The Effectual Call - as summarized in the 1689 CoF

 

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The Effectual Call - as summarized in the 1689 CoF

The following are some brief commentary.

What is effectual calling?
This is what the old school Baptists summarized what the Scriptures teach. The chapter on Effectual Call has four paragraphs. They can be summarized as follows.

Para 1
The effectual call of ALL the ELECT stated and defined.

Para 2
a. The manner effectual call is APPLIED to each elect;
b. The relationship between the effectual call and the gospel call.
- The effectually called are enabled to answer the gospel call.
- Those effectually called elect who are capable of being outwardly called by the gospel.

Para 3
Those effectually called elect who are incapable of being outwardly called by the gospel.

Para 4
Those who are not effectually called, since NOT predestinated unto eternal life, but have the outward gospel call

Paragraph 1 - The effectual call stated, and defined.
Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,(1) by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;(2) enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;(3) taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh:(4) renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;(5) yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.(6)  1. Ro 8:30; 11:7; Eph 1:10-11, 2Th 2:13-14.   2. Eph 2:1-6.   3. Ac 26:18; Eph 1:17-18.   4. Eze 36:26.   5. Dt 30:6; Eze 36:27; Eph 1:19.   6. Ps 110:3; SS 1:4.

a. Please note carefully:
- Those whom God hath predestinated unto life refers to ALL the elect without exception; what is said in paragraph 1 is true of all the elect, without exception.
- The effectual call is the calling of an elect out of his NATIVE STATE of sin and death to that SPIRITUAL STATE of grace and salvation, wholly secured and merited by Jesus Christ alone.
- The effectual call requires the almighty power of the Triune God, that is, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. This effectual call to a state of grace and salvation is, by the powerful and sovereign will of the Triune God (God, His Word and Spirit), without any assistance or cooperation of man, being dead in trespasses and sins.
- "His Word" here and "the ministry of the word" in paragraph 3 refer to different subjects; "His Word" in paragraph 1 refers to the life-giving eternal Word, John 1:1; "the ministry of the word" refers to the gospel preaching.
- The effectual call of an elect out of his NATIVE STATE of sin and death to that SPIRITUAL STATE of grace and salvation is a distinct act of the Triune God that is separate from and prior to the gospel call (i.e. the ministry of the word) which is a calling of the effectually called out of their state of ignorance and unbelief to a state of knowledge of the truth of their salvation by God's free grace, through faith in Christ Jesus.
- The former is the calling of the dead in trespasses and sins to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ.
- The latter is the calling of God's children from ignorance to faith in Christ.

b. And what transpires in the effectual call is carefully stated...
- “Enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh: renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace."
- Two SPECIFIC THINGS are mentioned here:
- Firstly: what is done to them: Enlightening the MIND...  Replacing the HEART... Renewing their WILLS, i.e., the WHOLE person is affected by the effectual call out of their native state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation.
- Secondly: the good is determined for them by the almighty power of God. It is "by His almighty power", therefore it is ALWAYS and completely and immutably effectual... always accomplishes its purpose.

c. That which is good is the ETERNAL SALVATION bound up in the person and works of Jesus Christ.
- Each elect is effectually UNITED, by the almighty power of God, to Christ, the fount and spring of their eternal redemption.
: The 'drawing' spoken of here is WITHOUT the gospel means. It is the effectual drawing of the elect still dead in trespasses and sins to Christ by the almighty power of God to that state of grace and salvation.
- In this sense, the effectual drawing/calling is IRRESISTIBLE. Spiritually dead men are summoned to eternal life, the dead are quickened. Not even a man in enmity against God could possibly resist the free gracious act of the almighty God to raise him from his state of sin and death to that of righteousness and eternal life. It is like the dead Lazarus was SUMMONED to life.

d. A common and popular error concerning effectual call needs to be stated here.
- The Calvinists, nearly all of them being gospel regenerationists (i.e. preaching of the gospel is necessary for the Spirit’s work of regeneration), understand the effectual call as God's act of blessing their gospel preaching, making it effectual in bringing the dead to eternal life, and conversion to the truth of the gospel. They insist that effectual calling and conversion are twins, and the preaching is the umbilical cord that connects the two.
- Whether they like it or not, such an idea explicitly implies that without their preaching ministry, there would be no effectual call, i.e. the eternal salvation of God's elect is intimately bound up with their activities! Thus they unashamedly conditioned the eternal salvation of God upon the preaching activity of man.
- They are not contented to accept that their preaching ministry is to feed and nourish the lambs and sheep of God, those that God Himself has effectually called of their native state. They insist that they have an indispensable role in bringing lambs and sheep into being! i.e actively involved in the work of making lambs and sheep, instead of purely feeding them by their ministry of the word.

e. There is one VITAL issue in paragraph 1. It is contained in the phrase, "by His Word and Spirit". These are God's Agents of effectual call, bringing those in a state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ.
- So many new school Calvinists glibly take 'His Word' as referring to their ministry of the word or the written Scriptures. But that does violence to the whole paragraph and the chapter.
- The preached word (gospel proclaimed) blessed to the conversion of the already effectually called elect is vastly different from God’s Word (Christ) and Spirit who are the active Divine Agents in the effectual calling of the dead in trespasses and sins unto eternal life. The Word here is the eternal life-giving Logos, as in John 1:1-2.

f. We must not confuse the two. The word ‘word’ (whether with the upper or lower case ‘w’) SOUNDS exactly the same in each case, but the CONTEXT and the SENSE are entirely different. ‘Sound-byte-itis is a disease!
- A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology. The Framers were clear, consistent and logical. Therefore ‘His Word’ can’t possibly mean ‘gospel preaching’ in a context of effectual calling unto eternal life and salvation.
- The gospel is not an instrument used in begetting eternal life in the elect. It is instrumental only in the conversion of those whom God has effectually called unto eternal life. It is instrumental in the gospel call of those already effectually called to faith in Jesus Christ.
- It is a massive theological blunder to think that Christ, the Word of God, is not active in the work of the new creation in effectual calling. The life-giving Logos is the way, the truth, and the life! He must not be usurped by the ministry of the word.

Q. What are the implications of the clause, “in His appointed and approved time”?
- Can any activity of man speed up the time of the effectual call of a man?
- Can the ministry of the word speed up the time of a man's conversion to Christ?

Q. Is “by His almighty power determining them to that which is good” (original wording) the same as “by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good” (Dr. Peter Master’s revision)? Why?
See here: Monergism degraded into Synergism http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/05/monergism-degraded-into-synergism.html

Paragraph 2 - The manner effectual call is applied, and its relation to the gospel call. 
This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all forseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature,(7) being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;(8) he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.(9)   7. 2Ti 1:9; Eph 2:8.   8. 1Co 2:14; Eph 2:5; Jn 5:25.   9. Eph 1:19-20.

a. The manner the effectual call is applied is spelled out explicitly.
- This effectual call is further defined in its manner of application because of man's natural inclination to pervert and twist the gracious nature of it. It is attributed wholly, solely and completely to the free grace of God, and man’s role and gospel instrumentality are completely excluded.
- In effectual calling, man is entirely passive, being dead in trespasses and sins. In fact, he is actively in enmity and rebellion against God. No amount of preaching has any relevance to a man in such a state. God did not send the preacher to minister to the dead; He sent His preachers to FEED the living lambs and sheep (John 21:15f); those He Himself has effectually called out of their native state of sin and death.

b. The effectual call is POSITIVELY affirmed:
- Attributed to God's free and special grace alone... THUS excluding even the gospel ministry of the gospel preachers, and every human aid or activity! "Alone' means 'alone;' it does not mean 'alone PLUS a little assistance from men.'
- An elect is being quickened, from the state of death to eternal life. No one can do any good to the dead but the Life-giver Himself, and ALONE, without the deluded gospel regenerationists' aid or cooperation.
- The quickened is renewed... saving graces are worked by the indwelling Spirit in the effectually called. Without these saving graces worked in the heart by the indwelling Spirit of adoption, the quickened would still be quite impotent... made alive but still impotent, without strength or power.

c. The effectual call is NEGATIVELY denied:
- NOT from anything at all foreseen in man...
- NOT from any power or agency in the creature...
- Man being WHOLLY passive in the effectual call...
- Man being dead in sins and trespasses...
What more needs to be said! Every possible loophole for a man-assisted idea of effectual calling is excluded; INCLUDING the ministry of the word.

d. The relationship between the effectual call and the gospel call is clearly stated.
- The effectual call to grace and salvation thereby enables a man to answer the gospel call. 

- It is strange that many understand “he is thereby enabled to answer this call” as the effectual call enabling a man to answer to effectual call! That idea has already been completely repudiated in para 1, and the first part of para 2. A man DOES NOT answer to effectual call; he is completely passive.
- A man in the state of sin and death is simply completely passive in his effectual call to grace and salvation. The effectual call needs no man's answer to make it effectual!
- It is the gospel call that needs man's answer/response to make it effectual for the purpose it was ordained, i.e. conversion to the truth of their salvation by the free and sovereign grace. Only the effectually called of the Triune God can be gospelly called by the ministry of the word!
- It is in the gospel call that the Framers say "grace is offered and conveyed" - this is obviously different from the grace and salvation applied freely and effectually in the effectual call, in contrast to being 'offered' in the gospel call)!
- Let the misguided and foolish have fun trying to offer something very good to the dead! 

e. NOTE the word 'thereby.' It is an adverb, and means "by that means; as a result of." By the means of effectual calling, or as a result of the effectual calling, a man is enabled to answer the gospel call.
- That means the effectual call is already completed apart from the gospel call... finished and accomplished... thereby enabling the effectually called to answer to the gospel call, which is distinct and separate from the effectual call! The effectual call is already COMPLETED by free grace when he is enabled to answer... therefore that which he is enabled to answer cannot possibly be the effectual call.
- But the Calvinists’ addiction to and obsession with gospel regeneration blind them to this simple truth. They firmly believe that the effectual call is conditioned upon the gospel call; that is, no gospel call, no effectual call! This way, eternal salvation is conditioned upon their gospel ministry! Their popular mantra is that the effectual call and conversion are two sides of the same coin; they are a twin, and their gospel preaching is the umbilical cord connecting the two!

f. ‘The grace offered and conveyed in it’, that is, in the gospel.
- Grace leading to temporal salvation is indeed offered and conveyed in the gospel ministry. Believing the truth not only brings peace and joy and enlightenment, but it also saves a man from falsehood, deception, lies, and superstitions… see Titus 2:12.

