so heh, do pardon me).”
Then since God has already chosen His people, are the things churches do now, things like missions and street evangelism and door-to-door evangelism, in vain?
Answer: In vain? Absolutely not. Evangelism serves the EXACT purpose for which God has ordained it... for the calling out and gathering His children (whom God has already made fit for heaven by His own sovereign activity of giving them eternal life) into NT churches, that they may be made disciples, and taught the truth of their salvation, and live godly. Nourishing a child that has been born is most assuredly not in vain, but most necessary for the WELL-BEING of the child.
Then again, if God has predestined already who would go to Heaven and who would not, it kinda means that no matter what we do, no matter how much we pray for intercession, it does not alter God's decision, does it?
No activity of man can ever alter God's decision on who would go to heaven. God, Himself has fixed that by His sovereign will and purpose. He has chosen and written their names in the Book of Life, and destined them for heaven - all done before the foundation of the world. However, what we do will affect the WELL-BEING of God's children here on earth. Some of God's children are well taught and trained in righteousness - these are sober, godly and live a righteous life. Your human responsibility determines your WELL-BEING as a child of God. So human responsibility, yours and others do MATTER A VERY GREAT DEAL to your spiritual well-being as a child of God. So many irresponsible, careless and negligent children of God live pathetic and handicapped lives... a disgrace to God their Father. They enjoy the grace of God in vain - 2Co 6:1 "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." They are ignorant of so much biblical truth, they are indifferent to sound doctrines, and godly practices - messing up their lives, piercing their hearts with grief and sorrow.
But no amount of human responsibility has ever produced one child of God. God does not need human responsibility to produce His own children. However, God has ordained human responsibility to be instrumental in the well-being of His children.
But then again is it because we do not know who exactly are the elect and those who are not, that we have outreach events and pray for the salvation of non-believers/pre-believers? And that perhaps outreach events and missions are God's channel to those predestined who...have yet to hear the gospel?
It is true that God alone knows who are His elect, and who are His children (the elect whom God has regenerated with eternal life). The preaching ministry is the instrumental means to seek out God's children from among the vast multitudes in the world. The gospel is good news for God's children alone. The gospel is foolishness to all the others. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18."
The preaching ministry is God's appointed instrument to gather His children into churches, into spiritual homes - so that they may be taught the truth, and trained in righteous living - to observe all things whatsoever Jesus Christ has commanded us, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world." Titus 2.
Note a very careful distinction here - i.e. the BEING, and WELL-BEING.
- God appointed the gospel ministry NOT as an instrument to produce His children - that's a lie many people believe. They are very silly and deceived. They speak like a midwife who claims that she was instrumental to your conception in your mother's womb! Or put it another way - they speak like a farmer who insists that the wind will blow only if he is standing under the tree... (see John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." - i.e. the Spirit of God is impotent to bring the spiritual birth without their presence and aids! How self-conceited and ignorant!
- God appointed the gospel ministry as an instrument to seek out His children in the world and to gather them into spiritual homes. It is the instrument appointed by God to make disciples of His children whom He has begotten all by Himself.
I think the second issue is perhaps easier to phrase. Jo-Hanan did say that "there are misguided, deluded children of God but regardless they still go to heaven". I did say somewhere along the lines that my catholic friend thinks its okay for sex out of marriage and that homosexuality isn't a sin and that it's okay etc etc. I'm not quite sure if quoting Matt 7:21""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." is apt in this case, but well it sort of contradicts. Perhaps you could shed some light onto that verse (and Rom 10:13 too) since they might be in different contexts
God and God alone make a person fit for heaven - by giving them eternal life at new birth. A person's place is SOLELY determined by God's foreknowledge and predestination, effectual calling, justification, and glorification. There are many of God's children who are misguided, deluded, self-conceited, and deceived children of God - both in doctrines and in practices- who nevertheless have been made fit for heaven, and shall be brought into heaven. A man's place in heaven is determined by God, and God alone. The doctrinal soundness and godliness of a man's life are affected to a large degree by human responsibility - that of his pastor/teacher, and his own. Doctrinal soundness and godliness of life affect ONLY the WELL-BEING of a child of God here on earth.
God condemns sex outside marriage. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Those who approve what God condemns may prove themselves to be among those whom the Lord Jesus mentioned in Mt 7:21.
