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| Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. |
In every nation he that fears God, and works righteousness, in whatever background he is found, IS ACCEPTED with God. God has already effectually called him out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, and perfectly and completely fitted him for eternal glory.
Such a man is ALREADY a child of God, regenerated, for only a regenerated man is able to fear God, and works righteousness. He needs to be converted to Christ - that's the URGENT and NECESSARY work of the gospel ministry!
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10
Such a man is ALREADY a child of God, regenerated, for only a regenerated man is able to fear God, and works righteousness. He needs to be converted to Christ - that's the URGENT and NECESSARY work of the gospel ministry!
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10
Nilo
Sing, you wrote this on your BLOG
"I DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a muslim or whatever, COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign grace, and may die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides." [JS insisted that all those in heaven must have heard and believed the gospel of Jesus Christ; no hearing and believing, no heaven!]
Are you saying that men can be in heaven without knowing Christ?
[May I ask, 'are you saying that your place in heaven is conditioned upon you knowing Christ?'
Are you saved by free grace in order to know Christ, or do you know Christ IN ORDER to be saved? --- sing]
Dallas
likes this.
LG
Correct me if i'm wrong pastor , if i'm not mistaken and in my own opinion this is the belief of hyper calvinism which is absurd cause The only way to the father is thru the son according to john , Jesus is THE WAY,, and the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, people will not be save without the preaching and faith cometh by hearing the word of God. Therefore there is no other way or name under heaven that man can be save except the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
Sing F Lau
Very good question Nilo. Since you ask, I will give you my answer.
I take that the 'knowing Christ' in your question is something that is intimately bound up with the gospel ministry... for "14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" Rom 10.
If you are inquiring about some other form of "knowing Christ', you need to clarify yourself.
There are God's children who never had the CAPABILITY to hear and/or the OPPORTUNITY to hear the gospel, therefore never brought to a knowledge of Jesus Christ. These enter heaven - just as glorified as others.
So, an affirmative yes to your question. Men go to heaven because of the divine work of grace has made them fit for eternal glory. Of these, those that have ability and opportunity to hear the gospel, some are brought to a saving knowledge of Christ. Others are not converted and will not enjoy much of the blessings for God's children in this present life.
I assume that you, together with many others, would insist that every child of God will and must hear the gospel, and brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ - therefore every single one in heaven go there because they have heard and believe the gospel, AND know Christ. In that popular view, a man's entrance to heaven is DEPENDENT upon the actions of many men... the preachers' work to bring the TRUE gospel of Jesus Christ to them, their own works of carefully hearing and correctly believing the true Christ, etc, etc.
The choice is yours, dear Brother Nilo.
Sing F Lau
God's children are converted out of every religion in which they were born into and grow up with, and effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation at God's appointed and approved time... whether out of practical atheism, buddhism, confucianism, donkeyism, earthism, monkeyism, etc... God's children (regenerated elect) are found among all such man made religions!!! They need to be converted to Christ through the gospel ministry.
Sing F Lau
The Lord of Glenn, if what I believe is hyper-calvinism to you, I'm quite happy with it!
If you think the eternal salvation of men depends on the preachers' work of preaching THE GOSPEL, and men's effort of hearing and believing the gospel, I wish you well, Lord Glenn! I wish you well!
Nilo
I think I can agree with the statements of BCOF 1689 regarding this"
"From all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and Christ, in the fullness of time, died for their sins, and rose again for their justification. Nevertheless, they are not personally justified until the Holy Spirit, in due time, actually applies Christ to them.
"Faith which receives Christ's righteousness and depends on Him is the sole instrument of justification, yet this faith is not alone in the person justified, but is always accompanied by all the other saving graces. And it is not a dead faith, but works by love."
LG Robianes
Well for me pastor if you are elect you will be reach through the gospel.
