Nonsensical, fallacious and anti-biblical shibboleth!

No insult is meant, so don't take any, Mr PinkQueen.
Take comfort that many preachers are no better.

It is grievous how theologians and their followers continue to repeat their religious shibboleths that are plainly nonsensical, fallacious and anti-biblical! Are you among of them?

Sola fidei - the justification of the ungodly before God by faith alone
(man's act of believing in Christ)
is like believing in a fish that walks on land with two slender legs!

Brainy Seal (not his real name!) sent me a newsletter which contains an article on Justification.
I responded, and a few mails were exchanged.


On Dec 17, 2009, at 5:54 AM, Brainy Seal wrote:

Dear Friends of TCS,
I've attached the latest CS newsletter. Inside:
Article on Justification by Stevie Fernez (this is real)
Feel free to pass it on!

Brainy Seal
Dean of the CS
====

Wed, December 16, 2009 10:01:45 PM

Hi Brainy, thanks for the newsletter.
"Why is free justification by faith alone so vitally important?" begins the article on Justification by Stevie Fernez.

We have corresponded before.
THINK with me for a moment...
IF the justification of the guilty condemned criminal before God is INDEED by faith (the act of man's believing in Jesus Christ), THEN...

- it is NO LONGER justification by God's free grace. It is no longer justification by God's free grace because it is conditioned upon faith, man's act of believing. It is conditioned upon something man must do.
- it is NECESSARILY IMPLIED that a guilty condemned spiritually dead criminal (an un-justified man is under the condemnation of death) is able to believe in order to be justified before God.
- It is NECESSARILY IMPLIED that a guilty condemned dead sinner is already regenerated by God (having ability to believe, in order to be justified by God), i.e. since you are sound enough to admit that regeneration precedes justification!
- It is NECESSARILY IMPLIED that a sinner who is under the condemnation of death (being un-justified) is AT THE SAME TIME/SIMULTANEOUSLY already regenerated, and is able to believe in order to be justified by God!

It is like a condemned criminal that is FREED first, and then upon his act of believing his freedom, that the Supreme Court declares him not guilty, but innocent. What lawlessness and insanity!

No, the justification of the ungodly condemned sinner is by God's free grace through the righteousness of Christ alone, and nothing on the part of man, not even his believing. His believing is a fruit of justification by God.

In the justification of the ungodly condemned sinner, God freely pardons all the sins of a guilty sinner under the condemnation of death, and accepts him as righteous by applying to him personally the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. This is justification unto LIFE by the grace of God free (See Rom 5:18!) - thus providing divine warrant for the Spirit of God to regenerate. This is justification by God's free grace indeed - conditioned upon NOTHING in man.

A justification before God is that conditioned upon the believing act of man is NO LONGER justification by the grace of God. If it requires man's act of believing, then it is no longer of free grace! To say otherwise is to abuse, and to confuse, the words 'free' and 'grace' - the words are emptied of its meaning.

This justification by, and before God is to be experienced by faith in Christ, and and evidenced by works of righteousness. This is make possible through the gospel ministry, for faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Sin, the transgression of God's law, brought condemnation unto death.
Acts of sin EVIDENCE that condemnation, they do not bring condemnation.

Righteousness, obedience to the law of God, alone brings justification of life.
That righteousness is the righteousness of God's own provision through the faithfulness of Christ (Rom 3:21-22)

Acts of righteousness, like faith, EVIDENCE the justification unto life that has taken place by God's free grace. Faith DOES NOT instrumentally obtain justification unto life.

Faith is one of the many graces found in a justified man... and that grace of faith worked in them by the Holy Spirit ENABLES a justified man to believe the gospel.

Take a look at the thoughts in the follow short articles in my blog at http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/

"THEREFORE AS the Arminians..., EVEN SO the Calvinists..."

"By faith alone' vs. 'Not by faith alone."

"Saved by grace through faith – whose faith?"

your friend in the far east,
sing
======

On Dec 17, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Brainy Seal wrote:
Sing,
Your argument is with the clear statements of Scripture, not with me.
You allow your logic (not biblical logic) to overturn Scripture.

======

Thu, December 17, 2009 12:39:24 AM
Hi Brainy,
Which clear statements of Scripture say that free justification before God is by faith, man's act of believing? The Scriptures does say that free justification is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, his faithfulness that secured the righteousness needed for justification unto life.

It is funny you dismissed logic just like that when it doesn't suit you.

When your logic insists that regeneration must precede faith (the act of believing), it is affirmed as biblical.
When the same logic insists that justification unto life must precede faith (the act of believing), it is denounced as unbiblical!

Without justification unto life, how could the condemnation of death be reversed? Without the condemnation of death removed by God the Father based on the finished work of God the Son, where is the ground for regeneration by God the Spirit, the new birth with eternal life?

The Scriptures plainly declares that God justifies the ungodly, those under the condemnation of death, imputing to him the righteousness of Jesus Christ unto JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE.

Such a one then have life to believe... and in believing his FAITH justifies him, vindicates him, declares him, evidences his justified state by the free grace of God.

Confused men insist that God justifies the believing!

Scriptures declares that believing vindicates, demonstrates, certifies the justified state of a man by the free grace of God through the righteousness of God. Similarly, the good works. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Breathing justifies that a man is a living man; believing justifies/vindicates/evidences/demonstrates that a man is a justified man by God's grace. Breathing testifies that a man is a living man; believing vindicates that a man possesses eternal life, that he has the justification unto life!

your friend in the far east,
sing
=====

On December 17, 2009 10:31:15 PM GMT+08:00 Brainy Seal wrote:
Your flaw is that you think that "ungodly" means "unbelieving."

=====

December 18, 2009 10:33:20 AM GMT+08:00
Brainy Seal,

With all due respect, you are quite mistaken about the flaw you have imagined!

The 'ungodly' that stands in need of justification by God the Judge is necessarily one that is still UN-justified, i.e. under the condemnation of death, dead in trespasses and sin, and one who is in enmity against God by nature. The ungodly is far more than unbelieving!

God's children may often be shamefully "unbelieving", but they are not the "ungodly."
They are God's children, and are saints in status. Believing will justify God's children that they have the justification of life.

Your wee flaw is that you don't see your own plain inconsistency and irrationality.

Justification of life to remove the condemnation of death must PRECEDE faith is as logical as regeneration to newness of life must precede faith.

Your wee flaw is that you cannot differentiate the various distinct aspects of justification:
- justification decreed for all the elect before time
- justification accomplished for all the elect at the cross
- justification applied to each elect personally at effectual call
- justification experienced by faith in Christ at initial conversion
- justification vindicated/consummated at resurrection to glorification.

sing
====
p/s
Here is the statement from 1689.11.1 - doctrinal statement of the Old School Baptists:

"Those whom God effectually calleth, He also FREELY justifieth,(1) not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;(2) not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;(3) not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death for their whole and sole righteousness,(4) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.(5)"

1. God also FREELY justifies:
- NOT BY infusing righteousness into them
- NOT FOR anything wrought in them, or done by them
- NOT BY imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness.

