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| "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." do you understand? Except a man be born again, he remains DEAD in trespasses and sins, completely unable to fulfill any requirement to obtain salvation. Why do you SO HATE Christ's own words? |
I posted these words...
Eternal salvation is NEITHER by your faith in Jesus Christ nor by your works of righteousness. Both are lies of the devil!.
Salvation is
- by the free grace of God alone (the manner salvation is bestowed upon dead condemned sinners personally)
- based upon the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone (the basis and foundation of salvation), and
- is experienced, and evidenced by believing in Jesus Christ.
Faith
in Jesus Christ is an EFFECT or FRUIT of salvation already given to a
sinner. An effect of salvation cannot be the means to obtain that
salvation. This is elementary.
It is helpful to speak distinctly... i.e. rightly dividing the word of truth.
Remember
this injunction: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman
that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Ti
2:15
And the following exchanges took place...
Keith
Amen bro Sing
Ray
Galatians 3:26
'For you are all the children of God by FAITH in Jesus Christ.'
'But without FAITH it is impossible to please Him; for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him' [Hebrews 11:6].
Sing F Lau
Thanks Ray. Now, please tell us what does Gal 3:26 teach you.
I'm not impressed with quoting of Scriptures. You should do better... quote and explain its meaning. The Devil quote Scriptures pretty well too. I assure you I'm not trying to be rude. I'm typing very courteously. (big smile)
Are you saying by Gal 3:26 teaches that a man becomes a child of God by his believing in Christ Jesus? I think the devil would want all to believe that! So, you see quoting Scriptures without spelling out what you want that Scriptures to teach doesn't help us to know what you want to say!
Ray
Your lead statement was, 'Eternal salvation is NEITHER by your faith in Jesus Christ . . . '
While I gave Scripture, from what I can see you minimized the importance of the Word of God by neglecting to back up your ad hoc personal theological conclusions.
What are you trying to say to us in the above quote?
Keith
Faith
is a result of the new birth, not the cause. Gal 5:22. Gal 3:26 speaks
of becoming children by putting on Christ in baptism. It is manifesting
the faith given as the fruit of the Spirit. Discipleship, plain and
simple.
Hulan
Gal.
3:26 is clearly teaching that the Churches of Galatia are no longer
under the O.T. Law or Schoolmaster, but only under and in the Faith of
Jesus Christ who is FAITH Himself. For that matter no one else is still
under the O.T. Laws, who are Born-Again Children of God.Sing F Lau
Ray, you have problem with my lead statement?
You don't believe what's stated? Then you can explain why.
Nothing wrong with you giving Scriptures. What is wrong is quoting Scriptures without saying what it means! It helps when you tell us what Gal 3:26 teaches.
So is Gal 3:26 saying that a man become a child of God by his believing in Christ? Or it is saying what Elder Hulan has said?
Ray
The quote is 'Faith is the result of the new birth and not . . .'
This thought came out of Calvinism and not Scriptural, Holy Spirit guided exegesis. This is presuppositional quasi-theological thinking which came originally from the Roman Catholic Church and many of the Protestant reformers stayed rather close to papal understanding rather that being guided by the precious Holy Spirit of God. Only after 490+ years has some of the evangelical churches grown in faith and have moved away from Calvinism which is only the systematizing of Augustinian theology meaning Roman Catholic theology.
Keith
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,.....Does an apple pop into mid air and then a tree grow in under it? Or does the tree come first and then the fruit?
Ray
This amount of space is poor for discussion. Sing F. Lau needs to suggest a better venue like the Catholic-Protestant-Islam forum.
Keith
Ray. Please consider the last question I asked.
Plenty of space to discuss.
Sing F Lau
Ray, you even have problem with "'Faith is the result of the new birth and not . . .' I'm surprised!
Would you have problem with Christ's statement, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see (perceived spiritual things)... he cannot enter (believes the thing concerning Christ)...
Before a man is quickened, he is spiritually dead. I hope you agree with Paul. A spiritually dead man have no capability to believe. The ability to believe is a result of new birth.
I take it as a GIVEN that spiritual life must precede the activities of that life.... the new birth must precede the activities of that spiritual life, like ability to perceive spiritual things, and believing spiritual things of Christ. If we are not agreed on this, then we are TOO far apart on our basic understanding.
Good night. Need to sleep now.
Hulan
Bro.
Keith, a GREAT BIG AMEN, then Apple is the Result and not the cause. as
in the natural creation, God did not plant seeds but full grown
everything, trees, animals, fish, and humans.Ray
Salvation does not 'pop into mid air nor does the Christian tree grow' and develop 'fruit' Galatians 5:22]without--first saving faith in Jesus [John 1:12]. Good works and the 'fruit of the Spirit' follow faith in Christ which includes repentance of past sins.
Ray
Brother Lau,
You misquoted John 3:3. You added on 'perceived spiritual things' which anyone can read, it is not there. Here is the quote:
'Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verly I say to you, Except a man be born again, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.'
Big difference.
Dellis
Jesus
used an illustration concerning the new birth...If you had no
participation in your earthly birth, you also had no part in your
spiritual birth..In either, you were born, yet in neither did you have a
choice, nor did you work to become a child. "That which is born of the
flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit Ye must be
born again.Sing F Lau
Ray, "Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God...." Seeing is perceiving the truth concerning the kingdom of God. It is elementary, sir. You are just TOOOO obtuse not to see that "perceive spiritual things" is an explanation of "see."
Without seeing the kingdom of God, there can no entering the same kingdom of God.
And both the activities of seeing and entering are EFFECTS of the new birth. It is also elementary.
You must have life first to enable you to see this post, and seeing this post you entered into the discussion. The sad thing is though you have physical sight to see this opening post that started this thread, you did not perceive the spiritual truth stated!!!
So, I didn't misquote John 3:3. You did not want to accept the plain teaching of John 3:3, sir.
Sing F Lau
Ray, "Salvation does not 'pop into mid air "
=========
O yes, there must be Divine popping in your life, otherwise you would still be in your native state of sin and death!!!
Read this and understanding...
Eph 2
2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Charles
"Salvation does 'pop into mid air" we didn't do any popping!!!
Johnny
Looking
at the great men (can't remember if women were included, or not) of
FAITH, each were righteous and thus saved, which is from the Father, and
resulted in the human actions stated, a result of their faith. They
would not have believed in what was not seen, unless God placed in their
hearts, that which caused the action. I concur, with Sing and Elder
Ellis. Man can boast in NOTHING, not THEIR faith, for it is "spiritual,"
and "spiritual" comes only from the Father.Ray
We don't boast in our faith; it is the key that opens the door of Heaven and everlasting life to us [I John 5:12-13].
Repentance accompanies faith which means repentance of our sins, which is hardly boastful. It is a sadness over disobeying the Almighty Lord God.
Johnny
Which
inspired writer said, I boast only in God? Yes, Ray, repent is to turn
from, not just be sorry for sin, or to be "saved," but BECAUSE OF GOD'S
LOVE, GRACE, AND MERCY, and living a life of worship, sin, sijply has no
place, anymore. How can one cotinue in sin, KNOWITH of the grace, that
sent Christ to the Crose, and God forsaking Him. oq x=,Sing F Lau
Ray @ "... our faith; it is the key that opens the door of Heaven and everlasting life to us."
