Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:56:01 +0800
Pastor,
Some thoughts below in red. Didn't manage to get as far as I planned.
I've copied the chapter on Effectual calling here for ease of discussion.
“Those whom God has predestinated to life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time to effectually call by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death which they are in by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. He enlightens their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God. He takes away their heart of stone and gives to them a heart of flesh. He renews their wills, and by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good. He effectually draws them to Jesus Christ, yet in such a way that they come absolutely freely, being made willing by His grace.” [1689.10.1]
Effectual call:
a) happens in time
b) is by His Word and Spirit
c) the elect is called out of sin and death - to grace and (/eternal/) salvation - addition mine
d) how this is done? (i.) enlightening the mind to understand (ii.) removal of sTom heart (iii.) gift of heart of flesh (iv.) renewed will to desire and pursue good (v.) drawn to willing come to Jesus Christ
What I understand this to say?
1. In Effectual call - regeneration and faith happens. The language of the chapter speaks of regeneration. Para three mentions regeneration specifically. Para 1 speaks of the elect being caused to have a desire good, and to pursue spiritual good, being drawn to Christ, coming willingly to Christ- all these speaks of saving faith (non-meritorious).
2. Justification, if you follow the order of the Confession and Rom.8, comes after Effectual call. Regeneration is not mentioned in the chain of salvation because it is part and parcel of Effectual calling.
Yes, I can agree heartily that (Virtual) Justification took place at the cross, before faith. But Actual Justification takes place /after/ effectual calling (regeneration and faith). Hence we are justified by the faith of Christ and by faith.
To make sure we are both talking about the same thing, I'm attempting here to synchronise what we both have said:
1) Justification in the mind of God - DECRETAL
2) Justification at the cross - LEGAL / VIRTUAL
3) Justification when a sinner is being saved (the process of effectual call-justification) - PERSONAL / ACTUAL
4) Justification before men - EXPERIENTIAL / DECLARATIVE
My understanding of Justification:
(Actual) Justification is the gracious act of God imputing the righteousness of Christ to a believing sinner, pronouncing him to be just and accepted before Him. Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God only as an instrument by which the sinner receives and apply Christ and His righteousness.
My lunch-hour theology lesson period has expired. But I trust if we can agree/disagree on some of the things said in red- that will be progress (in either direction!!).
sustained by grace
Tom
Message 12
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:44:53 +0800
Brother Tom,
I have been thinking of the paragraph below:
Tom: The puritans wrote about Virtual, Actual and Declarative Justification. The first is at the cross, the second by faith and the third by faith and works. (I think I have represented that somewhat correctly!!). I find that to be a helpful way of understanding the whole doctrine of justification.
I refer you to this before. If you have James Buchanan classic work on Justificaton, you may be interested to read Lecture VIII, Proposition II & III (pg 233-ff Banner edition). There is a helpful discussion on Actual and Declarative Justification. It is quite obvious that faith is always related to declarative justification.
I suggest:
We are 'virtually' justified by the faith of Christ.
We are 'vitally' justified by the free grace of God. God applied it freely by His grace to each elect personally.
We are declaratively justified by our faith in Christ.
[Let me say now that the term 'Actual' is not expedient at all because it is going to cause MASSIVE confusion later. It is better to use 'Vital' or 'Applied' or 'Personal.' The adjective 'Actual' in the noun 'Actual Justification' and the adverb 'actually' will cause LOTS confusion when they are distinguish properly. See the example here.
- Virtual/Legal justification actually takes place at the cross.
- Actual/Vital/Personal/ Justification actually takes place when legal justification is applied at effectual calling.
- Declarative/Experiential Justification actually takes place at faith in Jesus Christ. Please notice now when does each aspect of justification ACTUALLY takes place.
Which aspect of the Justification ACTUALLY takes place must be determined by the context... not the adverb 'actually.' Just because the word 'actually' appear in the statement, it DOES NOT necessarily mean that Actual Justification is the subject. Declarative Justification actually happens at the point of believing, i.e by faith.]]
Thanks for the privilege to study and learn with you.
By grace, I remain
your brother in Christ,
sing
Message 13
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:44:53 +0800
Brother Tom,
Thanks for the reply. I am glad the discussion could continue.
I copy 1689.10.1 here: take extra note of the bold portion.
"Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,(1) by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;(2) enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;(3) taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh:(4) renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;(5) yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.(6)"
I will insert some comments in your red notes below:
Tom: Effectual call: a) happens in time
## Amen. An elect must exist and has being, already conceived in sin and subject to condemnation of death, before he can be called out of sin and death to grace and salvation BY GOD - but at God's appointed and accepted time. This applies to each and every one whom God has predestinated unto eternal life.
Tom: b) is by His Word and Spirit
## Amen, the Second and the Third Person of the Godhead are actively involved with the First person of the Godhead in the effectual calling of / every / elect out of his state of sin and death to grace and eternal salvation. Read paragraph 3 and you must conclude that 'His Word' can be none other than life giving Word, the Eternal Logos. The physical creation was by the Word of God... John 1, even so, in the new creation.
All the elect are effectually called to grace and salvation in exactly the same way... all by God through His Word and Spirit, including all those in paragraph 3.
Tom: c) the elect is called out of sin and death - to grace and (/eternal/) salvation -addition mine.
Each and every elect is called out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature in exactly the ONE same way. What is stated in 1689.10.1 covers and embraced each and every one whom God hath predestined unto life. None is excepted. Your addition of 'eternal' is good and proper, and indicates increased in understanding, for the salvation secured by the effectual calling is indeed of eternal nature, as distinct from the temporal salvation that comes from the gospel call to conversion, i.e. salvation from ignorance, from ungodliness, from this perverse generation, etc.
Tom: d) how this is done? (i.) enlightening the mind to understand
## God's act of enlightening the mind to spiritually and savingly understand the things of God in effectual call is distinct and separate from the enlightened mind actually understanding the things of God through the ministry of the word. The former is the divine cause, the latter is the effect through ministry of the word. The former is the prerequisite and which enables a mind to do the latter.
Tom: (ii.) removal of stony heart > (iii.) gift of heart of flesh
These are two sides of a same coin, dealing with the 'heart.'
Tom: (iv.) renewed will to desire and pursue good
Please check again if the Confession is saying what you say. (I know you take your quote from Met Tab's edition. The Confession from which I quoted above, reads, "... and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, ..." (the original one as used by Sam Waldron in his Exposition of the 1689 CoF, the same wording found in the WCF).
I am sure you will recognise the vast and unbridgeable gulf between saying what the renewed will of an elect is enabled to do, and saying what God, by His almighty power determining the elect to that which is good, even grace and salvation.
Tom: (v.) drawn to willing come to Jesus Christ
In effectual calling to grace and salvation, the whole person is radically affected: his mind, heart and will are dealt with by grace of God. Please note that effectual calling to grace and salvation is also described as:
- God, by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and that which is good is none other than grace and salvation.
- God, by His almighty power effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ, to be united to Christ.
- Please read 1689.13.1. It is those that are drawn and united to Christ at effectual call that possesses a new heart and a new spirit created in them. Faith is a grace exercised by, and an activity of, those who are given a new heart and new spirit in the effectual call.
Also note a very basic fact about effectual calling and being drawn to Christ: this being drawn to Christ is true of each and every one whom God has predestined unto life. One basic and simple lesson: this being drawn to Christ in effectual call cannot and does cannot refer to being drawn to Christ by the ministry of the word. It is a plain fact that not each and every one whom God has predestined unto life are drawn to Christ by the gospel... the Framers specifically say so... 1689.10.3.
Tom: What I understand this to say?
I am glad you have some understanding of the Confession. Let us study and compare them.
Tom: 1. In Effectuall call - regeneration and faith happens. The language of the chapter speaks of regeneration. Para three mentions regeneration specifically. Para 1 speaks of the elect being caused to have a desire for good, and to pursue spiritual good, being drawn to Christ, coming willingly to Christ- all these speaks of saving faith (non-meritorious).
You would agree that in effectual call, a person is called out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation.
- The language of paragraph 1 speaks of the radical changes accomplished in the person of the elect by those divine acts in bring a person out of a state of sin and death - the mind, will and heart of the elect are radically affected.
- The language of paragraph 1 describes the effectual call to grace and salvation as God's almighty power determining the elect, who are by nature in the state of sin and death, to that which is good.
- The language of paragraph 1 describes the effectual call to grace and salvation as God's almighty power effectually drawing the elect, who are by nature in the state of sin and death, to Christ, to be united to Christ.
