Which is covered with invigorating snow, and... killer ash?
The erroneous distinctions leading to a load of confusion!
Dennis posted
A self professed Christian just said that I try too hard to seperate faith and works... Praise God!
I am glad that enemies of Truth actually realize that I am separating them. The Gospel is one of pure and free grace alone, apart from works. Works and faith are absolutely antithetical.
"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:2
Sunday at 1:26am
Holbrook
Works are proof of spiritual fruit to ourselves and proof and testimony of our faith to others, but do not contribute to our salvation before God. A faith without works is a dead faith.
Houston
Yet Jesus said we would be Judged by our works and words. Why? Because a man speaks and does what he really believes. His works can never justify him but his works are evidence of his faith. An apple can never be the life in a tree but an apple is evidence the tree is alive.
Dennis
Rondey, you have to be careful with that language.
Are you saying that our works and our words will determine whether we are saved or not?
Brugger
"Works of The Law" a third use of the term 'works' seperate and different than mankinds or ones own works, and seperate and different from Godly or God's Works,, Lest we do our works according to His Way or Will rather than our own ways and means, or according to the Policies of the then pharisees and scribes and other jews we work in vain.
Brown
I might add faith without God ordained works is dead :-) hope you and Chip are feeling better or get weller soon lol :-)
Brugger
There I go trying to make my self a righteous part of His Body by proper use of His Grace Mercy and Wisdom that cannot be bought or manufactured by our selves.
Dennis
David, Would you agree with this statement:
There is no work that a sinner can do to earn salvation?
Houston
Never! Justification comes by faith alone in the cross of Christ. But a person truly Justified will have a new nature that evidences by words and actions that he has been Justified. I am saying good works follows genuine faith as naturally as an apple grows on an apple tree.
Brugger
Thats what I am talking about Stephen.
Houston
Here is an interesting passage on the subject.
Matt. 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Brugger
Faith is a work or a Fruit, so if you don't have Faith, nothing will save you, and just saying you have either is enough, must actually be True,, Grace and Truth come by Christ Jesus,, why does The World refuse to allow Him to guide us In T...ruth rather than just making it what they call 'spiritual' rather than seeking Truth rather than just the counting The Offer as a done deal..
I know I am Radical, therefore to call myself a Christian Citizen of His Kingdom I had to renounce alliegence to other realms.
His Grace may be enough, but please do not deny that we could be led to walk In His Truth from there.
Houston
Faith is the root, works are the fruit.
Brown
Actually Christ faithfulness is the root of "ALL" graces and further more this was decided in the covenant of grace before "time" and the world began. As it is written not that we love God but that He loved is (His own) and sent His Son to die for us (those whom He set His love upon) and in Him have we become the sons of God.
Houston
@Steven--Ok if we are going to split hairs here. :) When we speak of faith it must have an object. Faith in the context of Christianity always has Jesus Christ as the object. This same faith is also a gift of God. So the Gift of faith by Jesus Christ in Jesus Christ is the root and the only way to produce fruit.
Sing F Lau
No work is needed for eternal glory.
God's works alone is all that is needed for eternal glory.
Eternal salvation is completely and wholly and solely of the triune God alone.
... 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The works of the redeemed, including faith, is needed for their temporal salvation here on earth.
Faith, man's activity of believing is work too!
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Eternal salvation is based on the redemptive work of Jesus Christ alone.
Temporal salvation is based on the faith and works of those ALREADY redeemed by free grace.
There is a FALSE distinction between faith and works, and there is a biblical distinction between faith and works.
BOTH faith and works are EVIDENCES and EFFECTS of eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed by free grace ALONE.
Dennis
Sing, Do you consider faith to be a work?
Skiles
I don't worry about salvation - I do good works for nothing.
Sing F Lau
What is the faith you are talking about? I don't pretend to know.
Anyway my answer is here. You missed it.
...Faith, man's activity of believing is work too!
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The inquirers want to DO... DO... DO... that they might WORK... WORK... WORK... the works of God.
Jesus replied directly to the inquiry thus: the work of God, i.e. they inquired about the WORKS of God, Christ pointed out the missing WORK (singular) in them... even the WORK of believing in Christ.
Yes, man's activity of believing in Christ is a work God requires of His CHILDREN.
