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| The Lord Jesus Christ bless these soldiers!!! One of the silly objections raised against biblical water immersion - "how to do so in the dry desert?" These soldiers show that where there is a will to obey the Lord's command, there is always a way. Also, wherever there are human lives, there is always be enough water for immersion. |
I put up the above on Facebook, and the incredibly specious argument ensued!
Brian
Not a scrap if immersion teaching in scripture. The contrary is true. No Baptist even practices immersion contrary to what they would have us believe.
Mark
needs a history lesson.
Brian
I would like some Baptist show me an example of immersion as the sign baptism. I have yet to see even one. It is pure fabrication.
Needs scripture.
Where do you guys get immersion from? Certainly not the bible.
Sing F Lau
It is like a blind man demanding to be shown the beautiful scenery right before me
Brian, sorry to get you so worked up!!!
If you can get sprinkling from the Bible, remain happy with it!!! The Lord bless you!!!
Brian
No I am not worked up and am not blind either Baptists tell me the Greek word for bsptism means to immerse but they do not practice immersion, they practice submersion. The wirds are different as are the practices.
One would indeed be blind or unwilling to see the number of references to pouring or sprinkling in scripture with regard to baptism.
What does immersion picture in scripture? The drowning of Pharaohs army, The drowning of the wicked in the flood and the final immersion in the lake of fire. All pictures of damnation not salvation.
Sing F Lau
Brian, I said you are worked up, because since our last argument many moons ago on the doctrine of salvation, you have kept so quite... and this baptism issue get you all excited!!!
Perhaps, you can show us your linguistic expertise by giving us your definitions of submersion, and immersion. Thanks!
I think it is pretty twisted and perverse to equate immersion as drowning and picture of damnation. Are the baby sprinklers SO DESPERATE as to come up with such horrid ideas???
It would be very easy for you to give us Scriptures that the NT water baptism is by sprinkling. I'm not asking you to give me Scriptures of sprinkling in the OT.
Brian
Submersion means to be put under water, immersion means to be put into water. Very simple. Baptists always prefix their word immersion with the word total. I don't even remember what topic we discussed in the past. Certainly nothing to do with this in my mind.
In the OT you just need to read the book of Hebrews which refers back to many sprinklings. There is one however which refers to baptism in the NT and is in the OT.
Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
There is nothing perverse in scripture. what I said is exactly what scripture teaches. In the account of the flood and the crossing of the Red sea, baptism took place but those submersed were not baptised and those baptised were not immersed. Is that so difficult to understand?
Sing F Lau
Brian, let me put it honestly with you... you have an axe to grind indeed!!!
I'm no Greek scholar.... but this is what I find from here about the NT word baptizo (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G907&t=KJV).
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
Now, even COMMON SENSE... this is what Chinese calls it...
According to your very own words:
"submersion - to be put under water..."
"immersion - to be put into water..."
You will probably insist that you CAN put something INTO water without actually submersing it UNDER water!!!
I say you must be pretty desperate to say that to put something INTO water does not require it to go UNDER water!!!
If you say that immersion mean to be put ON the water, then you have something worth raving... but the distinction you try to make of the two words is just pure desperation, grasping at a straw!!!
Let me comfort you... hold on to your sprinkling... no one will disturb your peace... but don't make a fool of yourself trying to make a distinction of the two words...
Brian
I am no Greek scholar either and will not argue my point on that basis. There are all kinds of views to be found in lexicons. My interest is in truth and have no interest in talking about me or how you perceive me. I do not at all like immersionism and believe it to be a lie. If I have an axe to grind there it is. Christ Himself refuted the notion that complete ablution of the body is necessary in washing ritual.
Sing F Lau
Hold fast to your sprinkling... I won't disturb you!!!
And now you are equating NT water baptism as an exercise of OT ablution, a washing ritual!!!
I didn't say there is anything perverse in Scriptures. I did say twisting immersion into drowning and a picture of damnation is just PERVERSE!!!
Steve
@ Brian
"Submersion means to be put under water, immersion means to be put into water"
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Brian ... I thought immersion is the same as submersion ... then I read your explanation above!! If something is in the water, isn't that under the water, and vice versa? Unless "under water" means a few drops of water to you?? And you gave the examples of Pharoah's army and the flood, and tie those to immersion ... based on your definition of immersion, how can those two be counted as immersion? Were they put into the water?
