Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" 2Ti 2:7.

Wednesday, June 22, 2022

When Calvinists ask rhetorically, "Are Arminian believers saved?"

"Are Arminian believers saved?
They are so messed up in their doctrines!"
Does this necessarily imply that soundness of 
doctrines is in some way instrumental in salvation? 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/3404691711546
June 21, 2012

When Calvinists ask rhetorically, "Are Arminian believers saved?" - what does that question betray what the Calvinists believe how they themselves are saved?

Michael Lim
"calvinist" and "arminians" are saved the same way, regardless whether they are aware or not...

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
The fact that arminians do not believe in eternal security

Sing F Lau
Well stated Michael Lim.
When Calvinists ask, "Are Arminian believers saved?" - what does that question betray what the Calvinists themselves believe how they are saved?

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
michael does have a point,and it is well taken

Sing F Lau
Dellis Layne Worsham Sr., are you saying that, on the basis of their erroneous belief, the Calvinists doubt the salvation of the Arminian believers?

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
I have a problem with those who believe, for one thing, a prayer and their choice to come to Crist is the foundation of their faith. But as Mike pointed out, there are those who are saved and then led astray by the false arminian doctrine. We who are saved are not saved according to anything we have done.It is of God alone. Even the baptist who thinks they got saved just because they said the sinners prayer as I did will, after study come to the conclusion that he was saved before he walked the aisle. Tha arminian throws in the part we call discipleship as the manner in which one stays saved and by doing so becomes a slave of the very law that was only meant as a schoolmaster to lead us unto Christ,which schoolmaster we are not under if we are in Christ.

Sing F Lau
Dellis, You can say so much without answering my simple question <looooo>!

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
maybe there are too many holes in your question.

Sing F Lau
Point out each hole, and I will plug them so that you will get to answer my question.

You commented, "The fact that arminians do not believe in eternal security"

Is their believing so the reason the Calvinists question the salvation of the Arminian believers?

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
Would true faith lead them to have doubts about their security. Or would false teaching of scripture do this? If we are saved,it is always done in the same manner,yet it is the teaching that I am offended by and not the fact that a brother has been led astray. Just because we dont agree and yet are saved by the same God does not make us enemies,it merely shows a weakness in doctrinal understanding.

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
You asked why it betrays what we believe, I have told you.

Sing F Lau
You probably didn't get my question, then.
So, based on the doctrinal weakness of the Arminians, the Calvinists doubt the salvation of the Arminians. is that what you are saying?

Sing F Lau
Dellis @ "You asked why it betrays what we believe, I have told you."
--------

I asked this - what does that question (Calvinists' question that doubts the salvation of the Arminian believers) betray what the Calvinists themselves believe how they are saved?

You get the question now?

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
I dont think I doubt their salvation as much as they do. The point being, were they coaxed by man to commit to repentance or was it the Holy Spirit who did it? I guess the way one thinks he achieved salvation leaves one questioning whether he recieved it or not. I have actually tried not to judge on how others believe,I choose to let the bible do that for me. I happen to believe that God has soldiers in every denomination. But I rest assured that when someone begins to doubt that Christ paid it all,I know it was not by the leading of the Holy Spirit. So yes I do doubt the salvation of some arminians but I dont single the ones on that camp out, because the enemy has infiltrated every religious sect. Only let God do the saving and leave a mans doctrine out of it. I just happen to see more truth in scripture as a calvinst but as you might have noticed I do not affiliate myself with any denomination. I'm a mix of baptist and presbeterian by choice, neither of which are arminian in nature.

PJ Walters
The reason some of them doubt the salvation of Arminians is that they see that Arminians have not believed in a Jesus like theirs and are thusly condemned because they have not believed.

余雅靜
PJ has a point.
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." - Proverbs 21: 2 (KJB)

Johnny Davis
What's an Armanian?