(Man's act of believing is PLAINLY excluded in his justification by God's free grace. Faith is a grace wrought in them, and believing is something done by them - both are emphatically excluded in their justification. Absolutely nothing is required of man in his free justification by God. That is what the Old School Baptists had believed, and stated. Now the new school Baptists insist otherwise - that believing is required in free justification. They are guilty of double talk - free justification conditioned upon their faith. Justification that is conditioned upon some acts of man is no longer FREE justification. Let God be true, but every man a liar!)

2. He also FREELY justifies:
- BUT BY pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous
- BUT FOR Christ's sake alone
- BUT BY imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death for their whole and sole righteousness.

3. The justified receive and rest on Christ and His righteousness by faith:
- God's act of freely justifying those guilty and under the condemnation of death is DISTINCT FROM and PRIOR TO their act of receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness by faith.
- A benefactor's act of freely crediting a $1b into your account is DISTINCT and PRIOR to your believing the good news of that free and gracious act, and drawing on that gift.
- It is SCANDALOUS and SHAMELESS to insist that it was conditioned upon your believing that the gift was credited to your account!

Only those justified by God, delivered from the just condemnation of death, and regenerated, are able to exercise faith. The grace of faith is found in those that are already justified and regenerated, not in those that are still under the condemnation of death that needed to be justified by God.

"The reason why any are justified is not because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith is because they are justified." PBA - Circular Letter issued by the Philadelphia Baptist Association, October 4, 1785. The 1689 BCoF was the doctrinal statement of PBA.

Three Distinct Sets of Contrast in the Biblical Doctrine of Justification

Three Distinct Sets of Contrast
in the Biblical Doctrine of Justification
Failure to appreciate the distinction leads to theological disaster!

Let us be very clear on the THREE distinct sets of CONTRAST spoken of in the Scriptures in relation to the multifaceted doctrine of justification. It will set us free from much confusion and lies that will rob us of our comfort and assurance. It acknowledges that salvation is truly by the grace of God. 


1. Take careful note of the FIRST set of contrast on the BASIS of your justification 

a. "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is, therefore, Christ the minister of sin? God forbid." Ga 2:16-17

b. "... by the works of the law" is contrasted with "by the faith of Jesus Christ." 
- The contrast is between the righteousness by man's own obedience to the law, and the righteousness by Christ's obedience to the law, as the basis of God justifying guilty man under the condemnation of death. 
- This first basic contrast deals with the BASIS / GROUND of LEGAL justification... on what basis God justifies a man under the condemnation of death. 
- The contrast is NOT NOT NOT between " by the works of the law" and "by faith in Jesus Christ." 
 - To change "by the faith of Jesus Christ" which describes the righteousness by Christ's obedience to the law, as the basis of God justifying guilty man under the condemnation of sin and death into "by faith in Jesus Christ" as the basis of God justifying guilty man under the condemnation of sin and death is to twist and pervert the truth of the gospel into a SATANIC LIE! This destroys the gospel of free grace!

This is what all modern translations HAVE DONE!!! KJB alone retains the truth.

c. Knowing this as the truth, EVEN we have believed this truth... that the basis of our justification is by the faith of Jesus Christ, INSTEAD of our own works of the law. 
- So, inquired Paul, "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is, therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.." Yes, God forbid!
- Legal Justification is by Christ (Gal 2:17), by the blood of Christ (Rom 5:9), and by the faith of Christ (Gal 2:16). The faith OF Christ is a whole world of difference from a believer’s faith or act of believing (a verb) IN Christ. The faith (a noun) of Christ speaks of His faithfulness/fidelity in His work of redemption.’

d. Sins bring the condemnation of death, Rom 5:12.
- Righteousness secures the justification of life, Rom 5:18. Justification is the reversal of condemnation. Justification in God's sight requires righteousness; no righteousness, no justification.
- Righteousness requires perfect obedience to the law. This righteousness is either by a man's own perfect obedience to the whole law, OR by Christ's perfect obedience to the whole law.
- No man can obtain the needed righteousness through his own obedience to the law, for "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
- God provided the righteousness that is needed for the justification of His people BEFORE Him. This righteousness of God's own provision is by the faithfulness of Christ's obedience to the whole law.
- Righteousness is needed for the justification of a man in his native state of condemnation and death. Sins bring the condemnation of death, Rom 5:12. Righteousness brings justification of life, Rom 5:18.
- This righteousness of God's own and sole provision is by the faithfulness of Christ ALONE in keeping the whole law perfectly, Christ's work of redemption.

2. Take note of the SECOND set of contrast in the MANNER of your justification 

a. "... Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:23. "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" Titus 3:7. 
- This statement declares another basic contrast in the justification of man under the condemnation of death, i.e. - in the manner the righteousness of Christ is APPLIED to a man. How is the righteousness of Christ applied to a man in the state of condemnation of death? 
- The righteousness of Christ is applied FREELY by God, that is, by grace. Its application to a man personally is not conditioned upon anything in the man or done by the man. Its application is not conditioned upon anything in, of, or done by the man. It is NOT conditioned upon believing. It is applied freely, by the grace of God alone.
-  It is applied NOT on the condition of faith, man's act of believing, or repentance. An UN-justified man is still in his native state of condemnation and death. A man still in that native state cannot possibly believe, he is incapable of faith! So, it has to be applied to him by the free and sovereign grace of God. 

b. Many irrationally believe that an unjustified man, still in his state of condemnation and death, is already regenerated, and therefore is able to believe in order to be justified by God. If that is the case, then justification is no longer by the free grace of God, but conditioned upon the work of believing.
- Believing, being an activity of man, is a work. John 6:39. It is a work required by God for His children.
- In addition, it is a grievous error to believe that a man still UN-justified by God is already regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Only a justified man, having the righteousness of Christ already applied to him personally by God, has the divine warrant to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.  
- Justification of life (Rom 5:18) by the grace of God must LOGICALLY precede the regeneration to life by the Spirit of God; the righteousness of Christ applied to a man personally by God is the basis of his being regenerated unto eternal life by God the Spirit.
- Justification is applied to an elect personally by the free grace of God… without the work of believing. 
- "... Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:23. 