Sing F Lau
"From all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and Christ, in the fullness of time, died for their sins, and rose again for their justification. Nevertheless, they are not personally justified until the Holy Spirit, in due time, actually applies Christ to them." 1689.11.4
From all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and Christ, in the fullness of time, died for their sins, and rose again for their justification. Nevertheless, they are not personally justified until the Holy Spirit, in due time, actually applies Christ to them." 1689.11.3
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Nilo, explain what the Framers meant to you? Surely you must have an idea of what they are saying before you can agree with them!!!
Don't assume they are saying what you think!!!
Nilo
our conversation revolves around the TIME of justification according to this document, in DUE TIME, the HOLY SPIRIT actually applies CHRIST to them who are personally justified, but you declared in your blog that there are MUSLIMS who do not have CHRIST, and thus the HOLY SPIRIT has not applied CHRIST to them, and yet they are in heaven when they die.
Sing F Lau
I have written something on that part of the 1689... read here if you are interested...
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-justification-as.html
Study it... if you disagree with any part... let's discuss!
Nilo
I will do that later, thankks
Sing F Lau
"our conversation revolves around the TIME of justification"
===========
The TIME and the SPECIFIC ASPECT of justification: (excerpt from the above article)
May our Lord bless you with understanding!!!
There is much more then meet the eyes. We need to go beyond sound-byte!
Para 4. The Multi-faceted Jewel of Justification
God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13) 11. Gal 3:8; 1Pe 1:2; 1Ti 2:6. 12. Ro 4:25. 13. Col 1:21-22; Tit 3:4-7.
a. Justification decreed
- by God for all the elect
- from all eternity
b. Justification secured/accomplished legally
- by Christ for all the elect
- at the cross
c. Justification applied personally (stated in para 1)
- by the Holy Spirit to each individual elect personally.
- at effectual calling to grace and salvation.
d. Justification experienced /evidenced subjectively (stated in para 2)
- by the faith of the individual elect (those who do hear and believe the gospel)
- at initial conversion and throughout life.
e. Justification vindicated finally
- by God before the judgment throne
- on the great judgment day
- Conclusion: Justification decreed, accomplished, applied, experienced, and finally vindicated.
Some questions for discussion
Q. Why it is so necessary to distinguish the various facets of justification?
Q. How does ignorance in this injure God’s glory and honor?
Q. How does due recognition of the different facets of justification comfort God’s children?
Q. How does ignorance in this detrimental to God’s children?
Sing F Lau
Nilo said "but you declared in your blog that there are MUSLIMS who do not have CHRIST, and thus the HOLY SPIRIT has not applied CHRIST to them, and yet they are in heaven when they die"
=========
Ah, that's what you think I'm saying! I'm saying no such thing.
You have to demonstrate that I say such things as you thought!
Try it, Nilo... and see whether what I actually said is what you thought I say!
This is what I said, and you quoted verbatim...
"I DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a muslim or whatever, COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides."
========
A man who fears God and works righteousness is a man to whom the Holy Spirit HAS APPLIED Christ personally, OTHERWISE the reverence of God and works of righteousness is IMPOSSIBLE.
A man who fears God and works righteousness is already ACCEPTED with God... God has effectually called him for eternal glory, Christ has been applied to him personally.
A man who fears God and works righteousness is already perfectly fitted for eternal glory... He is made capable of being called out by the gospel. WHETHER he hears the gospel or not, his place in heaven is assured by the FINISHED WORK of Christ already APPLIED to him personally.
Hearing the gospel and converted to Christ is very important... not that he may have a place in heaven... for that is already perfectly settled by the finished work of Jesus Christ applied to him personally... it is necessary and important for saving a child of God from lies and falsehood and superstition and ungodliness... it is to save him to the truth of his salvation by God's free grace!!!
Preston
Roman 3:3,4
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Sing F Lau
Preston, what does the faith of God mean in the passage above?
