A group of fellow hikers and good friends.l-r: sing, alice, john, boey, vikesh, ananda raj, arriffin.
There are 3 Christians, 1 Roman Catholic, 1 Sikh, 1 Hindu and 1 Muslim in this group of 7 hikers.
And they are 3 Chinese, 2 Tamils, a Punjabi and a Malay.
A Jew would make the group complete!
This Lord's Day we are looking at Romans 1:7- to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints. What IS a saint? Is it a person who does 3 miracles according to SNL's Father Guido Sarducci or is it a "positional" standing before God because of His righteousness credited to our account. You know this!
March 3 at 3:51am ·
Sing F Lau
In the epistle to the Romans, Paul addressed them SAINTS even though they were in desperate and urgent need of hearing the gospel, the good news of what God has done that made them SAINTS!
They are already BELOVED OF GOD... and yet they have NOT heard of the gospel, ...and were in urgent need to hear the gospel from Paul... the good news of what God has done in Jesus Christ that made them beloved of God!
The gospel informs God's children what God has done to turn them from justly condemned rebels in enmity against God into saints and beloved of God.
Go figure!
Sing F Lau
Positional standing before God because of His righteousness credited to them.... BEFORE they have even heard the gospel from Apostle Paul.
A student of God's word will take note of this point.
Michael
Help me here Sing. Doesn't Romans 16:3-16 indicate that these saints had already received the Gospel through others and that Paul is simply giving them his inspired account of it? After all, he says:
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
Surely these two knew the Gospel and were there in Rome with these saints and surely they had given them the truth.
5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Epaenetus was a saved man and knew the Gospel...he was the first one to be saved in Achaia.
6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Anddronicus and Junia were in Christ before Paul and were of note among the Apostles. Surely they knew the Gospel before Paul wrote Romans.
8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord.
Here are a whole group of people who are said to be "in the Lord" and Tryphena and Tryphosa are said to "labour in the Lord." Surely they knew the Gospel before Paul wrote Romans.
Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
Persis laboured much in the Lord...what was he doing if he was not giving the Gospel?
13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
I think your assumption that these people ( making up several Roman congregations ) were not converted until Paul wrote to them is bad exegesis and is really imposing your hobby horse on a passage that will not hold it.
I just wanted to give you something to think about.
Sing F Lau
Morrow, you don't need help. You need to slay your sacred cow. Thought through that long ago.
I don't make the statement so loosely. Statements I make have gone through crucibles of intense cross-examination.
Go, do some thinking. You may resolve... the seeming contradiction between those in Rome who were in urgent need to hear the gospel from Paul, and those specific people to whom Paul sent personal greetings.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
It is bad exegesis that makes Paul appears like a presumptuous idiot... faking urgency and great indebtedness to preach to a people who had already heard and believed the gospel.
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
Paul is a man of integrity and honesty. Let Paul be true, and every gospel regeneration preacher a liar!
I don't have a hobby horse. You have a sacred cow!
Is gospel regeneration your sacred cow!
Michael
Dear Brother...there is no "seeming contradiction." Paul simply burned with a desire to give a document of Gospel truth to the Roman "Christians" certainly not so that they, being unconverted would become converted, but rather so that they ...(and we) might have a written account of the glorious Gospel he preached. Neither I nor the book of Romans makes Paul appear like a presumptuous idiot...I had not thought of such a thing...I certainly did not say nor do I believe that he "faked urgency." All of that is coming out of your own mind.
Now...what all this has to do with Gospel Regeneration is beyond me. I did not see that at issue at all...except that it IS you hobby horse. I believe in Spirit regeneration and I believe that God uses men and donkeys and all creation to proclaim His word and will. The issue I was dealing with is that you seemed determined to make the Roman Christians unconverted until Paul wrote them this letter and I was simply pointing out that the internal evidence was otherwise.
Moshe
Sing, I will ask you, are you a preterist? Is this true?
Are you a Primitive Baptist?
I would like you to answer these questions with a yes or no.
Sing F Lau
One basic rule: liberty to inquire is yours.
How your inquiry is answered in not yours to dictate.
What is a preterist? Honest question. Please tell me what it is to help me answer your question.
And what is a Primitive Baptist?
I have never used such labels.
You apparently love labels. Which labels [plural] suit you? Or do you have one label that is broad enough to describe you?
Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow, do you still believe in gospel regeneration, i.e. gospel preaching is a necessary instrument for the Spirit of God to regenerate the dead? Or is the gospel ministry for the CONVERSION of God's children?
From Paul's own words, he was writing to Romans... 'Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints..." who were in urgent need of hearing the gospel. These were the recipients of his epistles.
Those mentioned in Rom 16 were entirely different... they were most likely people Paul have met and ministered to in his extensive ministry throughout the Roman empire thus far, and had ended up in Romans.
If you keep the two groups distinguished, then you would not end up making Paul an idiot faking urgency and indebtedness when there is none.
Moshe
I have asked Mr. Sing to answer 2 simple and direct questions.
