Foreword
What follows are some exchanges between students studying the related subject of effectual call and justification in its various aspects, and the biblical place of faith in Christ in relation to them. It began with a short article on James 2:24.
Message 1
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:17:14 +0800
Subject: Faith and Works justify EVIDENTIALLY
Reformed Brethren,
I have some thoughts.
Feel free to comment after you have understood what is said... keep your missiles in the bunker for a while.
Consider this biblical statement in James 2:24, "You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
I am in perfect agreement with this biblical statement. Let's consider the implication of this grand statement. This statement, in its context, is declaring at least two truths:
ONE: The works as well as the faith of a person justifies him. Scriptures say, 'NOT BY FAITH ONLY'!
TWO: The way works justify a man is the same way his faith justifies him. The same verb 'is justified' is applied in exactly the same manner to both 'works' as well as 'faith.'
The new school reformed folks will recoil, from and reject this simple truth. This only reveals the deficiency and inconsistency of their new school's view concerning justification.
Now the questions we want to ask, and consider are these:
How do a man's works justify him?
How does a man's faith justify him?
In what sense do works and faith justify a man in exactly the same manner?
Old school Baptists declared that 'Faith is not alone in the person justified.' This means among other things, that apart from the grace of faith in the person justified, there are other graces. In a man justified freely by God, you will find among other saving graces, faith and good works.
Faith justifies a man in that his faith declares, demonstrates, evidences, proves, and vindicates that he has been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, i.e. justified by God’s free grace.
Faith does not justify in that it does not secure the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Faith is not the instrumental means to secure the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Faith is not the instrumental means to secure our justification. Faith is the instrument to declare, demonstrate, evidence, prove, or vindicate that the person is a child of God, i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt with the Spirit of adoption who works those saving graces like faith, works, repentance, etc.
Even so, works of faith justify a man in that his works of righteousness declare, demonstrate, evidence, prove, vindicate that the person with works of righteousness IS already a child of God, i.e. imputed with the righteousness of life, regenerated with life, adopted, and have the Spirit of adoption dwelling within to work those graces of works and faith. The justified man has both good works and faith. Both declare his justified state by free grace.
Works do not justify in that they do not secure the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Works are not the instrumental means to SECURE the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Works are not the instrumental means to SECURE our justification. [RCC would anathematize this].
Works, like faith, are the instruments to declare, demonstrate, evidence, prove, or vindicate the justified state of a person. But in the purpose of God, it is 'faith is accounted to him for righteousness,' and not 'works is accounted to him for righteousness.' Please take careful note that 'faith is accounted to him for righteousness' IS NOT - IS NOT - IS NOT the same as 'the righteousness of Christ is accounted to him for justification.'
Accounting of your faith for righteousness and the accounting of Christ’s righteousness for justification are two totally different matters. It is a massive theological blunder to confound the two. There is SIMPLY NO ACCOUNTING OF CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS to a believer when he believes. The Scriptures state in the plainest way possible that there is an imputation of the believer's faith unto him for righteousness.
God imputing a believer's faith to the believer for righteousness is God blessing the faith to the believer to experience personally the blessedness of his righteousness as a result of the imputed righteousness of Christ
The meaning of the word 'justify' must be determined by its context. It does not always mean the divine act of declaring a guilty sinner righteous by the imputation of Christ's righteousness.
The biblical position is, "The just shall live by faith." The new school reformed position seems to be, "By faith, a condemned man shall be justified and receive life to live".]
Legal/personal justification is neither by works nor by faith. Justification is by grace through the blood of Christ, evidences not only by faith alone but also by works of faith. God justified us while we were still ungodly and were still enemies, still in rebellion against Him, incapable of believing. The common error is that God justifies (legally) us when we believe.
Experiential or evidential justification is by faith as well as good works. Abraham is the classic example. Abraham was already a justified man by grace in Gen 12-14, prior to Gen 15:1-6. All his works of righteousness prove that. His faith in Gen 15:1-6 proves, demonstrates, evidences and vindicates his justified state. 'The just shall live by faith.' By faith, he experienced personally the blessedness of his righteous standing before God in Christ. His works, before and after Gen 15:1-6, prove, demonstrates, evidences and vindicate the SAME justified state. But faith was accounted to him for righteousness. Faith secures for him the experience of the blessedness of being righteous in Christ.
Both faith and works demonstrate and evidence the justified state of a man by grace. The saving grace of faith as a result of justification is a saving grace that is never alone, i.e. always accompanied by good works.
A believer's works and faith are EFFECTS and EVIDENCE of his justified state by grace. They justify him EVIDENTIALLY.
Papists say: legal justification is by faith in Christ AND works.
New school reformed folks say: legal justification is by faith in Christ ALONE.
Scriptures say, and the old school reformed folks believed rightly: legal justification is by free grace alone through the faith OF Christ alone, and this free grace legal justification is evidenced by works and faith in Christ.
When the new school men turned the old school men's 'justification by the faith OF Christ alone' into 'justification by the faith IN Christ alone' they have perverted the gospel; they have attributed to the faith of believers what the Bible DOES NOT. They have confused and confounded the VITAL/PERSONAL justification by the faith OF Christ with the EVIDENTIAL justification by the works and faith IN Christ.
"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"?????
sing
Message 2:
Date: Mon Nov 6, 2006 5:25 am
Brother Sing,
In other words, we are justified by faith alone, but our faith is justified by works alone. Based entirely on what God has done for us in Jesus Christ, we are declared righteous by means of faith alone. But genuine faith is never alone, it is always declared genuine by a changed life.
