https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10205847281836700
February
22, 2016 ·
Everlasting,
and Eternity
I
saw this meme /mi:m/ and left this
comment:
Just
thinking, trying to make sense of the Scriptures.
Eternity
does not end because it is not in the realm of time, but everlasting does. That
which is everlasting lasts only as long as time lasts. And time does not last
forever. It shall end at a particular point in the future, just as it began at
a particular point in the past! When time ceases we enter eternity.
The
very concept of "lasting" necessarily presupposes time. When there is
NO time, "everlasting" is a nonsensical concept.
So
there is a distinction between eternity/eternal and everlasting.
Hell
is everlasting... it lasts until the end of time. After that, there will be no
more hell.
Rev
20
13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up
the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their
works.
14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake
of fire.
Hell
shall be EMPTIED of its captives at the end of time, and discarded and disposed
of as a USED item. ONLY those whose names were written in the Book of life
were delivered from the lake of fire.
No
such thing was said about them concerning hell. Now you will recall the numerous
solemn warnings of hell addressed to the disciples by the Lord Jesus Christ
himself.
The
lake of fire is eternal, in the realm of eternity.
"And
death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
All
those whose names were written in the Book of Life have no part in the second
death. The necessary implication is that they do not all escape the first
death. That explains Christ's solemn warnings on hell. Death and hell must
SURRENDER all of them that belonged to Christ, to be readied for their glorious
eternity with Christ.
In
time, death and hell do harass EVEN those whose names were written in the Book
of life. In eternity, when time has ended, all of them shall be safely gathered
into eternal glory.
Just
thinking.
(One TETH left some comments but has deleted them.)
Sing
F Lau
If
the word of God leads me that way, I will believe it. At the moment I'm not
quite sure yet.
What
is the hell that the Lord Jesus Christ solemnly warned His disciples of?
Sing F Lau
Thanks
for your interest in this subject. I thank you. Few are interested to STUDY the
Scriptures.... minds are all made up.
TETH:
If a man's sins have been paid for by Christ at Calvary, on what basis is he
sent to hell after he dies? Is there any more justification in sending him to
hell for one day than there is for eternity?
That's
a fair question.
Your
reasoning assumes one thing: Christ's payment of a man's sins covered BOTH
temporal punishment and eternal punishment. I believe that the time in hell is
TEMPORAL. Eternity DOES NOT begin until the resurrection to eternal glory.
Christ's
work of redemption saved His people from their eternity in the lake of fire.
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the
lake of fire." Whosoever's name is in the Book of life is redeemed by
Christ from the lake of fire, didn't say from hell. If from hell, why would
Christ waste time warning His disciples from the reality of hell, and warn them
to AVOID it at all cost? Christ is no jester, like so many.
TETH:
The Lord's comments design the notion that sin is worthy of death, that saying
to your brother "Raca" is deserving of such, and that one's salvation
is utterly dependent upon the sovereign mercy of God almighty (Matthew 5:22).
It is a reminder that such behaviour is deserving of eternal damnation, apart
from the grace of God, and thus it is a behaviour from which one should depart.
It most certainly is NOT saying, "You can be one of God's children and
still end up in hell after you die - if only for a season." Because
nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 8:31-39) and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord
(II Corinthians 5:8).
If
such a behaviour is deserving of ETERNAL DAMNATION, then the non-such behaviour
would save them ETERNAL DAMNATION, Christ exhorts them to behave in such a way
as to avoid it. Be careful.... lest I mistake you for saying eternal salvation is by works, 🙂
Hell
DOES NOT and HAS NOT separate any of God's children from the love of God which
is in Christ Jesus our Lord, for at resurrection they shall each one enter into
their eternal inheritance. At the appointed time, even hell MUST deliver up
Christ's redeemed. For the love of God in Jesus Christ SAVED His children from
the lake of fire - that's what I read. What do you read?
And
I read that hell is NOT eternal. It shall be emptied at the appointed time. I'm
just reading the Holy Scriptures and taking what it says seriously. I have no
use for tradition, no matter how ancient and revered they are!
