The bird is intensely focused on the subject at hand! An appalling quality of discussion...
people are incapable of engaging, and sticking to
the issues under consideration anymore!
They waffle and drift, etc.
people are incapable of engaging, and sticking to
the issues under consideration anymore!
They waffle and drift, etc.
Dennis Keesee posed a question
True or False: "A faith that only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection is not sufficient…. Forgiveness for the Christian also depends on having a futuristic faith in God’s promises. Thus we cannot regard justifying faith as sufficient if it honors only the past fact of Christ’s death and resurrection but does not honor the future promises of God…"
Berge
So when CHrist said it was finished He was lying?
Allison
Hebrews 6:1 kjv Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection ; not laying again the foundation of repentence from dead works, and of faith toward God.
Marks
False. We are saved 'through' faith, it is not the justification. Christ's redeeming work is our justification.
Allison
I don't understand where you are coming from ...there was no opinion in my post that was pure scripture from the kjv bible
Marks
Jimmy Who are you referring to? All our posts refer to the main post.
Allison
Shooowee, false this and false that I just don't know who is saying what's false. What is false here precisely?
Keesee
This quote came from John Piper, believe it or not.
England
Gotta be false for those who put their trust in Christ. But in what context is he talking? Does your disagreement with his teaching, in your opinion, mean he is not saved? So many Christians stop trusting God for many reasons. Does that mea...n God never saved them to the end, in spite of false teachers and mean Christians? That seems an oxymoron. I know a few and have been accused of being one myself.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Keesee
Dan, If you die apart from Christ, He -never- knew you.
He did not know you and then stop knowing you.
"On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I -never- knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' - Matt 7:22-23
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." - 1 John 2:19
Does that answer that question?
As for Piper, he mentioned this in his book called 'Future Grace' which splits Justification into process, not a past-tense done deal on the basis of Christ's finished work.
It's not a done deal to him. You cannot be saved unless your faith becomes 'faithfulness' ... which is active faith in the future grace of God.
Piper said this is Christianity Today:
"Present justification is based on the substitutionary work of Christ alone, enjoyed in union with him through faith alone. Future justification is the open confirmation and declaration that in Christ Jesus we are perfectly blameless before God. --[This final judgment accords with our works.]-- That is, the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives will be brought forward as the evidence and confirmation of true faith and union with Christ. Without that validating transformation, there will be no future salvation. "
England
God sure didn't save a smart people did He.
Ariyeh
It is amazing to read that DJ and not get angry. What I find interesting is if you only give the quote many of our friends will say "that is heretical".
But, when you tell them who believes and who wrote the book defending it, they take a... step back and go into defensive mode. All of a sudden they are trying to tell US that we are taking him out of context or he didnt mean it that way, etc.
All those who disagree with that statement that DJ posted but defend the person who wrote it need to have a reality check in your Christian life. Do you really know the gospel?
It must also be pointed out that the original statement was made by an Arminian. So we would expect bad theology like this, But, when a so called "sovereign gracer" uses it as a springboard to write a book, this should be very troubling for us.
The statement is anti gospel. It is heretical and it must be dealt with.
Anyone who reads that statement and tries to defend such a statement is either very confused about the gospel (which I doubt) or they are not saved. To agree with such a statement is to say you believe another gospel.
To defend the man who supports this statement is equally troubling as I said. In general, only a heretic would agree with the words of a heretic. God's people have the Holy Spirit and we are not deceived by this language. The gospel of grace resonates with us when we hear its beauty as it is explained.
What I hear in the statement is works. Me, me me! Final salvation; Future salvation; Future grace are all heretical concepts in the light of God's work.
May God have pity on the Christian who is supporting the man who wrote that statement. May the Lord open your eyes to your deception if you support John Piper.
Sing F Lau
May I ask, not sufficient for what?
England
what a crying shame that Christianity in America is so dysfunctional. But God said He was saving a people who did not know their left hand from their right. Wow God is always so right!
Martin
I don't know about anyone else, but I see God as living in the eternal now. Seeing everything from the begining to the end at once. He does not depend on the sequence of things as we do. When He said He loved, it was final, and eternally finished. He does not need to express His love again. He did it once when He crucified HIs Son.
Goddard
Amen, Bro. Bill! Go to the head of the class!
Martin
Didn't Jesus say it is finished. I thinks that the bibles teaches that the truely born agian will produce the works of the Spirit in His life, because it is the Spirit working, apart from whatever the person may or may not know. Perseveranc...e of the saints is the work of the Spirit in the saints.
Future grace is a strange term, it seems to me that you cannot dictate to God that He will give you grace in any given situation.
Sing F Lau
When Jesus said it is finished, what is finished?
Eternal salvation of sinners dead in their trespasses and sins?
Or the temporal salvation of God's children?
