Wed. Nov. 26, 2014
THE TRUTH IS ---
Heb. 13:8 = “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.’
That simply, briefly means – He has never changed one iota in quality and quantity, being the precise same whether in the body or out, as the Word, then also as the Son, as our Redeemer, as our Advocate, as our Intercessor, from the womb to the tomb and all in between, such as location, in the manger, country villages, cities, valleys, hills, mountains, water, or dry land, whether alone or in the Jew’s synagogues, also even according to contract, legal, vital in or out of you, and no matter, as eternally He is in you, but timely you may vary gospelly in learning and understanding. So, whether in the body in Heaven or Spiritually simultaneously in you. Finally, He on Earth, from the cradle to the grave, age 12 or 30, as a man, but eternally He is God manifested in the flesh.
Elder Ulanoe
Sing F Lau
I turned on the computer and your post is right on top!!! What providence!
Elder Ulanoe, do you agree that 'yesterday' has a beginning? That "yesterday" is entirely different from "eternal"? One question: is the Word exactly the same as the Son?
Ulanoe
YESTERDAY means all PAST, even back through even before Gen. 1:1 into Eternity Past. Kindly,
Sing
Then you are completely wrong! There was a time when there was no Jesus. Jesus had a beginning - in the womb of a virgin woman by the supernatural power of God!!!
If yesterday extends all the way back beyond the beginning of time, then words have lost its meaning!
Ulanoe
Even before being manifested IN THE FLESH He was still the Son of God. Enough
Sing
Before being manifest IN THE FLESH there was the eternal Word. The Son is the eternal Word manifest in the flesh. Plain?
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
The Word and the Son are NOT the same.
The Word is the one-natured divine Being.
The Son is the dual natured divine-human Being.
If you insist that they are the same, then we read different Bibles!
Ricky
Each person in the trinity has always been.
Sing
The second Person of the triune God has always been the Word. At one particular point in time, the eternal Word was made flesh, and the Son of God was begotten, begotten by the mysterious power of God, in the womb of a virgin.
Heb. 13:8 “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.’
It is basic, "yesterday" has a beginning in time. The Word has no beginning; the Word is eternal, un-begotten! The begotten, Son Jesus Christ, has a beginning!
Pjoh
There are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. The Father is the Father of the Word, which necessarily implies that the Word is the Son of the Father.
Dannie
"Yesterday, today, and forever" is a literary tool to teach the immutability of Jesus Christ. This approach appeals to human mind and understanding, thus we may consider it an anthropomorphism.
What can precisely express the "past" but yesterday.
What can precisely express the "present" but today.
What can precisely express the "future" but forever.
We cannot take yesterday in its strictest and literal sense else we'd be forced to believe that Jesus existed only the other day.
He is immutable in the past, present, and future.
Bernardoe
The Word of God is also called the "Son" in this Scripture in the OT, many hundreds of years before His incarnation in the flesh:
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?" Proverbs 30:4
The Word and the Son have always been the same Person--eternally.
Sing
Brother Bernardoe, I fear you are wrong with that passage.
Proverbs 30 is an appendix to Solomon’s proverbs. Agur, a wise man, taught Ithiel and Ucal (Pr 30:1). His lessons are inspired wisdom, for they are called “the prophecy” (Pr 30:1; 31:1). He introduced his lessons by first confessing his great natural ignorance (Pr 30:2-3), then by proving man’s inability to find out God and wisdom (Pr 30:4), and finally by defining the absolute necessity and sufficiency of Scripture (Pr 30:5-6).
The seven rhetorical questions in this proverb prove no man can find out God or wisdom by human effort. The answer to each question is an obvious negative. No man has gone to heaven, or come back, or conquered the elements to learn the ways and wisdom of God. Agur forced Ithiel and Ucal to admit by force of reason there was no man. They could not name any man who had done such a thing, and they could not name his son.
Don't grasp at straw! And please don't use the passage in Daniel.
Pjoh
The Father is eternally the Father of whom?
Is He:
A.) the Father of the Father
B.) the Father of the Word
C.) the Father of the Spirit
Sing
I read of someone as the everlasting Father... most certain not the one you imagine!
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
An eternal Father is as fictional as the eternal Son. An eternal father is a fiction generated from another fiction - eternal son! Fictions are self generating!