======
Ray, have you ever tried giving the key to awonderful mansion to a dead man, and said, "Sir, this is the key that opens to door into that glorious mansion on Beverly Hills. Use it." If you do believe what you have said, you ought to demonstrate its truthfulness just once for us - that that dead man will take the key and open the door of that mansion. Otherwise, you are just DECEIVING yourself with a PLAIN LIE!!! Just being plain and honest with you - I speak as a Chinese... no beating round the bush type!!!
How do you put faith in the hand of the spiritually dead man, and say, "This is the wonderful key that opens the door of heaven and everlasting life to you. Use it"? May be, you will piggy back him, carry him to the heaven's door, hold his hand (with the key) in your hand, guiding the key in his hand to the keyhole in the heaven's door... and turning his hand to open the heaven's door....and BINGOOOOOOOOOO .... the door opens, and a dazzling beam of light zaps through the opened door from heaven struck him, and the dead man you are piggying is quickened to eternal life.
Is that the scenario, I'm just wondering? Or is it somewhat different? may be you would like to tell us the real scenario. Thanks!
Johnny
@Ray.
I may be confusing the issue, but then again, may be providing the
distinction. At one time, I was under the impression, that a sinner had
to be touched by God through a preacher (hear the gospel), before faith
could come about. Do you make a distinction in the term "Believe" of
John, and the faith, which Sing speaks of. At one time, I did not.Sing F Lau
Johnny, faith is a spiritual virtue worked within a child of God by the indwelling Spirit.
It is that grace which enables a child of God to believe.
Regeneration gives everlasting life to the dead. The Holy Spirit, called the Spirit of adoption is given to dwell in a child of God (a regenerated elect). The indwelling Spirit works all the saving graces (the fruit of the Spirit), including faith. This grace enable a child of God to believe.
Johnny
So,
the yet-to-be-regenerated, and/or, the unregenerate, were "dead," in
what way. If the Holy Spirit indwells in the human, from "before the
foundation of the world," then, "dead" could NOT be, "spiritually" dead,
for such a person, according to God's spiritual being and His time,
ALWAYS are alive. Then, it would not be, physical death, either, and the
dude with God's spirit (or even without), is breathing, and walking
around. I'm just not "up" on what regeneration is, though wish to
understand. It is, a spiritual concept, mentioned specifically, and has
distinct meaning. But, your statement, "gives everlasting life to the
DEAD" puzzles me. I understand, I think, the distinction between faith
(spiritual, agreed, as you said), and belief (a physical, human "good
work" resulting from faith). Yet I simply have not grasped, the
FUNCTION, I suppose, of regeneration in the process, if that is a
spiritual term, of salvation, either here, or later. Thanks for your
help, coming from the Father.Sing F Lau
DEAD in that he is completely incapable of doing anything to bring in himself to God...
In his native state, man is worse than 'dead' - he is positively hostile, and in enmity against God.
A man by nature is dead in trespasses and sins... because of his sinful nature, he is completely unable to do anything to bring himself to be in favor with God... he is positively hostile and in enmity against God.
You believe a FICTION that the Holy Spirit indwells in the human from before the foundation of the world! That fiction has messed up your thinking! And regeneration is an instantaneous act of God in bestowing eternal life to a spiritually dead man.
I'm going out for my MID-night run. It's 11.10PM here.
Ray
The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners of their lost condition. There is no impartation of the Spirit of God to sinners until they yield to Jesus in a faith-trust commitment.
In Revelation 3:20 Jesus knocks at the door of the soul; He does not do a forced entry. He respects the human will. Some reject Jesus [Acts 7:51]. In theology this is called 'Resistible Grace' in counterdistinction to Calvin's 'Irresistible Grace.'
Calvinism is only the systematizing of Roman Catholic Augustinianism.
Sing F Lau
Ray, PLEASE read Rev 3:20 carefully. Those words are addressed to a CHURCH... yes, to a degenerated and lukewarm CHURCH... not the door of a DEAD MAN'S soul like you imagined!!!
If you are interested in discussing Calvin or RC Augustinianism, this is the WRONG PLACE for you.
Here, we are ONLY interested in the Scriptures... because we really mean business when we say Scriptures ALONE. I'm not a calvinist just in case you are mistaken. I have no interest in the Genevan nor the Harlot of Roman.
So I suggest to you that you stick to the Scriptures rightly divided... and don't abuse Scriptures like you had with Rev 3:20.
The Holy Spirit REGENERATES the dead...
The Holy Spirit CONVICTS God's children of their sins and the truth of the salvation by God's free grace... that they may be converted to the truth.
There are deluded men who want to convict those dead men in the caskets!!! You should try that sometimes and see the result!
Ray
Contextually, I knew this was dealing with the church when you were a preteen. I learn this in Bible College in 1961. On the other hand, evangelists often use this verse to invite people to receive Christ as Savior being a sinner. We must open the door; He does not barge into our lives and He will not force the backslider to return to fellowship with Him. He may just providentially chastise said this failing Christian.
What verse or verse do you want to examine.
I believe in Prevenient Grace and not Total Depravity. The two words above are, I think, poorly chosen. No grace enters a sinner until they receive Christ.
What verse are we going to exegete, Pastor Lau?
Sing F Lau
Ray, choose better and more precise words, and we can do what you wish. Pick your choice.
You have abused Rev 3:20, and you still want to justify it.
O yes, I do believe that my gracious and merciful God DID BARGE into my life, freely and sovereignly, without my permission whatsoever... He had to barge into my life... there was no other way to save me... I was dead in trespasses and sin, in enmity and hostility against Him, and would never have been able to give Him the permission!
Haven't you read, or don't you believe the Scriptures????? Or you put your own opinion above the Scriptures? "For men shall be... highminded..." warned Apostle Paul. Highminded men put their opinion above the Bible!
Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins...
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Have ever tried calling out to a dead man in a house to open the door for you to come in to resuscitate him? Have you? Try it next time! Wait for him to open up! Stupid man waits for the dead man to open up the door. Wise and gracious man SMASHES down the door and do the rescue. You SEEM to believe in a little stupid god... My God is infinitely wise...
Ray
Your accusations have been used before by Five Point Calvinists. Beside being dead in sins, you must also factor in Genesis 1:26; 27 and James 3:9 which strongly tells us that all sinners were created 'in the image or similitude of God.'
This means that God can approach the sinner after the Word of God has touched his heart by the mighty working of the Holy Spirit. He convinces and convicts sinners of their need of Christ.
As I mentioned before, some sinner reject the calling of the Lord God as demonstrated in Acts 7:51. Both the Jewish fathers under the O.T. and those son under the New Covenant both rejected Jesus and His calling by the Holy Spirit of God.
Sing F Lau
My accusations????
No, it is my plain reasoning with you. If you can't do simple reasoning, this place isn't for you.
You can factor in anything you want... I go by the biblical declaration... Being made in the image of God makes no difference to a man DEAD in sin.
Joh 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Prevenient grace, even if there is such a fable, is out no use to a man born of flesh!!!
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And you believe otherwise... that dead man made in the image of God can hear and open the door for you to render him some assistance.
I'm only pointing out the stupidity of your notion [you are clever, but your notion is stupid], and show you plainly that the Scriptures declares otherwise.
Ray
You have failed to refute my contention taken from Scripture as to sinners rejecting the call of God in Acts 7:51. This Scripture becomes a bone in your throat that you cannot dislodge.
Sing F Lau
Ray, just what do you expect sinners dead in their trespasses and sins to do? To accept the truth?
