A comb of bananas from my garden.Thomas wrote: "Bro. Morrow, are you still an advocate of Amyraldianism - hypothetical univeralism?" My answer below.
Michael
I believe that every human being benefits from the death of Christ else God's justice would have been immediately executed upon the human race at the first sin. I also believe (according to Jesus) that men are condemned because they do not ...believe in the only begotten Son of God. In addition, I believe the the blood of Christ secures the forgiveness of sins and justification before God only for those who believe, or if it suits better, only for the elect. I would really like to see NT examples of Christ, the Apostles, or any other NT preacher not preaching the Gospel freely to any and all who would listen without any reference as to whether they were elect or not. In my opinion an obsession with God's secret decrees can be a subtle pit of pride to justify a fleshly unwillingness to confront all men with the claims of Christ.
Tim
Hey man, after all these years, you are still bellieving it right!
Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow, is it not PRESUMPTUOUS to confront ALL MEN with the claims of Christ as though Christ has died for ALL MEN?
Commanding ALL MEN to believe in Jesus Christ can only be honestly and truthfully said IF ONLY Christ had died for ...ALL MEN. Otherwise, where is the basis of telling that to ALL MEN, and commanding ALL MEN to believe that Jesus Christ died for them?
Surely there must be a way, to tell the truth, and tell it truthfully, and according to what Christ has actually done.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
He did not come to do some preachers will
17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
AS MANY AS..., not one more and not one less.
The method of presenting the truth must be according to the truth of the matter.
There is NO VIRTUE is misrepresenting what Christ has done.
Abraham
@ Michael
You said, "I believe that every human being benefits from the death of Christ else God's justice would have been immediately executed upon the human race at the first sin...."
Did the Devil benefit from the death of Christ because ...he hasn't been cast into the lake of fire yet? Did the man of sin (the anti-Christ) benefit from the death of Christ because he is allowed to deceive many on earth for a time?
The scriptures nowhere teach that Christ must die for some in order to appoint them for wrath in the day of wrath.
If Christ died for those who shall be damned in eternal hell, did He bear all their sins or not? If He bore all their sins, how are they cursed for any of their sins? If He bore some of their sins, how is their eternal redemption even possible if they shall eternally bear some of their sins?
Christ bore the sins of His people in His own body on the tree and those who end up in eternal hell bear all their sins upon themselves because Christ did not bear any of their sins upon Himself.
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." [1 Peter 2:24]
Michael
Sing...is it not presumptuous to not obey Christ and not preach the Gospel to every creature?
You said:" Christ bore the sins of His people in His own body on the tree and those who end up in eternal hell bear all their sins upon themselves because Christ did not bear any of their sins upon Himself."
I agree....but that does not mean that the saving death of Christ is the only benefit of Christ's death. Paul says even the creation itself will be restored when the sons of God are resurrected. That comes because Christ came to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Sing F Lau
I am tempted not to waste my breath repeating the same old things that we have gone through so many times since the days with Brainy Brian and Mighty Morrow!
Proclaiming the good news of what God has done for His people, and exhorting them ......among the audience to believe, knowing consciously that only those that ARE SAVED by God will respond to that gospel call,
IS A WHOLE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE FROM
Offering/Proposing salvation in Jesus Christ to every creature in the audience [of course based on the falsehood that Christ died for all of them], on the condition that if any will believe on Christ, they shall be saved.
WHOSOEVER BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE is the gospel... believing demonstrates the possession of eternal life, i.e. evidences the eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed by free grace.
Calling such to believe the truth of what God HAS DONE for them and what is already true of them, is the right and proper and true work of the preachers. Heralds and messengers announce the good news. They are not sent to HAWK some offers!
Self-sent preachers go around offering salvation to everyone, parading themselves as more large-hearted and generous than God and Christ himself, DECEIVING and LYING to every creature that Christ died for every one of them, and that if any would only believe, he would obtain eternal salvation.
There are heralds of the good news of salvation, and there are HAWKERS of salvation... a world of difference!