The eternal Word is the truth, and the eternal Word was made flesh is also the truth. The Son is the eternal Word made flesh is also the truth.
Pjoh
What strange and inconsistent reasoning! The Word was eternally the Word, but the Father was not eternally the Father!
Sing
The term "father" is a relational term, conditioned upon the begetting of the son. What's so strange? Isn't that common sense?
Dan @ "What can precisely express the "past" but yesterday."
"Past" is in the realm of time. Yesterday denotes a RECENT past. The man Christ Jesus, the begotten Son of God was on recent origin when the epistle to the Hebrews was written. The Word was made flesh not too long ago!
Dan @ "We cannot take yesterday in its strictest and literal sense else we'd be forced to believe that Jesus existed only the other day."
"Yesterday" is in the realm of time. How far back in time can your "yesterday" go? "Yesterday" denotes a RECENT past, and states a precise and exact truth of the matter. "Yesterday" would be a completely erroneous term to denote something eternal, before time!!!
Dan @ "He is immutable in the past, present, and future."
Yes, Jesus, the begotten Son of God is immutable. He changes not... ever since (in the realm of time) the eternal Word was MADE flesh by the immediate and divine power. You and I can rejoice in this wonderful truth... The man Christ Jesus, the begotten Son of God, is IMMUTABLE. Amen
Bernardoe
Brother Sing, may your fears about my position become a vacuum and vanish into thin air.
In
these verses in Proverbs 30, Solomon is saying that no one can know the
secrets of God but God Himself and His Eternal Son; Whose Son is the
only Person (Heb. 1:3) Who would ever descend from heaven and will
ascend back into heaven. Solomon himself humbly confessed he was, like
every other human, ignorant of the secrets of God as to how God could
perform these treats mentioned in verse four. Nontheless, the Eternal
Son of God would become Man himself and would be the only Man that would
or could know these secrets of God. God would give His Unique Son and
in that giving, the Man child would be born of a woman. He was the Son
of God before He was given and He was still the Son when He became
incarnate in the flesh--the "Child is born." He was the Son before He
was born of woman. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be
called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. "(Now that he ascended, what is it but
that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that
descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that
he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:9-10. The Eternal Son Who
descended is the SAME Eternal Son Who ascended 3-1/2 years after He
descended. God has revealed in His inspired word Who His Eternal Son is.
HE IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD, THE SON OF GOD (even in OT Daniel 3:5),
THE MAN, THE CHRIST (The Son anointed), THE JEHOVAH, JESUS THE LORD, THE
ALMIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, WONDERFUL, COUNSELLER, THE PRINCE
OF PEACE, THE BRANCH, THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, THE FAITHFUL AND
TRUE, THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LAMB OF GOD, THE LORD GOD OMNIPOTENT, THE
KING OF Kings and LORD OF Lords, and of course JESUS, and perhaps
others. The WORD of God is the Eternal SON of God.
Proverbs 30:4--
1. Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? -- This was the prophecy of Solomon (Agur was a fanciful name for Solomon--the wise man) of the Eternal Son of God Who would (and did) fulfil that prophecy by descending from heaven by assumption of human nature. The Eternal Son took upon Him human flesh so to fulfill His Father's will and purpose in redemption and sanctification. John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (KJV)" This is the fulfillment of that prophecy: This is the Eternal Son that came down from heaven: -- Meaning the Son Himself, by assumption of the human nature into union with His Divine Person, i.e., of His Heavenly Deity.
2. Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? -- No man whatsoever has this wisdom or power, No not even Solomon; No one ever, except Almighty God and His Eternal Son Who made the wind and controls it to even obey His will. "He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries." Psalms 135:7
3. Who hath bound the waters in a garment? -- No person ever has this secret of God, nor this power and wisdom, to bind up the waters, except the Almighty God and His Almighty Son. "He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them" (Job 26:8). "Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst" (Isaiah 50:2).
4. Who hath established all the ends of the earth? -- No man has ever possessed this wisdom and power, except for the Almighty God and His Almighty Son, Who eventually was made Man in the flesh.