In effectual call, faith cannot and does not happen. Faith does not come into the picture in effectual call to grace and salvation. Common sense, logic and theology require this: faith is the effect of effectual call to grace and salvation.
Paragraph 2 is explicit on this point. The effectual call to grace and salvation enables a child of God to answer the gospel call. The enabling is the effect of the effectual call, and therefore cannot and does not figure in the effectual call.
1689.10.2 reads, "This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead."
Brother, I very much fear that your idea of saving faith in 1689.10.1 is simply not there. You may be simply and genuinely misled by the reconstructed wording. See 1689.14.1 for saving faith, which is ordinarily brought forth by the ministry of the word. Faith can only be brought forth from those that are effectually call. Faith, and not life, is ordinarily brought forth through the instrumentality of the preached word. Faith can only be brought forth from those that have the grace of faith worked in them, because of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Paragraph 1 does not mention about saving faith. It certainly does speak of a state of grace and salvation that enables an elect to exercise faith, because faith is a fruit produced of salvation.
You mentioned that regeneration is mentioned in paragraph 3, and that's certainly true. But effectual call to grace and salvation involves far more than regeneration.
Let me inquire concerning those mentioned in paragraph 3 - are they justified, (using your preferred terms - virtual, actual and declarative)? Tell me their justification in each aspect. Thanks.
Brother, why is it so hard for you to accept the plain wording of the Confession with regard to the order of justification and regeneration in the effectual call? If you disagree with what the Confession say, I can understand. But if you cannot see that the Confession is plain as noonday sun concerning the order of actual justification and regeneration, then I am very puzzled.
It is so simple, is it not? Read these declarations again:
1689.11.1 - "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..."
1689.12.1 - "All those that are justified, God vouchsafed, in and for the sake of His only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption..."
1689.13.1 - "They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated..."
These words don't require a theologian to figure out the order... of actual justification and regeneration. If you disagree with the Confession, just say you see but disagree, brother. You won't offend me. It will save me wasting time showing you…
Tom: 2. Justification, if you follow the order of the Confession and Rom. 8, comes after Effectual call. Regeneration is not mentioned in the chain of salvation because it is part and parcel of Effectual calling.
## Brother, please take careful note that the passage in Rom 8:28-29 speaks of each and every one of the elect... every divine act here applies to each and every one of those predestinated to eternal life. Please let this simple and obvious fact sink into your mind, for it will help you save you from much inconsistencies. Too many are too blind and ignorant of this obvious and simple fact... and its necessary implications.
Lesson 1 - the 'call' spoken of refers to effectual call, and not the gospel call, as so many new school Baptists imagine. The simple fact is that each and every one of the elect are effectually called to grace and salvation, but there are elect that do not have the gospel call. Please tell, which call - the Divine effectual call to grace and salvation or the gospel call to conversion - is true and applies to each and every elect of God personally?
Lesson 2 - the justification spoken of refers to that aspect of justification that is true of each and every one of those predestinated to eternal life. This certainly cannot be that aspect of justification that requires faith... for there are elect who are incapable of being called out by the ministry of the word, and therefore do not exercise faith. The aspect of justification spoken of can only vital/personal justification applied personally at effectual call to grace and salvation. Any other way, you will end up with some elect without vital/personal justification, but to perish under the condemnation of death. If you want to have that, then I have failed in my effort to practice James 5:19.
Please tell, which justification - vital (actual) or declarative (experiential) - is true and applies to each and every elect of God personally?
Brother, you are right that regeneration is not mentioned in the chain. There is a very good reason. Justification and life (regeneration) are intimately related. Justification involves the imputation of the righteousness of life... this warrants and guarantees the regeneration to eternal life... and adoption, those born are adopted into the families and have access to all the privileges of sons.
Consider just two passages where the justification, righteousness and life are so intimately and inseparably related.
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."
To be imputed personally with the righteousness of Christ is to be given eternal life... all at effectual call. I have said that effectual call to grace and salvation REQUIRES and INVOLVES justification (actual), regeneration, and adoption - in that number and logical order. That is the plain and obvious order summarised in the Confession. If you disagree, demonstrate what you believe to be the order.