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
PJ, the reason some doubt the salvation of arminians is because they are in doubt of their salvation.Perhaps they are the doubting Thomas's of christianity,but they add the pre-requisite of good works as a basis for the eternal life they have been promsed...If they endure to the end. This concept is totaly unbiblical...ie.they can not claim they are saved until they know for sure, at the thrown of judgement,that they have no unconfessed sins. A calvinist believes based on the promises of God concerning his salvation and preservation that he will endure to the end and have no reason to confess any sins at the thrown of judgement, since they were all paid for by Jesus, on the cross. Since God does pondereth the hearts, if the heart does not possess that kind faith and therefore live by it,the abscence of such faith can be a sign of unregenerate religionism or the result of a regenerated man being taught by one of these arminian wolves so that he lives in fear and doubt and serves God as a sense of duty and not with a sense of true love and devotion as most calvinist do....You see, I said most,because there are many unregenerate calvinists as well IMO Like the bible says"we shall know them by their fruits.

My own idea is that there willl many in that day who will say Lord Lord and Jesus will say to them, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you. And Johnny, It is not armanian, it is arminian....Google the two.

Johnny Davis
So, if I have no doubt about my salvation, which I don't, then, I'm simply a Christian, and not an armanian Christian. Just want to be sure, I'm not an armanian, and didn't know it. Perhaps, a more direct response, to What's an Armanina, would be helpful. Thanks.

Vicki Lloyd Raines
@ Johnny, arminians basically believe you have to 'accept' Jesus before you can be saved, that you have to 'let' Him save you. They believe that when you make yourself have faith and believe, then you can get saved. They don't realize that faith and believing is the RESULT of already being saved.

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
Johnny Davis check the spelling. An Armenian is one from the country of Armenia; an arminian is one who follows the teaching of a man whose last name was Arminius. ArmInians do not believe is once saved always saved as the Baptist and Presbyterians do. OSAS is a subject that the arminian believe betrays their concept of a works salvation and thereby believes his salvation can be lost.

Johnny Davis
@Vicki. Thanks. I have been an Armanian, since age 12, until age 50+, until guidance through the Word, as told my you and your network of Christians. Didn't know it. Yes, "acceptance" of the grace of God, was REQUIRED, as a work, along with other works, confession by mouth, baptism (the "right" way and for the remission of sins), and the constant fear of "falling away." Perhaps this lengthy babbling of Sing's status, will be helpful to some that was given by God, an assurance of salvation (rather than "I hope I'm saved" that I have been good enough), and all that. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is another teaching, that the group resisted, as the "spiritual" understanding, seems diminished, in their physical, logic understanding of the Word. Yet, they do not call themselves, nor have I heard the term Armanian. It seems that perhaps the folks using these terms, are to identify someone, not by their faith as a fellow Christian, but after a label, such as Catholic, Baptist, or Church of Christ. God saves individual people, through his church, not through organizations. Christian brothers are in all "organizations," including Primitive Baptist. But, hye, that's just me.

Sing F Lau
When men can't differentiate an Armenian from Armenia, and an Arminian, a follower of the teaching of Jacobus Arminus, then it is better to hold their peace. <looooooooool>

Michael Gowens
😉


Julius Stewart
Any time my eternal destiny is based upon what I do there will be room for doubt. The sad thing is that one who believes this can never have total assurance that he is saved no matter what degree of Arminian he is. The tactics of the arminian preacher is to "key in" on or focus upon the failures of the flesh in order convict people. Then get them to doubt their salvation because of his pesistant focus of failure in the flesh. Then there is a constant and ongoing "opportunity" to re-commit to Christ at "alter calls", giving people the "chance" to make sure they have "done enough" to be saved. The only problem is when they leave the alter having "renewed themselves" they usually cant get out of the church before having sinned in some way and then they are hoping that they don't die before they have an opportunity to "get right" with God again. I know this fom experience! I could never be "good enough" to remain saved for any length of time. If these people would be honest with themselves, according to what the preacher is preaching they cant do it either. What a sad theology in a sence. What a great opportunity for the teaching of the KINGDOM! What a great place to start teaching the difference between "fellowship and sonship". Oh that I would have a greater zeal to "get right" with God as far as fellowship is concerned, knowing that my "sonship" is secure in the covenant of grace. 🙂

Johnny Davis
Who is Arminius, that a follower of Christ, should not ask about, eepecially if called one, whatever it is. There may be a problem of unity in Christianity, between four brothers, one says, I follow Armania, I follow Sing, I follow JWD, and the last, I follow Calvin (another word that pops up a lot). The problem would be, if any one, does not follow Christ. Do followers of Armania, now that I know at least, of his existance as a man, follow Chris4t? If yes, he is a brother. If no, he is not in the kingdom. That is, if he knows of Christ.