A child of God who approves and practices what God his Father condemns will suffer severe chastisement and consequences of sins in THIS LIFE. He will make a shipwreck of his faith. He would mess up his life like the prodigal son - UNTIL he comes to his senses. God may even cut short the natural life of His children - see 1Cor 11:29 "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep." Many 'sleep' - their lives on earth cut short!
Matthew 7:21 is indeed a solemn truth. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
'Not everyone'! Think about the statement carefully. This statement DOES NOT say that everyone who does the will of God is also doctrinally sound. Only God's children could do the will of the Father. This ALSO does not mean that every child of God does the will of the Father.
Please note also, that the 'kingdom of heaven' is NOT, NOT, NOT, heaven itself. To equate the two is a great, and common error. One's entrance into heaven is NOT conditioned upon anything in man. A Jew may belong to the earthly kingdom of Israel - that's his birthright as a Jew. But if he does not do the will of the Father, he is not eligible to enter the spiritual kingdom of heaven. The NT churches are the manifestation of the spiritual kingdom of God on earth.
Your Catholic friend who approves what God condemns is a shame and disgrace and reproach to his Roman Catholic Church. He may belong to RCC. He is most certainly not qualified for membership in the kingdom of heaven established by Jesus Christ on earth. The Church of Jesus Christ should expel such a man, and treat him as a godless heathen - no matter what he claims until he turns from those sins.
Romans 10:
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Please ask yourself these 2 questions:
- Who is it that shall call upon the name of the Lord? God's children or those who are dead in trespasses and in enmity against God?
- Him who call upon the name of the Lord, from what shall he be saved from?
If you can give correct answers, then you have understood something from all that I have shown you from the Holy Scriptures.
Thanks! (and for the previous reply on women being pastors too. Would it be okay to ask my pastors why there are women pastors in my church? hmm.)
Nicole, it is your God's given right and privilege to ask, and demand adequate answers, from your pastor. It is your pastor's obligation to teach you what God has revealed in the Scriptures, not fables. And it is your obligation to separate from those who would reject God's word and promote fables.
I hope you begin to see the distinction between the subject matter of divine sovereignty in giving us eternal life and making us fit for heaven and the subject matter of human responsibility in ensuring the well-being of those who possess eternal life as they make their way to heaven.
Let us now consider the place, role and purpose of human responsibility.
You reasoned:
“Then since God has already chosen His people, are the things churches do now, things like missions and street evangelism and door-to-door evangelism, in vain? Matt 28:19 does say that we should "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" which I suppose things like youth rallies and mission trips are purposed for. Then again, if God has predestined already who would go to Heaven and who would not, it kinda means that no matter what we do, no matter how much we pray for intercession, it does not alter God's decision, does it? But then again is it because we do not know who exactly are the elect and those who are not, that we have outreach events and pray for the salvation of non-believers/pre-believers? And that perhaps outreach events and missions are God's channel to those predestined who...have yet to hear the gospel? (I did say I was incoherent and poor at structuring questions, so heh, do pardon me).”
God has indeed already chosen His people and destined them for eternal glory. God has also regenerated them and gave them eternal life, making them fit for eternal glory. But God is NOT ONLY interested in making His chosen people fit for heaven. He is ALSO interested in the WELL-BEING of His children as they make their journey through this world to their eternal glory.
Your father and mother are NOT just interested in conceiving and giving birth to you - i.e. of bringing you into BEING. Your parents are determined, I believe, after having brought you into BEING, to shoulder their responsibility to ensure your WELL-BEING as you journey through this world. Only very foolish parents will say of their newborn child, 'we have brought you into BEING. You already have an immortal soul. Our work is done. No matter what we do or fail to do, you already possess that immortal soul.' So, these parents will neglect their responsibility, and the well-being of the child is greatly harmed.
God, in His sovereign and free act, fathers His own children. He, in Jesus Christ, gave them ETERNAL salvation and made them fit for eternal glory. But God cares for their well-being as His children while on this earth. God desires His children to be nourished with spiritual food and instructed with the truth of salvation. These children of God whom God has fathered Himself needed to be gathered into gospel churches. This work of gathering God's children (in the world, but no longer of the world) into churches is given to the apostles and the churches. That is what Mt 28:19-20 is all about.
Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (ethnoi), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Please read this passage slowly, and soak in what it ACTUALLY stated here. Read it again slowly.
Now consider these simple questions: try answering them, please. The exercise will help you in understanding the issue better.
1. What EXACTLY were the apostles commanded to do?
- Were they commanded to help God to produce His children?
- Were they commanded to help God gather sinners for heaven?
That is what very many preachers and pastors think they are called to do - they are needed to help God to turn goats into sheep, to gather sinners out of hell into heaven.
2. WHOM do you think the apostles were commanded to teach and baptize?
- Who are those that Jesus had in mind when He gave the commandment to the apostles?
- Are they to teach God's children or those who are not, i.e. spiritually dead?
- Is it possible to teach spiritual things to those who are spiritually dead? Would Jesus ask his apostles to do such an impossible task? Is it possible to teach spiritual truth to those who are NOT God's children, to those who are STILL dead in trespasses and sin? Or, the apostles' work was to preach and teach the children of God, i.e. to make DISCIPLES of those who are ALREADY God's children?
3. Of WHOM were the apostles expected to make disciples?
- Of those who are already children of God (born again by God's own sovereign grace and power)?
- Or of those still spiritually dead?
- In the natural realm, recruits can only be made out of those who are physically alive... No one goes to the cemetery to make recruits of any sort!
4. For WHOSE benefits is the preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel intended?
- For God's children, or for those who are dead in trespasses and sin?
- Is the spiritual food for the children of God or for those still spiritually dead?
- Is the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ intended for the children of God, or for those who still spiritually dead?
5. What is the NATURE of the benefits that the human responsibilities of preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel bring to the intended recipients?
- Do they bring blessings of ETERNAL NATURE - e.g. qualify them for heaven? makes them fit for heaven? - for the recipients? Does the ministry of preaching and teaching save anyone from hell, and bring anyone into heaven? Or God Himself has taken care of that matter ALL BY HIMSELF in giving them eternal life in the new birth by His own sovereign and free grace?
- Do they bring blessings of TEMPORAL natures - e.g. blessings pertaining to their redeemed life here now as they journey to their eternal glory? Do believing and repenting save anyone from eternal condemnation and hell? Or is it ONLY those that God HAS SAVED with eternal life that is able to believe and repent?
- What do the human responsibilities of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and repenting towards God accomplish for the person? How does believing, and repenting save the person?
- Do the acts of human responsibility save in the same SENSE and MANNER that the acts of God's sovereign and free grace save?
Give careful thought to these questions.
May our Lord grant you understanding to what has been written.
I will continue later.
your friend in Christ Jesus
sing
 |
| To know God and to live in obedience to Him is heaven on earth. |
Hi Nicole,
Having elaborated on the distinction between the subject matters of divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Let me now give simple answers to your questions below.
“Then since God has already chosen His people, are the things churches do now, things like missions and street evangelism and door-to-door evangelism, in vain? Matt 28:19 does say that we should "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" which I suppose things like youth rallies and mission trips are purposed for. Then again, if God has predestined already who would go to Heaven and who would not, it kinda means that no matter what we do, no matter how much we pray for intercession, it does not alter God's decision, does it? But then again is it because we do not know who exactly are the elect and those who are not, that we have outreach events and pray for the salvation of non-believers/pre-believers? And that perhaps outreach events and missions are God's channel to those predestined who...have yet to hear the gospel? (I did say I was incoherent and poor at structuring questions, so heh, do pardon me).”
Then since God has already chosen His people, are the things churches do now, things like missions and street evangelism and door-to-door evangelism, in vain?
Answer: In vain? Absolutely not. Evangelism serves the EXACT purpose for which God has ordained it... for the calling out and gathering His children (whom God has already made fit for heaven by His own sovereign activity of giving them eternal life) into NT churches, that they may be made disciples, and taught the truth of their salvation, and live godly. Nourishing a child that has been born is most assuredly not in vain, but most necessary for the WELL-BEING of the child.
Then again, if God has predestined already who would go to Heaven and who would not, it kinda means that no matter what we do, no matter how much we pray for intercession, it does not alter God's decision, does it?