Paragraph 3 - The effectually called who are incapable of being outwardly called by the gospel.
Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;(10) who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth;(11) so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.   10. Jn 3:3,5-6. 11. Jn 3:8.

a. This paragraph deals with those effectually called who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word, either because of their personal inabilities (infants, etc.) or outward circumstances (no opportunities to the ministry of the word). These elect are not left to perish in their sins. They are effectually called in exactly the same way described in para 1.
- This paragraph is a clear and plain repudiation of the popular error that effectual calling is conditioned upon the gospel calling… for such an idea will damn many of those predestinated unto life just because they are not capable of being OUTWARDLY called by the ministry of the word.
- ‘The Spirit who worketh when and where and how He pleaseth’ declares the absolute sovereignty of the work of regeneration, unrelated to the ministry of the gospel. Otherwise, His sovereignty is conditioned by it!
- Note that the gospel ministry is for the sentient children of God, those who are able to hear and perceive. The phrase “so also all other elect persons’ refers to those who are sentient, but who do not have the ministry of the word in their lifetime on earth. Not all of God's sentient elect have the opportunity to have the gospel ministry. This is to repudiate the popular notion of the gospel regenerationists, ‘no gospel call, no effectual, therefore no eternal salvation.’
- Note the distinction between ‘His Word’ in para 1, and ‘the ministry of the word’ in para 3! The former is in the context of the effectual call of the dead to life, and the latter is the gospel call to the conversion of the effectually called to the truth.
- John 3:8 "... so is everyone that is born of the Spirit" PRECLUDES the common ideas that there are different ways the Holy Spirit regenerates the elect, the "normal" way, and the "exceptional" way; i.e. the normal way is with the means of gospel preaching and the exceptional way is without the means of gospel preaching. No, the Lord says, "so is EVERYONE that is born of the Spirit."

b. The infants and all others spoken of in this paragraph ARE those God has predestined unto eternal life. So, it is redundant to say 'elect infant.' It is also presumptuous to claim "all infants dying in infancy are elect" for the paragraph claims no such thing.

Paragraph 4 - Those who are not effectually called, nor predestinated unto eternal life.
Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,(12) yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:(13) much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.(14)    12. Mt 22:14; 13:20-21; Heb 6:4-5. 13. Jn 6:44-45,65; 1Jn 2:24-25. 14. Ac 4:12; Jn 4:22; 17:3.

a  “… much less can men that receive not the Christian religion…”
- ‘Receive not” implies that they have the ministry of the word but they reject the truth of the gospel. Why do men reject the religion of Jesus Christ? They are not effectually drawn by God the Father.
- Those mentioned in para 3 do not have the ministry of the word - either because of their personal inabilities, or by outward circumstances - and, thus cannot be charged as those that ‘receive not’. ‘Receive not’ implies conscious refusal and rejection of what is presented and offered.

b. Only those who are effectually drawn by God can come to Christ through the gospel ministry.

Conclusion
The subsequent chapters show that Effectual Calling out of the native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation involves justification (chapter 11), regeneration, and adoption together with the gift of the Spirit of adoption (chapter 12) - in that order and number.

All these three divine activities are absolutely necessary to bring a man in his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation: justification (applied personally) removes condemnation, regeneration removes death, and adoption removes alienation and bestows all the rights and privileges that belong to the children of God.

The distinction between the Effectual call by the Triune God, and the gospel call through the preachers must be understood. A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

i. Effectual call - from the STATE of sin and death to that STATE of grace and salvation
- justification applied by God’s free grace,
- regeneration by the Spirit of God,
- adoption into God’s family, given the Spirit of adoption to dwell within, who works all the saving graces,
- thus enabled to answer the gospel call.
- distinct and prior to the gospel call.

ii. Gospel call – ministry of the word, converting from a state of ignorance and darkness to the knowledge and light of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 - hearing, understanding, believing
- justification by faith in Christ, experiential with respect to self; evidential with respect to others.                                                                                

A resolution befitting new wives

Eat to live!

(written to a Christian sister on  December 29, 2010 4:53:41)

Dear Sister Y,
By God's goodness, our lives have crossed path, and I pray the Lord will bless this crossing unto mutual edification. It is my prayer that as a servant of Christ, I would be a blessing to you and your husband in the days ahead.

Please let me say that you are blessed with a good husband, one who cares enough for the truth of the gospel, and desire to lead his family in the way of truth and godliness. May our Lord make you a great helper to him. You are blessed to be in a very advantaged and desirable position to begin with. The financial situation of your husband allows you to be a full-time home maker, and work from home as.... That is a privilege and blessing few godly woman are blessed with. Most have to slog away to help make ends meet at home even though they wish to be full time home maker. Of course many women of the world work to keep up with a vain life-style and worldliness.

It is time of the year to make new year resolutions. I hope your new year resolutions include those in this particular direction - be a great helper to one whom you have united yourself heart and soul. To pursue and strive for his well-being and continued usefulness should be your great aim in the new year, and every year, as long as you both shall live. This is because your happiness is intimately and inextricably bound up with his. Do all you can to make sure he remains healthy and strong. There are so many factors that are working against his physical well-being... and it is your great responsibility to protect him from them. Great effort must be made.

Let me be a little specific in what I have in mind. There are some crucial things that a wife can, and must do to protect and preserve the health and well-being of her husband. Let me suggest these things for your consideration.

Begin to learn and pick up the skill and art of a cook, and you will be a good cook serving your family one day. This is one of the greatest thing a wife and mother can do for her husband and children. This is one thing a wife and mother can do to ensure the health and happiness of her family. Many women made themselves widows prematurely because of too much fast food and dining out. Fast food and dining out too often kill many men at the prime of their years... No sane wife and mother would want that to happen to her. Others have so much health problems as a result of careless diet. Many become sexually dysfunctional before their age to the grief and sorrow of their young wives.

Modern diet and eating habits - regular hawkers food and convenient fast food - of many typical Malaysians KILLS!

The convenience and ease of dining out is a great enemy. Abundant disposable income compounds the problem. But love and determination can triumph and overcome it. A wise wife and caring mother alone can provide wholesome, healthy, and delicious meals for her husband and family.

A whole lots of food outside is "good for the taste buds, deadly for the heart."

Learn to cook simple meals from fresh vegetables and meats and fish... begin early and build a healthy family. And if you learn to bake bread n buns, pizza n pies, etc, you will make your family among the blessed few in this world, and yourself the envy of many wives and mothers.

Graciously explain to your dear husband why you want him to eat home cooked meals more often.

Encourage him to choose simple wholesome food. Men are often very careless about their eating habit... and this is where their wives ought to pay special attention as a helper... make sure to have balanced and wholesome meals. Many careless and foolish wives end up with sick husbands and obese and unhealthy children. You can guard yourself against all these evils and heartaches... and prevent them from happening.

Make dining out a luxury on special occasions ONLY. And avoid fast food.

That's your great challenge for the new year, and the years ahead.

Make it your goal to recovering the lost art of a godly home-maker. Do not let other things distract you.

Share with your husband your goal for the new year and the years ahead, and I can guarantee you that you will find the greatest supporter in him, if he wish to live beyond middle age!

And may the Lord bless your husband with grace and wisdom to lead you in the year ahead, to greater godliness and usefulness.

your brother and servant of Jesus Christ,
sing

箴言2:9 你也必明白正义，公正，公平，一切的善道。

Proverbs 箴言2:9

by Solomon's Proverbs Commentary
on Monday, November 26, 2012 at 12:55pm ·

箴言2:9  
你也必明白正义，公正，公平，一切的善道。 

这里有个宝藏 ！正义 ！公正 ！公平 ！一切的善道！任何男人或女人都可以在生活中得到这一些吗？当然可以！如果你追求智慧，上帝将会恩赐你这些。回报是巨大的。而要求则很小。上帝宽慰的提供这宝藏给那些拿出一点努力来获得它的人。读者们！追求智慧吧 ！

以色列的王，所罗门，传道书里的传道者，致力的要他的儿子追求智慧和明白（箴言2:1-4），并承诺奖励里将包含了对耶和华的敬畏和对上帝的认识（箴言2:5） 。基于这种基础和奖励，所罗门又答应说上帝会增加许多的祝福，包括这四种特殊的宝藏（箴言2:6-9）。

什么是正义？它代表一切正确的事情。它知道并执行什么是正确的。它是公正和正直的。它知道并执行让神接受和喜悦的一切。它是让你的思想完全符合上帝完美的想法和标准。如果你的思想和行动让上帝喜悦，那么它们一定会取悦其他的义人（箴言3:1-4） 。

什么是公正？这是正确的判断，精确的意见，到达正确的结论；它充分的包括了精准和慎重的分析能力，智慧，了解和良好的意识。这代表有着正确分析问题，并得出正确结论的能力。

什么是公平？它在任何情况下知道什么是平等的，虽然看到差异，需要慈善和高尚的情操来达成一个公正和公平的结论。它是不偏袒，及公允处理显然是不公平的事情。是公平让别人在无论任何情况下都相信你；因为他们知道你将会公平对待。

所罗门说，箴言是他写下来教导神的子民如何得到这三种德行的（箴言1:3），这是在今天的世界里非常罕见的德行（以赛亚书59:14；提摩太后书3:1-5）。此外，它们都是上帝光荣而又神圣的性质（诗篇  98:9; 99:4）。它们是主耶稣基督的性格和特征（以赛亚书 11:4）。是什么妨碍了你寻求智慧，并获得它们呢？

看看圣经里所描述的义，公正，和公平。它如何保护母鸟和雏（申命记22: 6-7），告诉我们所有的种族都来自相同的血脉（使徒行 17:26），如何保护工作的牛（申命记 25:4），把婚姻和家庭的负担放在父亲的肩上（以弗所书 5: 25-29; 6:4），为穷人提供援助（利未记19: 9-10），教导怜悯比牺牲还重要（马太福音12:7），允许一个教会成员可以在教堂里提出任何事情（马太福音18: 15-17），以财物奖励贞女（出埃及记 22:17），要求教会照顾寡妇（提摩太前书 5: 3-16），教导只有以爱别人来显示真正的爱上帝（约翰一书 5: 1-2）。没有其他的书可与圣经比较 ！

看看世间里所描述的义，公正，和公平。它每年以最难以想象和最暴力的手段杀死十多万未出生的孩子，但却要求基金会来保护七大洲上的动物及禽鸟 ！它禁止对儿童的体罚，但囚禁这种后果所造成的罪犯，有如把动物关在笼子里一样 ！它提供补贴给债务人和懒汉，但以所得税来惩罚诚信和勤勉。它以广告来提倡淫秽的时尚，促进随便的      性行为，保护色情，卖淫和允许任何的因由来离婚，这就是他们所谓的"保护和荣耀"妇女。

但不僅是这三样宝藏会被提供给寻求智慧的人 ！这句箴言还提供，"一切的善道"！一切的善道是什么？它是每个不被列在这三样宝藏中的美德和恩典！荣耀！读者们，有任何语言中的句子比这句更好的吗？如果提供了一切的善道，那么为你提供完善人格的途径就在眼前了！

你如何能得着这四样美妙的事物？在创造者，我们的神之前要谦虚，努力地在祂的经文中寻求祂的智慧。你可以谦卑自己，承认上帝和唯有祂的话语在任何题材里都是正确的吗（诗篇119:128）？你可以拒绝世界上的虚荣思想吗（诗篇 119:113）？祂将奖励你这些伟大的事物。

圣经可以使牧师们完美，让他们更能胜任他们伟大的任务（彼得后书 3:16-17）。如果对他们姑且有如此的功效，试问圣经能为你做的有多少呢？在这世界上除了圣经的光，一切都是无光（以赛亚书8:20）。是你脚前的灯，是你人生路途上的光（诗篇 119:105）。它是一盏你应当认真注意和荣耀的光（提摩太后书1:19-21）。
 

The gospel of free grace : Rom 8:29-30

The gospel of free grace declares Eternal Salvation,
WITHOUT any human activity.