2Cor
5:8 is a great comfort to those who lived and died like the apostle Paul. Amen and
amen.
Sing F Lau
TETH @ "So to die in the Lord is to be in hell - for some. I see. And you regard your
position as "not quite sure." Sounds like you're pretty well decided
on it to me."
-----
That's
only because I play the contrarian to get folks like you to rant a bit, and see
where it goes. 😉.
Will respond to the rest later. Will leave this wifi-ed place.
Sing F Lau
SFL:
Your reasoning assumes one thing: Christ's payment of a man's sins covered BOTH
temporal punishment and eternal punishment.
TETH:
My reasoning does not assume this.
=====================
Most certainly it does, since the temporal punishment of hell is completely taken care of by the redemptive work of Christ.
Sing F Lau
SFL:
Eternity DOES NOT begin until the resurrection to eternal glory.
TETH:
Eternity encompasses time.
============
True,
but eternal salvation, when the redeemed is properly and fully glorified DOES
NOT begin until the resurrection unto glory. Until such time eternity in its
fullest sense has not begun. The radical changes that will take place at the
resurrection to glory mark the beginning of the CHANGELESSNESS of eternity.
Sing F Lau
TETH: "The warning takes the form of "Don't forget that sin makes a man worthy of
hell, and that your salvation from such is utterly by grace. It follows that
you should not be a practitioner of damnable things."
================
Read
the relevant passages again.
In
the sermon on the mount, the Lord Jesus Christ was addressing the DISCIPLES...
Mt 5:29,30.
In
Christ's words to the disciples, hell is a real danger to them, and they must do
all they can to avoid it. There is a real danger they can end up in hell, and there
is ALSO something they can and must do to avoid that.
With
the lake of fire, it is completely different. Christ does not waste time
warning them of the lake of fire; there is absolutely no possibility,
whatsoever, of His redeemed ending up in the lake of fire.
"And
whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire." This statement is quite definitive and self-explanatory.
Prejudiced minds are not ready to draw out the plain and necessary implications
of the statement.
Christ's
work of redemption saved His redeemed from that eternity in the lake of fire.
He came to redeem those whose names were written in the Book of life;
those written in the Book of life were spared from the lake of fire.
Maybe I'm a little naive and simple to draw such a conclusion. Tell me, what do you
conclude from that statement.
Sing F Lau
SFL:
At the appointed time, even hell MUST deliver up Christ's redeemed ones. For the
love of God in Jesus Christ SAVED His children from the lake of fire - that's
what I read. What do you read?
TETH:
What I read is that hell goes into the lake of fire. The occupants of hell
become the occupants of the lake.
=============
Here
are the Scriptures:
13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up
the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their
works.
14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake
of fire.
It
is stated that hell delivered up its prisoners, and the EMPTIED hell is cast
into the lake of fire, of which the redeemed have no part whatsoever.
What's
the point of hell delivering up its captives if the occupants of hell
become the occupants of the lake of snow! I hear you say, to stand for
judgment!
The
statement "and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" is one
of the greatest comforts to God's children, and Christ's redeemed who foolishly
got themselves ended in hell. Death and hell shall be NO MORE; they are NOT eternal - what comfort
and relief for such.
Rev
20:14 speaks of the SECOND death. What do you think is the FIRST death in the
same context! May be better to start a separate thread on this topic.
Sing F Lau
SFL:
And I read that hell is NOT eternal.
TETH:
Where? It says it is cast into the lake of fire. The devil is cast into the
lake of fire as well where he shall be tormented day and night for ever and
ever. (Revelation 20:10) Does the devil cease to exist when thrown into the
lake of fire? By your logic one could say, "'ever" implies time, thus
the eternity of the lake of fire is not eternal but temporal as well.
=================
I
read plain words stating that hell delivered up those in it, and the empty hell
is cast into the lake of fire. That's the end of hell as far as its prisoners
are concerned; none will be in it beyond the point in time when it delivered up
its prisoners. I just assume that there is no one left in hell when hell was
cast into the lake of fire.