We are declared right by faith alone, but genuine faith is declared right by works. Saint Paul puts this succinctly in Ephesians 2:8-10: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Bob [a REFORMED PRESBY man, the owner and a moderator of the Reformed discussion list.]
Message 3:
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 10:34:25 +0800
Brother Bob,
You failed to interact with what I have said in James 2:24, "You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Compare this with what you say. I get the feeling that no matter what the Scriptures say, you just say what you want to say.
You insisted, "In other words, we are justified by faith alone" EVEN THOUGH the Scriptures says, "You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." You insisted BY FAITH ALONE, even though Scriptures plainly says NOT BY FAITH ALONE. Please tell me who is right.
You insisted 'our faith is justified by works alone' EVEN THOUGH the Scriptures says that the SAME MAN is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24 plainly says that BOTH works and faith serve the SAME PURPOSE of justifying the ONE SAME man. Do you believe James 2:24 or do you don't?
You also said, 'genuine faith is declared right by works.' What does it mean for genuine faith to be declared right?
Those who framed WCF (i.e. old school men) said faith and works are graces found in a justified person, they are effects of free grace justification. Faith, the effect of free grace justification, is the instrument to MANIFEST that free grace justification; the effect of free grace justification CANNOT IN ANY WAY be the instrument to obtain justification. The effect of a cause CANNOT be the means to bring about the cause. The idea is just nonsensical.
The WCF men say faith is always ACCOMPANIED by works – Why? Because they are BOTH effects of free grace justification. BOTH of them justify EVIDENTIALLY. They don't justify forensically - 'declare right'! They are evidences of a man justified, declared right, by God's free grace while ungodly and dead in sin and in enmity against God at effectual calling.
I draw two principles from James 2:24.
ONE: The works as well as the faith of a person justifies him. Scriptures say, 'NOT BY FAITH ONLY'!
TWO: The way works justify a man is the same way his faith justifies him. The same verb 'is justified' is applied in exactly the same manner to both 'works' as well as 'faith.' They justify EVIDENTIALLY.
If you don't agree with them, please give your interpretation.
sing
Message 4:
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:20:21 +0800
Subject: ‘The word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.’
RB brethren,
I was reading and something caught my attention in Eph 1:13
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise..."
I thought I would share some thoughts which I thought are obvious and self-evident. Tell me what you think.
1. Believing and trusting in Christ come after hearing the word of truth. The word of truth declares that which is already true. The veracity of the word of truth is not dependent upon hearers believing it. Hearers are called to believe that the word of truth, i.e. that which is already true. Hearers are not called to believe something which is untrue in order that it may become true. Believing the word of truth does not make it one bit more true. Where there is no hearing there is no believing or trusting because 'faith cometh by hearing.'
2. The word of truth is the gospel of our salvation. The gospel of our salvation is the good news of what is already true. The good news of our salvation is news of what the Triune God has done to save us. The gospel of our salvation is good news that:
- God has purposed that salvation for us before the foundation of the world,
- Christ has accomplished and secured that salvation for us on the cross, and
- Holy Spirit has applied that same salvation to each one of us personally in God's appointed time. Only these are capable of being called to believe the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation. All others are dead in sin, and are remotely related to the 'word of truth' and 'the gospel of our salvation.'
Eph 1:3-12 describe these divine and gracious acts most wonderfully in their manifold richness. Without these sovereign and gracious acts of God, there would be NO word of truth; there would be NO gospel of our salvation. There would be no gospel of our salvation to be preached to us among the hearers! There would be NO word of truth to be heard and believed by us among the hearers!
3. The gospel of Jesus Christ is to be preached to all creatures. In preaching the gospel, the gospel call must be addressed to all the hearers. Among the hearers are found those whom the Spirit has regenerated, already God's children, born of His Spirit. Only such will hear and receive the gospel as the word of truth because it is already true of them. Only such will receive the gospel preached as the gospel of their salvation because salvation is already true of them... the Spirit has applied salvation to them personally. The rest will reject the gospel as foolishness. The gospel of their salvation is already a reality before it is preached to them and before they ever believe it. They are called to believe the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation because it is already true of them EVEN before they believe. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ONLY those that ARE SAVED perceive and receive the message as the gospel of their salvation, the word of truth.
4. This good news of our salvation is the word of truth... its truthfulness is based solely on what has actually and truly happened to us and in us personally by God's gracious acts... what the Triune God has done for us and in us, and NOT what we do - believing and trusting. Because what the Triune God has done for us and in us by His free and sovereign grace, there is good news of our salvation to be proclaimed to us.
The good news is NOT an offer; it is a declaration of what God has done by His free grace to save us. What God has done for us constitutes the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. Because of what God has done for us, there is the word of truth in which we are called upon to believe. Those whom God has made alive are called to believe. Salvation is bestowed by God's free grace. It is not offered to be accepted... spiritually dead sinner can possibly accept the offer, even if there is one! Through the preaching of the gospel of our salvation, God calls us, His children (justified, regenerated and adopted) to believe WHAT IS ALREADY TRUE of us, i.e. the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation.
Calling men to believe what is not true in order that it may become true is NOT only wicked and evil, but it is also deceiving the hearers. It is no longer preaching the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. It is preaching word of lies, an offer of salvation conditioned upon something the lost, condemned and dead sinner must do before God will act to save them. That's hardly any truth no good news in any sense. It is like making a great offer to a dead man, "if you would just whisper 'yes, I believe' then I will make you alive." That amounts to a most wicked mockery at the dead man. It is no word of truth or good news in any sense.