3. Take note of the THIRD set contrast in the EXPERIENCE of your justification

a. "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." 
- This passage declares another basic contrast - how does the justified (by God's free grace) experience the blessedness of their justified state (by the free grace of God alone based on the faith of Christ alone)? 
- What was Abraham's experience? Did Abraham (already justified by God) experience the blessedness of his justified state by his performance of good works and observing the ceremonial laws, or was it by his act of believing in the promised seed?  
- Did he experience the blessedness of his justification through observing the ceremonial laws or through simply believing in the promised seed of God? 
- The work of believing in Christ and the work of observing the old covenant ceremonial laws are contrasted. With the coming of Christ, the old covenant has been abolished. 

b. Please remember that God had freely justified Abraham when He called Abraham out of Ur in Gen 11. Abraham was a man ALREADY justified by the free grace of God based on the righteousness of Christ. However, so many people, even the supposedly wiser reformed folks, vehemently insist that Abraham was not a justified man until Gen 15; that is, Abraham was still a man in his native UN-justified state, therefore still under the condemnation of death,  until his believing Gen 15:1-6.
 - How can they read the Scriptures and conclude that Abraham, in Gen 12-14 was still a man in his un-justified state, in his native state of condemnation and death? How could a man in his native state of condemnation and death ever walk with, and worship God?  
- What a perverted and twisted theology - all because they refuse to distinguish the difference between the application of justification by God's free grace, and the experience of the blessedness of justification by the justified through believing! What horrible lies against Abraham, the father of all them that believe, Rm 4:10

c. How is the blessedness of one's justified state by the free grace of God to be experienced? 
- What did the experience of Abraham declare? It wasn't through his doing good works or observing the ceremonial laws that he came to experience the blessedness of his justification by the free grace of God.
- Note this rhetorical question by Paul... "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision?

Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision." Rom 4:9-10.
 - This is the same message Apostle Paul was teaching God's children among the Jews who continued to trust in their observance of the old covenant laws, instead of simply believing on Christ. 
- With the coming of Christ, the observance of the old covenant ceremonial laws is abrogated. The Gentile believers didn’t have this problem, because they were never under the old covenant ceremonial laws. However, the misguided Jewish believers wanted to impose them upon the Gentile believers, thus giving occasion for Paul's epistle to the Galatians. 

d. Many people, the reformed included, make the monumental error by thinking that Abraham was justified by God only in Gen 15:1-6. Justification by God's free grace involves the application of the righteousness of Jesus Christ to an elect personally - that's the essence of justification by God.  
- However, it is plain as the noonday sun, that there is NO - NO - NO imputation of Christ's righteousness in Gen 15:1-6!  There is none in Gen 15:1-6, period. To claim that there is, is just pure hallucination.
- There is the reckoning of Abraham's faith, his act of believing, unto Abraham for righteousness, for him to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God’s free grace. 
- The reckoning of Christ's righteousness to Abram when he was under the condemnation of death and the reckoning of Abraham's faith to believing Abraham are TWO VASTLY different and distinct and separate matters! They are not the same! To say they are is a monumental theological disaster!

Conclusion

There are three distinct sets of contrast in the three distinctly different aspects of justification:

 a. Imputing Christ's righteousness to an elect legally under the condemnation of death is the LEGAL ASPECT of justification. That happened when Christ died on the cross for all the elect. Legal justification is not by man's own righteousness through his deeds of obedience to the law of God.

b. Applying the righteousness of Jesus Christ to an elect personally still under the condemnation of death is the VITAL/PERSONAL ASPECT of justification. This happens when God effectually call an elect out of his native state of condemnation and death to that of grace and salvation. He does this freely by His grace, not conditioned upon anything in, of, or done by, man. It is not conditioned on faith. It is freely by God's grace. 

c. The blessedness of the justification by God's free grace can only be EXPERIENCED by God's children through the instrument or means of believing in Jesus Christ. This is the EXPERIENTIAL ASPECT of justification - justification by faith IN Jesus Christ. It is not experienced through observing the ceremonial law of the old covenant.
- It is only those whom God has justified freely by His grace and regenerated by the Spirit that are able to believe in Jesus Christ.  
- And believing in Jesus Christ is the means appointed by God for His children (justified and regenerated elect) to experience the blessedness of their justification by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. It is not through their doing works of righteousness or keeping the old covenant laws. Abraham is the classic example marshalled by Apostle Paul to lead the misguided Jewish believers away from their bondage.  

d. If you observe these three distinct sets of contrast with respect to the biblical doctrine of justification, you will begin to rightly divide the word of truth. May our Lord grant you an understanding of these things.  
- There is no need to kick against the goad - why hurt yourself?
- Since your justification is based on Christ’s righteousness alone, it is as certain and as settled as can be. But if it is by your faith, then you have much to fear!!! 
- Since your justification is applied to you by God’s grace, and not anything in you or by you, it is as immutable as the purpose and character of God.
- Since your justification by the righteousness of Christ can only be experienced through believing in Christ, and not through works of observing the ceremonial laws, believe and rest in Christ alone for all your hope and comfort in and through this life. 

Love His truth, and obey Him. Stop believing lies!

Read this related article :
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-justification-as.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2022/09/multifaceted-jewel-five-aspects-of.html

http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/11/mere-semantics-or-another-gospel.html

There are many other articles on justification in this blog. 

Learn to ask sensible question first please...

Do you have a question? What's your question?
Do you know how to ask your real question?
However many often end up asking non-question question -
i.e. they actually wish to give their opinion but no questions!
Asking precise questions is a skill that we need to learn.
Asking questions precisely enhances communication, and discussion!

Here is an example...
A silly willy nilly thinks he is asking the same question below?
- What can we determine that the preacher is NOT preaching a "lie"?
- How could a lying tongue preach the truth in the HOLY Scriptures?
The former is the initial question; the latter is rephrased.


From: Willy Nilly (not his real name)
Date: September 16, 2013 2:00:13 PM GMT+08:00

Hi Brother Sing,
Here is a new question I wish to ask you, for the better understanding of the scripture.
1. Babies are born with "lying" tongues, but the HOLY scripture is of the "Truth". What can we determine that the preacher is NOT preaching a "lie"?

Wish to hear some "sound" explanation from you on this topic today.

Thank you.
=========

Brother Willy,
You made TWO statements, and asked ONE question.
Your two statements are:
- Babies are born with "lying" tongues, and
- The HOLY scriptures is of the "Truth".

Your question is:
What can we determine that the preacher is NOT preaching a "lie"?

May I ask, in order to understand your question better
- You made two statements before your question.  How are your two statements related to your question?
- In your first statement, lying is placed under quotation mark. What is the significance?
- In your second statement, Truth is placed under quotation mark. What is the significance?

Concerning your question, do you wish to ask,
HOW can we determine whether the preacher is NOT preaching a "lie"? or
WHAT can we do to determine that the preacher is not preaching a "lie"?
This is because "what can we determine that the preacher is not preaching a "lie"? doesn't make much sense to me.

Why in your question is lie placed under quotation mark? What is the significance?

Do you wish to hear some "sound" explanation on which topic?
- that babies are born with "lying" tongues?
- that the HOLY scriptures is of the "Truth"?
- what can we determine that the preacher is not preaching a "lie".

Sorry for saying so much and not answering your question.
Perhaps you need a little more skill to ask more precisely.

I will compensate you with this note: A man himself must be firmly grounded in the truth of the Holy Scriptures first, or at least having mastered the skill of rightly dividing the word of truth, before he is qualified to determine whether a preacher is, or is, not preaching a lie. Otherwise he himself may be believing lies and yet knows it not!!!

I hope this helps.
Ask further if you have further questions.

sing
=========

Hi Pastor Lau,

Let me rephrase my question.
Initial question:-
1. Babies are born with "lying" tongues, but the HOLY scripture is of the "Truth". What can we determine that the preacher is NOT preaching a "lie"?