BOTH... BOTH ... BOTH works and faith are EVIDENCES and EFFECTS of eternal salvation already bestowed by free grace, and both are needed for a child of God (become one by free grace ALONE) for his temporal salvation, his well-being here on earth.
Dennis
Kate, I thank God for keeping people like you from the desires within their heart.
Apart from the grace of God that He pours out upon those who hate Him, we would live in a constant state of chaos and anarchy.
God keeps people that hate Him from being as bad as they would naturally be.
The desires of your heart are only wicked continually and the only reason you appear to do anything 'good' is because God is causing you to for His own purposes.
You are self-deceived unfortunately. You may have become quite good at convincing yourself that you are pretty good, but before a Holy God your as filthy as it comes.
And I was too before God broke through my hatred of Him and saved me.
He can forgive your sin too, I urge you to call on the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and be reconciled to God.
He is more of a Savior than you are a sinner, to be sure.
Much love, I will pray for you more often.
Dennis
Sing, with respect, I would just like as simple answer.
Is faith a work performed by man or not?
...
Yes, No, or I don't know.
Scripture does tell us, so I expect a teacher of God's people to know the answer.
Sing F Lau
Dennis, liberty to inquire is yours.
Replying in mine. And I will gladly reply every worthy question.
There is a distinction between faith and believing.
Your question really ought to be"
"Is believing a work performed by man or not?
To that I answer in the affirmative.
Never mind, I will answer your question as it stands.
Faith is a saving grace worked by the Spirit of God in a child of God, along with all other saving graces. This saving grace of faith is drawn forth through the gospel ministry, and evidenced itself in the human act of believing.
You can choose where to slot my brief reply into the 3 alternative you offered.
I have learned not to use that approach - yes, no, I don't know. At least include one more if you have to insist on that method... others.
Dennis
The Greek word translated as 'faith' and believe is the same, it's 'pistis.'
I would encourage you not to draw any strict distinction between the two.
You still didn't answer me though. In your understanding of 'works' in the Bible, is faith... a 'work' or not?
Please try to offer a clearer answer if you can.
Sing F Lau
"Scripture does tell us, so I expect a teacher of God's people to know the answer."
There is one basic thing that the RBs and others are woefully blinded to. I speak as a ex-RBs for 20 years.
Christ's righteousness and man's work are contrasted in the context of eternal salvation - how condemned sinners are saved.
Believing in Christ and the works of observing the old covenant ceremonial laws are contrasted in the context of temporal and experiential justification - how God's children will experience the blessedness of their eternal salvation by God's free grace. This was basically a Jewish problem.
A teacher of God's people who does not see this distinction ought to be ashamed.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Dennis
I do not claim to be an 'RB' for the sake of confusing myself with the false system of Covenant Theology.
Sing F Lau
So, faith is a work of bearing fruit?
========
What a bewildering question!
Believing in Jesus Christ IS ITSELF a fruit of the eternal salvation bestowed by God's free grace.
A fruit cannot possibly be a work bearing fruit.
I have never heard of fruit bearing fruit. I am a farmer. It is always a tree bearing fruit.
Works of obedience is also a fruit of the eternal salvation bestowed by God's free grace.
BOTH works and faith are fruit/evidences/manifestation of eternal salvation bestowed by free grace.
Both are manifested by God's children to vastly varying degree - some none.
Dennis
Sing, Fruit of the Spirit can only come after Regeneration, it can not bring it about.
Believing is not a fruit of the Spirit, it is a prerequisite to have the Spirit to begin with.
Sing F Lau
Fruit of the Spirit can only come after Regeneration, it can not bring it about.
Believing is not a fruit of the Spirit, it is a prerequisite to have the Spirit to begin with.
==========
Let me make sure I understand what you are saying:
In your statement above, is that a distinction between 'regeneration' and 'have the Spirit'?
What is the relationship between them? Please tell us.
Does a regenerate have the Spirit of adoption dwelling in him,
OR must a regenerate believe first before the Spirit of adoption is given to him, i.e in order to have the Spirit?
Dennis
The Spirit dwelling in you is what Regenerates you, there can be no distinction. You cannot have spiritual life apart from the Spirit.
Sing F Lau
Thank you very much for the clarification.