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis, with all due respect I can muster, most of what you write come across as subjective and woolly. Often I don't even know what you are trying to say.....

Many people in the kingdom of God have very deficient and warped idea about Christ, His work, His offices... which is why we are here discussing about these things with the Scriptures as the sole reference. But so often... people rave and rant on and on with no reference to the Scriptures... expressing their colourful experiences... which have their proper place.

Johnny Davis
@Sing. So be it. That is your opinion of my opinion, then. And I say that, with all the love I can muster. I do appreciate your godliness in making the status, for comments, as they are indeed a springboard, for truth. Maybe so. Yet, I will not be a follower of Sing, any more than some of the first Christians wanted to be follows of Paul, Silas, John Mark, Peter, any of the writers, or Apollos. I will follow Christ. You use the term "subjective" as if absolute truth can be found somewhere, and that you have it. Let me ask you a question about that, again, as a loving brother? Why hasn't God given His truth to others, if they, have the same access to truth, as you, being the Word. Only you, can OBJECTIVELY answer every element of truth, with a checklist, of truths, and false truths. Why do you think God did not give us the answer3, if it that simple. I'm just curious. I'm open to my misunderstanding of you, as a Westerner, and communication and cultural differences. But I have yet to see in you, any consideration of anything, anyone has had to say, except and unless, it matches what you say is truth. I would be putting faith in man, if I were to give blanket acceptance, regardless of the motives, which I suspect in you, are pure. My fault perhaps, and I will certainly pray about this, and continue the comments.

Sing F Lau
Christ alone is to be followed.
And He has given us His truth.
And His truth can be understood.
His truth is absolute.

So the exercise is to point us to what Christ has said, and work from there the ABSOLUTE truth to be believe.

You said, "You use the term "subjective" as if absolute truth can be found somewhere, and that you have it."

But your premise is that absolute truth beyond God's children... and the best they can have is some subjective and mere conjectures!!!

Our basic premise is different.

I have no faith in man, but in Scriptures of God alone for truth... absolute truth.

You don't need to put words into my mouth.

Sing F Lau
I understand. He told me everything... including your thanking him for the birthday greeting.

Johnny Davis
That is good, Sing, that you have no expectation that your writings are to be taken as absolute truth. Nor do I. EVERYONE having God and the Word as the center properly uses scripture as a basis for their thought, I certainly do, nothing comes except by the Word first, and prayer for understanding second. Often, in answer to the prayer fro understaind, other men's interpretation of the same scriptures, is the answer. It has been for me, I'm sure for you as well. I pray for forgiveness, in not seeing the humility in others, as you Sing, when my body misinterprets the heart. Gracias Amigo.

Sing F Lau
Paul Thomas, visit some Calvinist groups on FB... you will inevitably see them!!! <loooooool>

Sing F Lau
In your mind as a 5-p calvinists, does a messed up doctrines jeopardize one's salvation?

Josiah Lau
temporal salvation from the terrors and uncertainties wrought by faulty understanding of God's word perhaps

Sing F Lau
Paul Thomas @ "The Bible is clear that there are some doctrines that are essential to salvation..."
May I ask to make sure I do understand you correctly. Do you mean that knowing and believing correctly some doctrines is ESSENTIAL to one's salvation?

Is knowing and believing the correct doctrine of justification essential to one's salvation?

Josiah Lau
and what about if they rely on Christ for that justification to be saved? does that give them salvation? if not, what?

Johnny Davis
@Sing. Why do you ask others, "Is knowing and believing the correct doctrine of justification essential to one's salvation?" Pardon my being confrontational, but from the tone of your remarks, it seems that YOUR doctrine IS ESSENTIAL (BY YOUR DOCTINE, i MEAN THE DOCTRINE OF TRUTH, from the Word, as YOU understand it?

Josiah Lau
I'm sorry, I'm laughing by now. Why do you say that? He was responding in clarification of what Paul said before that.

