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| A cocky rooster strutting around |
Gregory stated,
'To say that God regenerates man before belief and to say God works without any help from man is not calvinism but more like hyper-calvinism. God ordains the means said Calvin. Look at the Bible. God does not need man but He chose to use man in His plan of redemption. Why? As God.'
The following exchanges took place. read and understand, buy the truth!
Zachariades
Listen to yourself, "God ordained the means." Exactly the calvinist view. God did not consult man to see if the matter would be okay. God ordains absolutely and saves by His grace unconditionally. What you are suggesting sounds like a capitulation to Arminianism, if you mean that man is used in his own salvation as if God ordained that man would be saved by cooperating with God's grace. Maybe I misunderstood you. Hopefully that is so. But if I have not, then what you are advocating is is a form of Calminianism. There is nothing like this in Scripture. God is the ultimate cause of all things.
This is Calvinism!
Trowse
Not in his own salvation. God uses man to spread the gospel to others. That is consistent with what Calvin taught. Also Calvinism teaches human responsibility as well as God's sovereignty.
Sellers
The scriptures clearly present regeneration as the result of faith. Not the other way around.
Trowse
If it was clear there would be no war.
Sellers
True! One's man clarity is another man's heresy. LOL. No I was simple expressing my preference for the reading that says that regeneration comes by faith.
By the way I caught glimpse of a thread you commented on where Evan was actually promoting something akin to doctrinal salvation. It is unfortunate that with all the emphasis on doctrine it can be easy to forget that the person of Jesus is the one who saves. He alone saves us, not we ourselves, not our perfect theology, but faith in Him.
Evan may have lost sight of that, how sad and how wrong he is.
Trowse
Yes,I noticed that Jon and I find that a little off.Its a complicated issue but the bible says that the only thing that marks a Christian is belief of the gospel and evidence of that belief.When you add doctrine to belief as conditions to salvation you are walking dangerously.Its not to say it is tempting to add conditions but Paul never did.
Pavich
Greg, it might just be the way you put it but I think you're wrong.
You said: 'To say that God regenerates man before belief and to say God works without any help from man is not calvinism but more like hyper-calvinism.
God not only DOES regenerate men's hearts before belief (thus causing man to believe) and He certainly DOESN'T need men's "help" in salvation...though man DOES believe...he does so AS A REACTION to what's already been done.
Am i misunderstanding you?
Trowse
Don't follow Robert. Just waking up. Can you dumb it down a bit. I am saying God chooses or chose to use the foolishness of mans preaching today.
Pavich
Greg...lol...if I knew...I wouldn't be asking...but thanks for letting me know...I would have never guessed that that's what you meant (your comment two above this)
If that's what you meant...why didn't you just say God chooses to use the foolishness of mans preaching to bring people to salvation? that would have been simpler :)
Trowse
Robert, I was responding to what Sing had said on another thread where he said man has nothing to do with salvation. Or something like that but clearly man does the preaching these days so that statement of Sing F Lau is not correct.
Sing F Lau
Hello there! You call for me? Here I am.
"To say that God regenerates man before belief and to say God works without any help from man is not calvinism but more like hyper-calvinism. God ordains the means said Calvin. Look at the Bible. God does not need man but He chose to use man in His plan of redemption. Why? "
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I say the above statements is FULL of confusion [sic]... whether it is calvinism or not, does not matter. It is most certainly not what the Bible teaches.
Don't spray your machine guns just yet. When you have understood what I have said, bring out you USAF ICB missiles
At the heart of this GLARING CONFUSION is the failure to distinguish the distinction between UNCONDITIONAL eternal salvation, and CONDITIONAL temporal salvation.
In the matter of ETERNAL salvation, the Triune God alone, without means, PURPOSED, ACCOMPLISHED, and APPLIED it to each elect WITHOUT ANY MEANS. It is UNCONDITIONAL.
Romans 8
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This passage is speaking of ETERNAL salvation.
In the matter of TEMPORAL salvation i.e. that which pertaining to the life here and now, God has appointed means, and hold His children responsible to use them to work out their own salvation.
Please consider these things... don't shoot just yet.
Sing F Lau
Take a look here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/05/monergism-and-synergism-confused-and.html Things New and Old: Monergism and Synergism Confused and Confounded
Trowse
In the matter of ETERNAL salvation, the Triune God alone, without means, PURPOSED, ACCOMPLISHED, and APPLIED it to each elect WITHOUT ANY MEANS. It is UNCONDITIONAL!
I would say some without any means of man like Paul and the Apostles.Paul was appointed by God not by any man Gal 1
The means for us gentile plebs is by the foolishness of MANS preaching. That is why the means is part of the unconditional election for us but for Paul and the other apostles the means does not include the preaching by man but by God Himself. I guess both have means that are predestined but for us man is involved in the preaching.
Trowse
Sing, you are trying to say the means is not predestined. The means is part of the unconditional election.
Sing F Lau
Let me say it again: see if you are capable of getting it. In theological discussion, words must be precise.
I did not say that means is not ordained by God.