Calling men to believe the word of truth in order that God's gracious work of saving His elect by His free grace may be made manifest SO THAT His children may be gathered in NT churches is the true function of the ministry of preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Great Commission is to make disciples of God's regenerated elect; disciples can only be made out of God's children. The Triune God produces His own children without any human aid whatsoever. He does so sovereignly and freely by His grace. And He appointed the preaching of the gospel to gather His children into NT churches.
5. We who trusted Christ after hearing the word of truth do so ONLY because Christ is been our Saviour, the word of truth is been true of us. We are believing what is already true. Our believing does not make what is untrue to become true. Faith, receiving and resting in Christ for righteousness and salvation, is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and an evidence of the Spirit of Christ already dwelling in them that exercise faith. The indwelling Spirit of God is found in those God has already justified, regenerated and adopted... for the Spirit of God is called the Spirit of adoption.
6. "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2Tim 1:10
The gospel brings life and immortality TO LIGHT.
The gospel DOES NOT bring life and immortality.
The gospel is the means God ordained to bring to light life and immortality.
The gospel is NOT THE MEANS God ordained to bring life and immortality.
You can only bring to light the life and immortality that are ALREADY there.
Life and immortality are ALREADY in the person by God's free and sovereign grace BEFORE they can ever be brought to light by the gospel. Biblical examples bear witness to this - Abraham, the Jews converted on the day of Pentecost, the eunuch, Cornelius, Lydia,
It's time to believe the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation.
Now I have a QUESTION: "in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit
of promise..." What is this sealing with that holy Spirit of promise?
Please give these thoughts some consideration.
We need to rethink through the doctrine of salvation.
What the 'reformed' people believe is quite different from what the Old School Baptists of the 17th and 18th century particular baptists believed (same with the paedobaptist side of the story.)
sing
Message 5:
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 11:17:01 +0800
Chuck wrote to a church member
“I understand Pastor Lau's position and his reasoning. Pastor Lau's conviction is that if God saves sinners by grace, then faith is not necessary for salvation. But other pastors (including me) believe that God saves sinners by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus. As a general rule, only those who believe in Jesus are saved. It is not my intention to discuss this matter again. So much time has been spent on this subject already. We are all accountable to God. So, let each one be persuaded in his own mind.”
chuck
Message 6
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 15:37:44 +0800
Brother Chuck,
Don't worry, I would just take 2 minute of your time.
Faith is NECESSARY... but necessary for what? To obtain salvation, or to manifest the presence of eternal salvation already bestowed by God's free grace? Breath is necessary, but necessary for what? Is it to obtain life or to manifest the presence of life already possessed?
Go think about it, and do make sure you give your Father of your eternal salvation the honour due to Him.
I say faith in Jesus Christ is necessary to EVIDENCE one's salvation by God's free grace. So, ALL hearers are called to believe. But ONLY a person whom God has GIVEN ETERNAL salvation - i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted - has the ability to believe; and believing he gives evidence of his salvation by God's free grace. That way, salvation by free grace is consistent.
If you believe that an UN-SAVED man - i.e. a condemned (unjustified), dead in sin (unregenerated) and an alien slave of sin (un-adopted) - is able to believe IN ORDER to be saved, i.e. in order to be justified, regenerated and adopted, THEN faith is INDEED unnecessary. The simple fact is that faith in such a situation is AN IMPOSSIBILITY, forget about its necessity. The impossibility negates the necessity!
Scripture plainly says, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18.
Biblically, a sinner dead in sin is ALWAYS and ONLY saved by God's free gracious acts of justification, regeneration and adoption. Some of these are outwardly called and brought to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ through the gospel preaching. Others are incapable of being called and brought to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Biblically, it is ALWAYS and ONLY those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who does GIVE EVIDENCE that they are saved by God's free grace. So, faith is very necessary, it EVIDENCES the salvation ALREADY freely bestowed but it is not a necessary condition of salvation in any way.
You mention a general rule. Does it imply that there is an exceptional rule??? If it does, what's the exceptional rule?
It is important to know exactly where we do presently disagree.
If you believe an UNSAVED man can exercise faith in order to be SAVED, if your mind is persuaded with such inconsistencies and contradictions... then may God deliver His children from such terrible LIES and open denial of salvation by God's free grace.
The eternal salvation by God's free grace which enables a man to believe and obey in order to be saved "from this perverse generation' are very different and distinct aspects of salvation. The former is eternal and unconditional; the latter is temporal (pertaining to this life only) and conditional...
2 minutes is up. Thanks for your patience.
May our Lord bless you to know the 'word of truth, the gospel of your salvation' Eph 1:13.
sing
Message 7:
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:31:36 +0800
Pastor Lau,
Thanks for that. From the statement of the confession: [1689.11.1]
“Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.”
This is what I understand it to say:
1) It is God who justifies the elect
2) He does that by pardoning their sins, accepting them as righteous
3) He accepts them as righteous not by anything done in them or done by them
4) He accepts them as righteous not by imputing faith (act of believing), or any other evangelical obedience
5) He accepts them as righteous by imputing Christ's active obedience (to the law) and passive obedience in His death
6) The imputation of righteousness is "by faith", which is a gift of God.
"Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love." [1689.11.2]
7) This faith acts by receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness
8) This faith, by receiving and resting on Christ, is the sole instrument of justification.
9) However, in the person justified, faith is not now present alone, but is accompanied by other saving graces (doesn't this also assumes regeneration has already taken place.)
Assuming you are in agreement with #1-5, how do you understand the 'by faith' in the first paragraph?