Now please put these two statements of yours side by side, and tell us if they are consistent.
Statement 1:
Believing is not a fruit of the Spirit, it is a prerequisite to have the Spirit to begin with.
Statement 2:
The Spirit dwelling in you is what Regenerates you, there can be no distinction. You cannot have spiritual life apart from the Spirit.
Please show us that the 2 statements are consistent.
Otherwise restate them. Then I will discuss with you the truthfulness of those two statements.
I am only trying to understand you.
I believe BOTH statement are inaccurate at best. After you have considered them properly, I will explain what the two statement tell me. Then you can respond whether your statement say so.
Have a good night rest. I am off to work.
Dennis
I think I was trying the same thing in a different way, but I failed.
I think my contention here is that Paul makes faith/believe antithetical with work/fruit and my conclusion is then: believing cannot be a fruit or a work, lest we boast.
The outward expression -of- that belief that manifests in an appeal to God for a good conscience or some other outward expression of that belief is proof to others that you have been given the Spirit, but not proof to God for justification.
Does that help to clarify?
David
Does this from The Christ's Lawful Assembly fit this discussion?
1 Timothy 6:12, "Fight the good fight of faith [Action]"
Here, Paul expresses "faith" as an action, as something we are to fight for. Here is another verse which describes "fai...th" as a "fruit," or as a godly work:
Galatians 5:22, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance…"
As you can see, scripture defines "faith" as a fruit. Scripture places "faith" in the same category as godly works. Therefore, if godly works is a verification of being a child of God, faith is also an evidence of being a child of God.
Those who say we are saved by faith only are full of half truths. Look at these passages:
James 2:24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:17, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
In other words, the relationship between faith and works is so close that in fact they are one entity.
James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
Lord we believe, help our unbelief,,,
Sing F Lau
James 2:24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
=======
Take a peep here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/by-faith-alone-vs-not-by-faith-alone.html
Dennis
Sing and David, I do agree that the outworking -of- faith is a fruit of the Spirit, but we also hear in Scripture that faith is a gift that is not of ourselves lest we boast. We also hear that the Spirit is granted and brings about regenerat...ion at the hearing of the Gospel. Sing does not like that at all for some reason, but Scripture teaches it:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for [it is the power of God for salvation] to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." - Rom 1:16
"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:2
"Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:5
"While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who [heard the word.]" - Acts 10:44
The implication here is that the Spirit comes by hearing with a faith that is supplied by God.
When a person responds to the gospel, that is an outworking of the faith that God gives, the response to the gospel does not bring about faith and regeneration, it's the other way around. The faith is already there, regeneration has already taken place and therefore the natural instinct of a person with the Spirit is to respond properly to the gospel.
This is what James is speaking of:
"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
James is addressing people who are saying they have faith, but their deeds to not back up their statement.
"You [Christians] see [with your physical eyes] that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
This means you can claim to have faith all day, but if no one can see it in action they are not obligated to accept your profession.
Abraham was certainly justified before God before Isaac was born and yet it was not until the situation with Isaac that God chose to record the event with Abraham to prove to his progeny that he was not just a man of talking, but also of doing.
He was justified or vindicated before men through his action, that is why God accounts it, so that we Christians can see in Scripture that Abraham was justified by faith alone when he believed and we would further see that a genuinely saved man will act like one when God tests Him.
Much love,
Sing F Lau
That's a long one!
I will chew it bit by bit and make it short. But that means several nibbles.
"I do agree that the outworking -of- faith is a fruit of the Spirit, but we also hear in Scripture that faith is a gift that is not of ourselves lest we boast. We also hear that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel. Sing does not like that at all for some reason, but Scripture teaches it:
=========
The grace of faith IS IS IS a fruit of the Spirit. The out-working of that grace is the obedient response of a child of God. The former is wrought in every regenerate in exactly the same manner and degree. The latter differ vastly among the regenerate. Some manifests NONE - those who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word.
Faith, i.e. the act of believing, comes by hearing. No hearing, whether because of ability or opportunity, no believing.
Understand?
