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| A Reformed Baptist Professor of Theology said of John 3:16 "I also believe that eternal life comes NOT JUST after regeneration but with the whole process of regeneration, repentance and faith---all produced by the grace and power of God.... So if anyone asks, you can tell them that we do not agree on the matter, and that I believe the statements there are conditional." |
Here are some exchanges between Dr… ( a theologian and professor)
Feel free to give your comment. I put a few notes in [...] for clarification.
I genuinely believe we have to REthink through some of the issues and be consistent.
sing
----- post 1
Dear brethren,
Someone who is proficient in Greek, could you please parse the various verbs used in John 3:16.
I am also wondering, is John 3:16 a declarative statement about salvation, or an offer or invitation for salvation?
desiring to learn,
sing
----- post 2
Dear Sing,
Sorry for the delay in answering your e-mail and the questions which have been raised. I think there has arisen some confusion concerning the discussion of John 3:16. I don't remember the discussion and I cannot raise the e-mails under question, but with some humor I suggest that it sounds like I may not have heard what you meant even though I thought I understood what you said. So let me spell out what I believe concerning John 3:16.
The whole key to understanding this verse seems to be the particles (the connectors), which in the Greek include outw, wste and hina (sorry my e-mail does not write Greek. so I give you the transliteration). Also important is the consideration of some of the verbs in their tense and moods. I realize you may not now know Greek (maybe you do), but let me give you my expanded translation of that verse with some explanations in parenthesis.
"For (gar---explanatory) in this manner (outw) God loved the world---in the manner whereby He gave His only begotten Son, with the result that whosoever believes (present participle---action is in the present time frame) in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.
But now a few words of further explanation:
1. Christ's coming into the world was not a separate event of history disconnected from divine motivation, but must always and forever be linked with God's love for the world (Jew and Gentile alike).
2. The manner whereby God's love is expressed is through the fact that at a point of time in history He gave his only begotten Son (this phrase could even be taken in apposition to the first clause of 3:16). That would mean that the giving of His Son and His loving the world in a certain manner are equal.
3. The last clause is a resultant clause which could express one of the following ideas:
a. A RESULT which is stated by futures (taking the subjunctive verbs to be used in that manner). Which means it is expressing the result of believing (present participle---the one who is believing). This one who is believing or believes on/in Christ shall not perish but have everlasting life (the two results of believing stated negatively and positively---shall not perish but shall have everlasting life).
b. Or this could express a potential idea which puts the full force on the potential of man's faith, but does not necessarily take away God's sovereignty in the matter of man's faith.
I would prefer a. to b. --- taking the subjunctives to be futures. But at the same time, if one did take the b. rendering, they are not necessarily giving an inch to the Arminians --- that is to the idea that this crowns man's will in the matter of salvation, which in turn would scrap God's sovereignty. It could very well be one of those times in Scripture where the other side of the tension between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility is stressed.
I would strongly disagree with the accusation that a Calvinist has sold out sovereignty, if he sees human responsibility strongly expressed in a Scripture passage. I fear that some men might have fostered this idea already in their minds and teaching. When we preach a sovereignty text, when it is there, we must preach it in its fullness. When we preach a text that emphasizes man's responsibility to believe in the gospel, we preach it in its fullness, even if some of our Calvinistic brethren would call us an Arminian for doing so. If they would only realize it, they are accusing not only us, but some of the greatest of the Calvinistic preachers of error, such as none other than Spurgeon himself. I am amazed sometimes at his boldness to express both sides of the tension between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility to believe the gospel. But I am also convinced that he is correct! This may perhaps be true of the John 3:16 passage.
Remember that there are many tensions in our theology between two seemingly different sides of a doctrine---
Our God is one God---our God is a Trinitarian God---we must keep the balance!!
Jesus is fully God---Jesus is fully man---we must keep the balance!!!
God is sovereign---man is responsible---we must keep the balance!!!
This is what is called maintaining the tension between the two sides of a theological issue which our puny minds are incapable of understanding. Great mistakes are made when we overbalance to one side of the tension and deny the reality and truth of the other side. And worst of all, such a mistake may be a doctrinal heresy.