Sing F Lau
Paul Thomas, I did not ask if a man need a perfect understanding of any doctrine to be saved. I did ask if a proper understanding of anything is necessary to salvation?

Is a man SAVED by God's free grace so that he is enabled to believe, OR does a man need some measure of knowledge of some doctrines in order to be saved?

Is your justification through YOUR faith?

If you imagine so, please read here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html

Sing F Lau
Josiah Lau, good question!

Bottom line: God already saved a man when his mind is completely messed up about the gospel of free and sovereign grace, in fact when his mind is adverse to the gospel!

Each elect is saved in exactly the same was as far as his eternal salvation is concerned.

It is the role of the gospel ministry to straighten his messed up mind... and align the mind to the gospel truth. Some have very little benefit of the gospel ministry to do that for them, others are more fortunate in the providence of God, some are more responsive other less...

Among God's children, some have clearer understanding of the truth of their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace, others have less, and some have little.

Sound doctrines saves only in the temporal sense, just as you have stated - 'temporal salvation from the terrors and uncertainties wrought by faulty understanding of God's word perhaps.'

But when Calvinists ask that loaded question, they have in mind eternal salvation. If eternal salvation is in some way dependent upon one knowledge of the truth... then the Calvinists have shot themselves in their own forehead too... because they are pretty messed up in some crucial doctrines.

Johnny Davis
@Josiah. Because, EVERYTHING I say as a comment, which he encourages his friends to make, are answered, not with agreement or reason for disagreement, but by such apparent self-glorification, regarding his belief, and that irt is truth. I take no pride in my remarks. I do not intend controversy. Heck, I don't even know who is right, who is wrong,, or if it even matters. I have even praised God, for the truth found in Sing's words, through the Spirit, and have complimented his acceptance of these thoughts, God provided, to him, first, and then to me. So, as long as my thoughts, equally from the Word and the Spirit of God, are dismissed, I will continue. I have an answer, for any man that asks. That is scripture. I am not an Armanian, a RCC, a blbbling Baptist, I am a Christian, just better, no worse than Sing. I don't care what4 he, or any other Christian is. And to that last point, to each his own, I suppose, I worship most every Sunday in church, with Christians. Don't you?

Johnny Davis
@Sing. What's a Calvanist, and what "loaded" question do they ask?

Sing F Lau
@Sing. Why do you ask others, "Is knowing and believing the correct doctrine of justification essential to one's salvation?" Pardon my being confrontational, but from the tone of your remarks, it seems that YOUR doctrine IS ESSENTIAL (BY YOUR DOCTRINE, i MEAN THE DOCTRINE OF TRUTH, from the Word, as YOU understand it?
===========

Did you read my comment above? Read it again and again... and again before you make another comment... PLEASE.

Do they answer your questions?
You didn't get my point did you?

Those haughty elitist calvinists doubt the salvation of the Arminians because they (A) could NOT understand or believe as well as them (the C) - as though one's ETERNAL salvation is somehow conditioned upon one's level of accuracy in understanding of the truth. If that be the sword the calvinists wield against the Arminians, the same sword will devour the Calvinists... because they too are pretty messed up in some doctrines.

Do you get my point?

I have only sacked one person from my FB so far. if you are not happy here, make yourself the second one, and save yourself from some anxieties!

But please stay... I need you to test my patience! Thank Johnny.

Johnny Davis
Sing, I read your comment, I know you intended it for me, and I will pray as I do every day, that the motives of all on Facebook are pure, in their comments to each other. I have been exactly where you seem to be, in your Christian walk, which is very early, and in my view, not filled with wisdom. You take the comments of selected one, myself at least, and dismiss them with various words, which in no way, a reasonable man, would conclude is loving. I have been the same to you, have apologized when I was wrong, and you continue. The conclusion by body and mind makes frok this, which has been a focus of prayer, is that there is something in YOUR mind, and body, that takes precedence over your deep spirit of Christ. Take it for what you will. And no, I will never unfriend anyone. Especially a brother. Regardless of the patience testing coming my way from you. It's your status. You can dismiss my comments, in any way you like. Just keep God's commandments, in doing so. And you know what those two are. I'll do the same.