How do you understand para 2 where faith is described as being the 'instrument' of justification?
Tom
Message 8
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:51:31 +0800
Brother Tom
Glad that you are interested to consider the Confession, which I take as a faithful summary of the Bible's teachings. It has much to teach us what the old-school Baptists did believe, and where the new-school Baptists (Fullerites) have gone wrong.
You have made some good observations and asked some good questions. I will try to interact with your observations and make some comments, marked ##. (Some uppercases are for emphasis, not shouting!)
Please take time to read... and feel free to ask further...
From the statement of the Confession [1689.11.1], please note the words in red.
"Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness; [they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness] by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.” [1689.11.1]
Tom == This is what I understand it to say: 1) It is God who justifies the elect.==
This is a faithful statement, and an excellent place to start too.
It is God who justifies... i.e. God the Judge has the sole prerogative to declare a guilty condemned sinner not guilty but righteous. He does this entirely by His sovereign and free grace, based solely on the merits of Christ's righteousness, not conditioned upon anything wrought in them, or done by them.'
The good statement begs a question: WHEN does God justify the elect?
Put it in another way - in what spiritual state are the elect when God justify them?
Scriptures say, God justifies the ungodly; new school Baptists insist God justifies the believing. Scriptures do say that faith and works justify, not forensically as God justifies, but evidentially, demonstrating that they are indeed God's children, i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted of God.
Note these plain words, 'Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth...'
Consider the relationship between the two.
Please remember that effectual call is that divine calling of the elect "out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ."
New school Baptists think of the effectual call as the gospel call blessed by the Spirit to bring conversion. That's a most serious error. The effectual call is the divine call, therefore always accomplishing its end, that brings the elect 'out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ."
And please remember that effectual call is not - not - not regeneration (see 13.1 where the two are clearly distinguished). Effectual calling "out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ" requires far more than regeneration. It requires justification to remove the just condemnation and the bestowal of the righteousness of life by the Father. Justification gives divine warrant for the Spirit's work of regeneration. Them whom the Spirit regenerates, the Father adopts and receives into the divine family.
What do the words, "Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth..." indicate about the relationship between the effectual calling and the justification of the elect? I suggest that in the mind of the Framers, effectual call and justification occur simultaneously... 13.1 indicates that effectual call and regeneration happen simultaneously too.
The spiritual state in which the elect are effectually called is the SAME STATE in which the elect are justified. The spiritual state in which the elect are effectually called is the SAME STATE in which the elect are regenerated. And the regenerated are adopted as sons.
The Confession bears out these truths in plain unmistakable statements.
10.1 "Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call... out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ." [This is 'definitive sanctification.]
11.1 “Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth...”
12.1 “All those that are justified, God vouchsafed, in and for the sake of His only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption, by which they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privileges of children of God..."
(One is made a partaker of the grace of adoption through regeneration. Justification PRECEDES both regeneration and adoption - isn't this plain enough from the words of the Confession?)
13.1 "They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified, really and personally..." (Note the distinction between effectual call and regeneration. They are NOT the same.)
The PLAIN ORDER, if anyone wants to know what the 1689 say is simply this:
10.1 says about the effectual call;
11.1 says about justification in the effectual call;
12.1 says about the grace of adoption; and
13.1 says about regeneration in the effectual call...
Justification PRECEDES regeneration, and regeneration precedes adoption... in that logical order. The effectual call "out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ" requires these acts of God (simultaneously but in that logical order):
Justification to remove the condemnation...
Regeneration to remove the spiritual deadness...
Adoption to access to all the privileges...
ONLY when these gracious and free and sovereign acts of God HAVE TAKEN PLACE, is an elect able to exercise faith. If you disagree, please say so. Only those that ARE SAVED are enabled to believe. The gospel ministry is to call such to faith in what is ALREADY true, 'the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.'
THINK ABOUT THESE STATEMENTS very carefully - these truths deserve your careful attention and believing.
The simple fact is, only an effectually called person - i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted - has the ability to believe. Put it in other words, only one who is already DEFINITIVELY SANCTIFIED by the effectual call (i.e. once-for-all separated from sin and death to grace and salvation) can be FARTHER SANCTIFIED by Christ's Word and Spirit dwelling in them (i.e. a life-long process of separation from ignorance and falsehood to knowledge and truth both in doctrines and practice.) That's what Chapter 13 is about. Chapter 14 takes up the grace of faith as the chief means by which God's children are further sanctified. Just take your time to read 1689.10-14 slowly and notice the flow of careful and tight logic upholding the truth of the Scriptures.
Tom == 2) He does that by pardoning their sins, accepting them as righteous.
## That's a faithful statement: "... by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous."
The question is: what is the spiritual state of the elect when God pardon their sins, and accepts them as righteous: when they are in a state of sin and death, or when are they in a state of grace and salvation - that is, when they believe?
The elect is either in the state of sin and death or in the state of grace and salvation. Only when they are effectually called out of the former and into the latter that they are able to exercise the grace of faith. There is no middle ground - that's obvious enough.
If you disagree with my simple conclusion, please kindly indicate.
Tom == 3) He accepts them as righteous, not by anything done in them or done by them
## This is a faithful and true statement - "... not for anything wrought in them, or done by them."
The Framers say 'faith' is wrought in them - "The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts..." 1689.14.1 In this sense, 'faith' is a gift of God because it is a saving grace worked by the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them. Faith is NOT a gift in the sense that salvation (Eph 2:8), eternal life (Rm 6:23), righteousness (Rm 5:17) and justification of life (Rm 5;16,18) are spoken of as gift - something coming to us from ABOVE and WITHOUT, James 1:17.