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Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These two verses of the Holy Scriptures are probably the most tortured and abused passages of the Bible. Even the Calvinistic folks messed it up big time!

A few obvious facts about the passage:

1. The object acted upon by the divine activities are co-extensive throughout, an EXACTLY SAME number and people are involved in each activity of God, not one more and not one less, that is, every action applies to EVERY elect, with exception. That's pretty obvious... "whom he did... he also... whom he did... he also..."

2. The divine activities here - foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification and glorification - are all the sole activities of God. All these activities are by the free and sovereign grace of God, i.e. not conditioned upon anything in, by or of the objects. Those acted upon in these divine activities are completely passive, absolutely incapable of helping or even cooperating. In fact they, by nature, were actively in ENMITY and REBELLION against God.

3. Those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are ALL EQUALLY foreknown, predestinated, called, justified, and glorified - no one more, and no one less. Every free grace divine action applies to ABSOLUTELY EVERY ELECT, in absolutely equal and same extent. No exception. The activities here deal with, and secure ETERNAL salvation for the elect.

4. The divine activities stated here are all that are necessary for the ETERNAL salvation of every elect, without exception. There is no room to place other activities into the five-link chain. The five-link chain is complete and DOES NOT NEED other activities of God; and it DOES NOT PERMIT any activities of man.

Why is there no mention of regeneration, adoption, sanctification, etc., etc.?
Why aren't there any gospel preaching, faith and repentance?
Why? Do you know? If you don't, why not ask?

5. This passage says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, ZILCH about all those needful activities that involve human instrumentality (means) and activities that are needful for the TEMPORAL salvation of God's children already made fit for eternal glory. If you imagine that any such activities are necessary for eternal salvation, then you have prostituted the pure gospel of grace, deny true monergism, and end up with synergistic view of salvation - which is so common even among many Calvinists!

When this passage is properly understood, then eternal salvation by God's free grace is adequately appreciated.

I know you may have some objections. I'm ready for them. If you can stick to the subject, comment. If not, don't!

Sing F Lau
There is the ETERNAL salvation which God in Jesus Christ has completely and perfectly work out for His people, and applies to each elect by His Spirit, perfectly fitting each for eternal glory... no human instrumentality is involved the eternal salvation. God alone purposed it, Christ alone accomplished it, and the Spirit alone applies it.
- This is the true context/sphere of 'divine sovereignty' in salvation.

There is the TEMPORAL salvation which God's children (those already bestowed with eternal salvation by God's free grace) have to work out for themselves with fear and trembling for their well being and usefulness in this present life.

The gospel ministry, administered through human instrumentality, is the divinely ordained means for this specific purpose of saints working out their own salvation:
"12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2.
- This is the true context/sphere of 'human responsibility' in salvation. God's children are responsible to work out their own salvation through obedience to the Father's will.

The measure to which men cannot distinguish eternal salvation from temporal salvation, is the same measure to which they are messed up in their understanding of salvation by grace alone! They give lip service to salvation by grace alone but in reality are all work-based salvation to different degree... EVEN the Calvinists!
June 22 at 5:07pm ·

Sing F Lau
‎1. The object acted upon by the divine activities are co-extensive throughout, an EXACTLY SAME number and people are involved in each activity of God, not one more and not one less, that is, every action applies to EVERY elect, with exception.
================
Necessary implications:
1. The call is the effectual call because ONLY IN EFFECTUAL CALL is every elect called. This is God calling an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and eternal salvation.

There is absolutely no gospel call here because there are God's children (regenerated elect) that are incapable of being called by the gospel, either because of inability or not reached by the gospel call.

Gospel call has to do with temporal salvation of God's children. And there are God's children who are not called by he gospel.

However because the Calvinists being ignorant of the distinction between ETERNAL salvation and TEMPORAL salvation, insist that the gospel call is necessary for one's eternal salvation!

2. The justification here is the vital justification by God's free grace because this aspect of justification is true of every elect. This is God's act of justifying the condemned by applying the righteousness of Christ to him personally and forgiving him his sins... when he is utterly incapable of believing.

There is no justification by man's act of believing here because there are God's children who are INCAPABLE of believing... either because of their inability or not called by the gospel.

However because the Calvinists being ignorant of the distinct aspects of justification, confuse the VITAL justification by the free grace of God as the EXPERIENTIAL justification by faith in Christ.
June 27 at 12:19am ·

Sing F Lau
Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
===============
Question: why nothing said about regeneration, sanctification, gospel preaching, hearing, faith and repentance, etc, etc... the MANY things that the Calvinists and Arminians alike insist must be added to the five-link chain?
June 27 at 12:21am ·

Nick
Here's what I came up with on this passage.
http://www.migliacci.com/articles/Rom.8.29-30.swf
June 27 at 3:45am ·

Dellis

‎Sing Question: why nothing said about regeneration, sanctification, gospel preaching, hearing, faith and repentance, etc, etc... the MANY things that the Calvinists and Arminians alike insist must be added to the five-link chain? All are included but still accomplished by God. Regeneration makes it possible for the rest to happen, but still, we are fitted and framed together. The term "we must do these things" does not exist when it comes to eternal salvation, but temporal salvation is something I've never heard of except in the arminian camp where Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly puts a reinstatement of a temproaral salvation to be non existant meaning that if you lose it it is impossible to get it back, If your temporal salvation refers to being able to lose ones salvation.
I also wasnt aware that the arminian had a five-link chain. explain?
June 27 at 8:57am ·

Sing F Lau ‎
Dellis, temporal salvation is the salvation that those whom God has freely bestowed eternal salvation have to work out with fear and trembling through their obedience to the father's will.

Temporal salvation has to do with the well being of God's children while here on earth. Eternal salvation has to do with our being as God's children and our fitness and place in heaven with God.

Here is an example of temporal salvation that God's childrem must labor for themselves...

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

The salvation spoken of here has nothing to do with the eternal salvation that Christ ALONE has secured, and freely applied to each elect, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory.
June 27 at 9:17am ·

Dellis
 ‎Sing Like John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
June 27 at 1:41pm ·

Sing F Lau ‎
Yes, he that follows Christ does so because ETERNAL SALVATION has been freely and sovereignly bestowed upon him... and following Christ will save him from darkness... following Christ a child of God shall have the light of life... his following Christ will secure him temporal salvation... ensures his well being as God's child!

Any salvation that requires the activities of man has to do with TEMPORAL SALVATION.
June 27 at 1:47pm ·

Dellis

But I'm not supposed to believe that am I? I am a calvinist :)
June 27 at 1:55pm ·

Nick
I don’t think we can ever presume upon God and state that we have perfect knowledge about our salvation such that we know infallibly that we have been given this “eternal salvation,” as Sing calls it. Paul was humble enough to recognize that if he didn’t persevere, he would prove himself to be “disqualified,” which means lost. (The same word he uses in 1 Cor. 9:27 he uses in 2 Cor. 13:5). And again in Romans 11:21, he puts the fear of God in us lest we become so “sure of ourselves.” “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” That’s the salvation that takes you to heaven. What does Sing base his knowledge on that he has been given “eternal salvation?” That he prayed the sinner’s prayer?  Surely not!

Therefore, there is no distinction between a so-called “eternal salvation” and a “temporal salvation.” The salvation we are commanded to “work out with fear and trembling” is the same salvation that will get us to heaven (if we do indeed work it out). Sanctification is part and parcel of being saved. No holiness, no heaven (Heb. 12:14). Sanctification is a prerequisite to going to heaven. If a person does not “keep themselves in the love of God” (Jude 1:21), then they would prove that God never gave them salvation—call it eternal or temporal if you want; there’s only one salvation.

I’m a Calvinist and I approve this message. :)
June 27 at 2:06pm ·

Dellis
Nick@ I know where you are coming from but Sing F Lau does makes sense,though what he teaches is true, the wording of is different. EG. it is not our relationship that makes us christians, it is our fellowship. However, Sing used the words sonship and discipleship in the same respect. Sanctification has more to do with God working in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Chastening is the way God gets us to the point of sanctification while here on earth, but if you are regenerate then God has already eternally sanctified you. BTW, calvinist believe OSAS.
Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The above scripture pertain to God's eternal purpose for us. 1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Paul never worried about the destiny of his soul,but he was concerned that his lifestyle in which others in the world saw him were a concern eg.He didnt want to appear to be a hypocrit by living a life that didnt reflect the hope within him.It was for that, that he said to work out with fear and trembling. He for sure knew that God had set him apart(sanctified) him for the purpose of being an apostle to the gentiles.
June 27 at 7:42pm ·

Sing F Lau ‎
Nick, you are indeed a Calvinist, a typical synergist in the doctrine of salvation.

You forgot what Paul said here:
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That's eternal salvation secure for His people... nothing can undo it... not even Satan himself.