I don't know if this helps or not. If I have only muddied the water, or if there are other aspects of the passage which I have not touched where you want an explanation from me, let me know.
God's blessings, and hoping to see you this summer.
Prayerfully,
Dr.
----- post 3
Dear Dr.
Thanks for your reply. I hope you have had a blessed ministry. May the Lord confirm the labours of our hands.
Please, if you find time, make some comments to the posts by Mark and Toby (I have pasted together in another separate mail!). [not included here] I remember reading those mails, and asking you the same question for a second opinion, and received a brief and to-the-point answer.
Does John 3:16 teach that
eternal life is obtained by believing (conditional) OR,
eternal life is evidenced by believing (declarative)?
After all your explanation, would you consider John 3:16 a declarative statement about salvation, or a proposal or invitation for salvation?
sing
----- post 4
Dear Sing,
I trust our discussion is just between us. I do not want my thoughts on this out in the public domain, unless you get permission to send what I say to others.
Agreed?
Okay, then let me make a few remarks on the whole of the discussion.
The Greek language is quite expressive and varying in its possibilities.
I say this not to say it is of no help to us, but to alert you to the fact that some people seem to think that the Greek solves all the problems of study, if you can find some grammar book that agrees with what you want it to say. But it is not quite that easy.
There are various usages of the participle, of the conjunctions, of the tenses of the verbs, etc. How one takes them determines what the verse says. Let me take my initial translation and make some comments with some of the items others have said in the discussion they sent.
Remember the entire translation with a few points of explanation I sent:
"For (GR---gar---explanatory) in this manner (GR---outw) loved the world---in the manner whereby He gave His only begotten Son, with the result that whosoever believes (GR---present participle---action in the present time frame) in Him, will (may) not perish but will (may) have everlasting life."
FOR---gar---explanatory---John is going to explain something to us
IN THIS MANNER---outw---John is going to tell us in what manner God acted
GOD LOVED----an aorist indicative active verb---past action
THE WORLD---the object of God loved---both Jews and Gentiles
WHEREBY---wste---a conjunction which expresses the result of the action of loved--- or the clause "whereby" introduces could be in apposition to the main clause, expressing the manner in which God loved the world
HE GAVE---an aorist indicative verb---past action
HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON---the object of the verb "gave"
SO THAT---HINA----states either a result or a purpose---really result and purpose are very close together as you would think on it
WHOSOEVER BELIEVES---pas with the article and with the participle---a present tense participle--- every one who believes----all who believe---no exceptions including everyone or all who believes
WILL NOT PERISH---me with the subjunctive---taken as a normal subjunctive then it is translated "may" or "will" both of which stress potential. A negative statement of what will be the result of the one believing. A negative statement of what will be the result of one not believing. [This is AORIST subjunctive passive, sing]
BUT---alla---the strong adversative in the Greek---stating the distinction between two opposite or very different ideas
WILL OR MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE---same as above, stressing potential based on believing. A positive statement of what will be the result of one believing. [This is PRESENT subjunctive active – therefore it CANNOT be the same as the AORIST subjunctive above! This is a positive statement of WHY someone believes. He believes because he presently POSSESSES everlasting life. sing]
Thus John states the potential result negatively and positively based on one believing the gospel. Thus it is a conditional statement. Not perishing and having everlasting life are conditioned on believing the gospel.
I trust this helps, agree or not.
Dr…
----- post 5
Dear Dr…
I agree, your post is just between you and me. I will let others who are interested to ask you in person the question for themselves.
I may be very wrong in memory - I distinctly remember you stating that John 3:16 is declarative. Thanks for the careful and detailed explanation.
My Greek is nearly 'nil.' But I believe the whole idea of potentiality is CONTRARY to the fact of 'God having so loved'! I understand John 3:16 as stating how God so loved and the effect of that love: God so loved that He secured and gave eternal life to His elect... the believing ones BECAUSE they have eternal life. I believe there is spiritual life PRIOR to faith, and that spiritual life is essentially eternal life, begotten of the Holy Spirit.