The two statement was made to help understanding that a baby was born to lie, how could a lying tongue preach the Truth in the HOLY Scriptures? (a lying tongue) doesn't agree with (preach the Truth).

For your information, in case you can't see it, i have put my question in red letters. Please kindly answer my question with your understanding of the Bible, don't beat around the bushes.

(I will compensate you with this note: A man himself must be firmly grounded in the truth of the Holy Scriptures first, or at least having mastered the skill of rightly dividing the word of truth, before he is qualified to determine whether a preacher is, or is, not preaching a lie. Otherwise he himself may be believing lies and knows it not!!!) - this is not the exact answer to this question, because we can't mastered the skill of rightly dividing the word of truth through our sinful body and carnal mind; let alone preaching in God's ministry. I am giving you a hint here.
Thank you.
=========

Brother Willy,
You already answered your own question! Why bother asking???
have a good day.
sing
=========

Hi Pastor Lau,
No, I have not answered yet. I just giving you hint. The answer is plain and simple, in less than 10 words, you can answer it easily if you know. Do you know the answer? You can say you don't know, don't be a boaster. Be humble unto the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you.
=========

Willy Nilly,
You know what I think of you? Someone looking for a quarrel.
You could NOT even ask a question properly to start with.... and I helped you to ask the question sensibly, and you accused of me beating round the bush.
You have neither the courtesy nor humility to admit your own deficiencies! 

Why do you even waste time asking the question when you already know your answer to your question?
Giving a hint is as good as an evidence that you know the answer. You even disclosed that the answer is plain and simple.

I can give you a one word answer... but what good will that do to a all-knowing smart aleck like you?

Willie, you were conceived and born in sin, dead in trespasses and sins, in enmity against God.
How could someone dead in trespasses and sins end up confessing Christ?

No, I don't know the answer... and I am boasting in my ignorance.
But I glory and rejoice in your wisdom!

Have a good day, Willy.

sing

The widest open gate is no good news to sinners!

The gate of the celestial ground is opened to all...
Only the living are able to go through!!!

The most generous and liberal offer is no good news to sinners in any sense at all!!!
It is an illusive lie!

Calvinists rejoice in this saying of their hero and mentor:
"No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief.”- John Calvin.

=======

Let's generously concede that it is true that no man is excluded from calling upon God. However, let it be stated simply and plainly that the native state of which a man is in, a state of sin and death, excludes him from calling upon God.

Therefore, even though "no man is excluded from calling upon God" sounds so broad and inclusive, yet it is NO GOOD NEWS at all to any man in his native state of sin and death!!!

Only those whom God has INCLUDED in His purpose of redemption in Jesus Christ, i.e. effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, are enabled to call upon God.

The gate of salvation is indeed set wide open to all men... let's concede to such liberal generosity! However, the wide opened gate of salvation is absolutely irrelevant to every man still in his native state of condemnation and death. Such has no ability to crawl up to the gate of salvation wide open to them, much less enter it! They do not even have eyes to see such wide opened gate of salvation!!! "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT see..."

A wide opened gate of salvation is NO GOOD NEWS whatsoever to those still dead in trespasses and sins.

The good news is, and has to be: God Himself, actively and freely, applies/bestows salvation to men who are dead in trespasses and sins, under condemnation and death, notwithstanding their enmity and rebellion against God!!! O, that's grace!

That's the gospel - the good news of what God Himself has done to save wretched helpless sinners to the uttermost in Jesus Christ, PLUS NOTHING on man's part. Anything a man can do is the RESULT and CONSEQUENCE of what God has done... i.e. bestowed eternal salvation freely.

I hope you know better the next time you mumble "salvation is by grace." Amen.

Cantoro
I hope I summarize this correctly:

Calvinist: Everyone is offered the chance to call upon God, but God only gives faith to some to call upon Him.

Hypercalvinist: Only some have the chance to call upon God, and these are those who are given faith.

Sing F Lau
Cantoro, I will let others decide whether your summaries are correct or not. However, I must say that you mistake a thorough Arminian for a Calvinist!!!

Let me ask you simply:
- what good is that chance to call upon God to the man who is still dead in trespasses and sins?
- what good is the gift of faith to the man still dead in trespasses and sins?

You don't even have the gospel in your summary!

The gospel is, God, according to His good and sovereign pleasure, freely bestows eternal salvation to men who are dead in trespasses and sins, through the redemption of Jesus Christ alone.

If you are so obtuse to understand, let me illustrate this simply for you.
Supposing you see a dead man lying just outside the grand Istana gates. You observe the guard marching up to him every few minutes to remind the dead man of the open gate and his equal chance to enter the gate. You also see that each time the guard sticks into the pocket of the dead man a gift of $1000 to be used by him at the gate for entry. The guard would jovially say to the dead man, 'Giddy up man! Don't waste your equal chance, and the good gift!'

Is any of those things good news to the dead man? Please don't let me conclude that you are stupid too (i.e lacking common sense.) There are enough of them around.

Cantoro
Ok, would Calvin then be labelled an Arminian by you?

Sing F Lau
Cantoro, Calvin doesn't need me to label him an Arminian. You have already proven that he is one... he doesn't need a label from me!!!

You have shown yourself quite an accomplished Arminian too... deluding yourself a Calvinist. You are the MOST misguided, as well as the confused man I have come across on FB.

That is really what you should be concerned about! Instead, you are distracted by Calvin being labelled an Arminian! What a pity!

Cantoro
I agree with Calvin... but why do u then call me an Arminian????

Sing F Lau
I will tell you why AGAIN why you are an Arminian. I told you before, but you have no ears to hear. On second thought, I had better not waste my time. You have no ears to hear! Sorry, I changed my mind!

Sing F Lau
Cantoro, it does not matter that you agree with Calvin... you DISAGREE with the Bible!!! Do you understand? So, stop hiding under the skirt of the Genevan! Grow up and stand tall as a child of God and START studying the Scriptures!

If salvation is offered, you would still be as dead in trespasses and sins as you were!!! If you can't see this simple truth, you are still in blindness!

Salvation is bestowed/applied freely and sovereign by God upon those dead in trespasses and sins without any human aid. That is good news.

A dead man does not need genuine offers and exclusive gifts!
He needs the direct and immediate divine activity of calling him out of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

Do you understand? So, your hero Calvin is just wrong, plain wrong. And you blindly follow him, and proudly call yourself after his name!