Paul is realistic about the real possibility of himself making a shipwreck of his faith... that's concerning his temporal salvation, his well being as God's child.
June 27 at 10:11pm ·

Nick
Yes, I believe the Gospel is “foolishness” to the unbeliever (1 Cor. 1:18; 2:14) and the “aroma of death” to him (2 Cor. 2:16). But that presupposes that he has heard it, does it not? He hears it, it’s foolish to him, and then at the appointed time, God regenerates him (if he’s elect) and it is no longer foolishness to him.

I can see where our views part ways. It’s this idea of a “temporal salvation” versus “eternal salvation.” You mentioned Romans 8:38-39 and how absolutely nothing is able to separate us [you understand that to be those who have been granted eternal salvation] from the love of God. But I would point out that that promise is true only for those who are “in Christ.” So what I stated earlier was that none of us know infallibly that we are in Christ, until we are on our dying bed and can say like Paul that we have fought the good fight. But as long as we’ve got lots of years ahead of us, there is still that possibility that we might make shipwreck of our faith, and prove that God never did, after all, grant us [eternal] salvation. We deceived ourselves in thinking that He did. We would be like that soil which at first received the Word with gladness, but later fell away because of tough times. It’s true that IF God grants [eternal] salvation, that it can never be taken away. That is a blessed promise that we can cling to if we can see evidence of sanctification in our life. But it’s equally true that there are many religious people who have deceived themselves in thinking they have that [eternal] salvation, when in reality they were lost along (Mt. 7:23).  They don’t lose any salvation; they simply never had one.
June 27 at 11:11pm ·

Sing F Lau ‎
‎Nick, then I conclude that your eternal salvation finally depends on your perseverance to the end! I hope you make it. See, somehow human works must always sneak in to play a role in a man's eternal salvation!

I'm sorry you don't think Christ's work has made eternal salvation certain and assured enough for you, that you need to add a CONDITION to eternal salvation. I just hope you meet it!
June 28 at 12:23am

Nick

Christ's work does guarantee me heaven, IF it was for me He died! How do I know that? By looking at God's work of sanctifying me, because God sanctifies all whom He saves. So far, I have every reason to believe I will make it. I press on toward the goal.... I am what I am by the grace of God.

What proof do you have that you have eternal salvation? Because you prayed a sinner's prayer?
June 28 at 12:36am

Nick
‎(I'm glad we're able to finally see where our theologies differ.) I'm sure you are too. :)
June 28 at 12:36am

Sing F Lau ‎
Yes, finally.
Yours is: grace PLUS conditions...

Mine is: grace ALONE.

Yours: no hope for such as Lot, Saul, Solomon... since they did not persevere to the end, they were never saved by God.

Mine: they are as eternally saved as every elect, even though they messed up their well-being big time on earth.

See the difference. I hope you meet the conditions you have set for yourself.
June 28 at 8:15am ·

Nick
But how can you prove that Lot, Saul, Solomon, or anyone else has been "eternally saved", if not by their life (or what the Scriptures say about them, such as putting them in Hebrews 11, etc.)?

Also, the way people were saved before the Incarnation is the same way people are saved today: believing on Christ. Those in the Old Testament looked foward to Christ, today, we look back. Granted, we have more revelation than they did, but still, everyone is saved by looking to Christ. Genesis 3:15 is the "proto-good news". Galatians 3:8 - "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, PREACHED THE GOSPEL TO ABRAHAM beforehand, saying, 'In you all the nations shall be blessed.'" So anybody who didn't believe on Christ went to hell.

You still haven't answered whether it's possible for a regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no. I have been clear with you, why won't you extend the same courtesy? Don't expect your Scriptures to have the same impact on me as they do you, because I don't come with the same presuppositions as you do. So just answer yes or no: Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell?
June 28 at 9:10am ·

Dellis
Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell? That's a kind of crazy question since by being regenerate automatically makes you a spiritual being and makes you cease to be a natural man.
I have no presuppositions since all I know is from what Gods word has taught me,well with the help of the comforter God gave me. If you think about it, those who spoke to God in the OT still had faith though they heard the audible voice of God, saw angels and prophesied according to visions. In the New testament times, faith is in things not seen. So how is it that we are saved by the same faith as out father Abraham? As far as us hearing the gospel, think of it as one man hearing without the understanding and the other hearing with it. Jesus said" all that the Father giveth me shall come to me" so that makes your question about a regenerate athiest impossible. That should pretty much sum up the rest of the questions you posed. I feel I have been clear enough for a seemingly intelligent man as yourself to understand. If not, I ask, Are you a brother in Christ?
June 28 at 10:21am ·

Sing F Lau ‎ ‎
Nick@ Also, the way people were saved before the Incarnation is the same way people are saved today: believing on Christ.

You are COMPLETELY WRONG on one point: Yes, the way people were SAVED by God is the same way people are saved today... there is only one way of salvation... and it is not by believing in Jesus Christ.

You most certainly believe in salvation by works... because believing in Jesus Christ is a work that God expects His children to work.

Here is the proof: John 6
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

IT IS by God effectually calling them out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation based on the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Believing is an EVIDENCE that a man has been SAVED by God, by His free grace. Believing DOES NOT SAVE anyone. Believing evidences the ETERNAL SALVATION already freely bestowed. ONLY the SAVED by God can ever believe.

If eternal salvation is by believing in Jesus Christ, then MANY elect will go to the lake of fire, since many are either INCAPABLE of believing, or have no opportunity to believe because the gospel call to believe did not get to them.
June 28 at 11:53am

Sing F Lau ‎ ‎
Nick @ "You still haven't answered whether it's possible for a regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no."

I will answer your WEIRD Q with a question: Can a child of God go to the lake of fire? Am I asking the same thing? If I am, then the answer is NO NO NO. Regeneration guarantees ETERNAL GLORY - without anything extra or condition on man's part. That's grace, pure unadulterated and uncontaminated grace.

But let me entertain your question: Is it possible for a regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no.

Jesus warn his disciples (apostles):
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Is the warning of the Lord the the APOSTLES a vain warning? Isn't the warning that it is a REAL danger to the disciples...

And Nick, is hell and the late of fire the same in your understanding?
June 28 at 11:01am

Sing F Lau ‎
‎Nick@ Therefore, there is no distinction between a so-called “eternal salvation” and a “temporal salvation.” The salvation we are commanded to “work out with fear and trembling” is the same salvation that will get us to heaven (if we do indeed work it out).
============
In this you are most deluded and confused. You have MIXED eternal salvation by Christ's work. You have just DENIED the completeness and the perfection of Christ's work. You require Christ work to be completed by yours! And you still blah blah blah salvation by grace ALONE. No, you should be honest and say 'salvation is by grace PLUS my work.'

Christ's work ALONE secured your eternal salvation. It is based upon the finished work of Christ that God bestowed salvation to a dead condemned sinner.

Your work of obeying God will save you from 'hell' on earth, and bring you temporal blessings - blessings that pertains to/in this life.
June 28 at 11:11am

Nick
I still do not know what you believe. I'm getting closer, but it's like pulling teeth out of you. Why beat around the bush? Are you saying a regenerate person can remain an atheist all their life and still go to heaven? Do you believe that God will ENSURE that the regenerate all believe the Gospel at some point?
June 28 at 11:15am

Nick
Are you seperating regeneration from sanctification, saying that it's possible to be regenerated but not sanctified?
June 28 at 11:17am ·

Sing F Lau ‎ ‎
Nick@ Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell?
=======
Have you read this:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

Every regenerate KNOWS and WORSHIP God... even though he has never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Look at Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia... all those devout Jews CONVERTED on the day of Pentecost.

The gospel informs and instruct him about his eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace in Jesus Christ.

Hearing and believing the gospel SAVES and sets them free from superstition and lies and errors... teaches them to live soberly, godly and righteously... thus saving himself from ungodliness and worldly lusts in THIS PRESENT LIFE. That's temporal salvation - i.e. salvation that pertains to THIS PRESENT LIFE.

ETERNAL SALVATION by Christ work of redemption has ETERNITY in view... saves from eternal condemnation.
June 28 at 11:59am

Sing F Lau ‎
Nick, just remember this:

Rightly dividing the word of truth is the ESSENCE of sound theology.

Biblical distinction between ETERNAL salvation by free grace alone, and TEMPORAL salvation through the obedience of God's children IS THE ESSENCE of sound theology.

Failure to make this biblical distinction will leave in the cesspool of confusion and contradictions and inconsistencies. Been there for 20 years... and it is joy and delight to be out of it for 10 years now.

May our Lord set you free to see the glorious truth! Amen.
June 28 at 11:23am

Sing F Lau ‎
Nick @ I still do not know what you believe. I'm getting closer, but it's like pulling teeth out of you. Why beat around the bush? Are you saying a regenerate person can remain an atheist all their life and still go to heaven? Do you believe that God will ENSURE that the regenerate all believe the Gospel at some point?
==============

Q1 - I don't ever beat around the bush. I am a slash-and-burn type of man . Rinse your eyes with some eye-salve to see better!

Q2 - answered already. Read it.

Q3 - answered too, but you didn't read. Shame!
June 28 at 11:56am

Pj
‎"And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish." Matthew 8:25
-----------------
Is the salvation under consideration in the context of this verse eternal or temporal?

Is the perishing under consideration herein eternal or temporal?

Take heed unto the doctrine, and save thyself and them that hear thee!
June 28 at 11:31am

Sing F Lau ‎
Nick @ Are you seperating regeneration from sanctification, saying that it's possible to be regenerated but not sanctified?
========

Which sanctification are you talking about - definitive sanctification or practical sanctification?

At regeneration, an elect is definitively set apart from sin and death to that of grace and salvation. This sanctification is once for all, non repeatable, need no improvement. Once set apart from sin and death to grace and eternal salvation, FOREVER set apart to grace and salvation. This definitive sanctification is WITHOUT human means - God does it ALL by Himself.
Understand?

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Calvinists like you have the audacity to ADD to this finished work by Christ... that without practical sanctification a man goes to hell! How much practical sanctification is needed to qualify for eternal glory - can you tell us? And just how does a man know he meets the requirement?

I know what's in your mind - it is practical sanctification that you are concerned with.