No activity of man can ever alter God's decision on who would go to heaven. God, Himself has fixed that by His sovereign will and purpose. He has chosen and written their names in the Book of Life, and destined them for heaven - all done before the foundation of the world. However, what we do will affect the WELL-BEING of God's children here on earth. Some of God's children are well taught and trained in righteousness - these are sober, godly and live a righteous life. Your human responsibility determines your WELL-BEING as a child of God. So human responsibility, yours and others do MATTER A VERY GREAT DEAL to your spiritual well-being as a child of God. So many irresponsible, careless and negligent children of God live pathetic and handicapped lives... a disgrace to God their Father. They enjoy the grace of God in vain - 2Co 6:1 "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." They are ignorant of so much biblical truth, they are indifferent to sound doctrines, and godly practices - messing up their lives, piercing their hearts with grief and sorrow.
But no amount of human responsibility has ever produced one child of God. God does not need human responsibility to produce His own children. However, God has ordained human responsibility to be instrumental in the well-being of His children.
But then again is it because we do not know who exactly are the elect and those who are not, that we have outreach events and pray for the salvation of non-believers/pre-believers? And that perhaps outreach events and missions are God's channel to those predestined who...have yet to hear the gospel?
It is true that God alone knows who are His elect, and who are His children (the elect whom God has regenerated with eternal life). The preaching ministry is the instrumental means to seek out God's children from among the vast multitudes in the world. The gospel is good news for God's children alone. The gospel is foolishness to all the others. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18."
The preaching ministry is God's appointed instrument to gather His children into churches, into spiritual homes - so that they may be taught the truth, and trained in righteous living - to observe all things whatsoever Jesus Christ has commanded us, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world." Titus 2.
Note a very careful distinction here - i.e. the BEING, and WELL-BEING.
- God appointed the gospel ministry NOT as an instrument to produce His children - that's a lie many people believe. They are very silly and deceived. They speak like a midwife who claims that she was instrumental to your conception in your mother's womb! Or put it another way - they speak like a farmer who insists that the wind will blow only if he is standing under the tree... (see John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." - i.e. the Spirit of God is impotent to bring the spiritual birth without their presence and aids! How self-conceited and ignorant!
- God appointed the gospel ministry as an instrument to seek out His children in the world and to gather them into spiritual homes. It is the instrument appointed by God to make disciples of His children whom He has begotten all by Himself.
I think the second issue is perhaps easier to phrase. Jo-Hanan did say that "there are misguided, deluded children of God but regardless they still go to heaven". I did say somewhere along the lines that my catholic friend thinks its okay for sex out of marriage and that homosexuality isn't a sin and that it's okay etc etc. I'm not quite sure if quoting Matt 7:21""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." is apt in this case, but well it sort of contradicts. Perhaps you could shed some light onto that verse (and Rom 10:13 too) since they might be in different contexts
God and God alone make a person fit for heaven - by giving them eternal life at new birth. A person's place is SOLELY determined by God's foreknowledge and predestination, effectual calling, justification, and glorification. There are many of God's children who are misguided, deluded, self-conceited, and deceived children of God - both in doctrines and in practices- who nevertheless have been made fit for heaven, and shall be brought into heaven. A man's place in heaven is determined by God, and God alone. The doctrinal soundness and godliness of a man's life are affected to a large degree by human responsibility - that of his pastor/teacher, and his own. Doctrinal soundness and godliness of life affect ONLY the WELL-BEING of a child of God here on earth.
God condemns sex outside marriage. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Those who approve what God condemns may prove themselves to be among those whom the Lord Jesus mentioned in Mt 7:21.
A child of God who approves and practices what God his Father condemns will suffer severe chastisement and consequences of sins in THIS LIFE. He will make a shipwreck of his faith. He would mess up his life like the prodigal son - UNTIL he comes to his senses. God may even cut short the natural life of His children - see 1Cor 11:29 "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep." Many 'sleep' - their lives on earth cut short!
Matthew 7:21 is indeed a solemn truth. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
'Not everyone'! Think about the statement carefully. This statement DOES NOT say that everyone who does the will of God is also doctrinally sound. Only God's children could do the will of the Father. This ALSO does not mean that every child of God does the will of the Father.
Please note also, that the 'kingdom of heaven' is NOT, NOT, NOT, heaven itself. To equate the two is a great, and common error. One's entrance into heaven is NOT conditioned upon anything in man. A Jew may belong to the earthly kingdom of Israel - that's his birthright as a Jew. But if he does not do the will of the Father, he is not eligible to enter the spiritual kingdom of heaven. The NT churches are the manifestation of the spiritual kingdom of God on earth.