And when some sinners do receive the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, what is your explanation? That sinners dead in their trespasses and sins are able to receive the things of the Spirit of God?
I chew bones and crush them and swallow them!!! Ask my wife!!!
Ray
You may be a pastor but you are most definitely not a Bible teacher of truth. You sound like a Primitive Baptist person and not like a Southern Baptist like Dr. Stanley.
Sing F Lau
Ray, you are a free man... choose the bible teachers you like and enjoy! I told you before, I'm a Chinese who loves the Bible. I don't ape the white man! I study the Bible for myself!
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Ray
Does old school Baptist suggest your denomination?
Race has nothing to do with correct theolgy. It does mean we have to bow to the written Word because it comes from the living Word even Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sing F Lau
You are quite mistaken if you think I belong to any denomination. "Old school baptist" is not a denominational label but a term indicative of their theological/doctrinal understanding, and old school baptists were staunchly independent in their church principles.
I mentioned race only because you boast about having to be like so an so in the American SB. I do despise with my whole being the patronizing spirit of the white Christians towards others!
So, if you can't keep to the theological issue at hand, this is not a place for you...
Ray
Don't bring up your religious background if you do not want us to ask about what you meant by 'old school Baptist.' Man up!!
I also favor Assemby of God churches as well as Southern Baptist Churches.
Primative Baptists are false teachers believing that God is autocratic in His choice of who can be saved and who is eternally rejected from His Presence.
I am a Christian and happen to be an American. My ministry is mainly to Nigerians and Pakistani. www.spreadthewordministries.org and I do not take any money for salary; I invest money in our seminaries there.
Sing F Lau
Ray, who brought up religious background first? You brought up the labels of Catholic, protestant, Islam first, then the AoG, SB and PB, didn't you? And you brought them up because you were shown to be woefully deficient as well as irrational in your understanding of Scriptures!
I told you I am a Chinese, and I'm no black, and I don't take patronizing nonsense from any white man. I hope you get the point.
If you want to discuss Bible with your brain switched on, you are welcome to hang around. Otherwise, you are not oblige to stay.
Dellis
In reference to Rev 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
I use this as an example...Matthew 16:15-17
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
( The knock)
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Proof that Peter heard the knock, the profession of faith)
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
( Jesus and Peter supping together) And...flesh and blood did not reveal it, but the Father in heaven....Since it was God who revealed it, it was certainly a spiritual event.
Steve
@Ray said, "Brother Lau, you misquoted John 3:3. You added on 'perceived spiritual things' which anyone can read, it is not there." Here is the quote:
'Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verly I say to you, Except a man be born again, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.'
Big difference.
Ray
I agree with you Mr. Chong; Pastor Lau added on his own words to Scripture, namely, 'perceived spiritual things.'
Big difference that the Greek Biblical reading for John 3:3.
Steve
@Ray ... I was actually quoting your words! And I accidentally posted it before I could ask a question!
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
You said "Big difference" ... my question is, what's the difference??
Sing F Lau
And Ray... I forgot to say... I'm not impressed with "cemeteries" at all... first I very much doubt there is a biblical warrant for such a man made institution. And then it is positively harmful in its work... as a place of indoctrinating and coercing men with the beliefs of that institution, instead of teaching them to study and learn the Bible themselves.
Also, if you wish to pick on the Primitive Baptists, you should go to the right place.
In this place... Scriptures alone. All else is irrelevant.
Steve
@Ray "You have failed to refute my contention taken from Scripture as to sinners rejecting the call of God in Acts 7:51." Ray, what is Acts 7:51 saying?
Ray
You said on your Facebook page you were 'old school Baptist.' I was curious about what you meant and mean by this phrase. No crime has been committed. Are you sure you are an ordained pastor with your attitude? We just want to know the meaning of what you said to all of us.
Ray
Mr. Chong in Acts 7:51 both the O.T. Jews and those who Luke was writing about in the Acts of the Apostles had rejected Jesus even through the convicting and convincing power of the precious Holy Spirit. The Jews remained obstreperous to the Triune Godhead even our Savior Jesus Christ.
Steve
@Ray: Act 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
In the above, isn't it Stephen speaking? Was that the only thing that he said? Or did he start speaking at just about the beginning of the chapter? So, what was he actually saying to the Jews?
Sing F Lau
Ray, what's wrong with my attitude?
When Keith pointed out your obvious error, your retorted, "This amount of space is poor for discussion."
What kind of attitude is that?
Then your patronizing nonsense, " Sing F. Lau needs to suggest a better venue like the Catholic-Protestant-Islam forum."
And when you were shown your errors, you call names... Calvinism and Primitive Baptists... derogatorily! And who brought up denominational issues? You did!
What kind of attitude is that? INSTEAD OWNING UP to one's obvious errors instead of speaking about attitudes!!! You are a great joker!
I told you many times now.... if you can't put on your brain and stick to the Scriptures, this place is NOT for you. Go and find a place where its attitude suits you, Sir - said with due courtesy.
Steve
@Ray -- "I also favor Assemby of God churches as well as Southern Baptist Churches." --
Sounds like you're into denominations?? Why Assembly of God??
-- "I am a Christian and happen to be an American. My ministry is mainly to Nigerians and Pakistani. www.spreadthewordministries.org and I do not take any money for salary; I invest money in our seminaries there." --
What's the purpose of saying that you do not take any money for salary and that you invest money in those seminaries?
[This Ray loves boasting about himself... Men shall be boasters... sing]
Sing F Lau
Ray , you asked the question, "Does old school Baptist suggest your denomination?"
You think and operate in denominational term... You assume the description "old school baptist" is a denominational term. I explained to you that the term "old school baptist" is descriptive of the theological/doctrinal beliefs of those baptists. And what was your reaction to that?
Your arrogant and patronizing spirit is betrayed here in this response "Don't bring up your religious background if you do not want us to ask about what you meant by 'old school Baptist.' Man up!!"
Who brought up religious background? You did, sir!
And you did that because your understanding of Scriptures is shown to be irrational and woefully deficient! And you are TOOOOOOOOOOOOO highminded to admit it!
And I repeat, if you can't put on your brain and stick to the Scriptures, this place is NOT for you.
Ray
Baptist can be Primative Baptists who are five point Calvinists or the Southern Baptists who are four point Arminians. So to most of us 'old school Baptist's means nothing. That is why I asked. What is your thinking about those doctrinal issues.
If you want to discuss a particular verse or passage let me know.
Sing F Lau
You have raised passages and twisted them, and you won't even admit the irrationality and inconsistencies of your interpretation. Get them straighten out first.
Your basic premise is this: the activities of a dead man brings life to him; i.e. the activities of a man secures for him his salvation.
My basic premise is this: life must be given to a dead man before he can perform the activities of that life; i.e. eternal life must be bestowed to a spiritually dead man before he can even perceived spiritual things and believe.
And this premise is founded upon the declaration of Christ: "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." You reject this basic premise.
So, until we can settle BASIC and ELEMENTARY issue, there is nothing to discuss.
Samuel
God's grace is freely given to those who believe [repent] of their unbelief. Its nothing compicated or philosophical, its the faith of a child that leads men and women alike to Faith in JESUS Christ for salation for their souls.
I think what's missing is the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation, Holy Spirit convicts and further imprints the seriousness of our sinnership so that we leave our guilt at the Cross of JESUS and accept God's free gift, which leads to the salvation of our soul.
Thank you JESUS.