I have always thought that 'whosoever believes has eternal life' is a statement of fact, i.e. believing is BECAUSE of eternal life, and not believing is IN ORDER to obtain eternal life! Believing is an impossibility without prior spiritual life. Spiritual activities require spiritual life. Do I make any sense, or am I in a very deep ditch???
seeking and learning
sing
----- post 6
Dear Sing,
It is a joy to discuss these matters and be able to disagree. My answer would be that the gospel of John is to present Jesus Christ to men, and it is not a deep gnostic kind of writing that was written to those who were deeply indoctrinated already in a certain view of matters. Thus, if it was written for common men to understand, what would the common man take John 3:16 to say? Would he ever get your interpretation out of it? Would a man ever come to your interpretation without a certain view point of matters already established in his mind. You seem to indicate some clear presuppositions whereby you are coming to John 3:16.
Therefore, I take it in its simplest and plainest meaning. I do not believe we are believers before we become believers by the grace and work of the Holy Spirit within us. We are sinners, lost sinners, blind sinners, wicked sinners though chosen and predestinated sinners to receive the grace of God through the work of the Holy Spirit regenerating us and giving us the gifts of repentance and faith. It is then that we become believers.
Always good to hear from you, and glad to know that you are meditating on the Word of God and seeking understanding.
Dr…
----- post 7
Dear Dr…
Thank you for your 'insight'.
[Note that Dr… is 'insinuating' that one who understands 3:16 as declarative is 'deeply indoctrinated already in a certain view of matters,' have 'a certain view point of matters already established in his mind,' and entertains 'some clear presuppositions whereby you are coming to John 3:16.' I wish to refute these insinuations, and hint that these are perfect descriptions of those born as well as indoctrinated, Arminians]
It is very strange, stranger than fiction I might say. It happened this way. At one of the mealtime, we were just helping children to memorize John 3:16. And the attention was upon 'whosoever believes have eternal life.' Then the youngest boy who is always fascinated with rhyme, blurted out, 'then, whoever eats have physical life.' The oldest boy thought for a moment and made the comment, 'you don't eat to get physical life, you eat because you have physical life.' The daughter chimed in, 'then, eating is the evidence of having life, and not in order to get life.' That simple event got me thinking, and drove me to the simple truth declared in John 3:16.
It was common innocent children - with no indoctrination, with no prior established viewpoint, simply taught by the common facts of life - who in the simplicity of their mind spoke the beautiful and basic and fundamental truth.
The children are of the common man type!!! They hardly belonged to the indoctrinated group!!! And in their childhood simplicity they could see the simplicity of the truth declared in the statement 'whosoever believes have eternal life.' It dawned upon me that is the simple truth being declared about what the love of God in Christ accomplished and how it is manifested. He loved in such a manner that He gives eternal life to sinners... and this is evidence in their believing His Son Jesus Christ.
If you ask a common man in a McDonalds restaurant, "what do you understand by this statement, 'whosoever eats Big-Mac have physical life,'" what would a common American reply? Would a common American say, 'It means whosoever eats Big-Mac will obtain physical life.' Or would a common American say, 'Eating Big-Mac evidences the possession of physical life.'
[The meaning of God's Word is not to be determined by what a common man understood of it. Any common man, and even a believer, was conceived an 'arminian,' born an 'arminian,' regenerated an 'arminian,' and converted an 'arminian,' The ministry of the Word is needed to instruct him in the way of grace - that a believing person has eternal life, i.e. that he believes because he has eternal life. Believing in the blessed Lord Jesus Christ is the activity of the spiritual life ALREADY bestowed in the elected in eternity and redeemed and justified by Christ in time - ALL BY GRACE, SOVEREIGN GRACE. ]
I believe the reverse is true. Uncommon, indoctrinated (by fallen nature and by teaching) men with a certain view point already established in his mind [rank arminians in calvinist's clothes, that is] would see that it is believing IN ORDER to obtain eternal life.