The outworking of faith is believing. The grace of faith is worked WITHIN the regenerated, along with all other saving graces. The grace of faith is manifested in the act of believing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The grace of faith is not a gift. Gift come from WITHOUT. A saving grace is worked WITHIN a child of God (a regenerated elect). The gift spoken of Eph 2:9 is eternal salvation by FREE GRACE, and the faith there is the faith of Jesus Christ as stated in Roman 3:22.
Rom 3
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
The faith OF Jesus Christ in v22 and the redemption that is in Christ Jesus in v24 are intimately related. The faith of Christ, i.e. his faithfulness in his redeeming work secured the righteousness needed for the redemption of His people.
Eph 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
If you care, read here on an explanation o Eph 2:9: "Saved by grace through faith, whose faith?"
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html.
Brother, with due respect, time to be cured from the common disease called SOUND-BYTE-ITIS! So many are distracted by the SOUND of the words, and miss the SENSE of the words.
And this is just a small nibble on the big chunk you served
Sing F Lau
Just another little nibble.
"We also hear that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel. Sing does not like that at all for some reason, but Scripture teaches it:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for [it is the power of God for salvation] to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." - Rom 1:16
======
You should really do better.
In which of the above text does it say that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration? Please demonstrate! It is one thing to quote and another to prove your assertion!
There is none in Rom 1:16.
In fact apostle Paul called those Romans who have not heard the gospel, and to whom he was earnestly and urgently desirous to preach the gospel... pay attention to what he called them even though they have not heard the gospel:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
He called them 'called of Jesus Christ, beloved of God, and called to be saints.' You insist that these are still dead in trespasses and sins, i.e not regenerated because the gospel has not been preached to them.
And just in case you imagine that they have heard the gospel from somewhere else, let Paul himself rebuke you:
"Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation."
The others passage say nothing about your assertion.
You should really do better.
Dennis
Sing, "The grace of faith IS IS IS a fruit of the Spirit."
The faith itself is given as a gift and then as a result of having that faith we act faithfully. Abraham is -the- example of this. Because he was given faith, he was able to demonstrate it by acting faithfully towards God.
"The outworking of faith is believing."
I think we agree here. A profession -of- faith is proof that regeneration has occurred and that God has granted a person the gift of faith.
"The grace of faith is manifested in the act of believing the gospel of Jesus Christ."
I would respond the same way as above.
Thank you again for replying.
Please do not add links to your posts from now on. I appreciate your willingness to comment, but I have a rule of thumb to forbid all links. Normally, I delete them but I want to respect your time in writing the post and offer you a fair warning. I do this to limit my potential to lead others to websites that I have not approved or do not trust. I hope you understand.
Sing F Lau
"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:2
"Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:5
=======
Apostle Paul is dealing with experiential justification! Did they experience the blessedness by believing in Christ (hearing with faith) or by observing old covenant ceremonies (works of the law)? They have to ADMIT that it was simply by believing, and not by their observing the ceremonial laws, like they have been misled by the misguided believing Jews.
"While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who [heard the word.]" - Acts 10:44
If what you want to make this passage to say - the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel - then you must conclude that Cornelius was not a regenerated man, a man still dead in trespasses and sins, before Peter came to preach the gospel to him!
May the Lord open your eyes to see the PLAIN facts recorded in Acts 10 about Cornelius.
Sing F Lau
Thanks for your kind warning about linking.
I just thought that is easier, rather than saying the same thoughts. I have no fear of what I see as errors. They give me opportunity to put truth beside them and let people decide for themselves. When they wrestle with errors, they become more settled in their belief.
I have confidence in the ability of God's children, indwelt by the Spirit of God, to discern truth for themselves. Just set the issues before them... and they will learn the truth and grow up in grace and knowledge.
That's my approach and philosophy.
BUT I will respect your wish.
Dennis
Sing, Sing, Sing,
"In which of the above text does it say that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration? Please demonstrate!"
"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" - Ga...l 3:2
To receive the Spirit it to be Regenerate.
"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, [not because of works] done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of [regeneration] and renewal [of the Holy Spirit]..." - Titus 3:4-5
"In fact apostle Paul called those Romans who have not heard the gospel..."
Wrong my friend. He addresses his letter to:
"all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints"
To all that are thee who are loved by God and called.
Paul's statement of his desire to come and preach the gospel is proof of the ongoing ministry of teaching the gospel to saints. It does not mean he wanted to come and preach so that they would be saved, they were already 'saints.'