Samuel
I believe this is the point, Brother Ray Berrian is making -He says that even though we are dead in tresspasses and sins, we are[still] made in GOD's image -in our emotions and attitudes we exercise,
in the right manner and GOD-honoring? No and never was because of our love for sin and arrogant attitude.
However when the Holy Spirit convicts and shows a sinner his need for a Savior than by choice -thinking turns into actions- His faith in JESUS saves him.
Holy Spirit still works and therefore pops in the hearts and spirits of wicked men and women, through prayer and witnessing opportunities we exercise towards these people.
Marty
[John 10:24] Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
The cause is "ye are not of my sheep". The effect is "ye believe not". A human being who is not one of the sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ does not have the desire or ability to believe, and such humans do exist.
Regeneration comes first; faith comes as a result of regeneration; belief is an exercise of faith. Thus, anyone who believes has already been previously born of the Spirit, as taught in John 5:24.
Marty
[Romans 8:30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Regardless of what one may think "foreknowledge" and "predesitnation" involve, here is something clearly taught in Romans 8:30 - all whom God calls are justified, and all whom are justified are glorified.
If, on the day of the general resurrection, an individual is not glorified, then God never called that individual.
Samuel
Thank you for clarifying Marty. I needed that guidance.
Ray
Exactly, Mr. Francisco. Good thoughts and Biblical, therefore, from the Lord.
Sing F Lau
Samuel, you are no less confused and misguided than Ray, which explains why he exclaimed "Exactly." For fear that Ray becomes more entrenched in his errors by your thoughts, i will now show that your comments are hardly biblical and quite erroneous! Ray needs as much guidance as you do... at least you are humble enough to admit it... but Ray is just tooooo highminded - I wish his exclamation 'exactly' was with respect your confession of needing guidance!
You wrote:
"I believe this is the point, Brother Ray Berrian is making -He says that even though we are dead in tresspasses and sins, we are[still] made in GOD's image - in our emotions and attitudes we exercise, in the right manner and GOD-honoring?..."
Samuel, you are believing the sweet lie of the devil that a man dead in trespasses and sins is capable of exercising his emotions and attitudes in the right manner and God-honoring way. [The fact that he is made in the image of God DOES NOT ALTER the matter one-tittle!]
The Scriptures declare thus about man by nature (dead in trespasses and sins):
- "There is none righteous, no, not one... There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God... There is no fear of God before their eyes." Rom 3:11-18
- "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God..." Rom 5:10
- "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom 8:7.
The Scriptures repudiate your fiction!! You believe a fable! Your diagnosis of man in his native state of sin and death is completely fictional, and biblical. Ray has the same problem. His is spiritually dead man can perform acts in order to be saved by God!
You said,
"No and never was because of our love for sin and arrogant attitude."
I can't make any sense of what you mean by this sentence.
You said,
"However when the Holy Spirit convicts and shows a sinner his need for a Savior than by choice - thinking turns into actions- His faith in JESUS saves him. Holy Spirit still works and therefore pops in the hearts and spirits of wicked men and women, through prayer and witnessing opportunities we exercise towards these people."
Samuel, there is one GREAT OMISSION - the Holy Spirit must REGENERATES them dead in trespasses and sins first. The dead must be brought to life first. Christ said, "EXCEPT a man be born again, he CANNOT..." PERIOD. Except a man be again, no amount of conviction and demonstration will have any effect upon the dead in trespasses and sins. Only those that have been born again is capable of being shown their glorious Savior, and capable of SEEING (i.e. perceiving the truth of their salvation by God's free grace), and ENTERING (making the decision to believe in Jesus as the Christ.
So, yes, the Holy Spirit works freely and sovereignly to REGENERATE sinners dead in trespasses and sins. And He does this work of regeneration WITHOUT your prayers and without your witnessing towards these people. Yes, through His Spirit, God freely POP POP POP salvation to sinners under the condemnation of sin and death!!!
The Lord Jesus declares how His Spirit works in regeneration, " 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" - yes, WITHOUT your prayers and without your witnessing towards these people. Every child of God is regenerated by the Spirit of God SOVEREIGNLY and FREELY without man's help.
Ray needs as much guidance as you do...
Ray
All Mr. Lau has is a tad of Biblical knowledge and he tries to suggest that he has a perfect understanding of Scripture. I can take on any theologian in a debate and use only 1/3rd of my brain and still win the discussion if he or she is giving a wrong exegesis. I have studied in Calvinistic and Arminian seminaries and I know all the angles of thought.
Sing F Lau
'Perilous times shall come... for men shall be boasters...." Apostle Paul warned.
Ray is a great theologian who can't even get Rev 3:20 right, but he boasts up to the third heaven!
That's the whole problem... Ray went to "cemeteries" and came out brain dead and not knowing it!!! Nothing seminal about that at all... just brain dead! ;-)
Seriously Ray, you can boast and practice your patronizing nonsense in Africa and Pakistan, and anywhere else you like, but not here. ... I'm a student of Jesus Christ, and I don't entertain nor tolerate such here.
Ray
Is this the best you can do being an uneducated man in the Holy Scriptures. And by the way I took two courses in Advanced Hermaneutics with 300+ Q & A in each course. I know how to exegete Holy Scripture. This surpasses the abilities of a small town pastor; this is just so you understand the difference.
If you were spoon fed only Total Depravity and Unconditional Election then that is all you can prattle. I understand your extreme limitations.
Your defensiveness is obvious with words like, ' . . . Ray went to "cemeteries" and came out brain dead and not knowing it!!!
Study Mr. Lau; this is the key to correct interpretation of the Word of God.
Sing F Lau
Ray, you have very very impressive credentials, probably the most learned man this village pastor have ever met! Thanks for revealing your credentials. I can't claim any... I'm not even a small town pastor... just a village preacher.
Cemeteries brainwash their students and cripple their studying, and learning ability... as well as puff them up with pride... like the way you messed up Rev 3:20; like the way you are incapable of getting the sense and grave implications of Christ's words in John 3:3,6.
And you are much to proud to admit your errors!
Apostle Paul said,
"Men shall be ... ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
You are a classic example. Your Advance Hismannewticks (Hermeneutics) did not help you to rightly divide Rev 3:20!!!
2Ti 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Hulan
Rev. 3:20 is written to a Luke Warm Church, not to a dead alien unregenerated sinner. Supping together is for the already ALIVE person. We don't sup or eat "in order to" get life.
Sing F Lau
Hulan, thank you for such simple truth that a village preacher can understand!
Did you take more than two courses in Advanced Hermeneutics?
Why Ray did two courses in Advanced Hismannewticks but can't get it right!!! ;-)
Good night! It's just past midnight here.
Ray
I am glad I had the opportunity to study. Thanks be to God that He can receive all the glory. I am like a speck of dust in His sight but have been given special gifts to exegete Scripture.
Your ministry is not little in the sight of the Lord or me. You work is very important.
Even the little that we do for Him is much when God is in our ministries. Enjoy your ministry and keep studying what other expositors of the Word have to say.
Hulan
Bro. Sing Lau, according to the K.J.T. we are Brothers in Christ, and just Mr.
[Ah, if I don't consider Ray a brother in Christ, I won't be practicing James 5:19-20, sing.
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.]
Ray
Yes, Hulan, we are brothers in the Lord and each of us is important in His sight.
Samuel
It is funny, the detailed analytics of Brother Lau they just aggravate a simple truth that cannot get any simpler, I understand the importance of details yet when it comes to salvation its as opening a door, drinking a cup of water, tying your shoes, e...See More
Hulan
The texts being employed to defend “salvation” is not “rightly divided.”