Tom: Yes, I can agree heartily that (Virtual) Justification took place at the cross, before faith. But Actual Justification takes place /after/ effectual calling (regeneration and faith). Hence we are justified by the faith of Christ and by faith.
## Actual/Personal/Vital justification takes place / at / effectual calling to grace and salvation. Each and every elect are vitally and personally justified at effectual call out of the state of sin and death. An elect in the state of sin and death cannot exercise faith to receive Christ's righteousness.
Declarative justification takes place / after/ effectual calling, i.e. after an elect has been enabled to receive the gospel call to believe 'the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.' The faith of a person /declares/ his state of having been effectually called to grace and salvation.
We are 'virtually/legally' justified by the faith / of / Christ.
We are 'vitally/personally' justified by the free grace of God. God applied it
We are 'declaratively/experientially' justified by our faith / in / Christ.
Tom: To make sure we are both talking about the same thing, I'm attempting here to synchronise what we both have said:
## I hope we both are getting more synchronised with the biblical truths summarised in the Confession.
Tom: 1) Justification in the mind of God - DECRETAL
## Agreed.
Tom: 2) Justification at the cross - LEGAL / VIRTUAL
## Agreed.
Tom: 3) Justification when a sinner is being saved (the process of effectual call-justification) - PERSONAL / ACTUAL
## I wouldn't see effectual call to grace and salvation as a process. It is instantaneous.
- Though the logical order is justification, regeneration and adoption, these happen simultaneously in the instantaneous act of effectual calling to grace and salvation.
- The elect are personally justified at effectual call when they are utterly unable to exercise faith... being ungodly, dead in sin, in enmity against God, children of wrath, children of disobedience.
Tom: 4) Justification before men - EXPERIENTIAL / DECLARATIVE
## Agreed but please note the real difference between experiential and declarative. By faith in Christ the elect experience the blessedness of their / VITAL / justified states... Gen 15:1-6 and Rom 4:1-5. By works and faith the elect are declaratively justified before men, and in their own conscience.
Tom: My understanding of Justification: Justification (Actual) is the gracious act of God imputing the righteousness of Christ to a believing sinner, pronouncing him to be just and accepted before Him.
## I repeat what I have said above: The elect are personally/vitally justified [actual justification] at effectual call when they are utterly unable to exercise faith... being ungodly, dead in sin, in enmity against God, children of wrath, children of disobedience.
You believe that God justifies a believing sinner. I believe that God justifies a sinner in a state of sin and death, in a state when he is incapable of believing, in a state when there is no possibility of believing.
You be the judge of what the Confession says [and what common sense says].
Tom: Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God only as an instrument by which the sinner receives and apply Christ and His righteousness.
## I am lost for words for such a statement as this. What does it mean? May I ask: How is a sinner ever justified in the sight of God? Does his faith play any role in his justification before God? Read 1689.11.1 again. What does faith, an instrument by which the justified receive and rest on Christ's righteousness, do? Justifies him before God?
Tom: My lunch-hour theology lesson period has expired. But I trust if we can agree/disagree on some of the things said in red- that will be progress (in either direction!!).
## Brother, keep it up! Theology is for all children of God - not just for the pastors. Any study of God's word will benefit everyone engaged in it. Either way I am a winner... whether you show me my error, or the truth, I am a winner.
By grace, I remain
your brother in Christ,
sing
Message 14
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:56:59 +0800
Brother Tom,
This is a 'short' one.
Tom: 1. We are virtually justified by the faith of Christ - Agreed
2. We are actually justified by saving faith
3. We are declaratively justified by evidential faith - Agreed
> I think the main difference between what you are proposing and the standard reformed position is No.2
Please tell me, in whom can you find saving faith - in a justified (vital/personal/actual), regenerated and adopted elect, or one in a state of sin and death? Can an elect still under vital/personal condemnation of death believe in order for to be vially/personally justified?
Or does an vitally/personally justified elect believe in order to be justified declaratively/experientially before his own conscience and men?
Your No, 2 contradicts everything 1689.11.1 declares.
We are really vitally/personally justified [actual justification] by God's free through the faith OF Christ, through His righteousness at effectual call from out of sin and death.
What is the difference between saving faith and evidential faith as are use in the No. 2 and No. 3 above? Thanks.