Or both?
Is the insufficiency with respect to eternal salvation by grace or the temporal salvation that God's children must work out for themselves?
God purposed eternal redemption for all His elect.
Christ accomplished that eternal redemption for the same.
The Spirit applied that eternal redemption to each elect... when they were dead in trespasses and sins, and worse still in enmity and rebellion against God.. all this without the aid or cooperation of man at all.
And those to whom the Holy Spirit applied eternal redemption, they are INSTANTLY and COMPLETELY and ETERNALLY and PERFECTLY fitted for eternal glory. What else is lacking? What else is deficient? What else is needed for eternal redemption?
Ah, many preachers insist that God needs their help in the eternal salvation of His elect!
Such are utterly deluded. God gives them the honor of nurturing the children whom HE HIMSELF has begotten sovereign. Preachers plays NO ROLE whatsoever in begetting! Preachers play their appointed role of nurturing God's children... teaching them that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world... and working out their OWN salvation with fear and trembling through their obedient responses to God's will for them!
So, wherein lies the in-sufficiency? Temporal salvation may be.
Most certainly NOT NOT NOT with respect to eternal redemption... else 'salvation by grace alone' is just a religious shibboleth and empty slogan!
Sing F Lau
"A faith that only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection is not sufficient...
===
If there is a faith that looks to Christ, it is proof that eternal salvation has been bestowed by God's free grace... and such a person has been made completely fit for glory.
WHOSOEVER BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE - is a declaration of fact.
So, not sufficient for what need to be defined!
Keesee
Sing, you mentioned two things that really bother me:
"Eternal salvation of sinners dead in their trespasses and sins? Or the temporal salvation that God's children? Or both?"
---and
"we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world... and working out their OWN salvation with fear and trembling through their obedient responses to God's will for them! "
Sing, Scripture does not divide the perfect and finished work of Christ at all. You cannot divide God's purposes of redemption into categories and Scripture does not make that application.
We -have been- Justified and we -have been- Glorified. This language of certainty is used by God to show it's unfailing and unchanging character.
We do not add to or 'work out' our own salvation. The verse says more than you decided to mention: "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, ---[for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.]---" - Phil 2:12-13
This is not the working of man in any sense of the word. It is God working in us. You must be more careful with your language otherwise you are mixing law and gospel.
"So, wherein lies the in-sufficiency? Temporal salvation may be.
Most certainly NOT NOT NOT with respect to eternal redemption... else 'salvation by grace alone' is just a religious shibboleth and empty slogan!"
Sing, these words are anti-Christian.
I will not even play games with you about this. You either repent of attacking the perfect work of Christ or your posts will be removed and you will be blocked permanently.
"Most certainly NOT NOT NOT with respect to eternal redemption..."
If your religion cannot admit that the finished work of Christ -IS- sufficient for eternal redemption, then your religion is demonic.
"For by a single offering he has [perfected] for all time those who are being sanctified." - Heb 10:14
No debate Sing. You are very wrong sir.
Sing F Lau
"If your religion cannot admit that the finished work of Christ -IS- sufficient for eternal redemption, then your religion is demonic. "
==========
It will do you well to read and understand what I have ACTUALLY written.
All I have written is EXACTLY stating that the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST is all that is needed for ETERNAL redemption of God's elect.
Why don't you read it again... reserve your knee-jerk reaction!
Sing F Lau
And remember, God is not only interested with the ETERNAL redemption of His elect. That is completely and fully taken care of by Christ alone, and applied to each elect by God's free grace alone.
He cares ALSO for their temporal salvation, their WELL-BEING as His children in their lives here and now... and He provides the means for His children to work out their OWN temporal salvation here and now.
Keesee
Sing, we have no part in any type of salvation.
"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
No credit to us at all sing.
The entire process of Salvation, however you want to divide it, is completely accomplished by the finished work of Christ alone and has nothing to do whatsoever with the abilities of man, true or false Sing?
Sing F Lau
Listen FB friends, I have nothing to do with Piper.
I am only interested with what he has written, and trying to figure out what he is saying.
His words:
"A faith that only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection is not sufficient…. Forgiveness for the Christian also depends on having a futuristic faith in God’s promises."
======
Let us try to understand what he says.
Imagine believer Jonny's faith only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection...
And imagine Denny's faith NOT only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection, BUT ALSO forward to the glorious return of Christ;
Whose faith is fuller or more adequate in granting them hope and comfort?
Their faith have NOTHING to do with their eternal salvation, EXCEPT that it EVIDENCES that eternal salvation by God's free grace. If Piper insist that faith is the necessary instrument to obtain salvation, then he is preaching another gospel.
For him to write 'forgiveness for the Christian ALSO DEPENDS on..." enough to evidence that he preaches ANOTHER gospel. Salvation by grace is just a religious jargon and shibboleth to him!