But let's get back to the main point here ... baptism itself ... are there examples in the NT of people getting baptized? If yes, can you tell how they were baptized?
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"Where do you guys get immersion from? Certainly not the bible."
Have you ever read the Bible??
Brian
We do not submerge flowers in a vase, we immerse them that is, we put them into water. We do not put them under water. If we put the flowers under water we would indeed be submersing them. If the two words meant the same thing, why do baptists insist that the Greek word used for baptism does not mean submersion but rather total immersion? The word total is being added, why is this?
[Do any one actually IMMERSE the flowers in water??? WEIRD and MAD! To place the stalks of the flowers in some water is not the same as immersing the flowers in water! Please stop the nonsense! To immerse YOUR FEET in a basin of water is NOT THE SAME AS immerse YOU in water! If you insist they are the same, no profitable discourse is possible! --- sing.]
Send me your evidence of baptism by immersion, or show how baptism is pictured by immersion?
Pharaoh's army was submersed not immersed. I used the word immersed above as that was from a baptistic perspective and usage.
My reply, "If the children of Israel had been submersed, they would have perished with Pharaoh and his army. Pharaoh and his army were submersed but they were not baptized; the children of Israel were baptized but not submersed. In fact, their baptism depended upon their not being submersed. Therefore, baptism and submersion are two different things."
I will make it simple for you, show me in the NT where someone was baptized 'IN' water instead of 'WITH' water.
[This is getting sillier every minute. Now he is confusing the MODE (in water) and the MEDIUM (with water) !!!]
Steve
@Brian, thanks for trying to make it simple for me ... but do remember that one will not profit if one is confused or muddled up or deluded and is not aware that he or she is so.
Anyway, back to what you asked for, please check out Mat 3:16 and Acts 8:38.
I suppose it is not necessary to define "baptize" or "baptism" as it has already been defined earlier.
Brian
We need to define baptism but not just yet. First the scriptures.
Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Brian
Was Christ Immersed? by Brian Crossett
Baptists often argue that if we want to know the proper mode of baptism, what better example could we follow than that of Christ himself? And surely He was immersed and not poured or sprinkled with water …
Rather than follow a merely surface reading of a text (and read into it baptist presuppositions), we shall examine the Scriptures, making several points.
1) Jesus went to John the Baptist for baptism when he was aged about 30 (Luke 3:21-23).
2) John forbade Him saying that he needed to be baptized of Jesus (Matt. 3:14). After all, what use was a baptism for the forgiveness of sins, a baptism “with water unto repentance” (Matt. 3:11), to Jesus who had no sin? Jesus answered John, “Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness” (Matt. 3:15) Christ came to fulfil all righteousness (Deut. 6:25), and fulfilling righteousness means keeping the law perfectly. But Christ said that He must be baptized for “it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness,” that is not only Himself but also John the Baptist. Thus Christ’s baptism by John was a matter of keeping the law, but the question is, What law?
3) After Jesus cleansed the temple, the chief priests and the elders came to Him and asked him, as He was teaching, “By what authority doest thou these things?” (Matt. 21:23). Jesus did not evade the question nor did he change the subject. He answered with a question which addressed head-on the issue of His authority: “I … will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven, or of men?” (Matt. 21:24-25). Jesus equated the baptism of John with His receiving authority to do the work of a priest, namely cleansing the temple and teaching in the temple. Ordination alone gives a man the authority to do the work of a priest. Could this be what Jesus was referring to?
4) Hebrews 5:4 teaches that a man must be ordained in order to do the work of a priest: “no man taketh this honour unto himself, but him that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.” Clearly, Christ was ordained as was Aaron.
So let us see what took place at Aaron's ordination. First, in Numbers 4:47, we read, “From 30 years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that came to do the service of the ministry, and the service of the burden in the tabernacle of the congregation." It looks like we are on the right track (that Jesus’ baptism was His ordination) for Jesus was about 30 (Luke 3:23). Second, how were priests or Levites ordained? Numbers 8:6-7 declares, "Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them. And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them …”
So what is our conclusion? Christ was ordained as was Aaron.
