Not baked beans on toasts!But worms!
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I am seeking to push the envelope just a little futher seeking the perimeters without bursting a pipe! Beware Arminians and John MacArthur type moderates! This could get nasty! I love the atonement of Christ too much to just be silent while these wooly bullies trample the precious blood of our Savior.Lucifer comes disguised as a moderate Calvinst buying air time on the media to spoil the gospel. Moderate Calvinism has the fingerprints of Satan all over it! I hope that don't burst any pipes!
[It may burst some blood arteries in some brains!!!]
Snow
Sing F Lau
They don't deserve the adjective 'moderate' nor the noun 'calvinist.' Just call them high Arminians! That's calling 'spade' a 'spade'!
Lloyd
Sing, explain why they are not calvinistic please.Page
Robert does that mean you don't hold to a view of election?
Sing F Lau
Lloyd@ "Sing, explain why they are not calvinistic please."1. They have departed from the beliefs of the old school calvinists. They have ceased to be calvinistic... Instead of owning that simple truth, they slander the old school calvinists... has 'hyper'. HOW CONVENIENT and DECEITFUL!
2. They have ABSOLUTELY messed up the old school distinction between forensic justification by God's free grace and experiential justification through man's faith! They confuse them and teach that forensic justification is through or conditioned on man's faith.
3. They have messed up the doctrine of perseverance into work based salvation. The old school doctrine speaks of saints remaining in the STATE of grace into which God freely and sovereign called them. The new school calvinists PERVERTED into saints persevering in a life of faith and holiness till the end of life.
4. The old school calvinists believed in direct and immediate regeneration WITHOUT and APART from gospel instrumentality. The new school calvinists believe their preaching activity is the necessary instrument in regeneration. New school calvinists are FULLERITES.
Old school calvinites ate GILLITES.
5. The old school calvinists believed the distinction between eternal salvation by free grace, and temporal salvation through the obedience responses of God's children. Because the new school calvinists are incapable of distinguishing the two, they end up with eternal salvation THROUGFH faith, instead of eternal salvation EVIDENCED by faith.
That's enough... others like 'free offer', 'common grace' are all related and manifestation of Arminian theology!
Sing F Lau
Charles@ "...These wooly bullies trample the precious blood of our Savior."Very apt description. Soft-headed people will be offended by these words.
Snow
Charles, you could say that - I reject all 5 points of calvinism, and only half-way accept 1point of arminianism - I essentially reject both calvinism and arminianism, and am neither.
Lloyd
well Sing that's ok then. the paedo baptists say that the new school RBs ARE Calvinist either. However as far as I can see the only significant difference is that they believe in preaching a gospel of repentance to the lost and praying for them. Now obviously you think that's pointless because there dead in sin and trespasses. that their lost but weren't you in that state once. Didn't the Spirit of God breathe upon your life and open your eyes to the gospel that you were a sinner in need of a saviour that you needed to repent? are you telling me you were always alive.
Sing F Lau
Lloyd, when will you ever understand simple things??? I have explained these things so many times, you just don't seem to get it. You still don't see the vital issue involved.I would try again.
You asked: "are you telling me you were always alive."
No, Every man is conceived in sin, born in sin, a child of wrath, in enmity against God, dead in trespasses and sin. Understand this simple statement?
And UNLESS God effectually calls a man out of that state of SIN and DEATH - without man's help or aid in any way - he will remain in that state and perish and end up in hell.
The issue is not whether it is necessary to preach the gospel. If you think that is the issue, you are still OBLIVIOUS to what is at stake! Gird up the loin of your mind!
The preaching of the gospel is necessary - the question is, necessary for what, for what purpose?
The Scriptures declares, and the old school baptists believed that it is necessary for the CONVERSION of God's CHILDREN, those elect that God has regenerated WITHOUT the preaching of the gospel. God's children need to be brought to know the gospel truth, to save them from ignorance and lies and superstitions, etc...
The new school calvinists - both sprinklers and immersionists - insist their preaching is the necessary instrument to the REGENERATION of God's elect who are dead in trespasses and sins, to save them from eternal hell!
Is the gospel ministry necessary instrument for the CONVERSION of God's children, God's elect who are already regenerated? Is 'no gospel ministry, no conversion to Christ' a truth or a lie?
OR, OR, OR
Is the gospel ministry necessary instrument for the
REGENERATION of God's elect who are dead in trespasses and sin? Is 'no gospel ministry, no regeneration' a truth or a lie?
I hope you understand what is the issue at state?
If you do, we will continue.
Otherwise, I have have said more than enough, and you are not perceiving!
Have your spiritual sight check, so that you will see the glaring differences between the old school and new school baptists!
Lloyd
God's elect who are already regenerated?Nope don't understand, when are you saying regeneration takes place?
Isn't election like a legal agreement made in heaven with the Tri-une Godhead, but ratified on earth through Christs death and resurection and then applied by the Holy Spirit as regeneration?
Now don't get cross with me remember I'm just a dairy farmer trying to get it, out in the country with no fellowship.
Sing F Lau
Alan@ "when are you saying regeneration takes place?"O Alan you have been posting things from the 1689 LBCoF, and you ask this basic question! I thought you understood the things you posted. Apparently you haven't!
10.1. reads "Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,(1) by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ..."
Note the time: at God's appointed and accepted time... you may retort, but that's effectual calling!
It is true, but effectual calling is that divine calling " out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ..."