The TRUTH IS – these texts about little children are not addressing ETERNAL Salvation, but TIMELY Salvation (Deliverance) by the GOSPEL, and the Kingdom herein is the CHURCH ON EARTH. So far as little children, even new-born babies are NOT necessarily, in fact, few are born-again at their early age, as is declared clearly in Psalms 51:5; 58:3; You can be grown 30, 50, 80 whatever and still be ignorant, without proper knowledge and understanding, as a child on milk – still – 1st Cor. 2:14—16; 3:1-3; Heb. 5:12—14. Next, the word “Kingdom” in the K.J.T. has many different applications in each different context, and most are that of the CHURCH ON EARTH, Gospel and Timely. HEAVEN and the KINGDOM thereof are contextually different, mostly, There are applications of Kingdom meaning, Born-again, or, with proper knowledge, joining the Church on Earth as many are still in their gospel and timely ignorance – Rom. 10:1—4, and then finally, here is a clear Eternal Context – Matt. 25:31—34 that we Inherit. Yet, while we sojourn on earth there is a phase of the Kingdom we PRESS INTO - Luke 16:16 which we are appointed – Luke 22:29. Now please always RIGHTLY DIVIDE each context.
[Hulan, your PB lingo is incomprehensible to Ray, LOL]
Ray
Salvation is as simple as saying yes to Jesus and following Him by living a life of holiness. What says Isaiah 35:8?
' . . . the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.'
Ray
Mr. Francisco, Getting saved is not a complex series of events.
In three out of the four Gospels God talks about the faith of children. [Matt. 19:14; Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16...
15 Let's define what Luke meant by '. . . infants.' βρέΦη {brepha} refers to a young child probably any age from two to seven. The parents wanted Jesus to bless them but the apostles did not think this was necessary.
16 Essentially, Jesus called them to Himself. He may have called them by their first names giving special attention to each child. Our Lord said, "The Kingdom of God is filled with people with child like, trusting faith in Him."
17 The children did not come to Christ with an evil or questioning agenda. They knew of His miracles and of His kindness and were eager to be in His Presence. In the same way, sinners must come to Jesus knowing their guilt before Him, yet seeking the miracle of a changed heart and life. People must want Him more than their sins or they will never see the beatific {happy} reality of seeing Jesus and of reuniting with their saved loved ones. The English word 'beatific' comes from the Latin word beatificus meaning {made joyful, blissful, ecstatic}.
Hulan
Dear Bro. Berrian, AMEN to your posting about little children. I was only concerned that such cannot be UNIVERSAL, or else we have conflict in the K.J.T. Okay?
Sing F Lau
Samuel said, "It is funny, the detailed analytics of Brother Lau they just aggravate a simple truth that cannot get any simpler....
===========
It is indeed very simple...
- by nature a man is dead in trespasses and sins..
- the Spirit of God regenerates a man like that...
- that explains everything else that follows..
THAT IS, eternal salvation is given to a man dead in trespasses and sins, then and only then, he is able to perceive spiritual truth, ad believe it.
Rejection of the gracious and prior work of the Spirit of God complicates and repudiates the simple truth... you and Ray do just that!
How simpler could it get?
Sing F Lau
Ray @ "Getting saved is not a complex series of events."
===========
Getting saved (in the eternal sense) is so simple that no man can perform it, but wholly and solely by God's SINGULAR and immediate and sovereign act alone.
Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins... But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us... even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.
How difficult for deceived and misguided children of God to receive this simple truth. Many of God's children REJECT and REPUDIATE "by grace are ye saved." They insist on their works... the activities they must perform in order to be saved!
Instead of recognizing this great work of God in salvation, Ray is obsessed with what sinners dead in their trespasses and sins must do to be saved.
That's another gospel...
Sing F Lau
Ray @ Salvation is as simple as saying yes to Jesus and following Him by living a life of holiness.
===========
It is indeed as simple as a dead man saying yes and opening the door for you to come in to dine with him;
it is as simple as a man in enmity against Christ agreeing to Christ's lordship and follow Him;
it is as simple as a man who is a servant of sin to live a life of holiness.
You most certainly believe in a salvation comes by the works of men.
You have all along strenuously REJECTED and REPUDIATED the absolute necessity of God's gracious and PRIOR activity of quickening the dead in trespasses and sins. "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved..." The disjunctive 'but' points to the native state of man before this sovereign and gracious act quickening the dead.
But you INSIST sinners in their native state of sin and death can say yes and follow Jesus by living a life of holiness.
You are preaching a false gospel!
Pj
Even faced with the fact that faith is in the list of the fruit of the Spirit, Mr. Ray still asserts that faith must precede the Spirit.
Mr. Ray, please, tell us how an effect precedes its cause.
Sing F Lau
Brother Keith pointed out this truth at the beginning to Ray. He either didn't notice, ignored it, or rejected such obvious truth. It doesn't fit his man-centred scheme of salvation.
Pj
Perhaps it be too simple a concept for the high and wise, but easy for little village boys and backwoods rednecks?
Ray
Salvation comes from the calling of the Holy Spirit on a person's life. Salvation is by pure grace.
Titus 4:5; Ephesians 2:8-10; I John 5:12-13; John 3:16 is a sample of God's call to eternal salvation.
Sing F Lau
Thanks, Ray.
Please state in a few words the condition of the those people WHEN the Triune God call them unto eternal salvation. Thanks.
"Salvation is by pure grace" is a meaningless shibboleth mouth by many. You are one such men by what you have insisted so far.
"By pure grace", if words have any more meaning, necessarily EXCLUDES any activities of those saved... but you have so strenuously insisted on the activities of man in order for them to be saved. That's hardly grace, much less pure!!!
Many hold to adulterated and contaminated grace... but masquerading it as "pure grace" nonetheless.
Ray
What is your understanding of Romans 10:14; 17?
Sing F Lau
Kindly answer my question first, and I will tell you my understanding of that passage in Romans 10.
My question is: Please state in a few words the condition of the those people WHEN the Triune God call them unto eternal salvation. Thanks.
Ray
All sinners are depraved but not Totally Depraved. Sinners and Christians are capable of committing any sin and Christians can attain to high levels of holy living/personal holiness. [I Peter 1:15-16]
With this depravity in every human being [Romans 3:23 &* I John 1:8] {the latter the Adamic nature/Original Sin} we cannot reject the fact that in Genesis 1:26-27 and James 3:9 indicates that each human being is created after the likeness to God. The Apostle Paul being the penman for God says in I Corinthians 11:7 that
'The man ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the 'image and glory of God.'
G.F. Oehler contends that ' . . . the original pattern is reproduced in man and that propagation in every person is His Image in humankind.'
The truth of the original language tells us that ELOHIM 'breathed into Adam the breath of lives {plural}. Deilitzsch writes,
'That man not only has imparted to him life but that life entails 'the Personality of God so man may become a living soul. The material body of a man or woman receives a Divinely-inbreathed spirit. {not the Holy Spirit} Within this concept humankind is mysteriously place under moral law going back some six thousand year to the time of Adam and Eve.'
Fallen man retains the image of God and this reality defines the extent of his degradation. If the 'image of God' was lost to every human being, man's conscience also would be incognito as to the moral law of the living God.
If we were totally depraved God could approach a man but he never for all eternity could respond to the calling of the precious Holy Spirit. He would be like an animal, unable to respond to Jesus' plan of salvation--ever.