Practical sanctification is accomplished through the means of the gospel ministry in the context of the NT local church. Some children of God enjoy this means to a greater degree, others less, and still others NONE. Whatever amount they enjoy, they are all God's children, definitively sanctified, destined for eternal glory!!!
June 28 at 11:46am

Pj
What of the brother's question concerning an atheist?
June 28 at 12:02pm

Sing F Lau ‎‎
Pj, here it is, at the end of the paragraph.
======
"You still haven't answered whether it's possible for a regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no. I have been clear with you, why won't you extend the same courtesy? Don't expect your Scriptures to have the same impact on me as they do you, because I don't come with the same presuppositions as you do. So just answer yes or no: Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell?"
----------------
I wonder what provoked him to ask such WEIRD question?
May be Nick might like to tell us!
June 28 at 12:14pm

Pj
I'm still studying about hell and the separate state of the soul, so perhaps he may be able to tell us more!
June 28 at 12:19pm

Sing F Lau ‎
No, Nick is far from that issue... 'hell' is just 'hell' to him - the eternal state.
June 28 at 12:29pm

Nick
Sing, why do you call my question weird? You yourself said some regenerate people are never (temporaly) sanctified. Thus, they can be a (temporal) atheist, and still be regenerate and go to heaven. By making this man-made disconnection between regeneration and necessary (temporal) sanctification, you have people going to heaven who lived like the devil. Do I understand your view right? I certainly don't want to misrepresent you.
June 29 at 3:44am

Nick
My view, as you probably already know, is that God not only ensures the regeneration of His elect, but He also ensures their sanctification (which you call "temporal sanctification"). And in that way, He ensures they will go to heaven, because no holiness, no heaven. How can a sinner be holy? Only by the working of God in his life.

You may say I believe in a works-based salvation, but that is not accurate; I believe in a salvation based on God's work, and one of His works is His sanctifying work. Yes, I believe sanctification is synergistic (although my work depends on the monergistic initiative of God), but what makes this so different from the Arminian is this: I believe regeneration is wholly monergistic, whereas the Arminian believes in prevenient grace, making the dead man able to choose God. I do not believe dead men can choose God. But once a person has been given life, by all means, they are then made able to cooperate with the Spirit in sanctification. There is a difference between a dead man's abilities, and a living person's abilities.
June 29 at 3:51am

Sing F Lau ‎ ‎
Nick, I call your question weird because it is like asking, "Do God's children end up in the lake of fire?"

It is like asking, "Do my children have immortal soul? Do they need to live well in order to have immortal soul?"

Do God's children need to meet some condition in order to get into heaven?

Do you ever ask question like that?
June 29 at 8:35am

Sing F Lau ‎ ‎
Nick @ You yourself said some regenerate people are never (temporaly) sanctified. Thus, they can be a (temporal) atheist, and still be regenerate and go to heaven. By making this man-made disconnection between regeneration and necessary (temporal) sanctification, you have people going to heaven who lived like the devil.
=========
In discussion, you must guard yourself from putting words into my mouth.

The idea that a regenerate, a child of God can be an atheist is entirely your straw man... and you SHOULD BE ASHAMED of yourself for saying that though I have burned your straw man many times over.

A child of God believes God and fears and reverence Him, even though he may not have any knowledge of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ yet. But you will call a man who has not heard of the gospel as atheist. Was Cornelius an atheist before Apostle brought to gospel to him?

A regenerate has eternal life, and is perfectly fitted for eternal glory... nothing more is needed.
June 29 at 8:37am

Sing F Lau ‎
Nick @ "By making this man-made disconnection between regeneration and necessary (temporal) sanctification, you have people going to heaven who lived like the devil."
===========
"You have people going to heaven who lived like hell' is another cheap straw man - that's your imagination. I didn't say anything like that.

Because you CANNOT accept the idea that there are God's children who do not hear the gospel, you conclude that there are God's children who live like the devil and go to heaven - that's tooooooo puerile to even requires a rebuttal! The straw man does not warrant wasting a stick of precious match.

It is a biblical fact that there are God's children who have no ABILITY to hear and believe the gospel, and also those who have no OPPORTUNITY to hear and believe the gospel.

The Scriptures itself makes the NEEDFUL distinction, but you want to join them together and end up with all sorts of contradiction - i.e. salvation by grace PLUS works.

You join the CAUSE and the effects together.

A man like you rave and rant and foam whole day long 'salvation is by grace alone' from one side of your mouth, and then scream from the other side, "salvation by grace is complement/completed by works."
June 29 at 9:06am

Nick
I've created a Forum where you can clearly explain your position, here:
http://www.migliacci.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=109

What Saith The Scriptures :: View Forum - "Eternal Salvation" & "Temporal Salvation"
www.migliacci.com
June 29 at 8:46am

Sing F Lau ‎
There are many useful articles on the subject. Go and read them and understand them before you start discussing.
In a nutshell:
The saving activities of God secured ETERNAL salvation for His people.

The responding activities of God's children (having been bestowed eternal salvation by God's free grace) secured temporal salvation for this temporal life on earth.

It is that simple and easy.

Heard this saying before? Think about it.

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo Tolstoy –

Thanks for the conversation... I'm thoroughly acquainted with your position... was there for 20 years.
June 29 at 9:04am

Dellis 
It makes sense that you cant teach anything to anyone who already knows it all.
June 29 at 10:23am

Nick
I like that quote by Tolstoy.

Why do you suppose God has not secured temporal salvation for all for whom He secures eternal salvation? Doesn't God care about both equally?
June 29 at 12:53pm

Sing F Lau ‎ ‎
Nick @ "Why do you suppose God has not secured temporal salvation for all for whom He secures eternal salvation? Doesn't God care about both equally?
==========
HARD Scriptural FACTS!
HARD Scriptural FACTS!
I don't supposed anything.
It is you who suppose a whole lots of things.

Nick, supposing God cared about both EQUALLY, then every elect would be equally saved with eternal salvation, and ALSO equally saved with temporal salvation. The former is true, the latter is a obvious fable!

It is a true that every elect is equally saved with eternal salvation, because their salvation is BASED upon the same basis (Christ's righteousness), and the same manner (God's free grace) and the same means (regeneration by the Holy Spirit). This is the sole work of the Triune God alone.

It just a PLAIN LIE that says temporal salvation is equally true for every child of God for the simple reason that temporal salvation is CONDITIONED upon many human factors... which directly affect the degree to which temporal salvation is attained and experienced by a child of God.

If God divinely ENSURES temporal salvation to each of His children, them EVERY ONE of them will enjoy the same degree of temporal salvation, otherwise God's work of ensuring it is just a SHAM and a FICTION!

If God ENSURES temporal salvation, then everyone will know AS LITTLE or as MUCH of the gospel of free grace as you do!!! [no typing mistake!].
June 29 at 2:16pm

Nick
You assume that, if God ensures temporal salvation, that it's God's will that everyone enjoy it to the same degree. I don't believe that. I believe it's God's will that some enjoy sanctification (temporal salvation) more than others, and others enjoy it less. Although, I don't use the word "enjoy." I would say it's God's will that some are more sanctified than others, and others are less sanctified than others.
June 29 at 3:23pm

Nick
But one thing is sure (as far as what I believe): I believe God does ensure SOME level of sanctification by all the elect. How much sanctification is ultimately up to Him, but there WILL be a difference (2 Cor. 5:17) between the regenerate and the unregenerate.
June 29 at 3:25pm

Sing F Lau ‎
Nick @ "I would say it's God's will that some are more sanctified than others, and others are less sanctified than others."
=========
Then you have to prove that such is God's will indeed, otherwise it is your fable.

But the Scriptures is PLAIN AS THE NOON DAY SUN that the level of PRACTICAL sanctification is dependent and determined by the effort of God's children.

"Work out your own salvation..."
"Feed... feed... feed..."

The definitive sanctification for each elect is as complete and perfect as ENSURED BY GOD. Even God's elect who died in infancy are as perfectly and completely sanctified definitively. Even those who have no opportunity to hear, God ensured that they are as perfectly and completely sanctified definitively.

But in term of practical salvation, such have NONE, ZILCH. So, according to your fiction, God FAIL MISERABLY in His work of ensuring some practical in such. Or may be in such, God ensured that they die without practical sanctification.

I would take that your idea is a evil fiction that impugns upon God's character than that God should fail in His work of ensuring different measure of temporal salvation to His children.

If He does ensure temporal salvation at all, it would right to believe that God ensures each child to be equally alike like men such as John Gill or Spurgeon, or Apostle Paul?

Your fiction comes toooooo pathetically far short of God's power and glory! You might as well say it is God ensures that some have NO practical sanctification.

It is like saying a wicked father ensures that some of his children receives no food, others have little and others have a bit more.
June 29 at 5:56pm

Nick

You said, "You might as well say it is God ensures that some have NO practical sanctification. ... It is like saying a wicked father ensures that some of his children receives no food..."

That is where we draw the line. Recall the Parable of the Four Soils. Those who produced ZERO fruit were not saved at all. God ensures that His children bear SOME fruit, some 30-fold, some 60-fold, and others (like John Gill, et. al.) 100-fold.

It's true that we, humans, do have to work out our salvation, but it's God who works in us to do and to will of His good pleasure. So at the end of the day, God is sovereign over how much fruit a person bears. To leave God out of the equation is to deny His sovereignty over man's (temporal) sanctification.
June 30 at 3:23am

Sing F Lau ‎
Thanks Nick. Go your way, brother.

Let me conclude what YOU INSIST:
- God ENSURES that all His children experience temporal salvation.
- God also ENSURES that some of His children experience ZERO temporal salvation.
- The parable of the sower shows God ENSURES some of His children to be fruitless and BARREN.

Please note: the parable of the sower ADDRESSES THOSE THAT ARE IN THE KINGDOM... not how to get into the kingdom, how to be saved, and remain saved, and ensure a place in heaven.

That is your BASIC and fundamental error in understanding the parable.

So, you don't believe that God's children can be fruitless. You insist that the fruitless are not God's children to begin with.

That's a plain contradiction of the plain teaching of the Bible:

Apostle Peter writing to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" warn them in these SOLEMN words:
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Apostle writing to ALL THOSE SAINTS in Corinth and Achaia these words, "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

God's children who are careless will be fruitless. Christ said it, His apostles warn against it solemnly... but Nick rejects it!