I think you would agree that believing is a spiritual act done by them. You would also want to agree that spiritual life MUST PRECEDES any spiritual activities. (The term 'spiritual life' is not found in the Bible... but of course, eternal life is spiritual in nature). If you disagree, please state so, and say why.
Some new school Baptists, e.g. Pastor Ho, define regeneration as giving spiritual ability, and this spiritual ability must be exercised to believe, and in believing one is given eternal life. So, he agrees that 'regeneration' must precedes faith, but his definition of regeneration is a plain and open perversion of the biblical regeneration. Some standard reformed people can speak of spiritual ability apart from spiritual life!
I conclude that justification before God - to be declared by Him as righteous, and not guilty - cannot possibly be by the instrumental means of faith in Christ. It is explicitly and plainly repudiated by the Confession.
Tom == 4) He accepts them as righteous not by imputing faith (act of believing), or any other evangelical obedience.
## This is a good statement. The Framers explicitly warn against a very common error embraced by so many new school Baptists (same with the paedobaptists) - grievously mistaking the imputation of faith as having anything to do with forensic justification by God.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's believing] was counted [imputed] unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted [imputed] for righteousness.
Gen 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
There is NO - NO - NO forensic (Actual) justification here in Gen 15:1-6. There is NO - NO - NO imputation of Christ's righteousness involved here... There is the imputation of the believer's faith, and the Confession plainly warns against the common error of mistaking the imputation of faith as involving justification.
Abraham was justified by God while UNGODLY in Ur. His believing in Gen 15 vindicates the glorious truth, 'the just shall live by faith.' Abraham's faith DEMONSTRATES and GIVES EVIDENCE of his just state by the grace of God when an ungodly idolatrous man in Ur. Gen 12-14 gives us a picture of a justified man by God's free grace.
Faith and evangelical obedience VINDICATE and CERTIFY their justified state by God's free grace.
His faith is accounted to him for righteousness means through his faith he was blessed to experience the blessedness of his justified state. The Scriptures say, 'whoever believes HAS eternal life.' Whoever believes experiences the blessedness of having eternal life.
Tom == 5) He accepts them as righteous by imputing Christ's active obedience (to the law) and passive obedience in His death
## This is a faithful statement. His active obedience secures the righteousness of life needed, and his passive obedience atones for the sins and bore away the just condemnation.
The Scriptures speak of the faith OF - OF - OF Christ. The old-school Baptist who knew the KJT speaks of the faith of Christ - His believing and obeying the will of the Father for Him as the Redeemer of His people.
By the faith OF Christ, the elect is justified before God.
By the believer's faith IN Christ, they demonstrate and give evidence that they are God's children - i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted.
Tom == 6) The imputation of righteousness is _by faith_, which is a gift of God.
## Please check your quotation of the paragraph carefully and see whether you have missed some important words. Otherwise, you would never come up with such a popular and misunderstood notion from the Confession. This statement - if you can find it from 1689.11.1 - plainly contradicts the other statements in the paragraph.
Mine have these words at the end, "... righteousness; [semicolon] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, .." Please note the SEMI-COLON after the righteousness - the semicolon distinctly SEPARATE the imputation clause from the receiving and resting clause which follows. I will deal with the significance of this phrase later.
If imputation of righteousness is by faith - conditioned upon the instrumentality of faith, then;
- The statement 'he also freely justifieth' is contradicted and repudiated. If imputation is by faith, then justification is conditioned upon faith. It is no longer 'freely' by God's grace.
- The statement 'not for anything wrought in them, or done by them' is also contradicted and repudiated. Faith is a grace wrought in them; believing is the grace of faith exercised, something done by them.
The imputation of righteousness is NOT - NOT - NOT by faith! It is NOT in the Confession. It is the imagination of the new school Baptists. The imputation of righteousness is FREELY by God's grace. See Pruning pp. 172-4 on what William Kiffin, signer of both the First (1644) and Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) say on the role and function of faith.
The Confession does say, "they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith." God justifies FREELY by His grace, and His children receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness by faith are TWO very distinct and different actions. The former is God's action upon the ungodly justly condemned sinners dead in sin; the latter are acts of God's children in obedience to the gospel call.
God's free grace justification (necessarily accompanied by regeneration and adoption at effectual call to grace and salvation) enables the elect to exercise faith to receive and rest on Christ and His righteousness through the ministry of the gospel. There are sentient elect who are incapable of being outwardly called...
I have used this illustration often in SDC. Towkay, by his free grace, credited a a million dollar into a coolie's account. Towkay sends his messenger to tell the coolie the good news (what ALREADY happened). Coolie believes and goes to the bank to receive the money. The crediting is done before the news came... the crediting produces the good news... the crediting is not conditioned on the coolie go to the bank.
“Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.” [1689.11.2]
Tom == 7) This faith acts by receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness
## Justification by God's free grace is based solely upon Christ and His righteousness... "Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth... for Christ's sake alone... by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness."
That being the truth, faith in Christ, i.e. receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness is understandably the sure and certain evidence and proof of one's justification by God's free grace.
Remember a MOST basic truth... ONLY the justified, regenerated and adopted elect is capable of exercising faith, of receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness. He is already in Christ and clothed with Christ's righteousness by grace... that is why he is able to receive and rest in Christ.
Tom == 8) This faith, by receiving and resting on Christ, is the sole instrument of justification.