Johnny Davis
Aside from the "personal" and human stuff of the last message, may I ask, in Christian love, why you are concerned with the Calvanists, the Armanians, the RCC, whoever else you want to speak of, as not having truth. Why do you not simply speak truth, and when someone comments in a way you do not like, explain why their comment is not truth to you. A Calvanists, or whatever, might be touched by your truth, if it is in fact truth, but they certainly will not, by words of condemnation. True or false? Speculation or practical teaching application for good? Humble of something else?

Johnny Davis
Anyone, thinking they are sole possessors of truth, whether Armanian, Calvinizers, any name, are arrogant, in my view. A humble person, will consider the possibility of being mistaken, just as those such a person, calls in error. Yet, regardless, the promise "Ye SAHLL know the truth," was not make to one man, to impart that truth to others. God promised freedom, from truth. Ad the promise was DEFINITE. "Shall" not "may" or "conditioned upon". I blabber on.

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis, it seems you are so unhappy here... get so worked up by what I have said. And you keep whining and whinging.

What make you think that I am condemning the Calvinists? You are SO OBTUSE! And you are so annoying!

I am telling the Calvinists that by the standard they judge Arminian's salvation, they condemned themselves too by the same standard. That's a great kindness I believe! But you perceive it entirely the opposite way! What's the matter with you???
Shoooo!

Sing F Lau
Paul Thomas @ I am not sure what you are getting at here but I have been neither haughty nor elite but I have sought to be Biblical and charitable.
==========
Who is talking about you? You do not represent the Calvinists, do you?

Sing F Lau
So you haven't heard of Calvinists who seriously doubt the salvation of the Arminians because of the deficient understanding of the gospel truth concerning their salvation by God's free grace?

Sing F Lau
Paul Thomas @ 'What is the purpose of this post anyways?'
I'm surprised you still didn't get it!

The basis on which the Calvinists doubt the salvation of the Arminian believers is the same basis that will slice their own throat on their salvation.

Jackson Walsh
It misrepresents the grace of the Lord they claim to believe saves all of God's children. I've literally heard Calvinists state that so and so's doctrine "leads straight to hell". They literally believe their gospel to be what regenerates a human being, yet they'll get around it whatever way they can. Some of them will deny believing a saint has to persevere to be saved, later to say that a saint fallen away was never a saint to begin with. A very twisty view of eternity the popular camps of the Christian life have that doubt the sovereign grace of our lord to save all his sheep the same way (John 3:8) and that not one of them will be finally lost (John 10:27).

Sing F Lau
Mr Paul Thomas, thou art the man... and here's the proof Sir.
I inquired to make sure:
"In your mind as a 5-p calvinists, does a messed up doctrines jeopardize one's salvation?
You answered:
"We are not saved apart from a right understanding of the gospel but that does not mean that we are saved by our perfect doctrine."

There is the answer in BLACK and WHITE:
"We are not saved apart from a right understanding of the gospel ..."
My answer is this:
"God... saved a man when his mind was completely messed up about the gospel of free and sovereign grace, in fact when his mind was adverse to the gospel!"

You are a Calvinist, and you believe one's salvation is DEPENDENT and CONDITIONED to some degree upon one's understanding of the gospel truth.

Case closed.

Sing F Lau
Jackson Walsh, the problem of their inconsistencies and contradictions may be attributed to their ignorance, as well as rejection of the distinction between eternal salvation, and temporal salvation.

Sing F Lau
Far far less than it... it is just cheapskate hollow political sloganeering! Keep to the subject... master this discipline.

Johnny Davis
So, from this discussion, I have learned this. Correct me if I am mistaken (bet there will not be a problem pointing out "error"). A Calvinist, believes salvation (for the moment, no distinction between temporal and spiritual salvation), comes from one's own knowledge and application of truth from the Word, specifically: doing a physical something, like "believing," perhaps, "repenting," and even more vague, being "good." If I leave God out of Salvation, I am a Calvanist, then? Right?

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis, A Calvinist will die of seizure when he read your description of him!!! He will have a massive heart attack! <loooooool>

Johnny Davis
So, I take it Sing, that my understanding of what I've read, primarily from your comments on your own status, then is wrong. Please correct me. I don't think I need to be a Calvanist, but I wish to be sure, I'm not, not knowing what a Calvinist is?