Cantoro
Ok, all Presbys and the Westminister Confession of Faith is wrong regarding the matter of faith and repentance?
(Dr Alan Cairns said that the WCF is Calvinism at its highest)

Sing F Lau
Cantoro, let me just say that your statement is one of the most CHILDISH, STUPID and FOOLISH statement I have read. I will give you some reasons:

a. Childish: that's hardly the way to engage in discussion. If you are wrong and misguided on the specific point under discussion, have the grace and humility to admit it, and make the amendment. How does throwing up a statement like that help you in learning the truth?
- That's just a vague excuse to continue believing your lie!!!
- why don't you just stick to the subject under discussion, and speak for yourself?

b. Stupid: i.e. lacking common sense. Who gives you the right to speak on behalf of ALL Presbies, and the WCF? And on what basis do you say that "all Presbies and the Westminister Confession of Faith is wrong regarding the matter of faith and repentance?" And just how do you know what the other Presbies believe? Many prebies are thorough Arminians, do you know that?
- why don't you just stick to the subject under discussion, and speak for yourself, unless someone gives you the right and privilege to speak for them?

c. Foolish: You are a child of God. You don't need to hide under the skirt of any Dr XYZ. Doing so is very foolish! Learn to read and study the Bible for yourself... think and ask questions. Stand on your own feet.... do you hear me? Why depend on crutches like that?
- Don't avoid issues if you are genuine and sincere in wanting to know the truth.
- stop deceiving and deluding yourself.

If you are not interested in the truth, don't waste time here.

Chong WC
Sing, let it be...we can't change this world, and what the world chooses to believe...

Sing F Lau
Chong, learn to speak for yourself. I don't intend to change this world. I do intend, by the grace of God, to save God's own children from their errors. That's my calling. And I haven't given up on Cantoro yet... not yet anyway!

I have decided to let be fellows like you and your mentor Matthew Ong!!!

A Brief but Belated Tribute to a Faithful Man of God - Lim Fong Jwong

Pastor Lim Fong Jwong : 25 Feb 1940 - 13 Sep 2002

This tribute should have been written more than 10 years ago! I don't want to delay it any longer. But alas, things were getting tumultuous those days, on two different fronts, and the passing of a wise and mature man of God, did not help the situation at all.

Pastor Lim was the man of God who gave the charge at my marriage to Alice. That's more than 25 years ago. He was there again at my 'wedding' to the Sungai Dua Church in Nov 1993! That's coming to 20 years soon. And on both occasions, it was the Lord Himself who had arranged it. I have no hand in it whatsoever. Between those two significant events, Pastor Lim became a dear friend, brother, and teacher to me. He was the only father-figure I ever had in the ministry... for he taught me as a father would his own son. With his departure to glory, I lost the man who has taught me precious lessons along the way. My wife and I still talk about him to this day...

I was blessed with 15 years of his love and fellowship in our blessed Lord Jesus Christ. Before he left to be with the Lord, he had given instruction to his wife that I should preach at his funeral service. I was humbled to the dust by the honor bestowed on me.

And the Lord continued to knit our hearts closer in those fifteen years as we laboured together in the ministry of the gospel, and in defense of the truth of the gospel (as we understood it then), and especially defending the liberty from ecclesiastical tyranny.


Brief Background:
Fong Jwong grew up in Ipoh, Perak and attended the Anglo Chinese School in Ipoh. After Cambridge 'O' Level, he went to Australia for further education. He was sent to Orange, a country town in NSW, some 200+ km to the west of Sydney, to do his pre-u. From there he went to read Pharmacy at Sydney University. During his final year at SU, he began attending the Stanmore Baptist Church. He had also begun joining the Overseas Christian Fellowship in the university. (I spent 6 years at the same university doing my BSc. and BArch. I was 21 years his junior).

Along the way, he felt called to the ministry. During his time with OCF, he heard the news of the setting up of the Discipleship Training Centre (DTC) in Singapore. He worked as a pharmacist for two years in Sydney. Later he became one among the first batch of students when DTC started operating in 1968! There was no little opposition and resentment from family members! (I experienced the same when I entered the ministry!)

A fellow student from Sydney University had been posted to Kuala Kubu Baru (administrative center of Hulu Selangor District) as a medical officer. He had started a Christian fellowship in his rented home and wanted the work to continue upon his leaving. He heard that Fong Jwong was preparing for the ministry in DTC, and persuaded him to come to KKB, and he came in July 1971.... and remained there till he was called home to glory in 2002.  He continued the work passed on to him, and in Dec 1974, with the help from the Brethren churches, the work was constituted at Kuala Kubu Chapel. In 1978 he was married to a Dr. Ong, a dentist (National University of Singapore) who was posted to KKB. And the Lord bless their ministry together in KKB and further afield among the Brethren churches for many years. By the time I first met him in 1987, he had begun to identify himself with the RBs.

He ministered faithfully in Kuala Kubu Chapel (later known as Kuala Kubu RBC) till the Lord called him to glory!

15 years together:
The very first time Pastor Lim and I met was in 1987 August (?) at the 1st Reformed Ministers Conference held in Port Dickson. The political situation was very tense then because of the massive Operation Lallang... when the despotic civil authority rounded up and imprisoned many innocent civilians, and only a few of those who registered for the conference actually turned up. Mr. Erroll Hulse was the invited speaker. I was then a student at FEBC, Singapore. A few days of interaction made a good impression on me concerning Pastor Lim. (It was also the first time I met Brother C.S. Woon. He was working as a site engineer in Seremban. We have stuck together as founding church members of Sungai Dua Church to this day! Bless the Lord!)

Finishing my first and only year at FEBC by May 1998, I moved to Sri Serdang in order to be with the Sri Serdang Church. Alice and I were married on June 11th, after which Alice and I stayed at the home of Dr. Sim until we left for London Theological Seminary in Sep 88. (Alice was expecting our first child, Josiah, born 26 May 89.) Julian Bull, who was the pastor of my home church in Sydney, was scheduled to preach at our wedding. We were engaged at the church in Sydney. However, he was down with severe sickness while in London (on the way back to Sydney via KL), and couldn't make it to our wedding. The pastor of the then S S Church was unlawfully detained and incarcerated under the infamous and notorious Operation Lallang.

He married us...
Pastor Lim was the Lord's SPECIAL provision in such exigency! He helped to arrange for an assistant registrar of marriage from a Brethren assembly for the occasion, officiated the wedding, and preached the wedding message to us. Everything went smoothly... and we were happily married... and still married to this day! Those few months (May-Aug 88) in Seri Serdang gave us the opportunity to interact with Pastor Lim whenever he visited Sri Serdang. We witnessed his hearty love and generosity towards those saints in need, especially towards the family of the imprisoned and incarcerated pastor. The same love and generosity were shown to us in later years.

He ordained me...
We left for London in early Sep 88. Then we (now with Josiah) came back to KL for a few weeks in mid-July 90. We again stayed with Sister Sim (this time in the university staff quarters). We visited Pastor Lim in KKB to renew the fellowship. He reminded me of a few things... because a man from his church who had also gone to the UK for theological studies... came back and raised some issues that grieved him. I took his advice to heart! In August we left for Sydney and remained with the home church there (Newtown Baptist) until Feb 1991 when we decided to return to Malaysia for the sake of the gospel. We stayed with Sister Debra Sim for a few months until we moved into our own accommodation some 30 min's drive away in PJ Section 22. We settled into Sri Hartamas Church.