## An instrument serves a function or purpose. A telescope is an astronomical instrument. A volt-meter is an electrical instrument. A stethoscope is a medical instrument. What is the relationship between these instruments and their purpose? Are they not to make manifest the presence of those things they were designed and purposed to do? The telescope discovers and make manifests those celestial objects that are already present there. A volt-meter detects the presence of voltage already in the circuit, it is not an instrument to bring voltage to the circuit. A stethoscope is not an instrument to bring heartbeats to a patient, the heart must be beating for the stethoscope to detect any heartbeats.
Faith, receiving and resting in Christ, is the sole instrument to manifest and disclose the justified state of a person. Works cannot be the sole instrument... first, works are not the ground and basis of justification before God, second, works are shown by those who reject Christ.
But saving faith is always accompanied by all other saving grace. The effectual call out of sin and death to grace and salvation equips a child of God with all the graces of salvation, NOT just faith. The gospel ministry is ordained to cultivate and brings these graces out in the lives of God's children. Faith that is alone, not accompanied by other saving graces is a suspect faith at best, and the faith of the devil at worst. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT just work faith in the person indwelt by Him... He works all the saving graces... "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..."
Tom == 9) However, in the person justified, faith is not now present alone, but is accompanied by other saving graces (doesn't this also assumes regeneration has already taken place.)
## Faith and all other graces are only to be found in a justified person - simple grammar tells us that justification precedes faith. It is like saying, breath and other activities of life are found in a resuscitated person.
Only in the person justified is faith found. A justified person is a regenerated and adopted person, with the Spirit of God dwelling in him. Only a regenerated person can exercise faith. A regenerated person is one born with eternal life and indwelt by the Spirit of God. A living person evidences his life in so many ways. Even so, a regenerated person manifests his life through his faith accompanied by all other saving graces. Faith is accompanied by all other saving graces - i.e. graces produced by the effectual calling to grace and salvation.
Tom == Assuming you are in agreement with #1-5, how do you understand the 'by faith' in the first paragraph? How do you understand para 2 where faith is described as being the 'instrument' of justification?
##Reception of the righteousness already imputed is by faith. Abraham was imputed with righteousness when he was an ungodly man in Ur. Abraham experiences the blessedness of his righteous state by faith in Gen 15:1-6.
Imputation of righteousness is NEVER by faith; it is by God's free grace.
Imputation of righteousness is a once-for-all legal act by God.
Receiving and resting in Christ is a life-long experience by faith in Christ.
If there is anything not clear, please feel free to ask further. I have not lost all hope that you might come to see the plain old truth and be instrumental to save my RB brethren from their grievous errors, James 5:19.
I also learn as I interact with you. Thanks for the opportunity. Please fell free to forward to others in your church to read the exchanges.
sing
Message 9:
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:38:22 +0800
Pastor Lau,
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I have some agreement with most of what is said, a few I'm still grappling with. Some further questions:
1) Maybe I read your reply too quickly, but I still don't have an idea on where you place Effectual call in relation to Justification.
2) If justification has to precede regeneration (I'm still not convinced that this is the correct order but then who knows?), and justification has occurred at the cross, surely the OT saints were regenerated before justification?
3) If you are saying that the elect is justified at the cross, then are you also saying that the state of condemnation of all the elect is lifted at the cross.
The Puritans wrote about Virtual, Actual and Declarative Justification.
The first is at the cross, the second by faith and the third by faith and works. (I think I have represented that somewhat correctly!!). I find that to be a helpful way of understanding the whole doctrine of justification.
tom
Message 10
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 00:19:45 +0800
Brother Tom,
My comments in your post indicated by ##
Tom == Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I have some agreement with most of what is said, a few I'm still grappling with. Some further questions:
## I have said nothing new in my reply. I am mostly repeating what has been expressed before. We will work together to grapple with, and hopefully resolve the few that remain.
Tom == 1) Maybe I read your reply too quickly, but I still don't have an idea on where you place Effectual call in relation to Justification.
## I am glad you ask. I am a poor communicator. Read less quickly and I may make more sense to you.
The effectual call is that divine calling "out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ." Calling an elect out of the state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation requires justification, regeneration and adoption - in that logical order and number.
That's the teaching summarised by the Confession, and I do agree with it. If you don't agree, show me what it does say.
Effectual calling involves the justification, regeneration and adoption of an elect - they are that which are necessarily involved in calling an elect "out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ."
Justification and regeneration and adoption are divine acts subsumed under the theological term of effectual calling to grace and salvation. Think of ONE medical surgery that requires SEVERAL distinct and logical procedures.
Tom == 2) If justification has to precede regeneration (I'm still not convinced that this is the correct order! but then who knows?), and justification has occurred at the cross, surely the OT saints were regenerated before justification?
## There are several issues here.
a. Your 'if... ' and 'surely...' logic betrays an obvious confusion and deficient understanding. Let's look at your argument. You said: == “If justification has to precede regeneration (I'm still not convinced that this is the correct order! but then who knows?), and justification has occurred at the cross, surely the OT saints were regenerated before justification?”==
You are equating and confusing justification applied to individual elect personally [puritan's 'Vital'] at the effectual call with the justification accomplished for all the elect legally [puritan's 'Virtual'] by Christ at the cross. So, the 'difficulty' is the result of the confusion and failure to recognize the different aspects of justification. I am saying with the Confession that justification applied at effectual call logically precedes the regeneration at effectual call - and this logical order is true of each elect at any time in the redemptive history of the elect, i.e. whether in the OT or NT, see 1689.11.6.