Keesee
Sing,
"Their faith have NOTHING to do with their eternal salvation..."
"For by grace you have been [saved through faith]..." - Eph 2:8
Do you reject that ?
"For we hold that one is justified [by faith]..." - Rom 3:28
To be Justified is to be redeemed.
"Therefore, since we have been [justified by faith], we have [peace with God] through our Lord Jesus Christ." - Rom 5:1
You are saved through faith Sing.
To reject that is to reject the Gospel.
Sing F Lau
Who is speaking of credit? You have just move the goal post!
Why don't you just admit your careless slander
12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out you...r own salvation with fear and trembling.
========
Sir, 'work out your own salvation.'
Your own salvation need your ACTIVE WORKING OUT.
You don't work, you won't have it!
You don't labor to read and study God's word, you will not enjoy the salvation of knowing the truth... you will suffer the pain of being ignorant, being toss to and fro by every wind of doctrine... God gives your His Scriptures. He does not read it for you... He does not rightly divide it for you... you must slog to study and believe it!
You don't labor to humble, and listen a bit, you won't learn your errors and grow...
I am saying all this generally... not Dennis personally
I am not talking about credit... I am simply stating that there is a temporal salvation that God's children MUST WORK out for themselves (Christ did not work it out for them... otherwise it would be UNIFORM for every child of God... which is obviously not true) - God has enabled them to do so, BUT THEY MUST DO THE DOING. If you want to deny this or cannot agree with this, please state it for all to hear.
Thank you, sir.
Sing F Lau
Dennis, you are just so crippled with sound-byte-itis!
I hope you still have some common sense left.
Consider this most simple and fundamental point:
Faith is a fruit and evidence of eternal salvation already bestowed... UNLESS of course you believe that a person in his native state of trespasses and sins can believe in order to get eternal salvation.
How can faith, which is a fruit and product of eternal salvation already bestowed to an elect, be at the same time, the instrument to obtain that eternal salvation?
The ONLY INSTRUMENTAL role of faith of a man is to EVIDENCE the eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed by God's free grace.
Is that simple enough?
Sing F Lau
"For by grace you have been [saved through faith]..." - Eph 2:8
Do you reject that ?
=====
Whose faith? Yours?
You are crippled by sound-byte-itis!
Its truth is affirmed here. I have to post the link... unless you want me to paste the long answer here. http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html
Sing F Lau
"For we hold that one is justified [by faith]..." - Rom 3:28
To be Justified is to be redeemed.
===========
Amen and amen.
By WHOSE faith? Yours? What is that faith? Your act of believing? Or Christ's faithfulness that secured righteousness?
What is the CONTEXT?
Beware of the epidemic call SOUND-BYTE-ITIS !!!!!
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Sins brought condemnation.
Justification requires RIGHTEOUSNESS... righteousness of Jesus Christ through His faithfulness in the work of redemption!
How did that righteousness come about? How did God provide it? Read what Paul said...
The righteousness of God's provision for the justification of His elect is............ by faith OF OF OF OF OF OF Jesus Christ....
and NOT NOT NOT your faith IN IN IN IN IN IN Jesus Christ.
But what is the faith of Jesus Christ? See verse 24.
The faith of Jesus Christ is His faithfulness in his work of redemption... justification is based on the faith OF Christ... through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.... read the text again!
In this whole section, Paul is demonstrating and proving LEGAL justification by the faith OF OF OF Jesus Christ... i.e his faithfulness in securing the righteousness for the LEGAL justification of His people.
Paul is not speaking of practical or experiential justification, which is indeed through faith IN IN IN IN Jesus Christ.
Keesee
Sing, this is your last chance my friend. You are speaking blasphemy.
"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." - Titus 3:10-11
This is your second and final warning to repent of your false teaching. You -are- self condemned by these words:
"Their faith have NOTHING to do with their eternal salvation..."
This is anti-Christian. (Eph 2:8, Rom 3:28, Rom 5:1, et al.)
"Sir, 'work out your own salvation.'
Your own salvation need your ACTIVE WORKING OUT.
You don't work, you won't have it!"
This is also anti-Christian.
"Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." - Romans 4:4-5
"For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse..." - Gal 3:10
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." - Gal 2:21
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Eph 2:8-9
Sing... Please repent. If you will not, please keep my email address. It's 4wardex@gmail.com
If the Lord grants you repentance I will always be available to reaffirm my love for you.
Brown
It sounds messed up but I'd have to see the context in which it was said. He may be talking about the "once saved, always saved" crowd.
Sing F Lau
Dennis, thanks.
I have said not a little. Saying more would be redundant and a waste. God bless you brother!
I will stop here.
I wouldn't mind your love is you are cured of your sound-byte-itis first, else your love for me may ALSO infect me with the same disease.