I fear ‘virtual/legal justification’ at the cross does not figure in the soteriology of the 'standard reformed ' position represented by Peter & co. It is explicitly denied - in black and white at the very beginning of my discussion with them. All he knows and insisted upon is what you and I agreed as 'declarative justification' by believer's faith in Jesus Christ. That's the one and only street Peter has in his Justification Town. The sum total of his understanding of justification is 'no faith, no justification.' Anything beyond that is 'serious and fundamental errors' to their thinking.
With respect to the vital/personal justification, as taught in the Scriptures and faithfully summarised in the Confession, this also does not figure in the soteriology of the 'standard reformed ' position represented by Peter & co. In the place of biblical doctrine of vital/personal justification by God's free grace through the faith OF Christ applied at effectual call, they certainly have the declarative justification by their faith IN Christ. And worse, they mistake this declarative/experiential justification by believer's faith as the vital/personal justification by God's grace at effectual calling.
Do you appreciate now why I have all along insisted that their view is 'inadequate, deficient and inconsistent'?
'No faith, no justification' is true in the declaratively sense only. It covers one aspect of the doctrine of justification, therefore inadequate and deficient. To confuse declarative justification by faith in Christ as vital/personal justification by God's free grace inevitably lead to all sort of inconsistencies. There is only ONE little lane in Peter's Justification Town - what a shame.
sing
"And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not" Acts 28:24
Message 15
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 07:07:59 +0800
Brother Tom,
If you have time, read this piece that was sent to the ReformedBaptist discussion list on Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:55:52 +0800
Subject: FW: 'the alone instrument' and 'the only outward means'
RB brethren,
What do you think is the connection between these two statements from the 1689 Confession of Faith:
1689.11.2:
"Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;(6) yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.(7)"
1689.20:4: [chapter 20 not found in the WCF]
"Although the gospel be the only outward means of revealing Christ and saving grace, and is, as such, abundantly sufficient thereunto; yet that men who are dead in trespasses may be born again, quickened or regenerated, there is moreover necessary an effectual insuperable work of the Holy Spirit upon the whole soul, for the producing in them a new spiritual life;(8) without which no other means will effect their conversion unto God.(9)"
[As an aside, note in passing the unbiblical idea among the 'standard reformed' folks who insist that regeneration does not produce life, but some abilities to hear and believe IN ORDER that one may obtain eternal life through believing. The Confession plainly states that the effectual insuperable work of the Holy Spirit produces spiritual life in men who are dead in trespasses. Some folks give lip service to the Confession while holding to ideas that are blatantly contrary to it. It is knowingly bearing false witness against the Holy Spirit!]
Does 20:4 shed any light on the meaning of 11:2? I wonder have anyone made the connection.
What is the connection between faith as 'the alone instrument of justification' in 11.2 and the gospel as 'the only outward means of revealing Christ and saving grace' in 20.4?
What is the connection between 'justification' in 11.2 and 'Christ and saving grace' in 20.4???
I suppose we can agree that there must be 'Christ and saving grace' in the person through the effectual calling out of sin and death to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ BEFORE they can be revealed through the gospel call. The preaching of the gospel can't possibly reveal 'Christ and saving grace' in a person when there is no 'Christ and saving grace' by the effectual call in that person. When you shine the spotlight into thin air, you don't expect to see any shadow produced by the light beam. But when it falls upon an object, a solid shadow shall be produced by that solid object. Where there is 'Christ and saving grace' as the result of God's gracious and sovereign work of effectual call, the gospel call (the spotlight) shall reveal that gracious work of God by casting a shadow called faith. Thus 'Christ and saving grace' and 'justification' through the effectual call is revealed through the gospel ministry.
Perhaps we can also agree that there must be 'justification' in the person before it can be revealed through the sole instrument of faith, i.e. of receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness by the preaching of the gospel. The effectual call is the sovereign and gracious work of the Triune God in calling an elect out of his state of sin and death to grace and salvation by Christ Jesus (1689.10.1). The effectual calling to grace and salvation involves justification, regeneration, adoption (1689.11-13). Only such a person can be called out by the gospel (1689.14). So, justification is intimately related to 'grace and salvation.'
