Here is an Arminian Calvanist! "It is only possible to know Christ, the object of our faith, through the gospel. Our faith must be dependent on the Word of God. -John Calvin "Biblical Christianity"
Sing F Lau
Why not quote the original?
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?... 17 So then faith cometh... by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Apostle Paul.
Why such obsession with Calvin? He is far inferior to Paul!
Calvin said these words in his comments on John 3:16... he speak EXACTLY like an typical Arminian!
16. For God so loved the world. "Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish..."
Some of the silliest classic Arminian notions:
- Christ was offered to be Saviour...
- Faith in Christ brings life to all...
- Heavenly Father loves the human races...
- Heavenly Father wishes they should not perish...
What is offered is up to men to accept! Classic Arminiansim! God does not offer anything
Faith in Christ brings life to all... the life-less can believe in Christ in order to secure life! Classic Arminiansim! Jesus gives eternal life and this enables them to believe in Him!
Heavenly Father loves the human race? Classic Arminiansim! God is Creator of His creatures, but He is Father only to His children.
Heavenly Father wishes they should not perish? Classic Arminiansim! No, He saves His elect to the uttermost.
Who is the true John Calvin of Geneva?
Yoel
I know and heard of Jesus Christ and Apostle Paul;...but who's John Calvin? John who?..... "out of our mouths come out what we most value and treasure in our hearts"....
Ken
Sing Lau: It was explained to me that the word “offer” in the days of Calvin simply meant “to present” which differs from the present day meaning. Also, Calvin in his comments on John 3:16 continued on to say what I doubt a true Arminian would say.
“Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father — that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ.
Still it is not yet very evident why and how faith bestows life upon us. Is it because Christ renews us by his Spirit, that the righteousness of God may live and be vigorous in us; or is it because, having been cleansed by his blood, we are accounted righteous before God by a free pardon? It is indeed certain, that these two things are always joined together; but as the certainty of salvation is the subject now in hand, we ought chiefly to hold by this reason, that we live, because God loves us freely by not imputing to us our sins. For this reason sacrifice is expressly mentioned, by which, together with sins, the curse and death are destroyed. I have already explained the object of these two clauses, which is, to inform us that in Christ we regain the possession of life, of which we are destitute in ourselves; for in this wretched condition of mankind, redemption, in the order of time, goes before salvation.”
Sing F Lau
Calvin @ "Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ..."
So, in the words of Calvin, is it life that enables the believing OR is it believing that is necessary to get the promised life?
Calvin @ "Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ."
So, in the words of Calvin, is the faith that embraces Christ an EVIDENCES of life of Christ already given, or is faith that embraces Christ the means to OBTAIN the life of Christ?
Calvin @ "Still it is not yet very evident why and how faith bestows life upon us. "
So, it is plain and clear that Calvin believes that faith in Christ BESTOWS life upon the believers, even though why and how that happens is not yet very evident.
I am only inquiring.
Ken
Good inquiry. Also, even though I believe Calvin was a very gifted man of God he also was known to make errors. Here is a quote from him also worth considering:
"God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.
Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions? There is none of these which does not claim a share of praise in the salvation of men; so that the praise of grace would not, as Paul shews, remain undiminished. When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation."
Sing F Lau
Thanks, Ken. Years ago I had a Tony DeJong from New Zealand as a guest in my home. Is he related to you? Where is that quote above taken from?
Ken
Sing Lau You're welcome. I do not think that Tony is related. The quote is from Calvin's commentary on Ephesians 2:8ff. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom41.iv.iii.iii.html
Sing F Lau
Thanks.
I invite you to read here... a commentary on Eph 2:8-9.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html
May our Lord grant you understanding.
Any question is welcome.
Sing F Lau
My comments on what Calvin said in your quote above.
Calvin @ "The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us."
==============
In this few sentences, Calvin already self-contradicted several times.
1. He is implying that men who are still dead in trespasses and sins are able to receive the salvation offered (if salvation is ever offered at all to start with!).
- To portray God as offering salvation to sinners dead in trespasses and sins is to portray God as silly and foolish as an American who offers a BigMac to a dead dog!
2. On the one hand, it is 'by faith', by man's act of believing, without which he cannot receive the offered salvation; on the other hand 'nothing connected with it is our own'. So which is which?
- Does the man dead in his trespasses and sin have the grace of faith worked in him by the indwelling Spirit to enable him to believe? Yes or no?
- If yes, he is ALREADY saved ... and the offer of salvation comes tooooooo late.