I'm always puzzled why the KJ translators did not use the word 'faithfulness' in the NT, not a single instant! It is used 22 times in the OT. Thanks.
Preston
Galatians 2:16
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Sing F Lau
Preston, tell us what you understand by that Scriptures!
Preston
I'm no theologian but I will offer my understanding as best I can. The faith of Christ is Christ being faithful to himself in keeping his promise to those whom he loves.
On a personal note, I would rather know he is faithful because , as a man, I fail to be 100% faithful. My faith in Christ is a work of righteousness on my part and since I am apt to waver in my faith and he will not fail in his, I will put my trust in him.
Nilo
I think this is a statement that when examined further, it will be indefensible
SING WROTE:
"I DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a muslim or whatever, COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides."
I SAY
It is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to DENY Christ.
It is impossible for any man to work the works of righteousness acceptable to GOD and still embrace until his dying day, any of the religions of this world. If the HOLY SPIRIT dwells inside a man, it is inevitable but that he will wake up to the error of his ways, and dead works, and come to the true and living God. And how can any come to GOD and not come thru His Son?
Preston
Peter denied Christ, yet he was chosen. The still born infant never chooses and is not choosing him denial of him ?
With all respect to Mr Nilo, I agree with bro sing. Grace covers all and ones denial or acceptance of him is human works and nothing can separate us from the love of God.......
Sing F Lau
"It is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to DENY Christ."
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Nilo, you make one, just one FATAL error in your notion!
How can such a muslim, one who fears God and works righteousness, DENY Christ when he has not even heard of Christ! In your understanding, can you charge a man for DENYING Christ of whom he has not even heard of? How to be converted from ISLAM to any open confession of Christ when such a man has not even heard of the gospel?
Rom 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Just who do you thing Apostle Paul has in mind - God's children destined for eternal glory, or those still dead in trespasses and sins?
Nilo
And you make one fatal error SING. ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way
Sing F Lau
"If the HOLY SPIRIT dwells inside a man, it is inevitable but that he will wake up to the error of his ways, and dead works, and come to the true and living God. And how can any come to GOD and not come thru His Son?"
================
May I inquire by asking you a few simple questions. I hope to hear some answers.
- Does a man who fears God and works righteousness have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him?
- Has a man who fears God and works righteousness come to the true and living God? Before Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius, had he come to the true and living God?
- Is a man who fears God and works righteousness still doing dead works?
- Did the Arminians who die in their Arminianism wake up to the errors of their way?
You asked a question, so I will answer it.
"How can any come to GOD and not come thru His Son?"
A man come to God when God effectually calls him to grace and salvation based solely upon and through the finished work of Christ... That effectual call out of the state of sin and death to the state of grace and salvation is entirely a sovereign divine work, it is WITHOUT human aid, the preaching of the gospel. The gospel ministry is to enlighten God's children of their eternal salvation by God's free grace!
Open confession of Christ by such requires the gospel ministry through human instrumentality. Not all God's children are blessed with the gospel ministry. You will believe otherwise... you likely believe that EVERY CHILD of God will have the gospel ministry brought to him... i.e. every child of God will hear the gospel, and believe Jesus Christ and make OPEN CONFESSION of Christ.
Sing F Lau
"ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way"
========
An assertion does not constitute a truth! You heard that before, haven't you?
If they have heard of Christ but in the wrong way, then have they heard of Christ?
If they heard of Jesus who is just a man, have they heard of Jesus of the Bible?
Nilo
Ah, and so I am able to pierce thru your insinuation Sing.
You allege that the MUSLIM have never even heard of Christ.
but when faced with the facts that they have indeed heard of Christ, and call him Massiyah, and born of the virgin Mary, and went up to heaven, and is coming back again then you double back and say, yes they have heard of him wrongly and that is the same as not having heard of him at all.