Johnny Davis
I think I get the jok, "heart" attack, but I'm not sure of that one, either.

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis, you need to ask a Calvinist what a Calvinist is. Wouldn't be right for me to tell you.

Sing F Lau
Robert Connolly Beavan, watch your manners, else you will be blocked. You are MOST CERTAINLY a LIAR if I did not delete all your post. If I have deleted all your post then I am what you say. So, watch your mouth.

So, apologize if you want further courtesy here.

Johnny Davis
@Sing. Then, why do you call them by their name, CALVANIST? If the truth you teach is intended for individualss out of your love from the person (rather than to display your knowledge of truth), then would not the approach, which is loving (I am speaking of God's love, not the sentimental, subjective, manipulative, conjecture you accuse me of), be more effective in reaching the hearts of seekers of truth? Or, do you really care for these PEOPLE, you call Calvanists. You have been given by the Creator of the Universe, the story of all time, to tell, the gospel of Jesus. Tell it in a way for people to have a reason to listen, not have a reason to turn away, if you consider their beliefs in error. I refuse to judge your heart, I believe it is in the right place, but just in case, take my words, through God's spirit I pray. I'm much older, have seen the approach you use for many more years, and in the American culture, have NEVER found that it effective in changing error to truth. Never.

Johnny Davis
@Robert. Maybe just me, but I would never block or unfriend anyone, ESPECIALLY, one that does not agree with my understanding of God's Word, that only God, gave to me. I have no evcil intention to believe, what I believe of God and Christ, and have no reason to change anyone's blief, by the same token. Yet, the last person I would cease conversation with, are those the hurl words of confrontation or meanness, because those are the ones, in my understanding, that the LOVING Father, wants His LOVING people, to reach. Sentimental? I pray not a mere sentiment, but the true definition of God's LOVE. ,

Sing F Lau
Robert Connolly Beavan, If you block me for speaking the truth then I will count that as a blessing.
==========
So, you insist that I did delete all your post then?

Sing F Lau
Robert Connolly Beavan, Paul Thomas he is a false teacher because he says he holds to a Calvinist view of the doctrine of God's Saving Grace yet he says man makes the decision to accept Salvation which is an Arminian doctrine.
============

I am very surprised!
I am not a Calvinist, and I denounce that man makes the decision to accept salvation.
It seems you can't even represent me correctly.

When you can't even represent me correctly, what make you think you have the right to dispute with me? That's presumptuous, isn't it?

Sing F Lau
Paul Thomas @ "are you telling me that a person can be saved and not believe that Jesus is the Christ? Are you telling me that a Mormon can be saved? If so you are a false teacher. If not, we are saying the same thing.

===============

A Mormon can be saved by God, a Muslim can be saved by God... a Buddhist can be saved by God... an atheist can be saved... even the chief of sinners can be saved by God... because there are CONVERTS from all these groups.

Paul Thomas @ "I too have a question for you. Can Calvinists be saved?"

Only a saved man can end up with calvinistic belief, or as a Calvinist. So the question is stupid in the way you intended it... it is like asking, can a saved man be saved? <LOL>

A man who is not yet saved can never be a Calvinist. There is no Calvinists that need saving by God. But Calvinists need to be saved from their errors. There are some calvinists among those that are already saved. Only some who are already saved turn out to be Calvinists... others continue in their Arminian mindset.

And Calvinists are pretty messed up in some of their doctrines toooooo.

Johnny Davis
@Somg/ Tjere upi gp agaom/ Qipte frp, Rpma;d Reagam. wjem rimmomg fpr {resodemt diromg a debate/ Ca;;omg sp,epmepme a ;abe;. amd mpw. addomg tp tjat amd ca;;omg tje, a fa;se teacjer/ I'd be careful, in the kingdom of a jealous God, to make sure, that before I make such claims about someone else's motives for teaching, that they are NOT based on love. More importantly, be sure that YOUR motive, is. And NOT love of yourself, for being, in your mind correct4, rather than "false."

Johnny Davis
That goes for everyone, debating spiritual matters, including myself, perhaps, principally.