I was employed as an architect from March 91 - Feb 93. On March 93, we (now with the addition of Jo-Hannah, and Jo-Hanan still in the cozy womb!) moved to Penang for the church planting work. I had been making monthly visits with another pastor since May 92. On 1 May 93, the new work was constituted as Sungai Dua Church, taking the name of the suburb. The church called me to be the pastor in Sep 93. I was ordained to the gospel ministry in November. Four pastors formed the ordination presbytery. Read here if you want to know more http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/10/iv-call-and-ministry-of-word.html

Pastor Lim was one of the ordaining elders, and he gave the charge to the brand-new still-wet-behind-the-ears pastor. One of the things he said remains with me to this day: the grave danger of lording over the Lord's blood-bought flock! Be tender to the Lord's sheep... love them, not lord over them. Another pastor gave the charge to the church - of 9 charter members, including my wife and I.

A lot more could be said of this brave and humble servant of the Lord...

i. When shown some of the truth by the Lord, he bravely left the Brethren teaching... despite the loss of friendship and usefulness among them, and enduring all sorts of unpleasant treatments from those who were close to him before. I once heard him say in public, "A great man is one who is bold enough to admit his errors and move on!" In that sense, he was a great man!

ii. He was a man of principle... (I will continue...)

Please, if you have something to say, leave your comments. Thank you.

Pastor Lim delivered the message at the wedding
on June 11, 1988

Taken with Jo-Hanan, after the special service to constitute
the Melaka RBC on 15th March 2002.
Pastor Lim gave the charge to the newly constituted church
Jo-Hanan and I attended the special service!

At the graveside on 15 September 2002 -
The message was from 1Cor 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

At the funeral service the message was from
Ps 116:15 "Precious in the sight of the LORD
is the death of his saints."

Our children were close to "Uncle Lim."
They know he loved them very much.
It was always a special treat to them visiting Uncle and Auntie Lim at KKB!
(I hope Auntie Lim will forgive me for putting this picture on the net.)

The LORD - Jehovah God

Sept. 10th, 2013
Taken from www.wayoflife.org
=====

The following study is part of new edition of the Advanced Bible Studies Series course Give Attendance to Doctrine that we plan to publish later this year.

" These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"(Gen. 2:4).

Jehovah is the personal name by which God is revealed in the Old Testament. In the King James Bible, Jehovah is translated by LORD in all caps and it appears more than 6,500 times.

Jehovah is both Saviour and Judge. He is the covenant-keeping Redeemer to the believer as well as the holy God of judgment to the unbeliever (Deut. 7:9-10).

The book of Psalms is a book of praise to Jehovah God. Forty-one times the Psalmist says, "Praise the LORD" or "Praise ye the LORD."

Jehovah is to be praised because of His goodness and mercy (Psa. 106:1; 103:8-14). Sixteen times we are told that Jehovah is good (1 Ch. 16:34; 2 Ch. 5:3; 7:3; Ezr. 3:11; Psa. 34:8; 100:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 29; 135:3; 136:1; 145:9; Jer. 33:11; Lam. 3:25; Nah. 1:7).

Jehovah's mercies are great (1 Ch. 21:13), manifold (Ne. 9:19), tender (Psa. 25:6), plentious (Psa. 86:15), multitudinous (Psa. 5:7; 51:1; 69:16; 106:7, 45; lam. 3:32), everlasting (Psa 100:5; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 136; 138:8). The believer is compassed with Jehovah's mercy (Psa. 32:10). His mercies are as high as the heaven above the earth (Psa. 103:11). He is full of compassion (Psa. 145:8).

Jehovah is the Redeemer. Jehovah sought Adam after the fall and clothed him in coats, which signified the salvation provided by Jesus (Genesis 3:8-9, 21). The believer is clothed in Christ's righteousness (Rom. 3:21-22; 2 Cor. 5:21).

The greatness of Jehovah's mercy and salvation can only be understand in light of His terrible holiness (Lev. 11:45; 19:1-2; Psa. 11:4-5; Isa. 6:3; Hag. 1:12-13). Jehovah is the lawgiver and the punisher of lawbreakers (Ex. 20:1-18).

The reason that Jehovah can be merciful to sinners is because He Himself has satisfied the requirements of His own holy law. Jehovah is the God of the Passover (Ex. 12:1-7). Yea, Jehovah is the Passover Lamb. He is the only Saviour (Isa. 43:11). He is "Jesus" (Mat. 1:21; John 1:29).

Exodus 6:3 says God did not make his name Jehovah known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the name appears 141 times in the book of Genesis. How can we solve this seeming contradiction? The answer is that the name Jehovah was not actually revealed to men in history until the days of Moses. It is Moses who wrote the book of Genesis and included the name Jehovah in reference to men in that day. Thus, Jehovah is part of the revelation given by Moses.

There is a Jewish practice that considers the name Jehovah too sacred to be spoken, but it was a ridiculous, superstitious thing that comes from their vain tradition. Since God revealed Himself by the name of Jehovah and put it in Scripture, it is obvious that it is not wrong for man to write or speak the name.

What the Old Testament says about Jehovah, the New Testament says about Jesus.

Title: -- Jehovah God -- Jesus Christ
King of kings -- Psa. 95:3 -- 1 Tim. 6:14-15
Lord of lords -- Psa. 136:3 -- Rev. 19:16
Stone of stumbling Isa. -- 8:13-15 -- 1 Pe. 2:6-8
Judge -- Isa. 24:20-21 -- Heb. 12:23 Col. 1:17; Jn. 5:22
Reigning -- Isa. 24:23 -- Mat. 25:31
Good Shepherd -- Isa. 40:10-11 -- Jn. 10:11
Only Saviour -- Isa. 43:11 -- 2 Tim. 1:10
Alpha and Omega -- Isa. 44:6 -- Rev. 1:7-18
Creator -- Isa. 44:24 -- Col. 1:16
Every knee bow -- Isa. 45:23 -- Ph. 2:10-11.

Eph 2:8-9... Open your eyes and take your first close look

Leave your prejudices behind.
Be as a little child, and take a close look!

A dear brother wrote:
Try to take a look at it again.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

Alright then. Let's take a closer look.

Take note of seven (7) things:
1. Salvation is by grace. (I believe you agree)
2. Salvation by grace is through faith. (I assume you still agree.)...
3. This faith is not man's faith but the faith of Jesus Christ. (Now you don't.)
4. Paul is clear in v.1 that man is dead in sins, thus faith is impossible. (Have you started to think?)
5. Faith is from "pistin" meaning fidelity, what fidelity from a spiritually dead man to speak of? (You are thinking more deeply, I hope.)
6. Fidelity means "faithfulness to a cause". Whose faithfulness to what cause secured the salvation that is freely bestowed by God's grace? (I hope the question makes sense to you!)
7. Salvation by grace, therefore, is through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in the redemptive work for His people. Compare with Ephesians 3:12 "...boldness and access...through the faith of him (Jesus Christ). (I pray you would consider this clear truth).

Sing F Lau
It is a great delight to see this post. Kindly read it; think through it humbly; get rid of the fables you have been taught, and believe the plain and simple truth... and may the truth set you free! May the Lord help you.