God bless you Dennis, and may your eyes be opened a little.
England
Such wisdom and yet such unbelief in God's ability to save all who call upon the name of Jesus.
Sing F Lau
All who call upon the name of Jesus DO SO BECAUSE they have been saved by Jesus Christ with eternal salvation. Without eternal salvation already applied to them personally by God's free grace, they would still be in their native state of sin and death, in enmity and rebellion against God.
Calling upon the name of the Lord is a fruit and effect of the eternal salvation applied personally to such person... thus evidences that glorious eternal salvation by God's free grace!
Dennis thinks this is blasphemy!
Eternal salvation already applied makes possible the calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus and the temporal salvation that results from the calling upon the name of the Lord CANNOT POSSIBLY the same salvation...
Simple and basic... the life that we received from our parents and which enable us to live, and the life that we get through our living our lives given by our parents are two different lives.
Dennis
Sing, you say say that faith has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
That -is- heresy.
Sing F Lau
Dennis, you can repeat that all you want.
Shout louder and more often, and the dead will soon breathe so that their breathing is instrumental in getting them life!
The fact and truth remains: faith is an effect of eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed.
You breath is the fruit and effect of the life given to you.
But you insist that you breath is instrumental in obtaining that life. And that idiotic idea has spawn another more idiotic idea... a dead man is able to breathe in order to get life.
A blind man can never see his own blindness, can he?
Ariyeh
I am still looking for "temporal salvation" that sing sang about a few posts back. That would also imply temporal justification-temporal sanctification-temporal sealing of the Spirit, etc.
Secondly, on another issue is the OSAS statement. I...f a person has been born from above he or she has been given very specific promises and one of those promises is ETERNAL LIFE.
To deny this promise from God's word because one is insecure or has small faith is understandable. But, to deny eternal salvation/eternal life because someone refuses to accept that God saves and He keeps those in His hand, is heretical.
He started the work and He finishes the work. If He says He will complete that which He started then who is man to suggest it impossible?
I am very comfortable saying a man that is saved is always saved. I have no problem saying once saved always saved. The question then becomes, are you saved? Are you truly one of God's? Is justification a process or is it a legal declaration? We can start there.
It would be asinine to throw out this statement because even jellyfish say they are saved. So do the Morons and the JW's. They are no more saved then hoppy toads so why assume they are osas?
The elect of God are secure. He has promised this to His children. Many are called (not once saved or ever saved) and few are elect (saved)
Secondly, on another issue is the OSAS statement. I...f a person has been born from above he or she has been given very specific promises and one of those promises is ETERNAL LIFE.
To deny this promise from God's word because one is insecure or has small faith is understandable. But, to deny eternal salvation/eternal life because someone refuses to accept that God saves and He keeps those in His hand, is heretical.
He started the work and He finishes the work. If He says He will complete that which He started then who is man to suggest it impossible?
I am very comfortable saying a man that is saved is always saved. I have no problem saying once saved always saved. The question then becomes, are you saved? Are you truly one of God's? Is justification a process or is it a legal declaration? We can start there.
It would be asinine to throw out this statement because even jellyfish say they are saved. So do the Morons and the JW's. They are no more saved then hoppy toads so why assume they are osas?
The elect of God are secure. He has promised this to His children. Many are called (not once saved or ever saved) and few are elect (saved)
Sing F Lau
There is an eternal salvation for every elect that has been purposed, secured and applied to each on of them... all by the free and sovereign grace of God.
With regard to eternal salvation, every elect is saved to exactly the same extend and... degree in every sense.
An ignorant child of God is no less justified by the righteousness of Christ, no less regenerated, no less separated from his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, no less destined for eternal glory....than smart theologians like Moshe and Dennis.
Temporal salvation of God's children in this life is conditioned upon many human factors, which is all too plain to notice... some of God's children enjoy a great deal more than others. There are those who sit under a faithful ministry, with vigilance, working out their own salvation!
Oh yes, it is God who works in all His children to will and to do... but God's children respond to that divine working in vastly different measures, thus experiencing vastly different measures of temporal salvation in their lives here on earth.
With regard to eternal salvation, every elect is saved to exactly the same extend and... degree in every sense.
An ignorant child of God is no less justified by the righteousness of Christ, no less regenerated, no less separated from his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, no less destined for eternal glory....than smart theologians like Moshe and Dennis.
Temporal salvation of God's children in this life is conditioned upon many human factors, which is all too plain to notice... some of God's children enjoy a great deal more than others. There are those who sit under a faithful ministry, with vigilance, working out their own salvation!
Oh yes, it is God who works in all His children to will and to do... but God's children respond to that divine working in vastly different measures, thus experiencing vastly different measures of temporal salvation in their lives here on earth.