I am saying with you that the experiential justification by faith in Christ and evidential justification by works and faith in Christ FOLLOW regeneration. We are adequately agreed here. Without regeneration, there can be no believing to be imputed to us for our experiential [puritan's 'Declarative'] justification. Isn't this SO SIMPLE???
The justification that occurred at the cross is legal [virtual] justification of ALL the elect. (EVEN So the legal condemnation imputed to all represented by Adam at the Fall.
The justification that occurs at effectual calling is legal justification applied to each individual elect personally, thus what was legal become 'Vital.'
The justification that occurs at conversion is Vital justification EXPERIENCED by faith in Christ and evidenced by works and faith in Christ.
It is said of all the elect: "The just (a verbal noun meaning 'the justified ones by the grace of God') shall live by faith" - all those that believe do so because they are JUSTIFIED ONES... and God alone does that when they were UNGODLY, and when enemies.
b. Chronologically, justification and regeneration and adoption happen simultaneously at the effectual calling of EVERY elect to grace and salvation.
- This is quite obvious from the Confession. Effectual call from sin and death to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ MUST REQUIRE justification and regeneration and adoption.
c. Logically, justification precedes regeneration, and regeneration precedes adoption. Common sense, simple logic and theology require such logical order. This order is as plain as noonday sun from the Confession for anyone who can read and whose mind is not prejudiced. Words do have meaning, and the framers were logicians as well as theologians. Whether you are convinced or not is another matter.
I do sincerely hope that you are willing to learn and grow in grace and knowledge here. I will make some extra effort... So kindly reciprocate and please read carefully and with patience.
d. There are various aspects or facets of justification plainly spoken of in the Scriptures. The Confession affirms this simple, but wholly neglected and despised fact, despised because it debunks erroneous soteriology.
Three years ago, at the beginning of my short-lived discussion with the RB pastors and leaders, I said, "There are more streets than one in the Justification Town." Shortly after I was hastily declared to be in 'serious and fundamental error' by the local 'standard' RB men. I was merely calling their attention to look at 1689.11.4. Nobody cares to even consider it!!!
First, let me quote 1689.11.4 for your consideration and study:
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them."
Note the 3 distinct aspects of justification specifically mentioned above. Faith in Christ enters into the picture ONLY AFTER the Holy Spirit has in due time ACTUALLY apply Christ unto them... i.e. at effectual call, of course.
First, God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect: there is the DECRETAL aspect: God did decree to justify ALL the elect before time. All the elect are justified decretively before time. They were actually justified decretively before time began. Rom 8:29-30. What was decreed before time took place in time.
Second, Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: there is the LEGAL aspect: Christ did justify ALL the elect by his death and resurrection. Christ's righteousness is legally imputed to all God's elect. All the elect are justified in the legal sense. This is a ONCE-FOR-ALL gracious act of imputing the righteousness of Christ to His ALL His elect. This cannot be, and has no need of being, repeated. Rom 5:12-21. (EVEN SO, was the condemnation of the whole of mankind in Adam through his act of rebellion).
By Christ's life and death, ALL the elect are LEGALLY justified, but they are not PERSONALLY justified "until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them" at effectual calling. At effectual calling to grace and salvation, Christ is personally applied to each elect; in the OT, based prospectively on what Christ will do; and in the NT, based retrospectively on what Christ has done. Read 1689.11.6.
Third, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them: there is the Personal aspect: the Holy Spirit APPLIES the righteousness of Christ to each INDIVIDUAL elect personally at God's appointed and approve time, i.e. at the effectual call to grace and salvation. The personal aspect is applied to ALL the elect, to each one when 'ungodly,' 'without strength,' 'dead in sin,' 'a child of wrath,' when in the state of sin and death, etc. When Christ's righteousness is applied to an elect personally - by free grace alone - the condemnation of death is removed and righteousness of life applied personally, on that basis, the Holy Spirit regenerates the justified elect individual. No justification applied, no regeneration! The Spirit of God works in harmony with God the Father: His Spirit regenerates ONLY those whom He has justified personally by the righteousness of Christ.
When God has FREELY and SOVEREIGNLY done the above, i.e. when Christ has been APPLIED to an elect personally at the effectual call to grace and salvation, that elect is enabled to believe in Christ through the preaching of the gospel. The time lapse between the effectual call and conversion at the gospel call varies widely. Conversion through the gospel preaching does not even take place for some of the sentient elect - read 1689.10.3. Are you shocked by this statement?
The actual application of Christ's righteousness to each elect personally - whether in the OT or the NT - is based solely and wholly upon the righteousness of Christ at the cross; For the OT saints, the righteousness of Christ was applied to them based on what Christ would accomplish. For the NT saints, the righteousness of Christ is applied to them based on what Christ has accomplished.
1689.11.6 states this plain truth: "The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament."
However, whether before or after the cross, justification APPLIED always precede regeneration. Removal of the condemnation of death on the elect personally and the giving of the righteousness of life to him personally by God (justification applied) MUST logically precede the giving of eternal life by the Holy Spirit (regeneration).
This leads us to the next aspect:
- The Experiential aspect: This is what we read in Gen 15, in Cornelius, in those converted on the day of Pentecost, in the eunuch, Lydia. Through the preaching of the gospel, God blessed the faith of a believer in the promised Seed, worked in them by the indwelling Spirit, to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace. 'His faith is accounted to him for righteousness.'
God justifies the UNGODLY - the righteousness of Christ applied personally.
Faith justifies the BELIEVERS - the imputed and applied righteousness experienced personally.
What God declares about the UNGODLY CONDEMNED SINNER is very different from what faith declares about a believer. The former is forensic, and the latter is experiential.