The truth of the original language tells us that ELOHIM 'breathed into Adam the breath of lives {plural}. The plural lives refers to the human spirit that we receive when we are born, plus all of the attributes that the Lord God has are breathed into us also at the time of our human birth. This causes us to be created in the image of God. We know how to love because God is love. We understand justice only because it is imputed to our spirit at birth. The sinner also with his choice can be merciful to other human beings without knowing Jesus in saving faith. Why? Because of the image of God in a man or woman.
Please, think clearly here. This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit who comes into our lives when we believe and trust in Jesus as our Savior and Lord. This process is called regeneration of our soul and human spirit; this causes us to have the Presence of the Holy Spirit and we are ' . . . sealed unto the day of our final redemption' in Heaven. [Ephesians 4:30].
Yes human beings are depraved but never reject the fact that we were create in the image of the living God. This is the Biblical and balanced view of the depravity of humankind.
Samuel
Over simplified by analytics, that's my story and I am sticking to it.
When it comes to salvation its too simplified [here].
Ray
As to what I said, I was discussing 'Total Depravity' and not and explanation of salvation through Jesus. The issue was depravity of the sinner and also the fact that he or she is created in the image of God as I documented above in the N.T. The sinner is reachable because the Holy Spirit knocks at the heart and life of all sinners who have access to the plan of salvation.
Samuel
^^ This is my story this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long!
Ray
We used to sing this in our church when I was a kid.
Do you have any insight as to the menaing of every person being born 'in the image of God?'
Samuel
It means that we have emotions and choices, we act on emotions since we are spiritual and eventually act on our choices which cements our spiritual identity. I believe that's the image of God, please correct me.
Sing F Lau
Ray, I'm not interested in total depravity. Since you have raised the subject, please tell us what is total depravity?
I'm only asking you to state in few words the condition of the those people WHEN the Triune God call them unto eternal salvation. Thanks.
I'm not asking about the makeup of man made in the image of God. That's a completely different matter.
Sing F Lau
Ray @ "All sinners are depraved but not Totally Depraved."
Same question: state in few words the extent of the depravity of those sinners WHEN the Triune God call them unto eternal salvation. Thanks.
How depraved are those shown mercy here?
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
How depraved are those who are dead in trespasses and sins?
Ray
I am surprised, Pastor Lau, that you have not had to memorize the meaning of Reformed theology on this issue of Total Depravity.
Do a SEARCH and you will get the Calvinistic perspective, which is a narrow view of the Word of God.
Sing F Lau
Ray, you make a serious assumption... that I'm a student of reformed theology or calvinism! Quite mistaken, sir. Quite mistaken. So, no need to sidetrack the issue. Red herring doesn't work with me!
I'm a student of the Bible, and am interested in what the Scriptures declares about the state of those sinners WHEN the Triune God call them unto eternal salvation. So, state them if you wish, else hold your peace.
I can see that you have memorized the some teaching of men! Quoting men is futile... quoting Scriptures and rightly divide them is fruitful. Try it, sir!
Ray
Study, Pastor Lau, you are clearly Calvinistic on the first point of Calvinism. The sinner so dead and cannot turn to the Lord because he is like a dead man toward spiritual issues. You are not Biblical on this issue as I have so clearly explained to you and others about the sinner's ability to receive Christ as Savior [John 1:12].
Samuel
Been there done that, Calvinism is fun but its hypocritical at its core.
How could anyone be so dead to not realize their sinnership?
What made a Calvinist say that to others yet not believe in it himself?
Hulan
A good parallel is to sent preachers to the cemeteries and try get the bodies to just blink an eye, indicating that they want LIFE so they can be brought up out of the grave. That would be Calvinism and Arminianism.
Sing F Lau
Ray, if a teaching is according to Scriptures, it doesn't matter what label you want to associate with it. Just prove that it is not in the Scriptures.
John 1:12 DOESN'T help you at all.... Verse 13 repudiate you fable!!! It states that being born of God must PRECEDE believing; being born of God enables faith in the Son of God.
Verse 13:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
WERE born... explaining the believing activity!
And this new birth is not:
- of blood (natural lineage)
- the will of the flesh (his own power)
- the will of man (human instrumentality).
Verse 12 say, believing in Jesus Christ gives a man the right and authority to claim/call himself a child of God, and the explanation for that is found in verse 13!
So, you are believing a fable.
Sing F Lau
Samuel, I fear you have no inkling of what spiritual deadness means by your silly question - How could anyone be so dead to not realize their sinnership?
We know what a dead man can do! Deadness speaks of the utter inability to do those acts that accompanies the opposite, that is, life. A dead man has no ability to do whatsoever those activities that accompanies life.
When the Scriptures declares that man by nature is dead in trespasses and sins, it states his complete inability of performing those activities of spiritual life. He must be given spiritual life first before he could perform any activities that accompanies that life, like the capacity to perceive the things of the Spirit of God, believing them, and repenting, etc.
Man dead in trespasses and sins is NOT dead in his active ENMITY and rebellion against God... he is very much alive in his sin... he revels in his sinnership... he is willingly a slave of sin... he is positively antagonistic against the things of God...
You are completely misguided on the matter... just stating fact. You may be pissed off... if that be the case, too bad. You speak as a theologian, and I respond to you as such. If you are a student, I would be real patient and tender with you!!!
Samuel
Calvinist hothead, Confucian apex complex.
Why bother [anymore]
Ray
You have locked down your first and second doctrines begun with the top Roman Catholic theolgian, Augustine and later systematized by John Calvin in CALVIN'S INSTITUTES. Do you also believe in Limited Atonement/Particular Atonement?
Sing F Lau
Be careful Samuel., else you be blocked for your stupidity and foolishness here. If you can't engage in decent discussion, you shall be sacked from here... or you can choose to remove yourself!
Samuel
I am not worrying over something this simple, Sing chill out..
Sing F Lau
Ray, it would be more credible if you can refute the teaching of plain Scriptures. There is NOOOOOOO need to pick at Augustin or Calvin... I have no interest in them... they are not here to defend themselves either.
Deal with the Scriptures.... if you can't or won't, hold your peace, sir.
Pj
I believe in a definite and absolute atonement. Others may keep their worthless indefinite and relative atonement; I will have none of it.
Ray
As to Unconditional Election this means that the Lord only came to save some souls and to willfully damn other sinners. Reformed theology shows the Lord God as being partial and not God of Divine Justice/fairness.
Problem: The Lord is not partial toward some to take them to Heaven and to damn the majority of humankind. Study: Romans 22:11, II Samuel 14:14; Deuteronomy 10:17; the Book of Job 34:19.
Sing F Lau
Let stay on the unresolved matter yet...
Ray, state in few words the condition of the those people WHEN the Triune God call them unto eternal salvation.
Samuel, more childish nonsense from you, you will lose your privilege here.
Pj
Mr. Ray, your last comment presupposes that we believe double predestination to be true. It is a misrepresentation and a red herring.
We believe that the elect are predestinated to heaven based solely upon the blood and righteousness of Christ, and that the non-elect are ordained to damnation based upon sin.
Now, please get back to and stick to the our question concerning man in his native state of sin and death.
Sing F Lau
Ray, may be you have stated the Reformed Theology RIGHTLY... that God willfully damn other sinners! May be you are right. I'm not acquainted with Reformed Theology. I'm most certainly acquainted with the Scriptures, though I am still studying it. I do believe Reformed Theology has some serious deformities.... but that another subject altogether.