[Nilo, I'm concerned with muslims who have never even heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God. Of course there must be muslims who have read, and/or heard of the Jesus Christ of the Bible. But you insist that ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST from the Quran]
Sing F Lau
Nilo, what does "KNOWING Christ in the righteous way that we [you and whoever] understand it"?
Kindly elaborate.
Nilo
But before I let you escape with what I think is your mistake, let us first define terms about
HAVE NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST
which you allege as the case of A righteous muslim who you think will go to heaven even if he does not convert
Sing F Lau
Ah, and so I am able to pierce thru your insinuation Sing.
You allege that the MUSLIM have never even heard of Christ.
================
When you make such statement, I have to assume that to you, Christ may be known apart from the Holy Scriptures and/or preachers sent forth to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ out of that Scriptures.
I assume that you believe that the Quran is capable of giving a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Do I conclude correctly?
Nilo
NO. I just want you to define your own words. You said, the MUSLIM have never heard of Christ.
Do you mean, "have never heard of Christ correctly and biblically?" Or do you mean "have never heard of Christ, like the pagans in the mountains have never heard of Christ"
[You say no to my question, and at the same time you insist that the Muslim already know Christ from their Quran! Isn't that double talk??? - sing]
Sing F Lau
Nilo, don't get tooooo excited. I'm here all the time. I'm no coward, and I don't need to escape.
Remember the subject under discussion, and which you take exception:
A muslim, or a man under whatever religious affiliation, under consideration is a man who works righteousness and fears God.
Nilo
And can you expand your meaning when you said, "
he has not even heard of Christ! In your understanding, can you charge a man for DENYING Christ of whom he has not even heard of?
In your statements here:
Nilo, you make one, just one FATAL error in your notion!
How can such a muslim, one who fears God and works righteousness, DENY Christ when he has not even heard of Christ! In your understanding, can you charge a man for DENYING Christ of whom he has not even heard of? How to be converted from ISLAM to any open confession of Christ when such a man has not even heard of the gospel?
Sing F Lau
Nilo, you need to slow down. I will be here a long while. Let's go back to your words...
You said these:
It is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to DENY Christ.
And I reminded you a general principle...
A man who have not heard of Christ CANNOT be charged of denying Christ... I believe that is quite simple. If you do charge him, he would rebut and say, how do you know I will deny Christ? have you even told me about him? How do you know I will not believe when you preach him to me? And just how would you answer???
But you turn around and insisted that "ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way."
If you insist such, then I can only conclude that the Quran is capable of giving a knowledge of Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures alone!
Now, before you go further, can you just please affirm whether apart from the Holy Scriptures, there is a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Answer this, and I will answer your request for me to define - "I just want you to define your own words. You said, the MUSLIM have never heard of Christ."
Thanks.
Nilo
"The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience. Although the light of nature and the works of creation and providence manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God so much that man is left without any excuse, they are not sufficient to provide that knowledge of God and His will which is necessary for salvation." BCOF
When I wrote:
It is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to DENY Christ.
I meant:
The Muslim has heard of Christ from the Koran, just like the Catholics have heard of Christ from the Bible. Just like the FILIPINOS have heard of Christ from traditions.
All of them do not have the saving knowledge of Christ, whether from the Koran or from the Bible. All of them Deny Christ. Just like the IGLESIA NI MANALO who deny Christ, who is ANTI CHRIST because they deny the Father and the Son.
But you said, the MUSLIMS have never heard of Christ, which I understand to be ignorance on your part of their beliefs, equating them with the pagans in the mountains who have never heard of Christ.
I just want to ask you therefore for clarification.
You know for a fact that MUSLIMS know Christ historically and from the Koran RIGHT?
You know for a fact that they deny that Christ is the Son of God, right?
So they have heard of Christ, but deny the truth about Christ.
do we agree in this part at least?
Sing F Lau
Thanks Nilo... @ "The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience."
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If that's the case, do you still insist that ""ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way"?
From where do ALL MUSLIMS in your assertion hear of Christ? From their Quran? Or from Holy Scriptures or from some preachers who preach Christ from the Scriptures?