It caused me to shudder to think that my simple view disagrees with such a learned Doctor like you. It troubles me a great deal.
Maybe there is a miscommunication here. You said, "I do not believe we are believers before we become believers by the grace and work of the Holy Spirit within us." I do agree 100% with your statement. BUT I am saying that it is BECAUSE a person has eternal life first that he is able to believe. You said the same thing: 'we become believers by the grace and work of the Holy Spirit within us.' [The grace and work of the Holy Spirit implants the spiritual and eternal life in an elect of God and redeemed of Christ, of which personal faith in Christ is the EVIDENCE.]
a common man seeking and learning,
sing
----- post 8
Dear Brother Sing:
In seeking to explain my position and in having a godly discussion, I do not intend to bring any break of fellowship or lack of respect between us. Certainly, we as Christian brothers should be able to discuss theology without expecting someone to agree with all we say. I do believe that regeneration comes before repentance and faith, but I do not believe that is what is taught in John 3:16, though I do appreciate your explanation of your view. Very enlightening!
So if it has come to the place where this is causing any kind of a rift or even lack of respect between us, I will refrain from seeking to send you my opinions on theological subjects that you ask about in the future.
Perhaps I misunderstood your last e-mail in some manner. If so please correct me. But I value your friendship and fellowship too much, and appreciate your life and ministry for the Lord too much, to do anything to cause a break between us.
I do also believe that regeneration precedes repentance and faith, but I do not think that is what John 3:16 teaches. I also believe that eternal life comes not just after regeneration but with the whole process of regeneration, repentance and faith---all produced by the grace and power of God.
So, my dear brother in the Lord, if this is on the verge of bringing a break between our fellowship, for my part we will agree to disagree on this matter without being disagreeable.
Please correct me if I have read or interpreted anything incorrectly which you have stated. Be assured of my continued love and prayer for you.
As always, gratefully and prayerfully,
Dr…
------ post 9
Dear Dr,
Please be assured that there was absolutely no disrespect intended in my previous post. Maybe there must be some misunderstanding. Perhaps the manner I write conveys it that way. I was just being very frank and open sharing with you what's going through my mind.
You have endeared yourself to our hearts by your books…! Your friendship and fellowship is still cherished dearly and treasured.
Thank you for your further explanation of the text. Maybe the key lies in your statement that "eternal life comes not just after regeneration but with the whole process of regeneration, repentance and faith---all produced by the grace and power of God."
Perhaps I am asking the wrong question with regard to the text! That's what I am often told.
I tender my sincere apology if I have offended you in any way. Perhaps my example of the common American man was offensive. I do apologize.
blessed,
sing
------ post 10
Dear Brother in Christ:
No apology necessary---no offense taken---no love lost when it is the love of Christ which binds our hearts together.
Will you be able to attend the conference in S… this summer, as I will be ministering on the Solas of the Reformation? It would be a delight to see you again!!!
Give all my regards. I have fond memories of my visit to Malaysia.
Gratefully,
Dr…
-------------- post 11
on 28/6/04 3:25 AM, Dr wrote:
Dear Brother Sing:
Your question becomes clear again. You are really speaking of the ordis salutis. That is what you spoke of when we first discussed the matter. I think you might do better in approaching the subject from the theological basis than from the John 3:16 passage.
I wish we could have some time for further discussion on the matter.
Maybe in His time.
God's blessings,
Dr…
------------ post 12
on 28 Jun 2004 09:56:47 sing wrote:
Dear Dr…
We were remembering you at our church prayer meeting after our evening service - that the Lord would grant you a safe journey and a profitable ministry in S…..
Thank you for your further thoughts on John 3:16 and the suggestion how to approach the subject the relationship between believing and eternal life. If approaching the subject from different angles - i.e. whether theological basis or simple exegesis - does not yield harmonious result, THEN truth has become something relative, and one can make the Scriptures says what he likes by employing different approaches. This is a frightening concept, to me anyway!