But
if you wish to twist what I plainly meant, that's fine. 😉
Sing F Lau
SFL:
It shall be emptied at the appointed time.
TETH:
Read more closely, Hell is thrown into the Lake, not emptied with some of its
occupants going to heaven and others to the lake.
=================
[At the general resurrection, hell shall deliver up the SPIRITS of the dead held captives in it; these spirits shall then be united with their bodies; Christ's redeemed ones among them shall be glorified and enter into their eternal inheritance; the rest shall be cast into the lake of fire. After the resurrection, all of Christ's redeemed shall enter heaven, their eternal inheritance.]
When
I use the word "emptied", my point was to show that hell CEASED in
its relevance at the end of time; none will be found in it.
Inspired
Scriptures uses the word "delivered." A study of this word may shed
some interesting light.
The
significance of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire is SIMPLY THIS:
they are forever removed from God's redeemed. They shall never ever harass
the redeemed. There is no need to drain the good news of that statement.
Sing F Lau
SFL:
2Cor 5:8 is a great comfort to those who lived and died like the apostle Paul. Amen
and amen.
TETH:
No such qualification exists in Paul's comments. You are suggesting that what
Paul meant was, "For folks like me, we'll go to be with the Lord, but you
loser-Christians, you'll be in hell for a while." Consider this, if Paul
considered himself the chief of sinners (I Timothy 1:15), how could anyone be
found to be a greater sinner than he such that he could be sent to God's Loving
Hell?
====================
I'm
suggesting nothing. I take it for granted that the distinction between the first-person plural "we" (referring to Apostle Paul and his companions"
and the second-person plural "you" (referring to the Corinthians
believers) is plain enough, from the very beginning of the epistles. If that
distinction is not respected, then so much of the epistles become meaningless.
Read
it and see.
That's
probably all from your long post.
If
I have missed out on anything, please alert me.
Sing F Lau
TETH:
Brother Sing, you should leave your fanciful doctrine of "God's Loving
Hell" on the pile of addled thinking where it belongs, IMO.
===========
I
will just leave this patronizing dig alone 😉 😉 😉
What
is God's Loving Hell doctrine? I would appreciate it if you explain it.
[some white men can be very patronizing!]
Sing F Lau
You
have written a whole lot... much of it just repeating and spinning the same
thing - speaking objectively.
You
attribute to me these things:
1.
God loves the elect.
2.
God’s love for them is immutable.
3.
They cannot be separated from God’s love for them.
4.
God sends some of the elect to hell after they die.
5.
God, therefore, loves them while they are enduring the torment of hell.
Misrepresenting
my view does not advance your opinion, it just downgrades your credibility, 😉
These
are what I believe, just going along with your form of words.
God
loves the elect. God’s love for them is immutable, which is why even though
their foolishness landed them in hell, God will deliver them from it, and
glorify them.
-
God gave His Son Jesus Christ to save them from their eternal damnation in the
lake of fire.
Christ
came to save them from the lake of fire, not hell. Christ came to save those
whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of life, thus from the lake of fire.
The Scriptures says, "And whosoever was not found written in the Book of
life was cast into the lake of fire," and NOT "And whosoever was not
found written in the book of life was cast into hell." The latter is a
fiction repudiated by Christ, by His solemn warning to the elect of the reality
of hell, and the real danger of them landing up in hell. Christ was not
jesting, nor wasting time warning against the fictional danger of hell for the
elect.
Christ
DIDN'T save them from hell. He DID save them from their eternity in the lake of
fire. Plain statement in Rev 20:15. Twist and roll and gyrate all one can, it doesn't
change those plain words.
There
must be a reason why there isn't a single warning to the elect of them ending
up in the lake of fire, and many warnings to them against the real danger of
them ending up in hell, unless you take Christ as jesting about hell to the
elect.
You
misrepresented me by saying that God sends some of the elect to hell after
they die. They were warned solemnly of going there by their own disobedience.
Misrepresentation does not advance the cause of truth - you think otherwise.