Ok ok, you qualified, "but in the wrong way"? Is hearing Christ in the wrong good or bad? Isn't hearing Christ in the wrong way FAR WORSE than not hearing any falsehood at all, than have their minds poisoned by falsehood?
Nilo
I'm with you Sing.
Muslims and Catholics, and Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Protestants, and even Pentecostals, have all heard of Christ, and have believed the wrong way.
So listening from the KORAN or from the BIBLE doesn't make a person RIGHTLY believe Christ. Even some Baptists know of Christ the wrong way.
So all of them have heard of Christ, and God will CHARGE them of believing Christ wrongly. MATT 7:21
Sing F Lau
"Muslims and Catholics, and Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Protestants, and even Pentecostals, have all heard of Christ, and have believed the wrong way."
========
That's a nice assertion! May be you may wish to demonstrate its truthfulness.
Judging from your assertion, you would have to conclude that men are cast into the lake of fire because of they believe Christ wrongly?
Do you believe that God requires the non elect to believe Jesus Christ as their Saviour also, those whom He did not give Christ to be their Saviour?
Sing F Lau
Nilo, I will be back tomorrow.
Enjoy yourself. Keep to the subject... i.e.
"... any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a muslim or whatever, COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in eternal glory."
Nilo
I think the verse I gave says it all. Matt. 7:21
Sing F Lau
Nilo, does a man who fears God and works righteousness fit your idea of Matt 7:21?
Nilo
that is why it is grace, no human effort or understanding can believe CHRIST correctly.
Catholics believe Christ, Baptists who attend our meetings believe Christ, but if GOD does not regenerate them, and bring them to the right knowledge of Christ, they go to the lake of fire. It is evidence that they were never chosen from before the foundation of the world
such as JUDAS who have known Christ, touched him, heard of him, but went to his place.
Sing F Lau
A man must be saved first by God's free grace... that's eternal salvation. A man who fears God and works righteousness EVIDENCES, DEMONSTRATES he is already regenerated. Such a man needs to be brought to the knowledge of his salvation by God's free grace. But whether he is brought to that knowledge of His salvation by God's free grace, he is already made fit for eternal glory...
Hearing and believing the truth of his salvation by God's free grace will do much good to him... but this does not make him any more saved than he is ALREADY SAVED by God's free grace.
A man's place in heaven is not dependent upon a right knowledge of Christ... it is solely dependent upon the finished work of Christ APPLIED to him personally by the Spirit of God, making him perfectly fir for heaven! That's salvation by grace - purposed by God, accomplished by Christ, and applied to him personally when he was still dead in trespasses and sins.... perfectly fitting him for eternal glory. The gospel is SPECIFICALLY INTENDED for such ONLY... the gospel is true of them alone.
Nilo, one last word! I hope you have "the right knowledge of Christ..." I really hope you have the right knowledge of Christ.... else like you say above... there is a lake of fire for those who do not have the right knowledge of Christ! Without the right knowledge of Christ is, according to your standard, evidence that such were never chosen from before the foundation of the world!
Tremble, sir! I wish you well!
Nilo
I hope you have that too SING
I agree with what you said above. The basis of salvation is NOT the right knowledge of Christ but the work of Christ alone.
Where we differ is your belief that people who have denied Christ or are ignorant of Christ even though they have a chance to believe in Christ, would still be taken to be with Christ.
I believe those who are given the chance to live their lives with norman minds, in whatever country they may be in, whatever religion they maybe born into, who were chosen to be with Christ forever, would in their lifetime, experience regeneration, effectual calling, right belief,
Sing F Lau
"Where we differ is your belief that people who have denied Christ or are ignorant of Christ even though they have a chance to believe in Christ, would still be taken to be with Christ. "
================
That's your imagination, Nilo.