Thanks... keep your work-based salvation. I hope you do well enough to qualify a place in heaven.
June 30 at 3:41pm

Dellis
I found that while I was child coming up that many times I did something wrong, something in which my dad would definitely not approve of. While in err I felt guilty and as though I wasnt at peace with dad, if he found out what I had done from someone else,things would just be worse. Our fellowship was lost because of my guilt..I eventually couldnt take it any ,ore amf told him what i had done and ina lot of cases he confessed to already knowing but out of love for the fellowship, he waited for me to confess. He was always faithful and just to forgive,though sometimes a punishment came even after the confession....That reminds me of temporal salvation. Eternal salvation is always on this wise. No matter what sins I commit while here,Christ, my advocate, takes the blame and paid the price and sees to it that all that are given to Him are never lost....this insures that we will, one day, stand before God as sons of God without blame. If you want to have a closer walk with Christ, while here on earth,,stay and be honest with Him because if you try to hide your sins from Jesus.you are only fooling yourself....He already knows.
King David lost a child because of his unconfessed infidelity and murder....He was punished during his temporal salvation but it affected his eternal salvation none....We workout out our own temporal salvation,God worked out the eternal one.
June 30 at 1:21pm

Sing F Lau ‎
Good illustration. Thanks Dellis.
July 8 at 8:29am

Preaching & Evangelism

About 10 years ago... Nov 2002
A friend from a RB church in Malaysia visited a Primitive Baptist Church in the US, and wrote the following observation...

“However, talking to one of their elders (who is their pastor, who preaches here one Sunday a month, but lives in another town about 200 miles away?), I seem to understand that PB does not believe in "gospel evangelism" (I think this was how he put it) - i.e. Salvation is all of God's work; God will save His elects even if no one brings the "gospel" to them. The gospel itself does not save (I agree) and men should not think they are indispensable in the work of salvation (to some extent I also agree) - but my question is "Isn't this the means chosen by God Himself - that His people should go and proclaim the message of salvation to the ends of the earth?" I just wonder if this is a reaction towards the many "man-centred evangelism", which to them seems to emphasise on the importance of God's people to the extent that if they do not preach then God cannot save! Well, what's your thought on this? I will try to find out more about their evangelistic efforts in the remaining two Sundays left here. But I would like to hear your views.
Bee


On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 13:06:51 +0800 sing wrote:
Dear Bee,
Good to hear from you. Yes, I will prepare summaries of the talks for the campers.

I have been on a Primitive Baptist email discussion forum for nearly one and a half years now - it is by invitation only, and I am probably the only non-PB on the list. Genie met me on another discussion forum, Particular Baptist, and sensed that I am committed to the 1689 and was interested to know who are the PBs, so he (as one of the moderators of a discussion list) invited me to join. I have asked countless questions and discussed with them over all sort of issues. I have learned not a little from them. Mostly our differences are centred in the way we state things. The majority of the PB have the 1689 as their doctrinal Standard. But some abhor it!

The manner they express about 'gospel evangelism' is liable to be misunderstood by non PBs. They do believe the preaching of the gospel to all who are able to hear - that is a given to them. Brother Genie said, 'I do think that the overwhelming majority of our ministers believe that the gospel should be preached to every person that God, in His Providence, brings into the hearing range of their messages. We should be actively reaching out to others in the ways that we can. We cannot possibly know who are the elect and who are not the elect----hence our ministers must preach the gospel and let it find its own application as taught plainly in II Corinthians 2:14-17.'

They would shun from all the modern gimmicks in evangelism. They start from the premise that all the elect are already eternally saved ('eternally' not in the sense of 'in eternity', but salvation that is eternal) by the finished worked of Jesus Christ, regardless of what is done or left undone by man - which is strictly true. Salvation in the eternal sense is as secure and as complete for all those whom God has given to His Son Jesus Christ, and for whom Jesus Christ came to save, and the Holy Spirit regenerates in their due time.

The preaching of the gospel will bring these eternally saved elect into the timely and conscious salvation here on earth. No amount of preaching activity will save a non-elect, and no neglect of gospel preaching will cause one of God's eternally saved elect to perish. They would put the matter as starkly as this: 'no amount of preaching activity will save a non-elect, and no neglect of gospel preaching will cause one of God's eternally elect to perish.' BUT don't conclude that they therefore don't believe in preaching the gospel.

They are only countering the common and terrible lies and practices of the Arminians as well as the Calvinists - that eternal salvation of sinners depended on man's acts of preaching, and believing, that without their preaching there is no eternal salvation. [The temporal salvation of God's children do depend very much upon the faithful ministry of the word.]

They are not denying that the preaching of the gospel is the means to gather the ALREADY eternally saved elect into a timely salvation in Jesus Christ. [If you don't understand this statement, please say so, and ask questions!!!].

Your observation may well be right. In reaction to the modern trash, they tend to state the biblical truth in such a manner that it comes as jarring to our ears. But I am convinced that they are dead centred on the matter.

Please discretely ask if any of the old folks there possess Elder Cayce's Editorial Writings (volume 1-7). Some older folks may have them, and it would be very good if we can laid hands on a set of them. They may want to give it away to a friend of the PB in Malaysia . Apparently they are very good writings - rare gem that we have not even heard of!! Otherwise, see if you can borrow volume seven, bring it home, I will make photocopies of it, and return the book to the owner. So, please do this favour for me, if it is not too difficult. Some older folks may have them, and it would be very good if we can laid hands on a set of them.

Elder Genie said about the Editorials, "They are out of print and those that have them do not wish to relinguish them. There were seven volumes covering the time frame from 1896 until 1942 (if memory serves me correctly). My volume 7 and volume I have been borrowed and not returned. I only have five volumes of my own. I now have volume I borrowed but must eventually return it. Elder C.H. Cayce was a very able minister and was editor of the PRIMITIVE BAPTIST paper for nearly 50 years. His son is the present editor. I doubt very seriously that any of us can come up with a set of these writings, but I would be happy for you to read through all of them."

Well, that's all for now. Do keep well, and ask many questions!
Yours by His continuing mercies,
Sing


On 08.11.2002 12:51:45, Hornet wrote:
Dear Bee, 
Would you mind if I chip in my 20 cents worth with regards to comments on PB church. I do not want to be judgmental. I know some of these churches are fine in so many ways and believe me they will be found sitting closest to Christ on the last day.

With the little info, here are my views on 2 points:
1. I seem to understand that PB does not believe in "gospel evangelism" (I think this was how he put it) - i.e. Salvation is all of God's work; God will save His elects even if no one brings the "gospel" to them.  This sounds like they may be hyper Calvinists who do not believe in preaching the gospel to sinners.

2. The gospel itself does not save (I agree) and men should not think they are indispensable in the work of salvation (to some extent I also agree)- but my question is "Isn't this the means chosen by God Himself - that His people should go and proclaim the message of salvation to the ends of the earth?"

The gospel itself saves. It is God's word. It is God's way. It is God's promise to forgive sinners in Christ. God therefore will keep His promises to whomever listens to the gospel and responds to it. It is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16?). That's why sinners get saved in charismatic and RC churches. In this sense, we cannot compartmentalize God and His gospel. No power or person on earth could ever think of the most glorious gospel to save wretched and miserable people. Only God can. That's why we are called to preach the gospel and God honors us by saving hearers only by His power and grace. Whatever is God's originates from Him and so the gospel is God's. He owns it. He authored it. His genius designed it. Because it is from God, it has the inherent power to save. You may disagree.

By His grace
Hornet


On Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:12:16 +0800, sing wrote:
Dear Bee,
== I wonder if Pastor Lau would like to comment on this - this sounds "theological" but it is interesting and helpful for me to have a more accurate understanding of what I really believe doctrinally about evangelism. ==

Yes, it is indeed good to discuss the issue so that we may all come to a closer understanding of the teaching of God's word. To be consistently 'reformed' is not an easy matter. It is contrary to human nature (even a redeemed one) and that explains why many 'reformed' people are actually and unconsciously 'arminianized' calvinists [grin, but a serious one though]. So let us all discuss this matter. I believe the PBs are the thorough bred in this particular issue.

The gospel has no inherent power to save. Gospel is the good news that announces and conveys the good news of the great salvation which has already been accomplished by Jesus Christ for and on behalf of His people, i.e. the elect from eternity whom God has given to His Son, and for whom Jesus came to secure their salvation, and the Holy Spirit applied it to each elect at God's appointed and approved time. And that mission to save His people is as complete and accomplished as can be.

That gospel is commanded to be preached to the world, among whom are found God's elect people, and the redeemed of the Lord Jesus Christ, [and effectually called to grace and salvation.] For this reason, the gospel is to be preached to all, and all hearers who come under the sound of the gospel are commanded to repent and believe in the blessed Saviour. The elect of God and the redeemed of Jesus Christ and the regenerated of the Holy Spirit alone are enabled to embrace the gospel message among the multitudes of hearers. The whole multitude will hear the same gospel message, similarly persuaded and urged to repent and believe, but only the elected, redeemed and regenerated (all of which are sovereign, and without human means) are able to believe because the message is already true of them. In the eternal sense, they are already saved by the finished work of Christ. The gospel message when believed and embraced brings them into a subjective, conscious and timely experience of what is already objectively true of them. Those whom God has eternally elected, and Christ has redeemed by His once for all sacrifice of Himself, and the Holy Spirit regenerated when and where and how He sovereignly wills ARE ALREADY saved with eternal salvation regardless of whether they hear the gospel or not.

Our Confession of Faith recognizes this fact. 1689.10 states like this:

3. Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;(10) who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth;(11) so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. (10. Jn 3:3,5-6. 11. Jn 3:8.)

4. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,(12) yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:(13) much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.(14)

12. Mt 22:14; 13:20-21; Heb 6:4-5. 13. Jn 6:44-45,65; 1Jn 2:24-25. 14. Ac 4:12; Jn 4:22; 17:3.

NOW PLEASE NOTE CAREFULLY: They are people in heaven that have never heard the gospel - why? Because they 'are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. There are elect among the million and million of aborted babies. There are elect among the multitude of 'idiots'. There are also elect among the multitudes of adults who never have the opportunity or ability to hear the gospel in this life.]

Is it not a very blessed thing that ULTIMATELY the eternal salvation does not depend on the elect's hearing and believing the gospel message!!!

OF COURSE, the gospel message is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to bring God's children, those elect who are already effectually called, into a conscious and timely experience of that glorious salvation which has been completely and fully secured for them by pure sovereign grace. AND THAT IS THE REASON why the glorious gospel should be preached to the whole wide world. It is not that the gospel message may turn goats into sheep, but that the sheep may hear the voice of the Saviour and come to Him and follow Him, and know the glorious truth of their salvation. Only the elected, redeemed and regenerated will hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him. They are sheep, therefore they will hear and follow Him. Goats will not. And no among of gospel preaching will turn goats into sheep.