Both Aaron and Christ were called of God.
Both Aaron and Christ were ordained when aged 30 or more.
Both Aaron and Christ were ordained by one already ordained (Moses and John the Baptist, respectively).
How were they ordained? Aaron was ordained by sprinkling. Are we to think that Christ was ordained by immersion? Or by sprinkling?
Brian
Was the Ethiopian Eunuch Immersed? by Brian Crossett
A baptist was eager to speak with me on the subject of baptism by immersion. Totally convinced of the watertight case he was to present, and considering me to be a genuine Christian, he proceeded to outline his case.
"Do you read of pouring or sprinkling in the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip?" he asked.
I answered, "Is this example the way you conduct baptism in your church?" He explained that leaving out the irrelevant details, such as the location and the fact that no witnesses were present, it was.
I asked if it were not unusual that his pastor be baptized every time he had to baptize someone? Somewhat puzzled, he stated that his pastor was not baptized every time at all; only the adult Christian was baptized. I responded, "But is not immersion baptism." "Yes," he agreed, "but the pastor does not undergo immersion at each baptism, only the one to whom he administers the rite."
So I asked, "Why did Philip go under water with the eunuch if it was not necessary?" With some hesitation, he said that Philip did not go under water, only the eunuch.
I quoted Acts 8:38: "... they went down both into the water, both Philip and the Eunuch; and he baptized him."
Note the error of the notion that going down into the water is interpreted as immersion since it involves dual immersion. The proper interpretation is that the baptism took place not as part of the going down but immediately after they went down. This is indicated by the conjunctive "and:" "... they went down both into the water, both Philip and the Eunuch; and he baptized him."
Sing F Lau
Oh Brian, you are still at it!!!
You are probably terrified at the thought that you have never been baptized with the NT water baptism!!!
Tell us, if NT water baptism is by sprinkling a few drops water, why did the eunuch waited until there was a body of water for his baptism? Surely there was more than a few drops of water in the water bottle in the chariot!
Tell us, if NT water baptism is by sprinkling a few drops water, why did John bother to perform baptism in a place where there is much water?
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Of course, you may want to imagine that sprinkling is better done when Phillip and the eunuch stood in the water!
The Lord bless you, Brian!!!
Brian
Your questions are fine. Firstly Aenon means springs. There is no body of water in this area that would lend itself to submersion. These were little springs coming from the ground. Many springs.
I was baptised as an adult as was Christ by sprinkling. No terror there my friend. You are wrongly supposing again.
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. This took place in the house of Ananias, no river there.
Do you believe that the washing of a partial part of the body is insufficient to cleanse us completely? Is this why you demean a few drops of water?
Brian
4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Steve
*LOL* .... Brian, "was Christ immersed?" + "was the Ethiopian eunuch immersed?" ... *LOL* ... no offence, Brian ... but I easily saw that coming!
And why do you keep referring to the Baptists?? Sounds like you've some serious bone to pick with them! :-)
"Read into it Baptist presuppositions"?? I do not know how to do that. I do perceive that you're deeply entrenched in your sprinkling and hence, try to twist and turn and wiggle and whatever not in order to get round Scriptures and hang on to sprinkling.
"... straightway out of the water", "...went down both into the water" + the meaning of "baptize or baptism" --- be honest, be honest ... is it sprinkling or immersing?
Brian
I refer to Baptists because that is their teaching. Why do you people keep trying to read personal things into posts rather than keeping to the subject under discussion? Forget about me and concentrate on the topic in hand.
I have shown clearly that the Baptism of Jesus was His keeping the law of ordination and that was by sprinkling of clean water. i read what is there. And sprinkling is there.
Did Philip go under water with the Eunuch? No that would be ridiculous.
Nothing in scripture to point to immersion and certainly nothing of submersion.
How were the children of Israel immersed when they crossed the Red Sea? After all they were baptised there.
How was Noah and his family who were baptized, immersed? No immersion there either.
Sing F Lau
Brian, you are SERIOUSLY wrong if you think Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist has to do with some observation of the old covenant law of ordination!
The baptism administered by John the Baptist is an ordinance instituted for the new covenant!!!
You are stuck in the old covenant... so typical of the baby sprinklers!!!