Your Catholic friend who approves what God condemns is a shame and disgrace and reproach to his Roman Catholic Church. He may belong to RCC. He is most certainly not qualified for membership in the kingdom of heaven established by Jesus Christ on earth. The Church of Jesus Christ should expel such a man, and treat him as a godless heathen - no matter what he claims until he turns from those sins.
Romans 10:
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Please ask yourself these 2 questions:
- Who is it that shall call upon the name of the Lord? God's children or those who are dead in trespasses and in enmity against God?
- Him who call upon the name of the Lord, from what shall he be saved from?
If you can give correct answers, then you have understood something from all that I have shown you from the Holy Scriptures.
Thanks! (and for the previous reply on women being pastors too. Would it be okay to ask my pastors why there are women pastors in my church? hmm.)
Nicole, it is your God's given right and privilege to ask, and demand adequate answers, from your pastor. It is your pastor's obligation to teach you what God has revealed in the Scriptures, not fables. And it is your obligation to separate from those who would reject God's word and promote fables.
(2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.)
Don't be among those who turn their ears away from the truth. Don't let your ears be turned unto fables.
Truth demands allegiance; errors require abhorrence.
May our Lord bless you to understand His word.
your friend in Christ,
sing
Hi Nicole,
Thanks for responding to the questions. You have answered well.
I leave some comments marked ##
Q. 1. What EXACTLY were the apostles commanded to do?
Nic: Nope they were not commanded to help God to produce His children, because God's sovereign. And also they were not commanded to help God gather sinners for heaven because as it is written it is by God's will that people are able to go to heaven and not by what we do...right?
##: The apostles were commanded to make disciples of God's children, whom God himself has begotten by His own sovereign power and grace. God's act of producing His children is distinct and prior to, and makes possible the apostles' act of making disciples out of God's children.
Q2. WHOM do you think the apostles were commanded to teach and baptize?
- Who are those that Jesus had in mind when He gave the commandment to the apostles?
Nic: The people God gave to have eternal life, is it correct? Those people whom God by His grace forgave and justified.
##: The people whom God have regenerated, i.e. God's children. Those who are not God's children do not have the spiritual life to receive spiritual truth.
Q. Are they to teach God's children or those who are not, i.e. spiritually dead?
Nic: I guess this is not possible since the carnal mind is against God and those spiritually dead choose to remain where they are (if John 3:20 fits).
##: Indeed, the natural man loves darkness. They recoil from the light of the gospel. It is impossible to teach the gospel truth to such people.
Q. Is it possible to teach spiritual things to those who are spiritually dead? Would Jesus ask his apostles to do such an impossible task? Is it possible to teach spiritual truth to those who are NOT God's children, to those who are STILL dead in trespasses and sin? Or, the apostles' work was to preach and teach the children of God, i.e. to make DISCIPLES of those who are ALREADY God's children?
Nic: Hmm yes it is not possible to teach those who are spiritually dead... then it leads me to another question which is going to be pretty incoherent again, but that's for another time.
##: 1Co 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Feel free to ask. The whole truth of God is self-consistent and in perfect harmony. When contradiction happens, it is because we have misunderstood God's word. Inconsistency occurs when we fail to rightly divide the word of truth.
Q3. Of WHOM were the apostles expected to make disciples?
- Of those who are already children of God (born again by God's own sovereign grace and power)? - Or of those still spiritually dead?
Nic: The apostles are expected to make disciples of children of God. I think I used to confuse 'children of God' and 'disciples' because I thought once a person makes a decision to accept Christ he's made a decision to follow Him and therefore is...a disciple? somewhere along those lines, and hence I thought the verse Matt 28:19-20 meant God wanted us to reach out to everyone in every nation and make disciples of many.
## The elect of God who are regenerated, i.e. born again of God, are God's children. These children of God need to be converted and be made disciples through the gospel ministry. Only a child of God is able to make a decision to receive Christ, and a child of God receives Christ when the gospel of Christ is proclaimed to him. A disciple is a child of God who follows Jesus Christ. In Mt 28:19-20, Jesus commissioned His apostles to make disciples of ALL NATIONS (Greek 'ethnoi', from which we get our 'ethnic' in English). This is because God's children are found in every ethnic group. Disciples can only be made out of God's children who are found among every people group. Rev 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."