Don't be obsessed with your feeble fickle faith. May your eyes be opened to behold the faithfulness of Christ Jesus! This is one of the truth I embraced that caused the RBs churches to turn against me nearly 10 years ago.

Here is another pivotal passage:
Rom 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Prior to verse 21, Paul conclusively proved and demonstrated that all are justly condemned and have no righteousness whatsoever.

Verse 21 declares the provision of righteousness by God Himself for His people.

Righteousness comes by obedience to the law, either by a man's own obedience or by the obedience of a substitute. By man's own obedience, there is only condemnation.

The righteousness by God's own provision is by the obedience of Jesus Christ... THAT IS 'by faith of Jesus Christ'.

This phrase 'by faith of Jesus Christ' refers to His faithfulness in rendering perfect obedience to the law in order to secure the righteousness necessary for the justification of His people. That is the context.

We are absolutely sure that that is the meaning because in verse 24 we read, "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus..."

The phrase 'by faith of Jesus Christ' by which God justifies condemned sinners is "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." The two phrases refers to the same thing... and in the context of God's provision of righteousness in the context of justifying condemned sinners.

Nearly everybody is OBSESSED with their fickle and feeble faith IN Christ; hardly any knows and boasts of the faith OF OF OF Christ.... even though the Scriptures speaks of it so many times.

Of course that truth is OBLITERATED in all the modern translations. KJ Bible alone preserves the truth of 'by the faith OF Jesus Christ, i.e. the FIDELITY/FAITHFULNESS of Christ.

May the Lord open the eyes of many to see this blessed truth!

Sing F Lau .
"6. Fidelity means "faithfulness to a cause". (I hope it makes sense)"
=======
Lexicon : Strong's G4102 - pistis, πίστις
Transliteration, pistis
Pronunciation : pē'-stēs (Key)
Part of Speech : feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology) : From πείθω (G3982)

I. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

II. fidelity, faithfulness
1. the character of one who can be relied on.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4102&t=KJV.
(some consider it a sin to consult the Greek lexicon for some information!)

Sing F Lau
1. Salvation is by grace. (I believe you agree)
2. Salvation by grace is through faith. (I assume you still agree.)
3. This faith is not man's faith but the faith of Jesus Christ. (Now you don't.)
================

Statement 1 EXCLUDES the fable that faith is man's faith; otherwise, it is no longer grace!
But many will say, it is not man's faith, but the faith given by God! So they insist, that grace is still maintained!

However, they must admit that the God-given faith must be UTILIZED/EXERCISED by man for salvation to take place... i.e. a man is saved through his believing, his faith, his work of believing!!!

Statement 1 EXCLUDES man playing any part in his salvation. By grace means salvation is bestowed by God to a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, without him doing anything. Anything that he can do is the EFFECT, CONSEQUENCE, and EVIDENCE of the salvation ALREADY freely bestowed... i.e. by grace!

Sing F Lau
Which is good news???????????????????
- salvation by grace through your act of believing, or
- salvation by grace through Christ's fidelity/faithfulness?

What is so good news about the eternal salvation that is through your act of believing in Christ? Consider these things:

1. Are you sure you have been told and believed the right things? How can you be sure that the preacher has preached the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ to you?

2. Supposing he has, are you certain that you have heard and understood accurately, and believed the truth? Did you have the right faith to effect your salvation?

3. Are you sure you have believed adequately? How much truth must you hear, understand and believe in order that the salvation may be effected through your faith?

4. Are you sure your faith was strong enough to have effected your salvation through it?

5. What happen when you become unbelieving? What then? Ok, you will never be unbelieving! That's very good. But are you certain that your believing was enough?

You see then that if your salvation is through your act of believing, then a whole host of uncertainties are introduced into the  equation of your eternal-salvation, and that means BAD news!!!

Think about it... may the Lord wake you up from self-deception!

Was the woman made yet,,, when the LORD God warned Adam?

I inquired...

Dear brethren,
This may sound like a silly question, but it just crossed my mind.

When the LORD gave this warning to the man, was the woman made yet?

Gen 2:
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Tell us your answer, and the reasons for it... and the implications of your answer. Thanks.

+++++++++

Nilo
Thou is singular

John
I have had many a thoughts by this post Brother. And for some reason this keeps weighing on my mind. Genesis 2:23
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Good question. Many I believe take this to extremes of giving glory to mother earth among other excuses of innocence that betray the glory of GOD and His grace alone. I would enjoy some thoughts on this Brethren.

Marty
I (Marty) don't take a hard position on this, but I think that Eve was not formed when God gave this commandment to Adam. My reasons? First, her statement of God's commandment in Genesis 3:3 was not the verbatim command God gave in Genesis 2:16-17. Second, I Timothy 2:13-14 tells us that Eve was deceived, but Adam was not deceived - had she received the command directly from God, her act would have been deliberate rebellion and not acting from deception.

Genesis 3:6 says that Adam was with her when she ate, and there is no indication that he tried to stop her. Romans 5:12 tells us that sin and death entered the world by one man - not by one woman.

I think this is part of the reason that God calls males only to preach the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ - for they must confess that Christ died to pay for the sins of His people, and that sin was the result of the deliberate disobedience of a male. Males receive authority to proclaim that, and I think males should also bear the responsibility concomitant with that authority.

Marty
[Galatians 3:27-28] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

As important as ethnicity (Jew or Greek), social standing (slave or free), and gender (male or female) are to us poor human beings now, they will have little importance in eternity, where the presence, praise, and love of Christ Jesus overwhelm those matters.

Sing F Lau
The sequence of events... seem to indicate that the woman was not even made yet!
Is that true?

Gen 2
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden...
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
(specifically say HIM, singular. THEM is sued when speaking of the TWO together)
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
(and yes, Nilo, THOU addresses 1st person singular)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him...
21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

So the command was given directly to Adam personally, and he conveyed it to the woman.

Chasey
The very next verse seems to indicate that Adam was alone when God gave commandment:
"18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."
And then Eve was made in verse 22. All of this listed after the verses in question.
Am I missing something here?
Still Thinking.

Shannun
I am going to stick my neck out here and say that she was not at least there when the instruction was given. Note the singular pronoun used here, thou speaking of one person.

Chongg
neither Woman is sinful but Eve was...

Sing F Lau
Chongg, did you read the question?
[Do you see how Nilo, John and Marty and others all deal with the question raised. But your answer show that your mind is distracted by something else... sing.]
Here, let me repeat for you: "When the LORD gave this warning to the man, was the woman made yet?"

And can you explain your statement, please! Thanks.
Why was the Woman not sinful, and why was Eve sinful?

Chongg
Genesis 2:23 is before first Adam commit sin, Genesis 3:20 is after they committed sin, "mother of all living" is a lie by sinful first Adam (notice the name changed from Woman=unsinful to Eve=sinful)

Sing F Lau
Which question are you replying to?
Or are you just regurgitating a lie you have learned from MO???