There is already spiritual life even before the hearing, repentance and faith!!! This is a given that any credible reformed Baptist will not dispute. Regeneration precedes repentance and faith. 'Regeneration is that sovereign acts of the Spirit of God by which the principle of the new life is implanted in man, and the governing disposition of the soul made holy, and the first holy exercise of this new disposition is secured.' Regeneration precedes the 'seeing' and the 'entering' of the kingdom of God.

Under all normal circumstances - and the Holy Scriptures deal chiefly with normal circumstances and not exceptional cases, i.e. preaching addresses men and women and boys and girls who ARE CAPABLE OF BEING OUTWARDLY CALLED BY THE MINISTRY OF THE WORD (gospel preaching) - those who come under the sound of the gospel and believe not the gospel has ABSOLUTELY NO warrant to hope that they are partakers of the salvation as it is in Christ Jesus.

Let us conclude with apostle Paul, "THEREFORE, I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." 2Tim 2:10.

Let us also endure all things - all the sacrifices are demanded of us for the tasks and the many trials that we will face as we labours to preach the gospel to all, as exemplified in apostle Paul's life - for the elect sake, that they may be brought into a conscious and timely salvation here and now. [By God’s sovereign acts, they have been bestowed eternal glory; the gospel ministry is that they MAY ALSO, in addition to the eternal glory, obtain the timely salvation which comes from knowing the word of trth concerning Jesus Christ.]

In the world, many of the lives that are conceived never enter into a conscious and timely enjoyments of the good things of life. It is just as true in the spiritual realm. That is more of the exception, not the norm, so also in the spiritual realm. I hope this simple illustration will shed some light.

Thanks for your patience. I have rambled on for too long. Please correct me if I have gone off the old road. Any question which will motivate me to think and study God's word is welcome.

Yours by His continuing mercies
sing


On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:44:45 +0800 Bee wrote:
Dear sing,
Thank you so much for your time and effort in enlightening me in this matter. It was a comprehensive and most helpful answer to my question. I am beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Although I understand the general teaching on the doctrine of election and the command to preach the gospel, I have for a long time tried to grapple with the nitty-gritty of the issue of election-evangelism-mission work.

You see, I was converted in a southern baptist church, and for whatever shortcomings they may have with certain doctrines, the church has grounded me well in the importance of mission work or evangelistic outreach, the importance of local church, as well as in "tithings"/givings to the LORD's work. So in my young spiritual mind, there was the prevailing understanding that "people are perishing in far away corners of the earth because no one brings the gospel to them - that therefore drives the evangelistic efforts of sending missionaries overseas to unknown civilisation and places where the name of Christ has not been heard." At that time (or may be later, I cannot be sure) I used to wonder whether it was rather unfair for God to send these people to hell just because no one has been able to bring the good news of salvation in Christ to them, and this through no fault of themselves. I was no better a sinner than these people in hidden corners of the earth, it was merely a matter of opportunity that I was led to meet some Christian friends who shared the gospel with me.

Later, when I was introduced to the doctrine of election, the thought crossed my mind that perhaps God has His elects in these unknown civilisations and places, and He saves them despite no one brings the gospel to them. However, I was quickly pointed out by someone that "salvation is only by trusting in Christ; no one can be saved without knowing Christ" - And isn't this the teaching of Romans 10:14-15 "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?....." which is often quoted in support of gospel evangelism and mission work. Thus I was left bewildered by this apparent contradiction.

Thanks to your explanation, I think I now understand that people (i.e. the elect) may be saved without the outward hearing of the gospel, but if they do hear it "the gospel brings them into a subjective, conscious and timely experience of what is already objectively and eternally true of them." as you put it. This I can understand. In another word, their salvation is as sure as God has elected them, but their earthly lives would have been so much better/richer if they have come to a conscious/clearer understanding of their salvation and of the God who has saved them - Have I understood it correctly, Pastor Lau?

Well, my next issue may be on "prayer" - which seems to also have the same kind of conflict between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. Can our prayers really make any difference to the (predetermined) events surrounding us? My time is running out now. This business centre in the S V Apartments where I stay will be closed soon and I have to return my key to get my ID card back.

I do wish to have more in-depth understanding of God's word. May God grant the time and the opportunity.
Much indebted to your help.

Yours in His grace,
Bee


On 10.11.2002 14:03:30, Hornet wrote:
Dear Bee,
Pr Lau's comments shed much light on who the PB really are and why their approach to evangelism is different. With that much more information, I would duly withdraw my earlier guarded remark that they MAY be hyper calvinists.

As I alluded earlier, I have deep respect for other brethren (who are not RB) who love God and live godly lives and put me to shame. Honestly, I have much, much to learn from these brethren.

Perhaps I need to explain a bit on why the gospel has inherent power to save. I take the gospel as broadly defined as a message constituting a large part of the Word of God.

Heb 4:12 says, “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

A speech by President Bush may be profound and persuasive yet it is not alive. It is not living and powerful as the word of God. Prolific writings of great men do not discern thoughts and intents of sinners' hearts.

The gospel is inherently living and powerful and thus able to save. Having said that, one has to be consistent in applying all doctrines such as election and the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration and salvation. Otherwise one will risk being branded a heretic.

Therefore the gospel only saves the elect. Election is an act of God. God honours His word. In the sense that the gospel is His word, He will honour it. He jealously guards what is His. The glorious gospel is His and His alone.

However, the gospel does not only save sinners. It condemns the impenitent, the lost (non-elect).
[Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.]

[1Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God]

God does not save those whom He has not chosen - the non-elect. The Holy Spirit does not regenerate the non-elect even though they may have heard the gospel preached a thousand times. As a result, one can be consistent with the doctrine of the sovereignty of God in election and salvation, even though one holds to the notion that the gospel has inherent power to save.

Pr. Lau, I have also read your disagreement with the notion that the gospel has inherent power to save. Thank you for sharing your views with me. I am open to be corrected. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss differences and yet remain in Christ's love.

By His grace,
hornet


On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:52:56 +0800 Bee wrote:
Dear Hornet,
Thank you for your reply. I think it is open to further discussion. I need a bit more time to think about what you have said about your understanding on the "Gospel" and linking that with "the word of God". The word of God is indeed "living and powerful" - But does that mean it (referring to the printed text of the Scriptures)is inherently so? or Does it become so because God/Holy Spirit works through the message contained in His word?

The key issues now it seems to me centre on whether we mean the same thing when we say "Gospel" or the "Word of God", or "inherent"; whether we are speaking in "broad terms" or "strict sense". Do we understand correctly what the Bible means when it uses these words "gospel" and "the word of God"? So much we take for granted until challenged by others. This is interesting - I hope I have some time to study this. Unfortunately I don't have other resources here, except my Bible. A good dictionary and concordance would have been helpful.

In fact, somewhere in 1 Corinthians(?), Paul also talked about the "gospel" that he preached to them ......, “by which they (the Corinthians) were saved”, which may be taken to mean that the gospel had saved them, but I believe we can still reconcile this passage with what Pastor Lau has elaborated for us as the purpose of the gospel.

Well, let us together study to understand the Scriptures better (as iron sharpens iron), for it will make us "wise unto salvation".

Must go back now. Keep the discussion going. I hope Pastor Ho and Brother Daniel can share their thoughts too.

Yours in the bond of Christ,
Bee


On 13/11/02 5:22 PM, Hornet wrote:
Dear Bee
I wish to continue our discourse on the gospel. I have thought through your questions and listed down 12 points for you to be convinced that the gospel indeed has inherent power to save sinners.

I attach MS Word file containing these points [the points sing responded to in the post below.] I will be not have access to email from tomorrow 14th to 26th because I will be going to K…. for a seminar. Pls pray for me.

May the Lord grant us grace to esteem Him and His word.

By His grace
Hornet
------

Dear Hornet,
It is good that we can discuss on this subject. See my response, prefixed by #### to some of your 12 points.
1. Thus far I have held that there is inherent power in the gospel to save. This notion is premised upon the broad definition of the gospel as being part of the word of God. I believe the article by the reformer Theodore Beza may have helped to establish the fact that the gospel is a part of the very word of God. To read the whole article of Beza, please go to: http://www.markers.com/ink/tblawgospel.htm
#### I concur with you and Beza that the gospel is a part of the very word of God, BUT I do believe that the gospel is NOT the same as the Word of God. There is no connection between the gospel as being part of the word of God and the gospel as having inherent power to save. You may wish to establish the validity of your conclusion.

2. The gospel is a message for the salvation of sinners by the grace of God alone (thus implying election and the work of the Holy Spirit), through faith alone, in Christ alone. However, it is not a mere message. It is the word of God. As such, it is an inalienable part of God. It comes from the heart of God’s love. It comes from the mouth of God given through the agency of holy men.
#### Indeed the gospel is a message… I would say it is THE message… i.e. the gospel is THE message of the sovereign and free redemption that has been completely accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ for those whom He came to save. As the message of salvation, it is a part of the word of God, it is not the word of God. The term, ‘the word of God’ when it refers to the inscripturated word of God is larger than the gospel. The whole is larger than a part. Christ has declared, “It is finished.” And the gospel declares that finished work of redemption to the world.

3. The gospel being the word of God has inherent power and life as we have already seen in Heb 4:12. 
#### This is an assertion without proof!!! . You have also moved beyond point 1, i.e. that the gospel is a part of the word of God! Please read Heb 4:11-13 together. Do try to consider whether the phrase ‘the word of God’ may be a reference to the person of Christ, and NOT the inscripturated Holy Scriptures after all. How is the ‘word of God’ in verse 12 related to the pronouns ‘His’ and ‘Him’ in verse 13? Have you ever thought of the relationship?

4. Another proof text that there is inherent power in the gospel is Jeremiah 23:29 - "Is not My word like a fire?" says the Lord, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?”
#### I don’t see how this passage is related to your thesis. It certainly reminds me that God does not threaten in vain. I need help.

7. The New Testament also does treat the gospel interchangeably with the word of God. One example that comes to my mind is Romans 10: 15-17

Rom.10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
#### The gospel is THE message of glad tidings of good things, THE message of free and full salvation secured by the Lord Jesus Christ for poor undeserving people, THE message of reconciliation from God to ill-deserving sinners. The gospel message has NO inherent power to save because ‘they have not all obeyed the gospel.’ The message itself is not the good things themselves, but declares and announces the good things. If it has inherent power to save, then it ought to save all those who hear it! The gospel message has to be blessed by the Holy Spirit to be effectual to CONVERT sinners. “For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit…” Without prior regeneration of the Holy Spirit, there can be NO faith, there can be no power to bring about the conversion.