Q4. For WHOSE benefits is the preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel intended?
- For God's children, or for those who are dead in trespasses and sin?
- Is the spiritual food for the children of God or for those still spiritually dead?
- Is the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ intended?
Nic: for the children of God, or for those who still spiritually dead?Nic: For God's children, since the preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel was purposed to umm bring those who have yet to know God (but whom God has predestined for Heaven) to Him?
## The preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel was intended for the instruction of God's children, that they may the truth of their salvation that God has accomplished for them by His free and sovereign grace.
Q5. What is the NATURE of the benefits that the human responsibilities of preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel bring to the intended recipients?
- Do they bring blessings of ETERNAL NATURE - e.g. qualifies them for heaven? makes them fit for heaven? - for the recipients? Does the ministry of preaching and teaching save anyone from hell, and bring anyone into heaven? Or God Himself has taken care of that matter ALL BY HIMSELF in giving them eternal life in the new birth by His own sovereign and free grace?
Nic: I don't think they bring blessings of eternal nature because only God can do that and we're just doing our part (the human responsibility aspect) by being obedient and do what He commanded us to... And yup I agree that God himself has taken care of that matter all by Himself in giving them eternal life in the new birth by his own sovereign and free grace.
## SPOT ON. You are making progress.
Q- Do they bring blessings of TEMPORAL natures - e.g. blessings pertaining to their redeemed life here now as they journey to their eternal glory? Do believing and repenting save anyone from eternal condemnation and hell? Or is it ONLY those that God HAS SAVED with eternal life that is able to believe and repent?
Nic: Hmm, I guess I would have to agree with that -- blessings of temporal natures. Well, I think God has saved us and given us eternal life, and those who choose to repent and believe are acknowledging that He has done that for us and are proclaiming that He's a gracious God who is ever forgiving and such? {and I was just wondering: those who are spiritually dead ignore the fact that Jesus has died for them on the cross because they are disobedient and would not want to believe Jesus has died for them and hence are dead in sin... is it right putting it this way (um, yes, again, incoherence... can't seem to place my finger on the crux of the matter)?
## The elect who are still spiritually dead will not be able to believe the fact that Jesus has died for them. This is because the benefits of Christ's death for them has not be APPLIED to them personally, i.e. the eternal life that Jesus Christ has secured for all the elect has not been applied to them personally in the new birth. Jesus secured eternal life for His own people only, the elect. "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
Jesus Christ died for His people alone, the elect, those whom God had chosen and given to Christ to redeem. Jesus DID NOT die for all. If Jesus had died for all, then all would be found in heaven. If Jesus had paid the redemption price for all, then none would be in hell. Jesus suffered hell for all His people ONLY.
Q. What does the human responsibilities of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and repenting towards God accomplish for the person? How does believing, and repenting save the person?
Nic: Well I guess the person would be able to experience God's love and live a life in abundance... like the verse Matthew 16:25 "for whosoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it" states. Believing and repenting...saves the person from the sufferings and stuff on earth I suppose...and allows for God to work in the person's life and make it good? hm
## Believing secures the right to be called sons of God. Believing saves us from errors and lies and ignorance. Believing enables us to live soberly, godly and righteously. Believing delivers from worldliness and its painful consequences. Believing saves them from this PERVERSE generation - Act 2:40.
Q. Do the acts of human responsibility save in the same SENSE and MANNER that the acts of God's sovereign and free grace save?
Nic: I think this would be an absolute no because God is the determiner of all things and we're just vessels to be used by God...
## You need to be a bit careful. You sound like you are a FATALIST or ABSOLUTER when you say, "God is the determiner of ALL things." If God is the determiner of ALL things, then what will be will be no matter what. Then there would be no legitimate place for human responsibility.
God is indeed the sovereign determiner of everything concerning the ETERNAL salvation of His people - He has to do that otherwise there would be NO salvation for anyone... all would end up in the hell they deserved. Vessels have vessels' responsibility. The Potter who forms the vessels has the Potter's sovereignty.