Sing F Lau
Paul Thomas asked, "are you telling me that a person can be saved and not believe that Jesus is the Christ?"
========

God saves a person when he is still dead in trespasses and sins, and in active rebellion against him... God saved him by His work of effectually calling him out of His state of sin and death to that of righteousness and eternal. He is saved and is perfectly fitted for eternal glory.

A man is saved by free grace alone... and that man may or may not be brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry.

Johnny Davis
I'll step in, at this point, and see if Sing, will agree that my thoughts on this subject, tested by prayer, agree with his. Here goes. The ONLY anything that saves man, is God, called by some, grace and mercy. Man is not saved by being good, having obeyed the right formula of the right church, any of that. God does not lie. God loves. To say, belief, or anything else, is a condition, to which God acts, is saying the same thing as, "I speak for God. God is going to, or has done this, because I know it to be true (by the Word, prayer, or any other bit of direction direct from God). I know God that well." First of all, that cannot be in accordance with God's commands to love. Secondly, God has not given Individual A, from the USA, any more revelation, than person B, from somewhere else. I simply ask this, Brother Thomas, if God does not lie, and God loves, and your personal theology of the Requirement of anything, including belief, is necessary for God to extend His grace, then what about Mr. Polynesian Man, who NEVER had access to any knowledge of God or Christ, to believe or not believe. Is Mr. Polynesian Man, condemned for disobedience, by default?

Johnny Davis
@Sing. Now, in the love of God, it seems you are getting somewhere. You said, quite correctly in my opinion, that "Calvanists can be saved. Yet their doctrine is messed up." So, I now ask you, and this is basic philosophical difference, I believe between you and me. What is the point at debating doctrines, that are messed up, if they have no bearing on salvation (which they don't, as apparently we both agree). Wouldn't our time spent with others, be more productively spent, on spreading the gospel of Jesus, rather than winning debates. Actually, anyone can win a debate, in their own mind. Some of the discussion may center around what Christ means to you, as subjective as that might be. If positive, perhaps the person on the edge of turning his God-given righteousness, into a follower of Christ, would occur. Now, about that Mormon, believing in Christ, and believing in some man, quite inappropriately in my view of the Word. Is he saved, eternally and spiritually, or is he to be cast in the lake of fire, with the devil and his angels. We'll consider the RCC next, if you like? I haven't found the Calvanist Church of Jesus Christ, yet, by the way, so I don't know who to ask. I don't care, really, if they are believers. Am curious, why you do?

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis @ "What is the point at debating doctrines, that are messed up, if they have no bearing on salvation (which they don't, as apparently we both agree). Wouldn't our time spent with others, be more productively spent, on spreading the gospel of Jesus, rather than winning debates.
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Johnny Johnny Johnny!!! Aren't you so self-contradictory???
A man with a messed up doctrines preaches a false gospel... misrepresents the truth of the salvation, dishonor Christ, gives credit to men... deceives men.

See the point Johnny.
Who wants to win debates? For me, it is recovering the gospel truth.
Without recovering the gospel truth, there is NO gospel to preach,,, no good news for GOD'S CHILDREN.

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis @ "I haven't found the Calvanist Church of Jesus Christ, yet, by the way, so I don't know who to ask."
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Paul Thomas has said he is a 5-p Calvinist. Why don't you ask him?

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis, oh, I just discovered that Paul Thomas has left as a coward... because he accused me as a false teacher... and I gave him the opportunity to demonstrate what falsehood I teach... he just left. Aah, that's a Calvinist, throw the mud and than run to hide.

Johnny Davis
@Sing. I don't know the personal situation, and I misspoke when I said "never" have fellowship with a brother. There is one circumstance, and it has not occurred, that my mind knows. If in conversation during fellowship with a brother, leads to hatred, then the fellowship principle is letting used by Satan, so that I would sin. Not to take sides, on the person that "hid," perhaps he, was wanting to run, as he should, to "avoid the presence of evil." Not you, as evil; but Satan, attempting to place evil in his heart. Yet, that action, is between him and God, and the sword thing, as well. At least, that's how I've looked at myself, through your excellent status, from scripture. That sword can be pretty sharp, and has been to me, I'll admit.

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