"by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness."
Initially posted here:
September 15, 2014
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10202822304654161
It takes just a slight sleight to pervert a
biblical truth into a fable...
"by the sleight of men, and cunning
craftiness."
Paul warns of this reality:
"That we henceforth be no more children,
tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the
sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to
deceive..."
A man said, “The Calvinist belief in
perseverance is not supported by the tenets of TULIP rather a modification of
the tenets.”
++++++
My comment:
The above charge is most certainly true:
Under TULIP, the P states and declares the
IMMUTABILITY of the effectually called REMAINING in the state of grace to which
they have been once effectually called. That is, the divine grace that
effectually called them out of their native state of sin and death unto that of
grace and salvation is a grace that accomplishes it immutably... the called
ones SHALL FOREVER and IMMUTABLY remain in that state of grace... absolutely
nothing can undo that!
It says NOTHING about the children of God
doing anything, or remaining in a life of faith and holiness, much less
anything about the degrees of doing so.
Sing F Lau
"Those whom God hath accepted in the
beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious
faith of His elect unto [i.e. the state of grace], can neither totally nor
finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere THEREIN to
the end, and be eternally saved....."
THEREIN refers to the STATE OF GRACE into
which they have been called.
It declares the permanency and immutability
of remaining in that state of grace - as a result of the divine effectual
calling.
Bill Taylor
Amen!
Robert Cook Sr.
excellent picture to tell the story!! 🙂
Richard-Carol Schilling
Are we saying that Christians don't commit
suicide? Psychology in the Church these days gives professing Christians a pass
in the case of deep depression! Something doesn't match...
Sing F Lau
R-C S, how is your question related to the
subject? What happens when Christians commit suicide?
Richard-Carol Schilling
You say, "His elect unto [i.e. the state
of grace], can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but
shall certainly persevere THEREIN to the end" If Perseverance of the
saints is true, what position do current day Christians hold with regards
suicide? Do we give professing Christians a pass and say, as psychology would
interpret, they were suffering a severe depression?
Robert Cook Sr.
Not only can the commit Suicide they can
become idolators and fornicators and murders liars etc. etc. etc the old man
still has a life also.
Sing F Lau
R-C S, so do you believe a man whom God has
effectually called out of his native state of sin and death into that state of
grace and salvation, CAN by some foolish acts of his, fall out of that state of
grace and salvation back into his native state of sin and death? I'm just
asking to know what you do believe. I'm not assuming anything. So, if you are
so kind, please answer my simple question. Thanks.
Richard-Carol Schilling
Sir, we asked your opinion first. I am firmly
grounded in what I believe the Scriptures teach and will share it with you
after you share your point of view.
Sing F
Lau
You want my opinion? LOL - what for? My
opinion is of no value to you!Every Tom , Hick, and Mary claims he/she is
firmly grounded in what he/she believes the Scriptures teach!
Ante
Zivkovic
In Calvinism regeneration is best described
through Borg analogy. These are not born again but rather assimilated by Holy
spirit and then they grow in holiness , always in an upward spiral and in the
process make the bible redundant since the warnings to not apply to them.
Richard-Carol Schilling
Robert Cook, how does your statement:
"Not only can the commit Suicide they can become idolators and fornicators
and murders liars etc." coincide with " DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor
thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners WILL
INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. And such WERE some of you. But you WERE washed, but
you WERE sanctified, but you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and
by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 6:9-11)? What do you say to: " For
you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Colossians 3:3) We
understand it to mean that we are still in the flesh, though a new nature is
imparted to the true believer and the old man is dead, not dying, not hanging
on to us.
Sing F Lau--we were just curious to know what
others on this page thought about the application of a doctrinal point to which
you made reference. Our opinion is no better than yours, so what does the Bible
teach about the suicide?
Sing F Lau
R-C S @ "" DO NOT BE DECEIVED.
Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor
sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD."
============
THE KINGDOM OF GOD - many read those words to
mean THE HEAVEN!!! Paying attention to the distinction between the kingdom of
God and the heaven may help in rightly dividing the word of truth.
The application of the doctrinal point to
which I made reference is this: nothing a child of God - a man whom God has
called out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation
- does or fails to do can ever dislodge him from that state of grace and
salvation into which God has called him. Period.
And here is the statement of truth:
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord
Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto
a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and
undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through
faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are
without repentance.
And yes, it is completely possible for a
child of God to foolishly take his own life. And no, a child of God CANNOT undo
the work of eternal salvation God has accomplished in/for him. That doesn't
mean he can't foolishly mess up his life big time - the Scriptures constantly
warn God's children against such.
That's my opinion if it is worth anything to
you.
Richard-Carol Schilling
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Sing F
Lau.
It is our turn to share our thoughts on the
recent post and comment on suicide among Christians. It has become popular in a
day and age of psychology, but the Scriptures should rather be our source of
authority on this matter, so I will share a few Scriptures to back our
position.
"By which also you are saved, if you
hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you BELIEVED IN VAIN."
(1 Corinthians 15:2)
"For we have become partakers of Christ
IF we hold the beginning of our CONFIDENCE STEDFAST TO THE END," (Hebrews
3:14)
"who are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5)
"These all died IN FAITH, not having
received the promises..." (Hebrews 11:13)
WITHOUT FAITH it is impossible to please
Him... (hebrews 11:6)
“But when a righteous man turns away from his
righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations
that the wicked man does, shall he live? ALL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS
DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty
and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die...When a
righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in
it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies."