There is eternal salvation which God alone has fully and completely accomplished for His people. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
There is a temporal salvation ('temporal' in the sense that it pertains to this life on earth only) that God's children have to work out for themselves throughout life with fear and trembling.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
These two are separate and distinct. The former is the CAUSE, and the latter is the effect and evidence. The former is wholly monergistic - by God's sovereign grace alone through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. The latter is synergistic - by the obedient response of God's children to the word of God through the grace of God working in them.
If you can distinguish the two, you have understood a very precious truth concerning the doctrine of salvation.
May our Lord Jesus grant you understanding.
your friend in Christ,
sing
Don't be among those who turn their ears away from the truth. Don't let your ears be turned unto fables.
Truth demands allegiance; errors require abhorrence.
May our Lord bless you to understand His word.
your friend in Christ,
sing
 |
| Let the Holy Scriptures be the only infallible guide in all matters of doctrine and practice |
Hi Nicole,
Thanks for responding to the questions. You have answered well.
I leave some comments marked ##
Q. 1. What EXACTLY were the apostles commanded to do?
Nic: Nope they were not commanded to help God to produce His children, because God's sovereign. And also they were not commanded to help God gather sinners for heaven because as it is written it is by God's will that people are able to go to heaven and not by what we do...right?
##: The apostles were commanded to make disciples of God's children, whom God himself has begotten by His own sovereign power and grace. God's act of producing His children is distinct and prior to, and makes possible the apostles' act of making disciples out of God's children.
Q2. WHOM do you think the apostles were commanded to teach and baptize?
- Who are those that Jesus had in mind when He gave the commandment to the apostles?
Nic: The people God gave to have eternal life, is it correct? Those people whom God by His grace forgave and justified.
##: The people whom God have regenerated, i.e. God's children. Those who are not God's children do not have the spiritual life to receive spiritual truth.
Q. Are they to teach God's children or those who are not, i.e. spiritually dead?
Nic: I guess this is not possible since the carnal mind is against God and those spiritually dead choose to remain where they are (if John 3:20 fits).
##: Indeed, the natural man loves darkness. They recoil from the light of the gospel. It is impossible to teach the gospel truth to such people.
Q. Is it possible to teach spiritual things to those who are spiritually dead? Would Jesus ask his apostles to do such an impossible task? Is it possible to teach spiritual truth to those who are NOT God's children, to those who are STILL dead in trespasses and sin? Or, the apostles' work was to preach and teach the children of God, i.e. to make DISCIPLES of those who are ALREADY God's children?
Nic: Hmm yes it is not possible to teach those who are spiritually dead... then it leads me to another question which is going to be pretty incoherent again, but that's for another time.
##: 1Co 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Feel free to ask. The whole truth of God is self-consistent and in perfect harmony. When contradiction happens, it is because we have misunderstood God's word. Inconsistency occurs when we fail to rightly divide the word of truth.
Q3. Of WHOM were the apostles expected to make disciples?
- Of those who are already children of God (born again by God's own sovereign grace and power)? - Or of those still spiritually dead?
Nic: The apostles are expected to make disciples of children of God. I think I used to confuse 'children of God' and 'disciples' because I thought once a person makes a decision to accept Christ he's made a decision to follow Him and therefore is...a disciple? somewhere along those lines, and hence I thought the verse Matt 28:19-20 meant God wanted us to reach out to everyone in every nation and make disciples of many.
## The elect of God who are regenerated, i.e. born again of God, are God's children. These children of God need to be converted and be made disciples through the gospel ministry. Only a child of God is able to make a decision to receive Christ, and a child of God receives Christ when the gospel of Christ is proclaimed to him. A disciple is a child of God who follows Jesus Christ. In Mt 28:19-20, Jesus commissioned His apostles to make disciples of ALL NATIONS (Greek 'ethnoi', from which we get our 'ethnic' in English). This is because God's children are found in every ethnic group. Disciples can only be made out of God's children who are found among every people group. Rev 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."
Q4. For WHOSE benefits is the preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel intended?
- For God's children, or for those who are dead in trespasses and sin?
- Is the spiritual food for the children of God or for those still spiritually dead?
- Is the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ intended?
Nic: for the children of God, or for those who still spiritually dead?Nic: For God's children, since the preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel was purposed to umm bring those who have yet to know God (but whom God has predestined for Heaven) to Him?