I suggest you ascertain exactly what I do believe first, then and only then you start disagreeing, otherwise you may appear foolish.
I often remind my children, when you can't even represent the position of another yet properly, you have not earned your right to dispute! That's my advice for you too!
Your fable:
"I believe those who are given the chance to live their lives with norman [normal?] minds, in whatever country they may be in, whatever religion they maybe born into, who were chosen to be with Christ forever, would in their lifetime, experience regeneration, effectual calling, right belief..."
Apostle Paul proves that your fable is wrong!
Many of God's children among the Jews in his days DID NOT believe Jesus is the Christ. Go, read Romans 9-11. Thanks.
Did all those who died as Arminians have the "right belief"?
Nilo
Why do you play games with words Sing,
YOu said, A MUSLIM .... (may) die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory
I interpret it that you believe that people who have denied Christ or are ignorant of Christ even though they have a chance to believe in Christ, would still be taken to be with Christ.
You said, the MUSLIM has never heard of CHRIST, and so I go with the plain meaning of words as you suggest. Never hearing of Christ means ignorance of Christ.
Sing F Lau
Nilo, if you read words into what I said, why do you say that I play games with words?
You read words into what I say, and then say I believe what you imagine, and then say I play games with words!
What kind of man are you? And when I tell you that your interpretation of what I said is WRONG, you won't accept it, but say I play games with words? Why won't you accept what my words mean?
You see, you INSIST that ALL MUSLIMS have heard of Christ.
Upon that fiction, you then charge that ALL MUSLIMS have rejected Christ.
And now you sheepishly amend a little by saying "never hearing of Christ means ignorance of Christ!
May I ask then, is ignorance of Christ the same as rejection and denial of Christ???
May I ask you, if you have never heard of something, can I accuse of denying and rejecting that thing?
And you assume that my words must be understood in light of your FICTION and FABLE!!!
You are just incorrigible!!!
In fact you INSISTS that ALL MEN without exception, have heard of Christ.
And therefore all who don't believe are guilty of denying and rejecting Christ!
The simple fact is, there are multitude of people, muslims included, who lived and died, without ever having the opportunity of hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without hearing of Jesus Christ - there can be no knowledge of Christ; without knowledge of Christ, how can be there be rejection of Christ? You don't seem to see the perversity of your notions!
Very many in hell have never heard of Christ. They are there because of their sins, not because they have heard and rejected Jesus Christ. Of course there are others that have heard of Christ preached, rightly or wrongly, to them, and rejected Christ!
Many in heaven are there NOT because they have heard and believed Christ. They are there because God purposed to save them, Christ actually saved them, and the Holy Spirit applied that salvation to them when they were dead in trespasses and sins. Others have heard and believed the gospel. There are EVEN rejectors of Christ who are ALSO found in heaven... just ask Apostle Paul about some of the Jews whom he had to deal with in his days!!! Have you read Romans 9-11 yet? Do they fit your theology???
I fear you DON'T quite understand salvation by God's free grace yet!!!
Yours is still salvation through believism, and worst still believism of the right believing of Christ!
Based upon your theory, all the Arminians, because of their wrong beliefs of Christ, will be found in the lake of fire...
You can have that... and I hope you believe Christ right and accurate enough to get you a place in heaven!
Nilo
Sorry Sing, I understand that our definitions can't meet each other. WE are both talking past each other's meanings although we are both speaking english
You said I misrepresent you and I say you misrepresent my position, you just did in your last post
So we can't go on like this, because it will just be vain jangling. Thanks anyway
Sing F Lau
O yes, according to your definition, ALL MUSLIMS, and in fact ALL MEN without exception have heard and known Jesus Christ - even if they never have access to Scriptures, or preaching from Scriptures! And so, every one in hell are there because they have denied and rejected Christ. Do I represent you correctly???
Here are your statements to the effects:
1. "ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way... "
2. And this is because you believe Quran gives ALL MUSLIMS that knowledge of Christ... as though outside of the revealed Scriptures a man can have the knowledge of Christ!