God's
love for His elect did not cease when His elect landed themselves in hell. At the
appointed time, hell shall deliver them up, to be glorified, as God had
purposed from eternity. Nothing shall separate the elect from the love of God
in Christ, not even death, nor hell. Indeed.
You
are not as objective as I had thought. ;-(
Sing F Lau
TETH,
you may wish to prove that the elect who ended up in hell, i.e. they were cast
into hell because they ignored the solemn warnings, and were eventually delivered
up at the appointed time for the resurrection unto eternal glory, has been
separated from the love of God in Jesus Christ.
---------
The
love of God in Jesus Christ saved the elect from the lake of fire.
Show
that any of the elect is left in the lake of fire, and you will have proven that an
elect has been separated from the love of God in Christ. It is just that easy.
No,
neither death nor hell can separate them from the love of God. Hell delivered
them up, and they were glorified. The complete opposite of what you WILL to
view it. That's your problem.
I
have just proven the falsity of one of your points. That should suffice.
The
rest is a rehashing of the things I have commented on.
Good night, Brother.
Robert
Cook Sr.
Sing
F Lau, we had this discussion a couple of years ago! and it will end the same
way; you in your corner and TETH in his. The issue to me is very simple, God is
Holy and will consume sinners in His eternal wrath (Rev20:15), God loves His
elect and has perfected them forever (Hebrews 10:14). Get it perfected! When
they die there is no further need of Chastisement (Duet 32:50) since we will be
changed in an instant in the twinkling of an eye (1Corinthians15:17) and this
vile body that has be decaying in the ground will be made glorious like unto
His own body (1Thessalonians4:14). Your error seems to rest on the need for
further correction before entering glory to finish work Christ did not!
(Hebrews12:23), Just men are made perfect. 🙂 And I love brother Sing F
Lau, very much he has been a great help to me.
Sing F Lau
We
can either make sense of all the solemn warnings against hell addressed to the
disciples, or dismiss them as irrelevant to them.
I
don't see it as a FURTHER need for correction; the correction was not imposed
before.
Christ's
work delivered His redeemed ones from the lake of fire. So, the idea that further
correction is needed to FINISH the work of Christ is just fiction.
Robert
Cook Sr.
Sing
if not further correction or Chastisement of children for the purpose of
correction the only option left is payment for sin because is Holy, as I see
it!
Robert
Cook Sr.
"But
I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed
hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." The
construction of the context and the verse itself is teaching that the God who
cares for you is greater than any man whom you may be fearful of. Hence the
middle portion does not say "Cast ye into hell" but has the power
over all men to cast the most arrogant fierce angry man into hell, hence fear
your God and not what man can do unto you! that is how I see it Sing F Lau
whether you want to or not this is how our Lord intended it to be understood.
Sing F Lau
The
distinction between temporal judgment and eternal judgment is helpful here.
Christ's
redemptive work secured eternal salvation, and deliverance from eternal fire. That
explains the corollary of the plain statement, those whose names were written in
the Book of life were delivered from the lake of fire.
The
way you explain away the reality of hell for the disciples is subtle. If there
is no possibility of the disciples ending up in hell, that warning is entirely
nonsensical.
"Fear
such a one, lest you be cast into hell." The way you explain it, it might
as well be, "For I comfort you, you need not fear him who has the power to
cast you into hell, because such a thing can never happen to you. I'm just
jesting with you."
There isn't a single warning to the disciples against the danger of the lake of fire for the SIMPLE reason that such is an impossibility with them. But hell, yes, often, and solemnly.
Robert
Cook Sr.
Sing
F Lau You put this in "Fear such a one, lest you be cast into
hell." can you tell me where this is found?
Robert
Cook Sr.
It
is simply a teaching that the greater power (GOD) has much more power than
those that would be your enemy hence the admonition " Fear ye not
therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." the fearing is not of
the place but of the person, by comparison.
Sing F Lau
This
is the text:
"But
I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed
hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."