## The preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel was intended for the instruction of God's children, that they may the truth of their salvation that God has accomplished for them by His free and sovereign grace.
Q5. What is the NATURE of the benefits that the human responsibilities of preaching and teaching ministry of the gospel bring to the intended recipients?
- Do they bring blessings of ETERNAL NATURE - e.g. qualifies them for heaven? makes them fit for heaven? - for the recipients? Does the ministry of preaching and teaching save anyone from hell, and bring anyone into heaven? Or God Himself has taken care of that matter ALL BY HIMSELF in giving them eternal life in the new birth by His own sovereign and free grace?
Nic: I don't think they bring blessings of eternal nature because only God can do that and we're just doing our part (the human responsibility aspect) by being obedient and do what He commanded us to... And yup I agree that God himself has taken care of that matter all by Himself in giving them eternal life in the new birth by his own sovereign and free grace.
## SPOT ON. You are making progress.
Q- Do they bring blessings of TEMPORAL natures - e.g. blessings pertaining to their redeemed life here now as they journey to their eternal glory? Do believing and repenting save anyone from eternal condemnation and hell? Or is it ONLY those that God HAS SAVED with eternal life that is able to believe and repent?
Nic: Hmm, I guess I would have to agree with that -- blessings of temporal natures. Well, I think God has saved us and given us eternal life, and those who choose to repent and believe are acknowledging that He has done that for us and are proclaiming that He's a gracious God who is ever forgiving and such? {and I was just wondering: those who are spiritually dead ignore the fact that Jesus has died for them on the cross because they are disobedient and would not want to believe Jesus has died for them and hence are dead in sin... is it right putting it this way (um, yes, again, incoherence... can't seem to place my finger on the crux of the matter)?
## The elect who are still spiritually dead will not be able to believe the fact that Jesus has died for them. This is because the benefits of Christ's death for them has not be APPLIED to them personally, i.e. the eternal life that Jesus Christ has secured for all the elect has not been applied to them personally in the new birth. Jesus secured eternal life for His own people only, the elect. "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
Jesus Christ died for His people alone, the elect, those whom God had chosen and given to Christ to redeem. Jesus DID NOT die for all. If Jesus had died for all, then all would be found in heaven. If Jesus had paid the redemption price for all, then none would be in hell. Jesus suffered hell for all His people ONLY.
Q. What does the human responsibilities of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and repenting towards God accomplish for the person? How does believing, and repenting save the person?
Nic: Well I guess the person would be able to experience God's love and live a life in abundance... like the verse Matthew 16:25 "for whosoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it" states. Believing and repenting...saves the person from the sufferings and stuff on earth I suppose...and allows for God to work in the person's life and make it good? hm
## Believing secures the right to be called sons of God. Believing saves us from errors and lies and ignorance. Believing enables us to live soberly, godly and righteously. Believing delivers from worldliness and its painful consequences. Believing saves them from this PERVERSE generation - Act 2:40.
Q. Do the acts of human responsibility save in the same SENSE and MANNER that the acts of God's sovereign and free grace save?
Nic: I think this would be an absolute no because God is the determiner of all things and we're just vessels to be used by God...
## You need to be a bit careful. You sound like you are a FATALIST or ABSOLUTER when you say, "God is the determiner of ALL things." If God is the determiner of ALL things, then what will be will be no matter what. Then there would be no legitimate place for human responsibility.
God is indeed the sovereign determiner of everything concerning the ETERNAL salvation of His people - He has to do that otherwise there would be NO salvation for anyone... all would end up in the hell they deserved. Vessels have vessels' responsibility. The Potter who forms the vessels has the Potter's sovereignty.
There is eternal salvation which God alone has fully and completely accomplished for His people. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
There is a temporal salvation ('temporal' in the sense that it pertains to this life on earth only) that God's children have to work out for themselves throughout life with fear and trembling.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
These two are separate and distinct. The former is the CAUSE, and the latter is the effect and evidence. The former is wholly monergistic - by God's sovereign grace alone through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. The latter is synergistic - by the obedient response of God's children to the word of God through the grace of God working in them.
If you can distinguish the two, you have understood a very precious truth concerning the doctrine of salvation.
May our Lord Jesus grant you understanding.
your friend in Christ,
sing