As difference as Morrow is from Marrow
Abraham
Michael, Acts 13 was not Paul's only sermon, nor do we have an account of all his sermons or the entirety of his sermons on certain occasions. However, we do have a basic outline in Romans of the gospel He was not ashamed to preach. Paul sp...ent an entire chapter on election and He constantly touched the effectual hope the atonement of Christ.
Many preachers today won't say a peep about God's electing love or Christ's effectual atonement before others. Is this done because it will make their offered opportunity of redemption sound really strange and even cruel? It is a horrifying thought to consider God offering eternal redemption to everyone and only intending to give it to some. This presents God as a spiritual abortionist. [presenting Himself as their redeemer and then aborting them into eternal hell] What a cruel message!
Electing love is implied in every single gospel promise in the scriptures. If one tries to hid God's electing love and His effectual atonement, they rob the child of God of the rich consolations of the gospel. In almost every epistle, Paul began his discourse by touching on election. They had no good reason to hide these glorious truths from God's children... and neither do you.
Sing F Lau
Acts 13:
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
=============
Just who was Paul addressing?
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
Not even Michael could have the same audience! Paul was obviously addressing God's children among the Jews... who were stuck on the Mosaic covenant... "from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."
Abraham
@Michael, You said, "Abraham, the bible clearly teaches that men are condemned because they do not believe in Christ."
Jn 3:17-18 is referring to a condemnation in the conscience. Through faith we are assured that we are not condemned because ...Christ died for us and loved us. Apart from this faith in Him, we lack assurance and we are condemned in our conscience through the terrors of the law exposing our sin. Notice, we are condemned already even before we believe on the name of the only begotten son of God. We remain under condemnation in our conscience until we believe.
It is important to understand that when we were enemies, Christ was not imputing our sins unto us or condemning us because He did not come to condemn the world. He came to love us and redeem us forever. But, until we believe on Him, we will never be assured of His wondrous love for us.
Our faith does not cause God to not condemn us. He never was condemning us. Christ became a curse for us and redeemed us from the curse of the law in great love to our souls while we were sinners. Our sins were condemned upon Christ and therefore God will not charge sin to His elect.
In light of this, we must understand that we are only condemned in our conscience through the terrors of the law until we believe on Christ. The ground of that condemnation is our love of darkness and the evidence that we are in that condemnation is that we do not believe on the name of the only begotten son of God. In other words, it is evident that one is condemned in their conscience because they have not believed on Christ.
Sing F Lau
.but my preaching a free Gospel of grace to those who will not come is a cause for great condemnation...the message is to some a savour of life unto life and unto others a savour of death unto death. But it is a savour to both!
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Preaching the glorious gospel is NOT NOT NOT a cause for great condemnation.
The decomposition and stench of a carcass is not caused by the life-nourishing bright shining sun! It only reveals and manifests the deadness of the carcass!
If it is a cause for condemnation, then it must be A CAUSE for salvation too, in the same, but opposite sense!
But that would be great error!
Abraham
"I do believe there is a sense in which Christ bore the wrath of God for the human race."
It is important to clarify that Christ did not bear the wrath for those who perish in hell because he did not bear their sins. Christ was cursed for t...he actual sins of actual persons. He was not made a curse for those who perish in hell in that he was not cursed in bearing the guilt and charge of their sins.
Furthermore, in as much as Christ did not bear the sins of those who perish in hell, their eternal redemption is utterly impossible. Therefore, there is no sense whatsoever that Christ died to offer an opportunity of eternal redemption for everyone that ever lived.
Sing F Lau
Mighty Morrow, it is not right to slander me and than say, I leave it there! That's ain't no brotherly at all.
Maybe you still don't understand. Just because I say I preach the gospel consistent with what the Bible says about the free and full salvation in Jesus Christ, you slander me as hedging when I preach the gospel.
I don't need to hedge the gospel at all when I declare the gospel as the good news of what God has done to save His people in Jesus Christ, and that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES has eternal life, i.e. their believing EVIDENCES the eternal salvation that has been bestowed upon such by the free grace of God.
So where is the hedging that you so kindly accuse me of? Do you see the Apostle Paul ever hedging? He didn't need to because his message and his method are CONSISTENT!
There is no need for hedging because the good news is only intended, and relevant to those whom God has ALREADY bestowed salvation.