The Scriptures doesn't teach that God damns any sinners. It teaches that SINNERS have DAMNED themselves by their sins - both imputed sins and actual sins. Why? The WAGES of sin is DEATH!!! All have sinned in Adam, and all are conceived and born in sins, grow up in sin, and WILL MOST CERTAINLY die and PERISH in sin.... UNTIL and UNLESS divine grace intervene, freely and sovereignly! It has to be freely and sovreignly!
But you insist that sinners dead in trespasses and sins can, and must do something, then God will intervene to help them.
The simple truth is: God must intervene first and QUICKEN the spiritually dead sinners before they could perform any spiritual activities. BUT you have nothing of this truth... but prefer the fiction and fable that action precedes life!!!
Ray
All sinners are depraved but not Totally Depraved. Sinners and Christians are capable of committing any sin and Christians can attain to high levels of holy living/personal holiness. [I Peter 1:15-16]
With this depravity in every human being [Romans 3:23 &* I John 1:8] {the latter the Adamic nature/Original Sin} we cannot reject the fact that in Genesis 1:26-27 and James 3:9 indicates that each human being is created after the likeness to God. The Apostle Paul being the penman for God says in I Corinthians 11:7 that
Sing F Lau
Hey Ray, repetition of a lie does not, and will not morph it into a truth!!!
You copy and paste the above comment from the SAME comment you posted 6hr ago!!!
May be you have forgotten. Never mind, sometimes repetition is useful... both ways.
Pj
Adam corrupted that image!
Sing F Lau
Ray, 1Pet 1:15-16 are dealing with those whom Peter described as:
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Why would you even pick this passage to demonstrate your fable and LIE - that sinners dead in trespasses and sins are able to act in such a way to obtain salvation from God.
This passage DECLARES the opposite!!! Don't you even read????
That's why the first time you posted it, I didn't even bother to deal with it!!!
Ray
Pastor Lau, since you did not respond to me long explanation of the sinner's condition of soul, I thought I would repeat it so you get the benefit of the Hebrew word meaning. No repitition was intended here. Respond to people's comments and don't just let them pass by you.
Sinners are lost and depraved but do have a conscience and do understand the plan of salvation. As the Spirit of God works in their mind and on their life they will either yield to Jesus or will reject or neglect Him.
I did not get to your I Peter 1:15-16 passage yet.
Pj
This is an express denial of 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Ray
The sinner does not understand nor does he care about spirutual issues or truth; that is true.
Sinners do know they are sinners and when the Gospel is heard and the Spirit of God is at work in the minds of lost souls, they understand the concepts of Jesus dying on the Cross, paying for their sins, and their need to receive Christ to receive inner peace and Divine forgiveness.
The Lord visits sinner with the Holy Spirit and CONVICTS people of their sins [John 8:9].
Sing F Lau
Ray, @ "Sinners are lost and depraved but do have a conscience and do understand the plan of salvation. As the Spirit of God works in their mind and on their life they will either yield to Jesus or will reject or neglect Him. "
==========
You may be a little confuse here. See if I can help you see your own confusion...
Man is man, a moral creature made in the image of God... whether he is dead in trespasses and sins, or quickened by the Spirit. The conscience of a man dead in trespasses and sins DOES NOTHING to help him to perceive spiritual things.
The FIRST work of the Spirit upon a man dead in trespasses and sins is to QUICKEN him from his state of spiritual death! "EXCEPT a man be born again, he CANNOT..." did you hear the words of Christ??? You insist otherwise.
You have also OPENLY in defiance of Paul's words
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Apostle Paul declares NO, you insist yes!
Ray
The thief on the Cross first asked Jesus to remember Him when He came into His Kingdom. He was not that depraved that he did not know to ask Jesus for help.
Jesus always responds to our call for help and salvation when we were sinners. What did Jesus say in this instance while both were on the Cross.
'Today you will be with Me in Paradise.'
This is not difficult Math. Accept Jesus teachings with thanksgiving. The thief did and was made fit for Heaven and everlasting life.
Pj
Man by nature is totally depraved. Born again man is depraved, but not totally!
Sing F Lau
It is HARD Math for man to accept that in his native state of sin and death, he cannot see nor enter the kingdom of God.
Jesus declares, "EXCEPT a man be born again, he CANNOT see...."
It is very SIMPLE Math to conclude that when a man is able to see the kingdom of God, like the thief on the cross, he has been born again of God. Those born of God are delivered from their deadness to spiritual things.
Pj
"Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD." Isaiah 26:10
Yet he says that a man may be shown favour (grace) and that man will learn righteousness!
"Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God." Psalm 55:19b
Sing F Lau
Ray is joined to his fables...
I will leave him to his beliefs.
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo Tolstoy –
Pj
Leave him to his belief? More like his unbelief!
Ray
Liberals believe that everyone is saved; all we have to do is go and tell them they are the children of God. Thank God this is not either Pj nor Pastor Lau. You simply believe that the Lord choses the sinners He wants to save eternally, empowers and transforms their souls through the 'new birth' and then tells them here is the gift of faith; take it.
The thief on the Cross asked for a Divine favor which took a degree of faith that Jesus would respond in a positive way. [Luke 23:42] Only then, did Jesus respond with His Divine promise. [Luke 23:43].
'And Jesus said unto him. Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.'
Don't rearrange the order of the dialogue. First the thief asked and finally Jesus responded to the thief's attempt at having faith in the One who he saw as being able to save his soul.'
Ray
Knowing the Word of God and teaching it is more important to a pastor and those who hear him then quoting from a sinner with clever words like Tolstoy.
The man of God must deliver the Lord's message with a Thus saith the Lord and not the mental wanderings that mislead the flock.
How many infants and children does the Lord pass by and not give them the message of eternal salvation? It sure must be nice to be those infants and children who are graced with His salvific benefits. But to the rest of the children and lost adults, He allegedly leaves them in their sins. They were dead toward God anyway and can only blame themselves at the White Throne Judgment at the end of the age. Their sins sent them to Hell which was their horrible situation.
Sing F Lau
Ray, you are a smart aleck!
"Knowing the Word of God and teaching it is more important to a pastor and those who hear him then quoting from a sinner with clever words like Tolstoy.
=========
Go and tell that to Apostle Paul when he quoted the pagan poets and prophet (Acts 17:28, Titus 1:12) to shame the smart alecks!
Ac 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Sing F Lau
Ray, you are probably the MOST OBTUSE man I have come across... and this is why:
You said, "Don't rearrange the order of the dialogue. First the thief asked and finally Jesus responded to the thief's attempt at having faith in the One who he saw as being able to save his soul."
But who is rearranging the order of dialogue?
The issue is: what explains for the dialogue!
You have not answered the question... what enabled a the thief, a man conceived and born in sin, dead in trespasses and sins... to see Christ as the Saviour and seek for mercy?
What explains the thief's attempt at faith? When you see a man who was DEAD but now asking for food, don't you want to asked, what was done to the dead man such that he wants food now?
EXCEPT the Spirit of God HAS ALREADY REGENERATED him, would the thief be able to do what he did? WITHOUT that SAVING activity of the Spirit of God, would the thief be able to SEE Jesus as the Christ???
Is that a simple enough question?
I repeat, you are the most obtuse and incorrigible man I have encountered on Facebook... just stating fact from my perspective!