God did indeed ordain the ministry of the word.
But means HAVE RESPECT ONLY to the temporal salvation of God children.
Means are for the WELL-BEING of God's children.
Means have NOTHING with the BEING of God's children.
The Triune God uses no MEANS to bring into BEING His children - He does it by His own sovereign power... with no human means involved.
Please show what means is involved in unconditional election. What means did God used in unconditional election?
Thanks.
Sing F Lau
"Not in his own salvation. God uses man to spread the gospel to others. That is consistent with what Calvin taught.Also Calvinism teaches human responsibility as well as Gods sovereignty."
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Spreading the gospel, the good news of what the Triune God has done - i.e. Father PURPOSED eternal salvation, Christ accomplished eternal salvation, and the Holy Spirit applied that eternal redemption to each elect - is a WHOLE WORLD of difference from God's work of eternal salvation without means.
The work of redemption, and the proclamation of that redemption are two completely distinct issues. Redemption was accomplished for, and applied to each elect WITHOUT human means. That is why it is by grace, if grace has any more meaning left. That is why it is unconditional... if unconditional has any meaning left.
If you can't distinguish the eternal salvation purposed, accomplished, and applied without means, and the means appointed for the proclamation of that same glorious work, then you have not even begin to rightly divide the word of truth.
What God has purposed, accomplished, and applied WITHOUT means, and His appointment of means to declare that salvation which was without means are two very different things!
DISTINCTION is the essence of sound theology!
Let me say it again, DISTINCTION is the essence of sound theology.!
Milne
Sing says... "Don't spray your machine guns just yet. When you have understood what I have said, bring out you USAF ICB missiles"
The problem is, Sing's writings are so full of self-contradiction that it's impossible to truly "understand" what he has said...
Sing F Lau
It is your honor to demonstrate those self-contradiction then. If you can't, hold your peace, and you would appear wise.
Perhaps it is your prejudice that prevents you from understanding what is plainly consistent.
Do you know that there are so many who believe that the dead must believe in order to have life, and firmly believe that they are wholly and completely consistent????
Trowse
Sing F Lau , you just said you don't care what Calvin taught on your post. That is a bit rich don't you think which is why you tend to be more Hyper-Calvinist.
The means of salvation is part of unconditional election. That is what Calvin taught but since you don't care what can I say. The bible even says God uses the foolishness of mans teaching. 1 Cor 1:21 and Rom 1:16 says the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.
Unless someone is sent how will they know. You will be my witnesses everywhere ect . Your understanding is to wooden. In Gods mind He knows everything but we have no idea who the elect are and we are told not to be lazy. It is a bit like the now not yet principle.
We are told to preach in season and out of season.Well the preachers do.Why bother.
Sing F Lau
'Unless someone is sent how will they know.'
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So, is it unless someone is sent how will they be regenerated? or is it unless someone is sent how will they know? Which is which? Calvinist Gregory.
'How will they know' presupposes that they are already living... only the spiritually alive are capable of knowing spiritual things!
This is what you have said, "To say that God regenerates man before belief is not calvinism but more like hyper-calvinism.
You insist that God appoints means for the REGENERATION of those dead in trespasses and sins. You insist the gospel as the means of regeneration... life comes by hearing and believing.
The Scriptures teaches that God appoints means for CONVERSION of His children.The gospel ministry is for the conversion of God's children.
Do you even see the vast difference between the last two statements?
Sing F Lau
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
NOT by some words out of the mouth of Calvin.
I am interested in what the Scriptures teaches. You can keep your Calvin. I will keep Paul of Tarsus.
You still don't understand a simple and basic point.
The means to announce the eternal salvation ALREADY accomplished for and applied to His people is NOT THE SAME as the means to help God accomplish for and apply that eternal salvation to His people.
Since you are so obtuse, let me giving you an example.
When you father a child in your wife your maidservant did not assist you in your act of bringing in BEING a child, did she? But once the child has been born, the maid is a means to look after the WELL-BEING of the child.
Trowse
Sing F Lau, I understand what you are saying but I do not agree. God saves but He can use secondary causes. God may make you wet but to do so He will send rain. God may want to give you food and He might send down manna from heaven or if you have means to work He will send you to cut hair to get money to buy food.
God might save you and He could blind you on the road and you might hear a voice from heaven or someone may share the gospel with you.
The timing of salvation with God is before the foundation of the world but we don't find out until we are saved. You are not God.
Sing F Lau
Sorry mate! You still don't understand though you claim you do...
Of course I am not God, but I am a kangaroo trainer!
In your language... you CANNOT even differentiate the PRIMARY causes in eternal salvation, and the secondary means in temporal salvation.
In eternal salvation, God is the ONLY and PRIMARY cause.
In temporal salvation, God does appoint secondary means.
In all the actions you raised above... you forget the PRIMARY CAUSE of God Himself in bringing you into spiritual BEING... before all the secondary causes for your spiritual WELL-BEING make any sense!
It is easier to instruct a kangaroo than Gregory.
I did that in a farm in the NSW outback in the 80's!