On the contrary, it is you who are telling you hearers a pack of lies and half-truth when you preach and offer salvation to all men indiscriminately on condition of their faith! I have pointed them out already... but you would not care... you still go on your own way!
And I won't leave you there. I care!
And don't de-friend me AGAIN!
Michael
I don't see it anywhere in the NT where the Gospel was preached to the lost. The church of Christ think they have to include Baptism in the Gospel. Arminians think they have to add works to the Gospel. You seem to think that Election must always be preached when the Gospel is preached. I do not. I believe the preaching of Christ and His work is enough.
Now do I teach the deep things of God to my people? Of course...as deeply as I know. But in evangelism I have purposed to know nothing among people but Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and leave the hedging and selecting up to God.
Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow, you mean to say that I am hedging when I actually unpacking "whosoever believes has eternal life'... when I explain that God so loved that he gave His only begotten Son... such that He obtained redemption and eternal life for His people... telling them where eternal life come from... and how that eternal life is manifested?
And you claim that you preach the gospel without hedging when you keep your hearers ignorant of these gospel FACTS. What gospel is that? If you don't preach these gospel FACTS, facts of what God has done in Christ and where and how the eternal life that enables believing come about, then you are ACTUALLY DELIBERATELY withholding the good news of what God has done for His people from His people!
So many preachers DELIBERATELY lie to their hearers by leaving the impression that their believing is the means to obtain/possess eternal life!
I am not hedging. You are hiding the gospel truth from the hearers! Hedger hider! Nice rhyme huh!
Sing F Lau
But in evangelism, I have purposed to know nothing among people but Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and leave the hedging and selecting up to God.
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You preach Christ and Him crucified! Very good!
Why was he crucified? For sins. For whose sins? Tell the hearers the truth. Don't leave them to believe lies.
Crucified for whom? Tell the truth. Don't lie to the hearers.
What did his crucifixion achieve? Redemption? Whose redemption? All? Then offer to all!
Who is Jesus Christ? Why did he come? To save! Save who? Tell the truth. Don't lie to the hearers.
You can preach Christ and Him crucified without proclaiming those gospel facts! What a wonder! Shibboleth is not enough, gospel, peddler!
Michael
Abraham
"You go ahead and hedge up every gospel message you preach to make sure no one gets confused and comes to Christ by accident... you are hedging up putting a fence around the Gospel message..."
Michael, are you concerned that election will make a hedge that keeps people from thinking redemption is an offered opportunity? Jesus was not concerned about this, because He never preached His eternal redemption as an offered opportunity or a message to condemn people.
Jesus preached on His election of grace before people who considered it a hard saying. Does this offend you?
[emphasis added for clarification]
"ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." [John 6:37-39]
"Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And THEY SHALL BE ALL TAUGHT OF GOD. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." [John 6:43-45]
"These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, THIS IS AN HARD SAYING; WHO CAN HEAR IT? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, DOTH THIS OFFEND YOU? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH; THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER." [John 6:59-65]
"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I LAY DOWN MY LIFE FOR THE SHEEP. And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, which are not of this fold: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, AND THEY SHALL HEAR MY VOICE; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." [John 10:15-16]
"But ye believe not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." [John 10:26-29]
Abraham
"...you are hedging up putting a fence around the Gospel message making sure you don't leave out "eternal salvation.' I don't see Paul doing that with the Philippian jailer."
What's wrong with preaching that salvation is eternal? Paul preached much more than that to the Phillippian Jailor. Many of the epistles to church comfort us with election in the first chapter. Election was never treated as a hedge in the epistles. But, it certainly does hedge up a strong wall against the false message of Jesus trying to redeem everyone that ever lived by offering an atonement that may not even cover their sins.