- If 'no', then it is really stupid and foolish to offer salvation to that man completely devoid of any ability to accept! Whatever has happened to 'total depravity'? In addition to that, such offer is cruel insult and ultimate mockery to the dead.
3. 'If we bring nothing but faith' - now, English is not my first language... but those words is an implicit admission that we bring nothing EXCEPT faith... that means we DO bring nothing EXCEPT one thing, and that is faith! We DO BRING faith.
Salvation indeed does not come from us... it is of the Lord.
God himself purposed it in eternity; Christ himself accomplished it legally for His people; and the Spirit of God applies that salvation to each elect personally at God's approved and appointed time while they were still dead in trespasses and sins (i.e incapable of doing anything good God-ward, but are in active enmity and rebellion against God).
When salvation has been applied to an elect personally (justification, regeneration, and adoption with the gift of the Spirit of adoption) an elect is enabled to believe by the grace of faith worked in the child of God.
Faith is a evidence of salvation bestowed freely by God's sovereign grace.
Calvin INSISTS all the way that faith is the means to obtain that salvation.
There is an unbridgeable gulf between the two. The former is the gospel of Christ, the latter is another gospel of Calvin.
Please correct me where I am wrong!
Ken
Thanks for your references and thought provoking remarks. I will try to look into this more but my quick response is I think Calvin does not view our faith as something which originates with us but it is a gift through which we obtain God's salvation by grace - thus it rules out any work on our part in obtaining salvation.
Sing F Lau
Calvin is smart enough to admit that faith is a gift of God... but it is man who needs to EXERCISE that gift to obtain salvation by grace... just as you have put it. (Faith is actually a saving grace worked WITHIN a child of God, already saved by God's grace.; it is not a gift from WITHOUT.)
It is precisely this way of seeing the matter that is loaded with inconsistencies and contradictions... that impinge upon the very character of God, and repudiate the gospel of Jesus Christ.
First, such a view teaches that Gift gives the gift of faith to one who is still dead in trespasses and sins, and expect such a totally depraved man to utilize that gift to obtain God's salvation by grace, (if it is by grace at all)!
Do you see the contradictions involved?
Second, faith is NOT a gift that precedes salvation, and faith is NOT the means or instrument to obtain salvation. That's a devil's lie loved by so many!
Faith is a FRUIT and EFFECT of the salvation ALREADY bestowed by God's free grace. Faith is a grace worked in the child of God (a justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt by the Spirit of God) which enables him to believe the truth of his salvation by God's free grace. A fruit and effect of the salvation CANNOT possibly be the instrument to obtain that same salvation. No chance whatsoever! That's height of irratoionalism!
Third, if believing (which is exercising the grace of faith worked within us) is necessary to obtain salvation, then it is work, and no more grace. Believing is an activity of man, it is a work.
Christ himself said that believing in Him is a work that God require of His children, it is their duty to believing in Jesus Christ because He is their Saviour. Believing is not a work that spiritually dead sinner can do in order to obtain salvation.
Calvin, and his followers are full of contradictions!
That amounts to ANOTHER gospel, which is no gospel at all.
Ken
Wow. I did not expect such a lenthy reply and yet I am not I ready to agree with your final conclusion. I admit Calvin was "smart enough to admit faith is a gift of God", etc. But I also think Calvin himself would agree that "Faith is a FRUIT and EFFECT of the salvation ALREADY bestowed by God's free grace." Calvin, sinful like us, may certainly have said things that appear confusing, as you point out, nevertheless he is also well known to oppose any position of us earning our own salvation. As far as I know he was, and is, hated for being a strong predestinarian and he taught election and reprobation to be part of God's eternal will. I find it extreme to say he preached ANOTHER gospel. But it is not what Calvin or we say that ultimately matters and so we must bow before the Word of God and seek to live in thankfulness for our salvation. His truth is revealed to us in Holy Scripture which I believe teaches our salvation can only be a result of the fruit of the Spirit by which we grasp by faith - which also is also given to us. Hope this helps and may we grow in grace today through the preaching oh God's Word on this 1st day of the week (the N.T. sabbath day since Christ arose on this day.)
Sing F Lau
It boils down to this simple matter:
If faith is indeed a fruit and effect of salvation, THEN faith CANNOT POSSIBLY be at the same time the means to obtain that same salvation. That's elementary!
The effect of Salvation cannot possibly be at the same time the means to to obtain that Salvation! That's the height of irrationalism and nonsense... and this committed by Calvin and the calvinists, just like the confused Arminians!