Not all the elect of God enjoy experiential justification through the ministry of the word. Some are not reached with the gospel. Others are incapable of being reached with the gospel. The new school Baptist soteriology has no place for such... contrary to 1689.10.3.
Experiential and evidential justification FOLLOW regeneration. New school Baptists take this as the ONE and ONLY street in Justification Town, and worse still mistake these two streets as the Forensic Avenue.
- The FINAL aspect: God shall vindicate EVERY AND EACH of the elect He has decreed to justify and Christ has died for their legal justification and whom the Spirit has applied the same for their vital and personal justification. "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." The GRAND BASIS of this final VINDICATION is : inherit the kingdom prepared for you from before the foundation of the world; GRACE - GRACE - GRACE.
Let's apply all these to Abraham:
Abraham lived before Christ has executed and accomplished redemption. So Christ's righteousness was applied TO HIM PERSONALLY by God based on the redemptive work that Christ would accomplish. God has faith in His Son doing so.
Christ's righteousness was APPLIED to Abraham personally when he was an ungodly idolatrous man in Ur, dead in trespasses and sin, without strength, etc., etc., This happened when God, by His free and sovereign grace, called Abraham out of his state of sin and death to grace and eternal salvation. Because of that free and gracious and sovereign act of God, Abraham was a changed man; his works of obedience in Gen 12-14 are the CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE of his justified state.
The full and complete righteousness of Christ was applied to Abraham personally, once-for-all, unrepeatable, and cannot be improved upon. With the righteousness of Christ applied personally, Abraham is clothed with the righteousness of Christ and stands COMPLETELY and ETERNALLY righteous before God.
Gen 15 records the INITIAL EXPERIENCE of Abraham concerning his justified state before God by His free grace and mercy. He has never experienced the blessedness of his justified state before the event recorded in Gen 15:1-6. It was at this event that it is recorded that his faith was accounted to him. Never before in Gen 12-14 do we read that his faith was accounted to him personally to EXPERIENCE the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace through the righteousness of Christ applied to him when he was still an ungodly man in Ur.
This EXPERIENTIAL aspect is repeatable and ongoing throughout life. It begins with INITIAL faith in the promised Seed, even the blessed Lord Jesus Christ. Ongoing faith in Christ Jesus is accounted to us to experience ongoingly this blessedness of our justified state by God's free grace through the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Our LEGAL justification - both secured at the cross and applied to us at effectual calling - is OBVIOUSLY by God's grace alone through Christ's righteousness alone... and NOT - NOT - NOT by our faith in Christ alone. Until the justification is applied to us personally, we were under the condemnation of death, dead in sin, and an alien.
It is our EXPERIENTIAL justification that is by our faith in Christ alone... VERY SIMPLY because it is faith in Christ alone, and never our works, that is accounted to us to experience personally the blessedness of our justified state by God's free and sovereign grace.
> 3) If you are saying that the elect is justified at the cross, then are you also saying that the state of condemnation of all the elect is lifted at the cross.
Again your 'if.. then...' logic betrays confusion and failure to distinguish the different aspects of justification.
Legal Justification of all the elect took place at the cross: that is the ONLY time when double imputation actually took place: all the sins of all the elect were imputed to Christ at the cross, and the righteousness of Christ was imputed to all the elect. This is purely a legal transaction. What is legally transacted is applied to each elect personally at God's appointed and approved time.
Yes, I am saying that LEGALLY, that condemnation that came upon ALL the elect because of Adam's transgression is lifted at the cross. But UNTIL the righteousness of Christ - that lifted that legal condemnation and secured legal justification - is applied PERSONALLY at the effectual call of each elect at God's appointed and approved time, the elect is still dead in sin, a child of wrath, in enmity against God, etc...
Legal justification is applied to each elect personally at effectual calling out of sin and death to grace and salvation. Only when the legal justification has been applied personally, an elect is able to exercise faith, i.e. to receive and rest in Christ through the gospel call... thus experiences justification.
Tom: The puritans wrote about Virtual, Actual and Declarative Justification. The first is at the cross, the second by faith and the third by faith and works. (I think I have represented that somewhat correctly!!). I find that to be a helpful way of understanding the whole doctrine of justification.
You are nearer to the truth now that you have recognized and acknowledged the various aspects of justification. However, I doubt you have represented them correctly. If you have understood them, you would not have those difficulties expressed in your 'if... then...' type of logic in your rhetorical questions.
Whatever terms people use, let them define the term they use. Different terms by different people may actually be stating the same truths and principles. [Similarly, the same terms by different people may be used to denote different things.]
The legal aspect is at the cross - by the faith OF Christ alone, all the elect are LEGALLY justified, double imputation having taken place at the cross. May be this is virtual...
The applied/personal aspect is at the effectual call - by grace alone, freely. What is legal is now applied to each elect personally - obviously by God's free alone. In applying Christ's righteousness to an elect personally, God declares an elect PERSONALLY righteous. Maybe this is Actual (Vital/Personal), the person is not just legally, but Vitally (Personally) justified. [But this took place when an elect is in the state of sin and death – incapable of believing.]
The experiential/practical aspect is at conversion - by faith IN Christ alone. Faith in Christ is Declarative of the justified state of an elect by free grace. Faith in Christ is always accompanied by all other saving graces. Works and faith declare evidentially, i.e. works and faith justify evidentially that the person is indeed a true child of God.
Thank you for your interest and patience. Some things need repetitions, so please pardon.
sing
"And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not" Acts 28:24