[Emphasis added for clarification]
1 Corinthians [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter] "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But GOD HATH CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and GOD HATH CHOSEN the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, HATH GOD CHOSEN, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE. But OF HIM ARE YE IN CHRIST JESUS, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." [1 Corinthians 1:26-31]
Galatians [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter] "But when it pleased God, WHO SEPARATED ME FROM MY MOTHER'S WOMB, AND CALLED ME BY HIS GRACE, TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood." [Galatians 1:15-16]
Ephesians [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter] "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: HAVING PREDESTINATED US unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein HE HATH MADE US ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED." [Ephesians 1:3-6]
1 and 2 Thessalonians [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter of the first epistle and again in the second chapter of the second epistle.] "Knowing, brethren beloved, YOUR ELECTION OF GOD." [1 Thessalonians 1:4] "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because GOD HATH FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN YOU TO SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." [2 Thessalonians 2:13]
2 Timothy [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st and 2nd Chapter] "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN." [2 Timothy 1:9] "Therefore I endure all things FOR THE ELECT'S SAKES, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." [2 Timothy 2:10]
Titus [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter]
"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE FAITH OF GOD'S ELECT, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN." [Titus 1:1-2]
The Epistle to the Hebrews [Distinguishing Grace is brought up in the first 2 Chapters] "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for THEM WHO SHALL BE HEIRS OF SALVATION?" [Hebrews 1:14] "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and THE CHILDREN WHICH GOD HATH GIVEN ME." [Hebrews 2:11-13]
1 and 2 Peter [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter] "ELECT ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE ["pre-arrangement" - Thayer's Greek] of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." [1 Peter 1:2] "Wherefore the rather, brethren, GIVE DILIGENCE TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." [2 Peter 1:10]
The Gospel of John and 2 John [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter.] "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [John 1:12-13] "The elder unto THE ELECT LADY and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth." [2 John 1:1] "The children of thy ELECT SISTER greet thee. Amen." [2 John 1:13]
Sing F Lau
I am saying that "Christ Crucified for sinners" is the message...
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Yes, Christ died for sinners. And don't you have to explain that religious slogan, so that your hearers know what you are saying?
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
How did He save? He lived and died in their place. Now, that is good news.
And what is the state of the sinners that he came to save? Dead in trespasses and sins - in enmity against God, in rebellion... willing servants and slaves of sins. Gospel most eloquently preached is foolishness to such.
And what did he do to sinners that he came to save? He gave them eternal life... and they hear His voice.
And WHOSOEVER BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE....
Michael
Michael
Abraham... I believe every scripture you quoted and all the rest of the Bible as well.
Sing F Lau
You must preach it as you believe it and I will do the same
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That's a sleepy conclusion to this discussion
If I am wrong, you must persuade me. How can you leave me in my error? I won't do that to you!
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
But the way you preach it is inconsistent and misleading even though you are genuinely sincere!
Sleep well? It is exactly NOON now in this corner of the world.
You sleep well, brother and ready for the morrow!
Asa
Sing, regardless of who is right or wrong here, I must say that you should be ashamed of your manner of conversation with all the sarcastic remarks and caricatures of those whom you speak with. It is not just this conversation either. I've seen a lot of your posts. I pray the Lord would open your eyes to this matter because even if you understood all mysteries and all knowledge and have not love, you are a clanging cymbal.
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves" (2 Timothy 2:25)
Asa, thanks for your kind words.
However, I don't even know you, but I have known and converse with Michael for a long long time and we have discussed about these related issues on more occasions than you can count!
I don't pretend to understand much of the Bible... so there is no need for such irrelevant frivolities. However, the little I do understand, I want to hold to them consistently... and that is the point of my discussion with Michael.
Why, if I come across sarcastic to you... even Paul uses sarcasm sometimes when he reasons and wrestles with his recipients!
Michael
It is true Asa. Sing and I have talked about these things in other chat rooms etc. When we found Facebook we just continued the 15 year-long discussions here. I think Sing has a sharp pen at times...but then you should see the things I have said to him. I have not always been filled with charity I am afraid. Thank you for reminding us both that our comments are up for the world to see and that we should maintain civility and not call one another liars and unlawful sons of our Baptist fathers. One of the things about this internet relationship is that I can constantly show Sing where he is wrong and he never misses a beat...he always comes back for more. ( I know that last statement will set him off) :). Do pray for all of us who try to give out our beliefs here that we will be filled with the sweet Spirit of Christ and that the world will know that HE lives because we love one another. Thank you again.