And that REQUIRES:
- justification,
- regeneration,
- adoption, and the Spirit of adoption given to dwell in the regenerated.
11.1 reads, "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth,.."
Do you see the logical connection between effectual call and justification now???????????
12.1 reads, "1. All those that are justified, God vouchsafed, in and for the sake of His only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption,(1) by which they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privileges of children of God,("
Do you see the LOGICAL connection between justification and adoption now?
Then you may ask, but where is the regeneration? Regeneration is presupposed with justification. You may say, 'what nonsense!' But that because you don't realize that justification is the application of the righteousness of life to an elect personally... thus giving the Spirit divine warrant to regenerate the justified.
In Rom 5:18, we read: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
Did you notice the phrase "UNTO THE JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE?"
Regeneration unto life the the LOGICAL outcome of the application of Christ's righteousness to an elect personally.
13.1 read this: "1. They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated,..."
Ah....... do you see the mention of regeneration now... and its LOGICAL connection with effectual calling!
Put all of them together, and you get this:
Effectual Call to grace and salvation:
----- justification
----- regeneration
----- adoption + gift of the Spirit to dwell in the regenerated!
Only an elect effectually called by God to grace and salvation is ABLE to respond and answer to the gospel call... when by God's providence is brought to him.
So back to your question: "when are you saying regeneration takes place?"
The answer is: at God's appointed and accepted time... independent of the will or desire or effort of man; independent of the gospel ministry.
"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Please indicate whether you have understood!
I now realize that men can quote this and quote that, BUT OFTEN they DON'T know or understand what they have quoted!
Sing F Lau
Lloyd, I will never get cross with you. I am a farmer myself... I am a miner of God's word, and a tiller of God's earth! I will come to join you and do some farm work sometimes!Lloyd@ "Isn't election like a legal agreement made in heaven with the Tri-une Godhead, but ratified on earth through Christs death and resurrection and then applied by the Holy Spirit as regeneration?
That's correct to a great degree.
Rather than saying 'election is like a legal agreement made in heaven...' it would be more appropriate to say that 'the covenant of redemption is like a legal agreement made in heaven...'
Look at salvation like this: the are FIVE aspects... like the five fingers of a human hand:
- Redemption Purposed for all the elect in eternity
- Redemption Accomplished for all the elect at the cross
- Redemption Applied to each elect personally at effectual calling... WITHOUT instrumentality. And effectual call out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation requires justification by God's free grace, immediate and direct regeneration by the Spirit, and adoption by the Father into the family of God... now an elect is capable of believing, for the indwelling Spirit works the grace of faith in him!!!!!!!
- Redemption Experienced by each elect through faith in Jesus Christ... WITH gospel instrumentality.
- Redemption Consummated at Christ's return.
God bless you brother. I am off... to get ready for the Lord's day.
Lloyd
yes I see what you are saying, and I agree, I'm just getting stuck with what is the point of or is there any point then to evangelism and missions. Do I understand your saying that men are saved without means of any kind? But if that is the ...case man is without any responsibility? and if he is without responsibility how can you condemn him? I understand completely the confession and what your saying, but to me if what you say is correct then all that evangelistic effort from the likes of the apostles through to whitefeild etc were merely vain.
Sing F Lau
Alan @ "God's elect who are already regenerated?"=====
These are God's elect who WERE already regenerated BEFORE they ever hear the gospel...
- the many devout Jews who came to Jerusalem to worship God on the day of Pentecost...
- the Ethiopian eunuch who came to Jerusalem to worship the God of Israel...
- the Italian centurion was regenerated long before Peter was sent to preach the gospel to him.
- the business woman Lydia worships, and prays to God before Paul preached the gospel to her.
- Abraham was regenerated long before he believed, in Gen 15:1-6!
Sing F Lau
Lloyd@ "yes I see what you are saying, and I agree, I'm just getting stuck with what is the point of or is there any point then to evangelism and missions. I understand your saying that men are saved without means of any kind? But if that ...is the ...case man is without any responsibility? and if he is without responsibility how can you condemn him? I understand completely the confession and what your saying, but to me if what you say is correct then all that evangelistic effort from the likes of the apostles through to whitefeild etc were merely vain."==============
I am glad that you are now confronted with this MASSIVE dilemma! This dilemma will lead you to the next VITAL BIBLICAL truth you want to learn. It takes a length answer... but let me give you a few lines to think about:
1. There is a salvation which is entirely by the FREE and SOVEREIGN grace of God. And this salvation is ABSOLUTELY without means. Christ said, it is finished... and it is solely applied to each elect personally WITHOUT man's aid whatsoever... see the effectual call to grace and salvation stated above.
2. There is a distinct and separate salvation that is CONDITIONED upon man's responsibility. And that is where the gospel ministry has its proper place. This is the salvation that God's children (the elect that are already effectually called) MUST (therefore responsible) work out for themselves.
The salvation that God worked out for His elect is ETERNAL salvation... delivering them from the eternal condemnation due to their sins.
The salvation that God's children must work out for themselves is TEMPORAL salvation... delivering them from the temporal consequences of sins and disobedience, from lies and falsehood, from superstitions, through the truth of the gospel of their salvation by God's free grace... in this life here and now.
The gospel ministry is vitally necessary to accomplish the latter for God's children. It is the means divinely appointed for the WELL-BEING of God's children here in this life.
Brother, if you can understand the distinction between these two distinct salvation, then your dilemma is resolved completely.
Feel free to ask any further question... or raise any objections..