#### The gospel is not the same as the word of God. One is a subset of another. The gospel is part of the Holy Scriptures, but NOT the Holy Scriptures itself. They cannot be used interchangeably. Peter Masters has argued cogently that many Reformed Baptists are not preaching the gospel even though they are great expositors of the word of God!!! They have ceased to be evangelistic, gospel preachers.

8. One reason why the gospel has inherent power is because the Lord has promised in the great commission that He will be with us when we present it to people. This reinforces the fact that God’s word (gospel) is inseparable from God.

Mt.28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen
#### The reverse is the truth. It is precisely because the gospel message has NO inherent power, but only the glorious message of the free salvation accomplished by the glorious and omnipotent Saviour for poor ill-deserving rebel sinners, that the promises in the Great Commission make sense. If the gospel has inherent power, then the promises - ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth… and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age’ - would be entirely redundant and superfluous! All authority is invested in Christ Jesus, not in the gospel! And it is Christ’s power through His Holy Spirit by the word of regeneration that makes preaching of the gospel effectual to the salvation of those whom Christ died for. Because so, it is absolutely necessary for the exalted Lord to present with His church even to the end of the age! The gospel message only points to the person of the exalted Saviour

[ Disciples can only be made out of those whom God has effectually called to grace and salvation. Those still in sin and death can’t possibly be made into disciples.

9. Not only is the gospel identified as the word of God, but in the NT the apostle Paul equates it to Christ Himself. The following verses proof this:

- 1Cor. 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!
#### I can’t see how this verse will serve your purpose!

- 1 Cor.1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
#### The gospel is the message concerning Christ and His work. So to preach the gospel one must necessarily preach Christ. But this does not mean that the gospel message is the Christ. If I receive a letter from you, telling me lots of things about you, I must not conclude that the letter is the same as you, of whom the letter speak. The person and the message about the person are different entities!!! Romans 1:17 says, “For in it [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed…” The gospel reveals the righteousness of God, i.e. the righteousness of God’s provision, which is none other than Christ Jesus our Lord. Apostle makes a clear distinction between the gospel of Christ and Christ Himself. Christ Himself also preached the gospel, Mt 4;23, Mk 1:14, Lk 3:18, etc. The two are clearly distinguished.

- 2 Cor.4:5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake.
#### The gospel message begins and ends in Christ, from the ‘seed of the woman’ to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. He is the essence of the gospel message.

- Col.1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
#### I can’t see how this verse will serve your purpose!

10. I believe herein lies the key to understanding why there is inherent power and life in the gospel. The gospel is Christ. Would that be too far fetched a conclusion? Paul one moment says he preaches the gospel and in the next says he preaches Christ. He wants us to believe that the gospel is emptied of its glorious power if it is devoid of Christ. The gospel is the good news of the birth (why, when and how), the life, the death, the burial and the resurrection of Christ. So the gospel is the person and the work of Christ.
#### The gospel is not Christ, but the gospel declares and announces Christ and His finished work of redemption.

11. We have established that the gospel is the word of God. We have also established that the gospel is Christ. Lastly, we must also establish from Scriptures that Christ is the Word. This is easy as John plainly tells us:
#### In point 1 you have asserted that the gospel is part of the word of God. You have now advanced a step further and declared that the gospel is the word of God, i.e the gospel is the same as the word of God has been established! That is a very big jump. But the apostle does make clear distinction between the gospel and the word of God. The gospel is a specific part of the word of God. The word of God is a term that embraces the whole of the inspired Scriptures.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
#### Christ the eternal Word is a completely distinct entity from the historic inspired inscripturated word of God. We must not confuse the two. The John 1 passage does not serve your proposition that Christ is the word of God (i.e. inspired Scriptures.)

12. In Christ the infinite wisdom, power and glory of the whole Triune God dwells. He is indeed Jehovah. Colossians 2:2,3,9,10: Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.#### Amen, but the passage does not serve your proposition.

John Owen in his book, The Glory of Christ, written on his deathbed suggests that the whole world should have been destroyed, vaporized when the Lord God became incarnate 2000 years ago. Mary’s womb rightly should not have carried and contained the Almighty, Holy God who became a cell, an embryo on that momentous day.
But Christ is full of grace and truth as John says:

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
#### Amen and amen, but the passage lends no support to your proposition!

And therefore we have the gospel of grace, the gospel of peace, the gospel of Christ.
#### The gospel of (genitive) Christ declares Christ as the glorious and all power redeemer of all who believe in Him, who has power to draw sinners unto Him. Christ said, and repeated it, “No one can come unto me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…” The triune God alone has the inherent power to save – which is made known in the gospel.

Paul warns us, Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies (1Cor.8:1). Knowledge for knowledge sake evokes pride in us. This disease afflicts many, ministers included. Knowledge and doctrines should not be sought merely to satisfy one’s theological and intellectual curiosity. Most sadly, some Reformed Baptists these days esteem big heads and gifts more than grace - that distinct mark of unconditional election and free pardon for sins.
#### I THANK YOU FOR A VERY TIMELY WARNING. You are my dear brother. May our glorious and powerful Saviour keep and preserve me to preach the glad tidings of good things about Him.

It is a pleasure to study the word of God together.
Your by His continuing mercies,
sing


On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:32:42 +0800 sing wrote:
Dear Bee
It is good for us to exercise our mind together in seeking for clearer understanding of God's word. Perhaps we should set up a discussion list so that the people of our churches can discuss all sort of things easily. It would enhance fellowship and promote clearer understanding of God's word. It is relatively easy to set up a discussion list at yahoo.com. May be we can call it 1689mysg@yahoogroups.com. ('mysg' stands for Malaysia and Singapore).

My little interaction with brother Hornet's post is attached. Please be charitable with me where I may gone off the old road.

Yours by His rich mercies.
sing


On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:23:03 +0800 Bee wrote: 
Subject: Summing up my understanding on the issues under discussion.

Sing and Hornet,
I thank you both for the sharing of your thoughts on the above issues. I have also independently given these some thoughts myself. Human languages are indeed limited in expressing fully one's understanding, thoughts or ideas, especially on spiritual matters. Nevertheless, written word remains the best (albeit not perfect) tool we have in communicating thoughts/ideas to each other.

Therefore, let me try to sum up what we together have agreed:
1. Ultimately it is GOD ALONE WHO CAN and DOES SAVE sinners.
2. Only the elects of God will be saved.
3. The Gospel is the Good News which, from the beginning, and by His grace and mercy alone, God has announced to His Church: those who, by faith, embrace Jesus Christ shall partake of eternal life in Him (Rom 3:21, 22; John 6:40). [as summarised by Theodore Beza].
4. Only those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit can respond to the gospel call.
5. Only those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit can respond to the Gospel (by believing in Christ as the Saviour) when it is preached to them.
6. The Gospel is a part of the word of God; it is contained in the inscripturated word of God.
I would like, at the moment, to focus my thought on "whether the gospel has the inherent power to save". If by "the gospel" we mean including also "the work of the Holy Spirit in regenerating the hearer/recipient of the gospel", perhaps then I can see how the gospel can be considered to have the inherent power to save. But this means that every time the gospel is preached, it is accompanied by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, and so everyone who hears it will be saved - but this we know for a fact is not so.
The writing of Theodore Beza also helps to shed some light on this [his quotes are in the parentheses]:

[I say, therefore, that the Gospel is not "letter", that is to say, only a dead doctrine which sets before us in their bareness and simplicity (I do not say those things which it is fitting for us to do -- for that is the office of the Law) the things which it is necessary for us to believe: that salvation is promised freely in Jesus Christ to those who believe; but it is "spirit", that is to say, a powerful means full of efficacy from the Holy Spirit, and He uses it to create in us the power to believe the things which He teaches us, that is to say, to embrace free salvation in Jesus Christ.]

[Firstly, even as there is only one Saviour (Matt 1:21; Acts 4:12; 1 Tim 2:5), there is also only one doctrine of salvation which is called Gospel, that is to say, Good News (Rom 1:16).]

I understand from the above quotes that
1. Christ alone is the only Saviour, i.e. the One who saves.
2. The Gospel is the only doctrine of salvation, i.e. the teaching on how one is to be saved.
3. The gospel is "spirit" only because of the efficacious work of the Holy Spirit. Beza said that He (the Holy Spirit) uses it (the Gospel) to create in us the power to believe ....... This seems to me that Beza was saying the Holy Spirit is the One who has the power, but the gospel is the means by which that power is manifested/channelled. Did I understand that correctly?

Let me try to use an illustration to explain what I understand by "inherent" (NOT that I claim to have the correct understanding of the word):
Light by its very nature and by definition can illuminate. So anything that falls in its path will be illuminated by it, whether you like it or not. Thus, anything/any person that the light shines on will be made visible, even if that thing/person cannot itself/himself percieve it (for example a blind man). This means the power of the light to illuminate/shine is NOT dependent on the recipient or other condition but on its very nature, i.e. inherent. So I can say that light has the inherent power to illuminate.

Now if I use this analogy for the Gospel (as having the inherent power to save), then I would have to say that the Gospel has the power to save whomever it is preached to, regardless of other factors (e.g. whether he is an elect, or whether he has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, or whether the person wants to believe it or not, etc.). And this I will have problem to accept, and I believe you will too.

But I know, Hornet, that you don't mean what I have just said in the paragraph immediately above. If I understand you correctly, you take "the Gospel" as all-encompassing to include also the work of God in electing and the power of the Holy Spirit in regenerating; that the gospel of Christ cannot be separated from God Himself, even in discussion.

Having considered all that have been said, I believe that we don't differ in our fundamental understandings on the Gospel or God's means of saving sinners (?), but we differ in the way we conceptualise these beliefs or the way we structure these thoughts in our finite minds or perhaps the way we express these thoughts in words.

I have found it helpful to know that God's people may have a different understanding when we use the same word, and thus it is often good for us to find out what each other means when we appear to have a difference of opinions. The discussion has helped me to recognise my deficient/shallow understanding of a particular doctrine and the need to be more precise/searching in the study of God's word. It just amazes me how God's word can be understood to different levels/depths. If we have not discussed, I would have remained at that shallow level!

I thank you again for your inputs. And I think Pastor Lau's suggestion to set up a discussion list at yahoo.com is a very good suggestion. I wonder if the fraternal would like to deliberate on that suggestion, but please do open that platform of discussion to the "non-fraternal" people like me. Looking forward to the opportunity to learn God's word together.

Yours in the bond of our Blessed Saviour,
Bee