The Gospel can be taught to believers as well as proclaimed:
"...Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a [preacher] and apostle and [teacher]..." - 1 Tim 1:10-11
The gospel includes milk and meat.
Dennis
"If what you want to make this passage to say - the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel - then you must conclude that Cornelius was not a regenerated man, a man still dead in trespasses and sins, before Peter came to preach the gospel to him!"
Sing, I would say that because Cornelius was a God-fearer before Peter came that he already had the Spirit. We don't have a lot of information in the narrative about his spiritual condition. For all we know he was regenerate before Christ came aka 'circumcised of heart.'
The pouring out of the Spirit in Acts 10 did two things. It brought about regeneration for those who needed it and granted the gift of tongues so that Peter would be convinced that God his willing that Gentiles come to Christ.
Dennis
And Sing, I believe that the gospel was preached to Abraham (cf. Gal 3:8) and that enough was revealed about the gospel to Adam and Eve to be sufficient for saving faith to be granted upon hearing the promises of Christ to come. (Gen 3:15)
I have no problem with believing:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for [it] is the power of God for salvation to [everyone who believes]..." - Rom 1:16
Sing F Lau
If you believe that the gospel was preached to Abraham, then who was the preacher? God himself? if that be the case, then you have blown your gospel regenerationist notion to bits... that preaching by man is not needed for regeneration!
But... what did Paul say?
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
It is not whether you have problem believing Rom 1:16. It is with what you claimed Rom 1:16 proves... you claimed it as a proof text for this notion: "We also hear that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel."
In Rom 1:16, who are those that are able to believe the gospel as the good news declaring God's power to save? It is those ALREADY saved by God.
Paul said it: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
It is to them that ARE SAVED that the gospel is perceived as the good news declaring God's power in salvation.
Apostle Paul was writing to them that ARE SAVED in Rome, them that are "the called of Jesus Christ, beloved of God, called to be saints.." to make known to them the good news of their salvation by God's free grace!
Paul is very confident that the gospel will be good news to such.
DennisThe Gospel needs a proclaimer. That proclaimer does not need to be a man.
Sing F Lau
That's a helpful statement.
So, in your opinion, there must be a proclaimer... but that proclaimer does not need to be man. He can be God, or a donkey or mule, or a piece of stone?
Do I understand you correctly?
And God himself must preach the gospel in order that dead sinner may hear and be regenerated... and the same instrumentality is attributed to the human and other proclaimers.
Am I stating your understanding correctly?
When apostle Paul asked the rhetorical questions, "and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?" did he have man or non-man proclaimer in mind?
Please tell us your opinion. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
"The pouring out of the Spirit in Acts 10 did two things. It brought about regeneration for those who needed it and granted the gift of tongues so that Peter would be convinced that God his willing that Gentiles come to Christ."
I want to ask you a simple question:
Was Cornelius still dead in sin and trespasses before Peter preached the gospel to him in his house?
Answer however way you want it, but answer it please.
Thanks.
Sing F Lau
"The gospel includes milk and meat."
=========
I love this wonderful statement.
Milk and meat are for the living.
Milk and meat were never, are never, and will never be instrument to bring lives to the dead.
Milk and meat are for the nourishing of those ALREADY regenerated... they are not instrument to regenerate the dead.
Basic and common sense. But the prejudice has blinded many.
Sing F Lau
Dennis, you made a staggering statement:
"To receive the Spirit it to be Regenerate."
You are the first person I have never heard such a thing.
Either you are very original, or I am not informed enough.
Now supposing your statement is true, let see what that means.
On the surface of it, the statement is MORONIC.
And this is the obvious reason.
Before regeneration, a man is dead in trespasses and sins. And worse still, he is in ENMITY and rebellion against God. And your statement say that such a man can receive the Spirit in order to be regenerated!
The verb 'to receive' PRESUPPOSES life, i.e. spiritual life.
Spiritual life is PREREQUISITE to spiritual activities.
Go figure what this passage means in light of your statement!
Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
BECAUSE ye are son... and that is only possible BECAUSE OF PRIOR regeneration. So, regeneration is not only PRIOR TO, BUT DISTINCT FROM, receiving the Spirit.