A justified person is in a state of grace and salvation by God's free and sovereign grace. And this state of grace and salvation is revealed and made manifest by faith (receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness) through the gospel preaching. Faith is the alone instrument appointed by God to make manifest the justification that has taken place by the free and sovereign grace of God. Faith manifestly declares that the believing person is indeed a child of God, by the work of effectual calling. Faith doesn't makes a person a child of God. Faith demonstrates and evidences that he is ALREADY a child of God by God's free grace. Only a child of God will believe in Christ... because he has been begotten to newness of life in Christ.
The gospel (the good news of what God has done... not the news of what God will do conditioned on man's response), the only outward means of revealing Christ and saving grace, is to call forth faith, i.e. receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness; and faith is alone instrument of justification, the alone instrument or the only outward means of revealing, manifesting, demonstrating that justification HAS TAKEN place by God's grace while ungodly and dead in sin.
simple thoughts,
sing
Message 16
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:39:35 +0800
Brother Tom,
For your information, a mail to Dr Peter Masters.
your brother and servant in Christ,
pastor lau
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:44:58 +0800
To:
Dr Peter Masters,
Greeting in the blessed name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I note a very significant difference in your rendition of the 1689.10.1 and that of the original.
Original:
"Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh:(4) renewing their wills; and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;(5) yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.(6)"
Your rendition:
“Those whom God has predestinated to life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time to effectually call by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death which they are in by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. He enlightens their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God. He takes away their heart of stone and gives to them a heart of flesh. He renews their wills, and by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good. He effectually draws them to Jesus Christ, yet in such a way that they come absolutely freely, being made willing by His grace.
The original has
And by His almighty power determining them to that which is good.
Yours has
and by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good.
Could you please explain the reasons why you have rendered the original the way you did? Have you preserved the meaning of the original?
I wrote to a brother these words:
"Please check again if the Confession is saying what you say. (I know your your quote is from Met Tab's edition. The Confession from which I quoted above, reads, "... and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, ..." (the original one as used by Sam Waldron in his Exposition of the 1689 CoF, the same wording found in the WCF).
I am sure you will recognize the vast and unbridgeable gulf between saying what the renewed will of an elect is enabled to do, and saying what God, by His almighty power determining the elect (in sin and death) to that which is good, even grace and salvation."
I have written on several occasions in the past with questions on the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith inquiring about your commentaries within the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith but you were always too busy to reply. I trust you would give a reply to this one. I would really appreciate it.
sing
Sungai Dua Church (1689 Baptist)
Message 17
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:54:14 +0800
Pastor Lau,
I don't see a significant different in thought between the two rendition, because in Effectual Calling they are drawn to Jesus Christ, coming freely and made willing- Regeneration and faith is spoken of in Effectual Calling. Justification comes only in the next chapter, if you want to follow the order in the confession. The same order appears in the Roman 8 passage. That is God's appointed means of saving the elect.
Thomas Watson in his Body of Divinity explains it thus: “Justification is an act of God’s free grace, whereby he pardons all our sins, and accepts us as righteous, in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us, and received by faith alone.”
John Owen: “Faith justifies a sinner _in the sight of God_, not because of those other graces which do always accompany it, or of good works that are the fruits of it, nor as if the grace of faith, or any act thereof, were imputed to him for his justification; but only as it is an instrument by which he receiveth and applieth Christ and his righteousness.”
Both Watson and Owen were alluding to Actual Justification by faith- where it is the non-meritorious instrument whereby the sinner receives and apply Christ and His righteousness.
Watson and Owen both living around the time of the Particular Baptist had a 'Reformed Baptist' type understanding of Justification by faith i.e. Actual Justification by faith rather than Declarative Justification that is being referred to in their discussion. So far the weight of evidence does not seem to be in the 'Old School' Baptist side. ??
merely standing on the shoulder of large men,
a brother, Tom
Message 18
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 22:15:51 +0800
Brother Tom,
Tom: I don't see a significant different in thought between the two rendition, because in Effectual Calling they are drawn to Jesus Christ, coming freely and made willing- Regeneration and faith is spoken of in Effectual Calling. Justification comes only in the next chapter, if you want to follow the order in the confession. The same order appears in the Roman 8 passage. That is God's appointed means of saving the elect.
May be you are right... there isn't a significant difference between
"..., and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good."
". And by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good."