Hello sir, move on! The new covenant has come!!!
Brian
The covenant has always been for it is the same covenant that existed eternally within the Trinity, a covenant of grace. The scripture is ONE, OT and NT.
Have to go to church now talk later.
Sing F Lau
The covenant of redemption dealing with eternal salvation of God's elect is indeed one and eternal, therefore the same throughout the whole redemptive history... even predating that of the old covenant instituted through Moses. That had become geriatric and were abolished.
Christ instituted the new covenant... and water baptism is a ordinance of the new covenant!
Brian
There is but one covenant as God is one. That is God's covenant of grace OT and NT. The administration in the OT was different from that in the NT but the same covenant with the elect in Christ Jesus. This one covenant is made with all of the elect. Israel of the OT is the church and the church of the NT is Israel. One covenant, one people of God. One promise to Abraham that extends to us today. I will be thy God and the God of thy seed after thee in their generations, even for a thousand generations. If we be Christ's then are we Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.
Sing F Lau
Brian, don't be so obtuse. The book of Hebrews tells us of the old covenant and the new covenant, and the better covenant. So, don't pretend to be obtuse! You are still hanging onto the old geriatric covenant that had been done away to defend your fable of NT baptism by sprinkling!
Brian
The covenant of God is infinite eternal and unchangeable. The administration is different and in this sense is it better. The elect are the one covenant people OT and NT. There are not two separate elects. They are all one in Christ. I am not holding to OT administration. I. am holdingcon to the promises made to Abraham and hiscseed. Which promises you reject and ignore. Again your charge against me is false. I am a son of Abraham in Christ. The promise is to me and my seed as such.
I see you have ignored Ezekiel 36:25. Should this surprise me?
You also ignored my question, what does immersion picture?
You did not answer my question why Philip and the Eunuch were both submersed?
You have not answered my question as to why you practice submersion.
Sing F Lau
"The covenant of God is infinite eternal and unchangeable. The administration is different and in this sense is it better. The elect are the one covenant people OT and NT. There are not two separate elects. They are all one in Christ. I am not holding to OT administration. I. am holdingcon to the promises made to Abraham and hiscseed. Which promises you reject and ignore. Again your charge against me is false. I am a son of Abraham in Christ. The promise is to me and my seed as such."
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Brian, it would help if you could keep to the subject.
You have just agreed with what I said... the covenant of redemption is one and eternal... its administration in the old covenant was shadowy and inferior and was made obsolete by the better and new covenant inaugurated by Christ!
Of course you are holding on to the old covenant... and the proof... you keep appealing to the elements of the old covenant administration that been nullified by the new!
I embrace the promises of God in Christ. The promises were made to Abraham and his Seed, even Christ....
That's not the same as saying the promise is to you AND your seed. That just pure presumption unless you want to claim that all your seed are among the elect in Christ. Otherwise, it is just sheer presumption.
Sing F Lau
I'm not here to entertain your specious questions! I have long ago moved on from such basic subject!
Joey
John 3v23, KJT "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was MUCH WATER there: and they came, and were baptized.
Pj
Sprinkling is a new way to administer the outdated circumcision ordinance of the OT, but baptism is an ordinance of the NT.
Johnny
This soldier is showing to the world, his confession of Jesus, as the Son of God, as his brother. THAT IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT, even "physically." I have no problem with the term "ordinance." I have no problem with the term "immersion." I have no prob...See More
Sing F Lau
Johnny, how is NT water baptism to be observed: by immersing the candidate in water or by sprinkling a few drops of water on the candidate?
Answer this question if you still have the urge to say more. We will leave other topic for other time!
Keep focus please. We are not interest in what you have problem with and what you don't have problem with or what do you care and what you don't care!
Johnny
Examples in the NT, and the word itself, is immersion. OF COURSE. Why do you ask? Don't you know the answer, Sing?
Let me ask you, since you asked me? Churches, that baptize, in order to be members, what about that? Full, under the water, hold your breath, every hair, all the body IMMERSED, all the body RISEN. Does the "MEANING" of baptism of any significance to you, or is simply be baptized. I know your asnwer, as you knew mine/ So, please, answer. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
You often talk more than is necessary!!!
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