Your addiction to the fiction of gospel regeneration has made you very confused and inconsistent
Keep talking... and tell me to SHUT up if you are tired of me.
Dennis
Sing, "there must be a proclaimer... but that proclaimer does not need to be man."
Correct.
"And God himself must preach the gospel in order that dead sinner may hear and be regenerated... and the same instrumentality is attributed to the human and other proclaimers."
God can proclaim it directly as with Abraham but has revealed that as of now, the method he has chosen is the preaching of the gospel by human preachers.
"and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?"
We are in the New Covenant, the proclamation of the Gospel is the gospel call delivered by men.
"Was Cornelius still dead in sin and trespasses before Peter preached the gospel to him in his house?"
He was already a God-fearer so I would say no.
"Dennis, you made a staggering statement:
"To receive the Spirit it to be Regenerate."
You are the first person I have never heard such a thing. "
Regeneration -is- receiving the Spirit. The Spirit beginning to dwell within you is the means by which you are Regenerated.
"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, [not because of works] done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of [regeneration] and renewal [of the Holy Spirit]..." - Titus 3:4-5
"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." - Ezek 36:26-27
This was what Nicodemus failed to understand about the new birth in John 3.
"And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!""
This is a reference to internal witness and assurance, not a teaching about Regeneration.
"For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" - Rom 8:15-16
Sing F Lau
"Regeneration -is- receiving the Spirit. The Spirit beginning to dwell within you is the means by which you are Regenerated."
Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Regeneration is the Spirit of God sovereignly acting upon an elect dead in trespasses and sins.
To the regenerated, God gave His Spirit to them as the Spirit of adoption.
The two are distinct acts - sovereignly and freely by God's grace.
You just insists on your own imagination... when plainest declaration is presented to you, you just ignore it, and continue on in the same imagination!
Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
You statement is COMPLETE NONSENSE in light of this PLAIN TEXT. Please let your FB friends whether you don't understand, or you don't agree with that plain declaration from Paul.
BECAUSE ye are son... and that is only possible BECAUSE OF PRIOR regeneration. So, regeneration is not only PRIOR TO, BUT DISTINCT FROM, the giving and receiving the Spirit.
Either this PLAIN declaration by Paul is true, or you are confused and deceived.
An error persists in will spawn many other errors.
Sing F Lau
"Was Cornelius still dead in sin and trespasses before Peter preached the gospel to him in his house?"
"He was already a God-fearer so I would say no."
So, here is one concrete example of regeneration, PRIOR, and WITHOUT the gospel means.
And what about the Ethiopian eunuch?
And what about those devout Jews out of every nation under heaven that were CONVERTED by Peter's preaching? Were those DEVOUT Jews regenerated or were they still DEAD in trespasses and sins when they arrived in Jerusalem to celebrate Pentecost? 5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.)
Perhaps learning to differentiate regeneration by the Spirit of God, and the conversion through the ministry of word might help to remove all your difficulties!
You and I should really take the words of Christ VERY SERIOUSLY.
He said, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Take note of His assertion, "SO IS EVERY ONE BORN OF GOD."
There is only one manner of regeneration: by the direct and immediate activity of the Spirit of God upon EVERY ELECT dead in trespasses and sins. And this is true for every elect of God, whether under the old covenant, or the new covenant.
But you, like many, have conjured up different ways... some with human preaching, some without human preacher, etc, etc.
Sing F Lau
"And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!""
This is a reference to internal witness and assurance, not a teaching about Regeneration.
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Is that the way you dismiss Scriptures?
Who is making this text to teach regeneration!
It is most certainly a passage that discredit your notion that "To receive the Spirit it to be Regenerate."
Do you ever admit your OBVIOUS sometimes?
How will you ever grow in grace and knowledge of you don't?
Scriptures is profitable for our reproof and correction TOO!
"And because ye are son" is a DECLARATION that NECESSARILY presupposes that regeneration MUST HAVE taken place to them. If you deny this, then please state so.
"And because ye are son" is PLAINLY distinct and PRIOR to God's act of sending the Spirit of His Son into the hearts the same. If you deny this, then please state so.
God's act of sending the Spirit of His Son most certainly precedes, and is DISTINCT from the act of receiving the same by the sons mentioned. If you deny this, then please state so.