May I ask you to consider:
- IF it is God's almighty power that causes them (remember, the context requires 'them' to mean each and every one of the elect) to desire and pursue that which is good, does God's almighty power always accomplish this, i.e. causes each and every one of the elect to desire and pursue that which is good? Is God's almighty power in this, if it is true, always effectual? I fear that if this is the meaning, then God's almighty power has actually failed miserably in Lot's case, and many others.
- IF it is God's almighty power that determines them (remember, the context requires 'them' to mean each and every one of the elect) to that which is good, that is, to grace and salvation (the context demands this), then God's almighty power always accomplishes in calling each elect out of the state of sin and death into the stae of grace and salvation, absolutely without fail.
You may dismiss this lightly. You are free to do so...
sing
"And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not" Acts 28:24
Message 19
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 22:16:08 +0800
Brother Tom,
Tom: I don't see a significant different in thought between the two …….the Roman 8 passage. That is God's appointed means of saving the elect..
Concerning the order:
Here are the facts from the Confession: (I quote from the previous posts)
1689.11.1 - "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..."
1689.12.1 - "All those that are justified, God vouchsafed, in and for the sake of His only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption..."
1689.13.1 - "They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated..."
Here they are:
effectual call - justification... (do you think this is actual or declarative???)
justification - partakers of the grace of adoption...
effectual call - regeneration...
You conclude: regeneration and faith precedes justification (actual).
This conclusion implies that an elect who has NOT been imputed with the righteousness of life, i.e. unjustified, is AT THE SAME TIME regenerated!!!
If you think that is consistent, live with it.
I conclude: the effectual call out of sin and death requires justification (actual), regeneration and adoption - in that number, and logical order; chronologically, they are simultaneous at effectual calling out of sin and death to grace and salvation.
Let us just agree to disagree for now.
May our Lord give some light to the one who errs.
"And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not" Acts 28:24
Message20
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 22:16:37 +0800
Brother Tom,
Tom: I don't see a significant different in thought between the two …..the Roman 8 passage. That is God's appointed means of saving the elect.
Concerning Romans 8 passage, did you read this in the previous post. What do you think? Please consider what is written... you may pay more attention to what the text actually says.
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2. Justification, if you follow the order of the Confession and Rom. 8, /comes after/_ Effectual call. Regeneration is not mentioned in the chain of salvation because it is part and parcel of Effectual calling.
## Brother, please take careful note that the passage in Rom 8:29-30 speaks of each and every one of the elect... every divine act here applies to each and every one of those predestinated to eternal life. Please let this simple and obvious fact sink into your mind, for it will save you from much rank inconsistencies. Too many are too blind and ignorant of this obvious and simple fact... and its necessary implications.
Lesson 1 - the 'call' spoken of refers to effectual call, and not the gospel call, as so many new school Baptists imagine. The simple fact is that each and every one of the elect are effectually called to grace and salvation, and there are elect that do not have the gospel call. Please tell, which call - the Divine effectual call to grace and salvation or the gospel call to conversion - is true and applies to each and every elect of God personally? [1689's proof text confirms that the 'call' here is effectual call to grace and salvation, not gospel call to conversion].
Lesson 2 - the justification spoken of refers to that aspect of justification that is true of each and every one of those predestinated to eternal life. This certainly cannot be that declarative aspect of justification that requires faith... for there are elect who are incapable of being called out by the ministry of the word, and therefore do not exercise faith. The aspect of justification spoken of can only actual justification applied personally at effectual call to grace and salvation. Any other way, you will end up with some elect without actual justification, but to perish under the condemnation of death. If you want to have that, then I have failed in my effort to practise James 5:19.
Please tell, which justification - actual or declarative - is true and applies to each and every elect of God personally?
Brother, you are right that regeneration is not mentioned in the chain. There is a very good reason. Justification and life (regeneration) are intimately related. Justification involves the imputation of the righteousness of life... this warrants and guarantees the regeneration to eternal life... and adoption, those born are adopted into the families and have access to all the privileges of sons.
Consider just two passages where the justification, righteousness and life are so intimately and inseparably related.
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."
To be imputed personally with the righteousness of Christ is to be given eternal life... all at effectual call. I have said that effectual call to grace and salvation REQUIRES and INVOLVES justification (actual), regeneration, and adoption - in that number and logical order. That is the plain and obvious order summarised in the Confession. If you disagree, demonstrate what you believe to be the order.
sing
"And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not" Acts 28:24