(Ezekiel 18:24, 26)
Suicide is not only selfish, but for one
professing to be a Christian, it is the ultimate despairing of FAITH in God's
veracity and His unfailing promises. Can anyone see perseverance t o the end
here? What does perseverance of the saints mean? Are we just intellectualizing
or pontificating on this page? What is the application of that doctrine to the
Christian walk or life?
"No temptation (not even suicide) has
overtaken you except such as is common to man; but (FIRST) God is faithful, who
WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE WHAT YOU ARE ABLE, but (SECOND) with the
temptation WILL ALSO MAKE THE WAY OF ESCAPE, that you may be able to bear
it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)
There are multitudes of false professors out
there. This is the background from which we both have come and are grieved at
the lowering of the standards in the church to make everyone feel good about
themselves while they live in sin!
For this you know, that NO fornicator,
unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in
the kingdom of Christ and God. (Ephesians 5:5)
Richard-Carol Schilling
Thank you for the opportunity to share...
Sing F
Lau
No thanks to your RANTING!
The devil can quote Scriptures quite well too
but he can hardly rightly divide the word of truth.
Richard-Carol Schilling
Gad, can weigh in on this?
Charles Church
I've had to think about this quite a bit,
mainly because I'm not sure what Mr. Lau is saying. So I'll approach it this
way if I may.... Mr. Lau, IF you are saying that sanctification is not
something guaranteed to the children of God, if you are saying that it cannot
be a necessary consequence of justification, and may be there or may not be,
then IF you are saying that, I would aver that that is a wicked heresy of the
highest order.
The
salvation which the Scriptures reveal is a salvation not just from the judgment
of sin, but from the power of sin. The former by justification, and the latter
by sanctification, and both of those departments of "subjective
soteriology" are things overtly and expressly guranteed to each believer
in Jesus. "Of HIM are ye in Christ Jesus, who OF GOD is made unto us
wisdom, righteousness, SANCTIFICATION and redemption, that no flesh should
glory in his presence, but as it is written, he that glorieth, let him glory in
the Lord". ICor.1:30-31.
So IF I understand you rightly you are saying
that these blessings of salvation which this verse of inspired scripture teach
us are dependent only upon the purpose of God given to EACH believer, are in
fact dependent upon men. True believers may certainly sin, and their sin will
not condemn them when they do. But how does this translate into no
sanctification? No deliverance from the POWER of sin? True Complete deliverance
comes in the resurrection. But none of that changes this verse. Nor does it
change a great host of others, such as ...
ICor.6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Eph. 5:5 For this ye know, that no
whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any
inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with
vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the
children of disobedience.7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Gal.5:19 Now the works of the flesh are
manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such
like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,
that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Charles Church
I would hasten to add, however, that I guess
I am going to have to dissent from your view, Richard, that suicide necessarily
means that one is lost. I do believe there is such a thing as actions for which
people are not responsible. Like if someone gets an infection in his brain and
starts raving and commits some sin in the process who was never known for such
behavior ever. I have been around enough depression to have the opinion that
depression is a disease of the brain, and is a malfunction no different than
having a broken leg, and that accordingly we would not more ascribe the blame
to such a person's failures as equal to those of others, than we would say a
man was at falut for not helping an imperiled friend when he was paralyzed.
Now.... that appeals to experience, and that is certainly no safe measure. And
there IS this scripture: "We know that no murderer hath eternal life
abiding in him". But as we know from a hundred other instances, not all
killing is murder, and a host of factors have to be present in order for it to
constitute this criminal character. I hope this will not grieve you, but I'm
just trying to be transparent. The principle you defend I could not agree with
more, as I'm sure you will see from above.
Sing F Lau
hello Gad, if you cannot distinguish the
kingdom of God from the eternal heaven, it is best to speak cautiously. Thanks.
Charles Church
Well..... I'm not even sure I've properly
understood you yet, Sing, and that may just be my own dullness, or perhaps your
commentary is a bit unclear. And again... I don't really understand what you
mean by distinguishing between the kingdom of God and the "eternal
heavens". One thing that I know for sure... those who won't repent go to
hell. "Except ye repent, ye shall ALL likewise perish".
Sing F Lau
Charles Church, "Except ye repent, ye
shall all likewise perish..."
------
Soundbytitis is a dread disease. It cripples
men's ability of rightly dividing the word of truth to get the sense.
13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Did you note the word LIKEWISE... LIKEWISE...
LIKEWISE. How did the Galileans perish? They perish by suffering BLOODY and
CRUEL death. That's the destruction spoken of. It has nothing about gaining
eternal life or perishing to hell. And it is pretty plain that only that who
are ALREADY BEEN GIVEN eternal life that are able to believe.
But almost every one believes that this
passage speaks about eternal salvation or eternal destruction! All blind
leading the blind!
Luke 13:1-5 speaks of perishing in calamities, not about perishing in eternal hell. People perished in disasters. The Jews were warned that they would LIKEWISE perish if they repent not. Christ was warning them that they would LIKEWISE - LIKEWISE - LIKEWISE perish under the hands of the Romans in the coming destruction of Jerusalem. If they do believe, then they would take heed of Christ's warning about the impending destruction coming upon Jerusalem in 70AD!