5. What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? -- It is no mere man with any name that can or ever has done any of these things. This prophecy of Soloman's is pointing us only to the Almighty God, and to His Almighty Eternal Son who has the same nature, power, perfections, and all the characteristics as does His Father God. The Eternal Son is a distinct Person from the Father, co-essential and co-existent with the Father and co-equal with Him in every essence. Thus, the Man Christ Jesus, while in His human flesh, could, with all His eternal wisdom say, "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him" (Matthew 11:27). In Moses' prophecy of God's Eternal Son to be made in the flesh by the woman, this Eternal Son was spoken of, in the masculin gender, as being the Son of the Father by the Personal Masculin pronoun "His" in Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (KJV)--"HIS HEEL". Only He Who has been eternally in heaven could descend and then ascend back to where He, The Eternal Son of God, was eternally with His Father, knowing all the secrets of God and Eternity itself--is NONE OTHER than the Eternal Son of God. This is His name. He was the Son of God when His Father sent Him to be made in the likeness of men. And HE still IS and will be ETERNALLY so, without beginning or ending. This is the TRUTH in which we rejoice.
Sing F Lau
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?" Proverbs 30:4.
The RHETORICAL nature of the questions is simple and plain enough. How can one miss it!!!
If the answers are as you have suggested, then the challenge "if thou canst tell" become meaningless! Why waste the challenge when the answers are SO OBVIOUS?
Which man has ascended up into heaven? NONE.
If you insist otherwise, then give us his name, and his son's name.
The rhetorical nature of the questions is so obvious!
In any case, the rhetorical questions are in the present perfect tense, and no man has done any of those... vindicating the author's assertion that no man can find out God or wisdom by his own effort.
Proverbs 30:4--
1. Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? -- This was the prophecy of Solomon (Agur was a fanciful name for Solomon--the wise man) of the Eternal Son of God Who would (and did) fulfil that prophecy by descending from heaven by assumption of human nature. The Eternal Son took upon Him human flesh so to fulfill His Father's will and purpose in redemption and sanctification. John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (KJV)" This is the fulfillment of that prophecy: This is the Eternal Son that came down from heaven: -- Meaning the Son Himself, by assumption of the human nature into union with His Divine Person, i.e., of His Heavenly Deity.
2. Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? -- No man whatsoever has this wisdom or power, No not even Solomon; No one ever, except Almighty God and His Eternal Son Who made the wind and controls it to even obey His will. "He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries." Psalms 135:7
3. Who hath bound the waters in a garment? -- No person ever has this secret of God, nor this power and wisdom, to bind up the waters, except the Almighty God and His Almighty Son. "He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them" (Job 26:8). "Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst" (Isaiah 50:2).
4. Who hath established all the ends of the earth? -- No man has ever possessed this wisdom and power, except for the Almighty God and His Almighty Son, Who eventually was made Man in the flesh.
5. What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? -- It is no mere man with any name that can or ever has done any of these things. This prophecy of Soloman's is pointing us only to the Almighty God, and to His Almighty Eternal Son who has the same nature, power, perfections, and all the characteristics as does His Father God. The Eternal Son is a distinct Person from the Father, co-essential and co-existent with the Father and co-equal with Him in every essence. Thus, the Man Christ Jesus, while in His human flesh, could, with all His eternal wisdom say, "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him" (Matthew 11:27). In Moses' prophecy of God's Eternal Son to be made in the flesh by the woman, this Eternal Son was spoken of, in the masculin gender, as being the Son of the Father by the Personal Masculin pronoun "His" in Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (KJV)--"HIS HEEL". Only He Who has been eternally in heaven could descend and then ascend back to where He, The Eternal Son of God, was eternally with His Father, knowing all the secrets of God and Eternity itself--is NONE OTHER than the Eternal Son of God. This is His name. He was the Son of God when His Father sent Him to be made in the likeness of men. And HE still IS and will be ETERNALLY so, without beginning or ending. This is the TRUTH in which we rejoice.
Sing F Lau
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?" Proverbs 30:4.
The RHETORICAL nature of the questions is simple and plain enough. How can one miss it!!!
If the answers are as you have suggested, then the challenge "if thou canst tell" become meaningless! Why waste the challenge when the answers are SO OBVIOUS?
Which man has ascended up into heaven? NONE.
If you insist otherwise, then give us his name, and his son's name.
The rhetorical nature of the questions is so obvious!
In any case, the rhetorical questions are in the present perfect tense, and no man has done any of those... vindicating the author's assertion that no man can find out God or wisdom by his own effort.