Ray
You already have ignored my lengthy paragraphs explaining that man is depraved but also has deeply imbedded in his spirit 'the image of the living God' {James 3:9; Genesis 1:26, 27]. All of the attributes of the Lord are invested in every sinner, with the added factor of a conscience that has in it the moral laws of God.
The sinner is not dead toward God, to the extent that when someone witnesses to a sinner, or preaches in a congregation where a sinner is seated or a tract is given, this gives the Holy Spirit the open opportunity to speak to the person's lost condition of sinfulness.
Romans 10:9-17 indicates that God sends preachers so sinners can hear the plan of salvation.
'Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.'
You contention is that a sinner is born of the Holy Spirit before or after he hears and then the light of faith goes on in his mind and heart.
The thief on the Cross heard and saw Jesus and the Spirit caused him to realize that He is the Son of God and Savior of the world. And then the thief said 'Remember me . . . ' What then? The answer to his asking.
'Today you will be with Me in Paradise.'
Steve
@Ray - "I can take on any theologian in a debate and use only 1/3rd of my brain and still win the discussion if he or she is giving a wrong exegesis."
"And by the way I took two courses in Advanced Hermaneutics with 300+ Q & A in each course. I know how to exegete Holy Scripture. This surpasses the abilities of a small town pastor"
---- unquote ----
Absolutely "stunning" comments! Ray, perhaps it'll be good to review and reflect on those comments. And you actually think that going to seminaries, taking courses, blah blah blah, will make you superior in knowledge and understanding of the truth?? There's some serious delusion here and seriously, haven't heard of such boasting! 300+ Q & A?? Just 2 babe-like questions from me and you have not answered!
Sing F Lau
Ray @ "Romans 10:9-17 indicates that God sends preachers so sinners can hear the plan of salvation.
'Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.'
============
No, God send preachers so that His CHILDREN can hear the GOOD NEWS of the salvation He has accomplished for them in Jesus Christ.
ONLY His children - sinners whom He has regenerated by His free and sovereign activity when they were still dead in their trespasses and sins - are able to hear the glorious good news of their salvation.
The grandest plan of salvation is of no use to those dead in trespasses and sins. You are completely deceived!!!
Sinners who are not already regenerated by God have no capability to hear the things of the Spirit of God. The gospel is foolishness to them!!!
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18.
You can continue with your fiction and fable!
Gospel preaching can bring out faith from God's children ONLY... it CANNOT and WILL NOT bring faith out from those who are still dead in trespasses and sins.
Why is this PLAIN and OBVIOUS truth so difficult for your to accept??????
Pj
I see in Mr. Ray's comments a blatant denial of original sin.
He is also continuing with what the serpent said, "Ye shall not surely die." He says, "They are not really dead!"
Ray
I believe in Original Sin, Pj. You have trouble accepting what people write on this venue.
Pj
Furthermore, Mr. Ray is attempting to sidestep "death in sins" by his own redefining of what it means; instead, he should take it for what it is and admit that man by nature has no ability of his own to do good, or any desire thereunto, and that it is God which worketh in men both to will and to do of his own good pleasure.
Pj
Yes, I do have a problem with what people write on this particular venue as the word of God teaches otherwise.
Sing F Lau
Ray believes in original sin...
Tell us, Ray, what is original sin, and what is the actual implications and effects of your idea of "Original Sin".
Thank you very much.
One sly Yankee told me long ago this, 'He who defines always wins."
Pj describes you spot on: you are continuing on with what the serpent said.
Thanks Pj Walters, that is an apt observation.
The whole idea is really stupid, oxymoronic: "he is dead, but not really dead!!!
Steve
@Ray - "Yes human beings are depraved but never reject the fact that we were create in the image of the living God."
Ray, do you even understand your own words??
Steve
@Ray- "The sinner is reachable because the Holy Spirit knocks at the heart and life of all sinners who have access to the plan of salvation."
Here's another one, Ray ... it's getting quite comical!
Steve
@Ray - "Sinners do know they are sinners and when the Gospel is heard and the Spirit of God is at work in the minds of lost souls, they understand the concepts of Jesus dying on the Cross, paying for their sins, and their need to receive Christ to receive inner peace and Divine forgiveness."
Sinners do know they are sinners????
Steve
@Ray - "How many infants and children does the Lord pass by and not give them the message of eternal salvation?"
How do you give the message of eternal salvation to an infant????
Sing F Lau
The dead man inside his house is reachable by Ray knocking on the door of the dead man's house... the dead man has the golden opportunity to open up and invite Ray into the house to dine with the dead man! Yes, comical INDEED! I don't even know why Ray doesn't see the futility of his fable!
Why is it so hard for him to admit the PREREQUISITE divine work of regenerating sinners dead in trespasses and sins BEFORE they can do anything.... Why is it so hard to accept the declaration of Jesus the Christ, "
EXCEPT a man be born again, he CANNOT....
How dead is a man dead in trespasses and sins?
Ray said dead, but no so dead... there is some spark of live that enables him to open the door when the Spirit comes knocking!
Jesus the Christ said, 'CANNOT... " Ray the highminded man repudiates Jesus words, and insisted, "CAN CAN CAN..."
Let God be true but every man a LIAR!
Ray
I went to a Refomed seminary for one year and I was told that there were infants who were non-elect.
Pastor Lau, your allusion to 'a dead man' shows me your gullibility and blindness to the truth of humans being all made after the likeness of God and not after the similitude of the Devil. The N.T. does not refer to a dead man illustration. I heard this back in 1961 so the illustration is not new with you.
Sing F Lau
Ray @ The N.T. does not refer to a dead man illustration.
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Yes, dead in trespasses and sins... rendering a man incapable of performing any act that brings him to God... even though he is very alive in his enmity and rebellion again God... rejecting the gospel as foolishness...
Yes, so dead that EXCEPT he is born of God, he CANNOT.... CANNOT perceive the truth concerning the kingdom of God...
You are either blind or choose not to believe what is plainly stated in Scriptures!!!
You heard it only in 1961? I heard it said in the 1st century!
Ray
After the Word is given the Spirit of God calls sinners to Christ. They do not always respond as we well know from Acts 7:51.
Ray
I am happy that the Scripture trumps your personal ideas and has kept you from believing in Irresistible Grace. Thanks be to the Lord God.
Steve
@Ray - "I went to a Reformed seminary for one year and I was told that there were infants who were non-elect."
Well ..... why don't you give a Bible-based answer instead of "I was told"?? Surely that isn't a problem for someone who's been to Bible College and seminaries and this and that??
Ray
Chong, explain Acts 7:51. If you cannot do this we will know you do not want to understand what the Lord is saying about these Jews and all the people of the world who willingly reject or neglect receiving Christ as Savior and Lord of their lives.
Steve
@Ray, First things first, please kindly scroll up and answer my questions on Acts 7:51 (and the verses before that) ... you have not answered those questions and the questions after that ... and here you are, unashamedly, asking me to explain Acts 7:51? Based on your various postings above, it is obvious you do not understand Acts 7:51, and you keep quoting it to defend your position ... talk about irony! Anyway, Acts 7:51 can be explain in one sentence in a babe-like manner (Bible College, seminaries, 300+ Q & A, blah blah blah ... all not required)
Ray
God is blessing our teaching in all parts of the world.
Steve
Ray, why don't you just answer those questions that have been asked?
Sing F Lau
Ray, "God is blessing our teaching in all parts of the world."
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Even if that be true, it is no measure of truth!
Man loves LIES too!!