And how does quoting Gen 2:23 and 3:20 answer the question, "Why was the Woman not sinful, and why was Eve sinful?"

Chongg
I am replying to your second question? "Why was the Woman not sinful, and why was Eve sinful?"

Sing F Lau
And how does quoting Gen 2:23 and 3:20 answer the question, "Why was the Woman not sinful, and why was Eve sinful?" Please explain to us.

Who ate of the fruit - the Woman or Eve in your opinion?

Chongg
could you read my answer again, "Genesis 2:23 is before first Adam commit sin, Genesis 3:20 is after they committed sin" i really need more patient with you, my dear brother

Genesis 2:24 oso explains that Woman and Man are unsinful initially

Sing F Lau .
Here I post the Scriptures you quoted:
2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

So, show us from these passages that the Woman was not sinful, but Eve was sinful - as you stated.

Chongg
KJT uses Adam in Genesis 2:19-21 but not in Genesis 2:23-25...why? the translator made a mistake? KJT is not INSPIRED translation of the BIBLE?
[This is not true. My non-inspired KJB has Adam in 2:23! sing]

Sing F Lau
Your fable that Gen 3:20 constitutes a lie of Adam has been repudiated by your fellow American PBs!!! You still persist in that lie because MO taught you! It is safer for you to learn from the American PBs... not your mentor MO!!!

Chongg, if you CANNOT stay on a subject, then you are indeed as handicapped as your mentor MO!!! Soon, you will lead this thread to KJB as the INSPIRED translation!!!

Chongg
that's a question, pastor Sing F Lau.

Sing F Lau
What is a question?

Chongg
"Soon, you will lead this thread to KJB as the INSPIRED translation!!! " it was initially a question, twisted into a conclusion by Sing F Lau

Sing F Lau
Chong, it was a STATEMENT, and it is still a statement.
If you don't have the basic discipline for discussion, you should just keep quiet and learn a bit. Just my brotherly advice! I have told you before in some other place, you can't even read English properly! Remember you made a fool of yourself with another Chong?

Here is your rhetorical question stated above...
KJT is not INSPIRED translation of the BIBLE?

So I made the statement that you will soon turn the discussion down that road!!!

Here is the original question:
When the LORD gave this warning to the man, was the woman made yet? (the warning in Gen 2:16-17).

The above exchange has been deleted from the FB.
====================

Brother Chongg,
Here is a copy of the thread above I deleted from the FB...
I just felt the exchanges between us is getting nowhere...
- you are incapable of sticking to the subject...
- you are just eager to ride your hobby horse... KJB is an inspired translation, Adam calling the woman Eve was an act of sin, ect.
- you make statements and are unwilling to substantiate them when required...
- you are making statements that make you appear stupid (i.e. lacking common sense) in the eyes of the PBs.

Those are some of the reasons - just so that you know why I deleted the post.
Study to improve on those points and you will be ready to study and discuss.

May our Lord bless you richly.

your brother in Christ
sing
===

Preaching is very necessary, but necessary for what?

 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Those that God has predestinated to eternal salvation, God himself will bring them to eternal salvation, without any assistance or cooperation from finite man.

As a result some conclude that there is therefore no need of the preaching ministry!
But that's a foolish conclusion!

Where then is the place of the ministry of the word? Good question.

It is very necessary for God's children - elect already regenerated by God - to hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation (Eph 1:13). They need to hear and to know the truth of their glorious salvation by grace. God has appointed the ministry of the word to bring temporal blessings to His children here on earth.

The ministry of the word is MOST NECESSARY - but only for the purpose it is ordained by God, not what man has VAINLY imagined. Preachers have been called to feed the lambs... but many have vainly and foolishly think that God have called and commissioned them to HELP God birth His children. The command is, "God, and make disciples..." Too many think it is, "Go and make children of God." God's children must be discipled... instructed and taught the truth of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, taught to observe all the commands of Christ - this will bring them the temporal salvation in this life. The command is, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations..." Only those whom God has already effectually called to eternal life, eternally saved, are capable of receiving teaching from God-sent preachers. Too many foolishly think, "Go ye therefore, and assist God to bring forth His children."

The ministry of the word is MOST UN-NECESSARY for the BEING of God's children.
The ministry of the word is MOST NECESSARY for the WELL-BEING of God's children.

It was never ordained for that purpose. Deluded man has perverted it. I have not heard of a father who ever claim that diapers and baby clothing has anything to do with the BEING, the conception and birth of a child. But there are too many deluded preachers and believers that the ministry of the word and faith has something to do with their BEING as children of God

Without the ministry of the word, not one jot of the eternal salvation of one elect is ever lost. Without the ministry of the word, a child of God is deprived of the temporal salvation which comes from the ministry of the word. That explains the urgency of 'preach the word, be instant in season, and out of season...' That explains the command, 'take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou BOTH SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM that hear thee.'

Would the eternally wise God risk the eternal salvation of His elect by conditioning it upon something finite man must cooperate and assist? God forbids. That's about all I know - and it is a fraction of a drop in the south china sea.

God is sovereign, and I am an optimist.

Now, you may tell me the difference between what I believe and what a Muslim believes about predestination.

sing
excerpt taken from here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/02/many-christians-on-broad-way.html

Believing is a work God requires His children to do!

This is the work of God you shall do...
This is the work that God wants you to do...
It is a work to be done by you. It is work!
Believing in Christ is a work... Christ said it himself!!!

John 6
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Very plain words, are they not? But the blind and obtuse and willfully ignorant will not want to see nor believe it!!! They keep on believing that a condemned man is justified before God by faith, the believing act of the condemned man, justification by faith!

The inquirers are good men who wanted to do the works of God... i.e. the works that God requires of them.

Some want to avoid the obvious, and interpret the inquiry as those men wanting to do the work that God Himself does... just plain stupidity (i.e. lacking common sense)! Supposing you had come to Jesus, and asked the same question, what would you have meant? And did Jesus answer your question, or did He say something completely unrelated to your inquiry???

So they inquired of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Lord Jesus Christ understood their question, and answered them plainly.

They inquired about workS - PLURAL. They are a zealous lot, they wanted to do the WORKS that God the Father requires of them to do.

But Jesus directed their mind to the first and chief work - SINGULAR - THIS IS THE WORK of God. He makes it very simple... this is the chief and foremost work that God requires His children to do - even the WORK of believing Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

Christ himself said BELIEVING in Him is a WORK requires by God... not of every body, BUT of His children... because it is a truth concerning His children, and His children are required and under obligation to believe what is ALREADY true of them... that Jesus Christ is the Saviour sent to save them.

If you believe your faith has anything to do with your ETERNAL salvation, they you are claiming that you are saved by your work; you have denied and repudiated eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace!

p/s

Faith is a saving grace worked within a child of God by the indwelling Spirit, given at adoption, thus called the spirit of adoption. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit; it is not the gift spoken of in Eph 2:8. The gift spoken of in Eph 2:8 is the eternal salvation by free grace! This saving grace ENABLES a child of God to believe; believe is an act of a child of God... it is his activity, i.e. his work!!!