3. In fact you insisted that ALL MEN, regardless of their religions, have ALSO heard of Christ. You said this all encompassing statement - "Muslims and Catholics, and Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Protestants, and even Pentecostals, have all heard of Christ, and have believed the wrong way." [you might have deleted this highly erroneous comment where this quote is taken from.] You probably [sic] fear that if they have heard and denied and rejected Christ, there is no ground to condemned them!!!
Sing F Lau
My position is very simple:
A man who fears God and works righteousness, no matter what religion he was born in and grew up with and remains in until his conversion to Christ through the gospel ministry, is a man already accepted with God and will enter eternal glory whether he is ever converted or not, whether he ever gets to hear the gospel or not. Hearing the gospel and believing in Christ will bring lots of blessings to him here on earth! Without it, he is not one jot less fit for eternal glory.
That's pretty simple, isn't it? If you don't understand, ask. No need to misrepresent; no need to interpret my statement with your own definition.
Sing F Lau
Let me leave a few questions for your thought on the subject.
1. Are there God's children among the great multitudes of Muslims (or whatever religious affiliation)?
- If yes, how did they, who were dead in trespasses and sins even as others, become God's children?
2. Are all of these God's children among the Muslim (or whatever religious affiliation) reached with the gospel and brought to believe the glorious truth of their salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God?
3. What will happen to those children of God among the Muslims (or whatever religious affiliation) that are NOT reached with the gospel and brought to believe the glorious truth of their salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God?
- Your answer may be , "No such nonsense. Every child of God will be reached with the gospel, believe in Jesus Christ, and be converted."
Pj Walters
Trying to be as objective as possible, I believe that Bro. Sing is correct both in his understanding of Scripture here, and in representing Nilo's position.
Pj Walters
But those Jews did have an advantage:
Romans 3:1 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."
Johnny Davis
I'd agree to that, and I was "raving" a bit. Thanks for your fellowship. The covenant deal, in the aggregate forever, in as much spiritual thought as a human can muster, is what I was speaking about. Yet, I do not consider the need to clarify that. This much we can agree on, is that Jesus indeed, was the Messiah, for the whole world, for every human that ever lived, God is no respector of persons, he is loving, he hates sinners because of the imperfection, and his love/hate feelings, or individual sinners, was reconciled by HIM suffering in the form of Jesus, as both deity and personhood (otherwise, what is the big deal - everyone dies, some more horribly, than Christ), and to top it off, the New Testament plainly states that the Messiah was REJECTED by the Jews, his own. So, there was CERTAINLY no advantage to being a Jew, just like it said. Jesus did not turn to the Gentiles, because of rejection. He was a man of sorrows. EVERYTONE rejected him, even his cloeset on earth (Mary and Joesph, there might b e an exception, but let's not "speculate"). Anyway, good to talk with ya. Look forward to another day. ,
Sing F Lau
Never mind... I never get what Johnny want to say... so I don't read much...
I can't even get beyond this sentence... really!!! Too much profound gibberish!
"The covenant deal, in the aggregate forever, in as much spiritual thought as a human can muster."
What covenant deal? What is the aggregate, and why forever?
Robert Cook
I was enjoying the discourse! This is a point I wish to learn more about. My problem with Calvinism or the sister Arminism is what gospel preached is the right one since you have variants everywhere depending on which seminary was attended. I know Sing is right, but I am searching to resolve issues like the Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel to God and was ordained by God to both hear and believe to preach the Gospel to the gentiles, also Jesus chose his apostles and not one refused except Judas who was known from the beginning. I believe that Jesus has preserved his visible church. As to the degree of control I am lost right now. I do not believe that God sends Calvinists or Arminians to preach the truth I think only the Old school Baptists are preaching the truth and are the true church. I will hope to see more on this discourse.
END OF EXCHANGE.