Your exegesis of John 3:16 have made some 'reformed Baptist' brethren here MORE entrenched in the notion that believing is in order to obtain eternal life. Your exegesis has lend credence to their view. Some have made it very clear and affirmed to me that their starting point and my starting point are irreconcilable.
Someone said this to me, " My presupposition is: 'one believes in order to have eternal life’ and your presupposition is: 'one believes because he has been born again eternal life.'"
So you see, the so-called 'like-minded' people are world apart at the heart of the gospel of salvation. You will likely meet not a few such folks at the conference. They may endeavour to get more credence from you for your position. It is always good to have a well-known Professor to support one's view!
May the Lord bless you and your ministry richly, and watch over your dear wife while you are away.
Do you know Dr M T from SBTS at Louisville. He is coming to lecture at BTS in Penang.
your seeking and learning brother in Christ,
sing
-----
post script
My take at John 3:16 -
- God so loved ... because He loved the world that lies in spiritual darkness and death and condemnation, world in rebellion and in enmity against Him - He loved the utterly un-loveable, and He loved such with an immeasurable love. (He elect were of the world... sons of disobedience and children of wrath)
- God so loved because He gave His only begotten Son... His only Beloved for the utterly un-loveable.
- God so loved because He subjected His only begotten beloved Son to the most horrible humiliation and suffering to secure eternal life for the justly condemned enemies.
- God so loved... because He imputed Christ's righteousness to them by free grace alone when Christ died at the cross.
- God so loved... because He applies Christ's righteousness by free grace alone while we were dead in sin, and were in enmity, were sons of disobedience and children of wrath
- God so loved that He bestowed eternal life to them by the sovereign and free grace regeneration of His Holy Spirit. And that eternal life animates all the spiritual activities... therefore there are believing ones.
- God so loved because He nourishes all those in whom that He has begotten eternal life with the ministry of the word... This is why there are believers when the gospel is preached. The eternal life that makes believing possible is DIFFERENT from the redeemed life as a result of faith. The salvation that makes believing possible is different from the salvation experienced as a result of faith.
- God so loved that He preserves all those in whom that He has begotten eternal life in that state of grace and salvation.
- God so loved that He shall glorify all those in whom that He has begotten eternal life that they may enter into their eternal inheritance.
We know that God did so love because there are the believing ones in Christ Jesus. Yes,
God so loved that He sent His Son who did everything necessary to secure eternal life for those who deserve eternal damnation. This eternal life is birthed in them by the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit... and evidences or manifests itself in faith in the blessed Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ through the ministry of the word.
³And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:2. Please note that eternal life is the CAUSE... knowing the giver of eternal life as the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent is the EFFECT. Is anything more obvious than this? Does one need more proof?
------------- post 13
Dear Brother Sing:
I trust this day finds you well and rejoicing in our Lord. I was in F… last week in two different churches preaching. It was Spring Break time at our school. The Lord blessed, but now I am back to teaching and preaching here in C....
I am writing to ask you to do me a couple of favors.
First, would you send Brother A a copy of my e-mails that I have sent you. I would like for him to have a copy of them so he will know what I have said. I have them on hard copies here, but not in my e-mail system, which means I would have to retype them all in order to send them. Several other brothers have asked if you could send them to them, so I assume that you have them in some form whereby they can be sent.
Second, though I have requested that those e-mails not be sent to anyone without my permission, I would not be opposed to you telling men my position, if they should ask. I am a little concerned that someone might hear that I have made my request for those e-mails not to be distributed, and assume that I have a different view than I do possess. So if anyone asks, you can tell them that we do not agree on the matter, and that I believe the statements there are conditional.
I still have gracious memories of my trip to S… and M…, and am looking forward to coming to S… again. I hope I can see you while there.
By the way, didn't you ask me for Roger’s address or phone number or something? Did you ever get in touch with him? What was his answer to your request to come to Malaysia?
Thanks again for these favors. I do cherish your fellowship in the Lord, and am glad we can be friends though in disagreement on the above matter.
Give all in your church my regards.
Gratefully and prayerfully,
Dr…
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