1. Are you a Preterist and
2. Are you a Primitive Baptist.
His answer? Look above. See how a devil avoids a question so simple and so direct.
There is no use talking to a man who will not go on record with his belief system. He turned the questions around to avoid his heretical positions.
A simple yes or no is typical for a genuine Christian. Would anyone here not agree that we should wear our beliefs on our sleeves per se? I believe this is how martyrs become martyrs.
Can you imagine a Judge asking Paul specific and direct questions and he answers with Mr sing's response "Please tell me what it is to help you answer your question." Would Paul have been able to avoid martyrdom if he chose his words carefully like Mr. sing?
"Your honor, I don't hold to any systems, I just believe everything took place in 70 AD."
No Mr.Sing, we don't play with theology this way. You know darn well what you believe and you know if it is attached to any theological "system"
When you are asked specific questions as a professing Christian then you are obligated to give direct answers. Unless you think you are the Messiah. Do not try to hide behind "I never use such labels".
A devil cannot go on record with his satanic beliefs because once you document your theology you must in turn be able to defend your theology. Preterism is heresy! I am through with dealing with deceitful men.
Laura
AMEN Moshe!!!!
I used to have a friend that accepted the devil's Preterism and trying to get a forthright, honest answer from her was like pulling teeth.
When you have the truth, you want to shout it from the rooftops not try and disguise it... so it becomes more palatable. But of course, when you are trying to poison someone, you always mix the arsenic in with the kool aid.
Michael
Sing, I believe God regenerates men. I do not believe they are regenerated without the Gospel. God calls men to preach that Gospel and, quoting Paul, God has chosen the foolishness of the message preached to save them that believe Peter said that men were born of the word of God.Then he said that this word was by the gospel preached unto them. If that is what a Gospel regenerationist is, then stamp it on my forehead. I am in pretty good company.
Sing F Lau
Moshe, I asked you to define what a preterist so that I can answer your question, and then you call me a devil! That's real smart! May be a Jew thinks he has that divine right and authority!
It is bad enough to call a brother a fool without a cause. And you have called me a devil... and you are a Jew.
Then I read that you wrore, "Your honor, I don't hold to any systems, I just believe everything took place in 70 AD."
I get a clue from your words that a preterist is probably someone who believes that everything took place in 70AD.
If that is what make a preterist, I am 100% NOT a preterist.
I do believe something momentous did happen in 70AD - the old geriatric earthly theocratic Israel was abolished for good, never to be restored [and I know a Jew like you would be very mad because I state this plain truth!]
I also believe a great deal will yet happen at the end of the gospel age. I know I believe such because I just preached those things from Paul's 2nd epistles to the Thessalonians.
So, what label is suitable? Can you invent one?
Sing F Lau
Morrow, are you able to distinguish the gospel as the means of converting God's children, and gospel as the means of regenerating the spiritually dead? Do you see a difference between the two distinct truth taught in the Scriptures?
If you are not able or don't want to, then no discussion is possible.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sing F Lau
"Denunciation is the last resort of a defeated opponent" Pink.
Moshe
I plan on dumping you. I have not received any Christian fruit from you. I hope others follow my lead.
[Not in love with you at all... so dumping is a non issue! Go ahead if it suits you. So childish! - sing]
Moshe
Sing, the fact that people have to dance around to get you to give straight answers is the issue at large.
Dennis already dealt with you and your heretical positions. But you keep coming back because you just want to prove you are one of us....... You are a hybrid preterist and you are a primitive baptist.
[You are presumptuously mistaken that I want to prove to be one of you and Dennis... how misguided? I am doing the opposite because you and Dennis are quite mistaken about God's purpose for theocratic Israel!]
I will ask you again, do you have a 3rd ordinance of footwashing? Yes or No? Do you believe we are to maintain footwashing?
Denunciation is what Christians are commanded to do in the light of Pauls' words. Heretics ARE defeated opponents. Divisive men are opponents.
You have done nothing but argue with pretty much everything someone says. why don't you go and play with the Muslim crowd? Are they not in your area? Don't you think you should deal with them first? Or has your God given you a special gift among the saints to be our doctrinal police?
Hmmm, I would call that divisive. Unless of course you wear a white cape that has a HS on it on while you ride in on everybody's conversations on your white horse. You cannot agree with others because YOU are the outcast. We all agree. It is YOU who has the on-going issues with what everyone says.
Sing F Lau
Moshe, it is basic courtesy in discussion to listen... and not putting words into people's mouth. If you can't do that, you should just SHUT UP.
And what have I to do with footing washing as an ordinance? You are a sick man, with sick presumptions, and given to accusation. You just want to build little boxes to put people in. And you come across as a Primitive Baptists hater! Did they wrong you personally? Why such animosity against them?
You are so sick and so full of assumptions! What make you think I am a Primitive Baptist, or practices foot washing as an ordinance! No wonder the Jews were a pain in the neck to Apostle Paul! Why throw around labels that I have never own