This
is your understanding:
"The
construction of the context and the verse itself is teaching that the God who
cares for you is greater than any man whom you may be fearful of. Hence the
middle portion does not say "Cast ye into hell" but has the power
over all men to cast the most arrogant fierce angry man into hell, hence fear
your God and not what man can do unto you! that is how I see it Sing F Lau
whether you want to or not this is how our Lord intended it to be understood."
========================
This
is my understanding:
Mt
10
27
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the
ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but
rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Who
to fear - Men or God?
1.
If you fear man, and thus disobey God, this will happen:
-
you will suffer the displeasure of him who is able to destroy both your soul
and body in hell.
2.
If you fear God, and thus disobey man, this happens:
-
you will suffer the displeasure of men who is only able to kill the body.
(You
would say, "No need to fear men because God can destroy both their body
and soul in hell! That's a smart twist, indeed!)
Choose
this day who you will fear, and live with the just consequences.
Too
simplistic and naive for you, and many others.
Sing F Lau
You
put this in " Fear such a one, lest you be cast into hell." can
you tell me where this is found?
==========
Thanks for pointing this out. Not quoting from anywhere...
Robert
Cook Sr.
Why
did you mention it then? The NIV gets close to this kind of translation, re you
using the NIV? I would be shocked! I can see why the Catholics would need this
kind of language using the Westcott and Hort texts.
Robert
Cook Sr.
Young's
puts it this way, "but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who,
after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to
you, Fear ye Him." The comparison in not between places but between the
greater power.
Sing F Lau
Thanks, TETH for your very lengthy reply.
I
stand by my words that you have misrepresented (perhaps twisting would be a
proper term) what I stated. Probably that's the point you are defending
yourself so vigorously.
It
started here, I believe.
===================
SFL:
What is God's Loving Hell doctrine? I would appreciate if you explain it.
TETH:
It’s nothing less than the doctrine you teach.
1.
God loves the elect.
2.
God’s love for them is immutable.
3.
They cannot be separated from God’s love for them.
4.
God sends some of the elect to hell after they die.
5.
God therefore loves them while they are enduring the torment of hell.
TETH:
It follows that what you believe is “The Doctrine of God’s Loving Hell for the
Elect.” That may be hard to look at, but you gotta own it, cause if that’s what
you believe then it is without controversy an accurate moniker for your
doctrine.
==================
The
nice monkey you invented is a calculated perversion of what I said.
You
have conceded that the elect ending in hell does not constitute being separated
from the love of God in Christ, Rom 8:31-39.
You
quoted Mt 10:28.
"And
fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but
rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
It
seems very strange to me that one can quote this Scripture and yet dismiss the
possibility that God's children are being destroyed both body and soul in hell
prior to their eternal glorification. Turn this solemn warning, and all others,
addressed to the disciples, into an irrelevant shibboleth.
The
way 4. is worded implies God's arbitrariness. Their own actions send them to
hell, having been solemnly and amply warned against it, and they suffer the
temporal judgment there.
Keep
your comment short.
Sing F Lau
TETH,
it is quite strange that you should accuse me of denying saying that some elect
will end up in hell because of their wickedness. I have stated this at the very
beginning of the thread. That's the whole intention of the commentary on the
few verses of Rev 20:11-15.
It
is the spin and twist you put to it that I objected to. So, you are barking up the
wrong tree.
Sing F Lau
TETH,
you make me chuckle again at your moniker.
If
you believe the moniker is accurate, then I will let it be. Just insist on it
long enough, and it shall be.
However,
for the record, I don't believe in God's Loving Hell, or anything convey by
those words.
I
do believe that the wicked children of God do end up in hell.
There
are ample warnings. Christ's redemption saved the elect from the lake of fire,
not hell. This explains why, on the one hand, there is ample warning against
hell; and on the other, there is no warning against the lake of fire at all,
for no elect will go there.
I
do find it incredibly strange that warnings of hell are believed to be directed
at those who will INEVITABLY go there; or at those who have NO POSSIBILITY of
going there. In both cases, those solemn warnings have been equally wasted.
You
can go and spin what you want from these.
Thank you for your invigorating exchange.
