Sir, the doctrine "teaches very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to the state of grace, can never completely fall from that state and thus fail to attain to eternal salvation."The same has been perverted into this:
The doctrine "teaches very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to the life of faith and obedience [in contrast to the state of grace] can never completely fall from that life of faith and obedience [in contrast to state] and thus persevere to the end of their life and attain to eternal salvation.”
"No one can finally fall away from the state of grace"
IS NOT THE SAME AS
"No one can finally fall away from the faith"
IS NOT THE SAME AS
"No one can finally fall away from the faith"
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Weib posted this quote, and the exchanges took place:
''You must not expect that you will be perfect in "repentance" before you are saved. No Christian can be perfect. "Repentance" is a grace. Some people preach it as a condition of salvation. Condition of nonsense! There are no conditions of salvation. God gives the salvation Himself..." - Charles Spurgeon
Berg:
amen
Sing F Lau:
The same goes for saving faith!
Beeku:
you repent because you are saved . . oh and repentance is from God . not yourself. end tim 2:25
Wieb:
2 Timothy 2:25 instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance to know the truth.
Ramir:
Just to be safe so that some may not misunderstand Spurgeon:
"Beyond this many advance, and yet fall short of grace. It is possible that you may confess your sins, and yet may not repent. You may approach God, and tell him you are a wretch indeed; you may enumerate a long list of your transgressions and of the sins that you have committed, without a sense of the heniousness of your guilt, without a spark of real hatred of your deeds. You may confess and acknowledge your transgressions, and yet have no abhorrence of sin; and if you do not in the strength of God resist sin, if you do not turn from it, this fancied repentance shall be but the guilding which displays the paint which decorates; it is not the grace which transforms into gold, which will abide the fire. You may even, I say confess your faults, and yet have not repentance."- C.H. Spurgeon
Ramir
And: 'Repentance' is a hatred of sin; it is a turning from sin and a determination in the strength of God to forsake it. 'Repentance' is a hatred of sin, and a forsaking it."- C.H. Spurgeon
Sing F Lau
"Perhaps God will grant them repentance to know the truth."
It is repentance TO KNOW THE TRUTH...
Gift is from WITHOUT.
Graces are worked from WITHIN.
Repentance and faith are graces worked within a child of God by the indwelling Spirit.
Sing F Lau
The privilege of knowing the truth is conditional upon humility and willingness to submit to God's word! God is opposed to the proud!
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Yes, more grace to know the truth...
Lu 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
There are those among God's children who are " Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2Tim 3
Ham:
Jesus is the truth!
John 5:39-40 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life
Wieb
only God's Elect come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:1-7 reveals children who are not God's children.
Sing F Lau
Only God's children (elect who are already regenerated) can come to the knowledge of the truth. Read 2 Timothy 3:1-9 again.
In both good times and perilous times, natural men ARE ALREADY (by nature) lovers of their own selves... 'shall be lovers of their own selves' DOES NOT apply to them. [It applies to God's children whose love for God will wax cold. Mt 24:12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." It is only the love of God's children that shall wax cold, not those still dead in trespasses and sins.]
Apostle Paul speaks of those who were not lovers of their own selves... SHALL BE lovers of their own selves in PERILOUS TIMES that would happen.
Many of God's children will choose the wide gate and the broad way.... Few of them will choose the strait gate and the narrow way.
Apostle Paul warns of the former! Why would Apostle Paul need to warn what the natural men will become in perilous times? They are already that by nature, i,e, lovers of themselves.
Wieb
I did read it again and there is no clue to them being Christians but that they are reprobate. my question would be given your perspective, what are you stating about the perseverance of the saints, Sing? 2 Timothy 3:1-9 does not describe regenerated Christians in my opinion.
Rogers Amen! It takes Grace to do ANYTHING in the direction of a HOLY God.
Sing F Lau
Here is the text:
3:1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
Yes, they are reprobate CONCERNING the faith. They are reprobate NOT concerning their election, but reprobate concerning the faith. They are reprobate in the context of failing to hold on to the faith.
Many Calvinists, because of their erroneous presupposition (as a result of the twisted doctrine of perseverance - more of this latter), do not allow or permit such a situation, where God's true children become reprobate concerning the faith!
Apostle Paul, while addressing the BRETHREN and SAINTS in Corinth, wrote these words, 2Cor 13:5-6 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates."
Apostle Paul warned those BRETHREN and SAINTS of their danger of being reprobates (adokimos) of being not in the faith. Apostle Paul was NOT doubting their status as being children of God, they are BRETHREN and SAINTS... but they were in danger of making shipwreck of their faith because of the false apostles that had poisoned their mind towards his apostleship and the gospel.
Even Apostle Paul warned himself lest he himself become a reprobate (adokimos) - same word used in the warning against the BRETHREN and SAINTS in Corinth. 1Co 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." OBVIOUSLY, a reprobate only in the sense of failing to live the gospel he preached to others, and NOT a castaway as an elect child of God.
God's children do make shipwreck of their faith! "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:" 1Ti 1:19
Please note: it is concerning faith that some (obviously referring to God's children) have made shipwreck! One must be in the faith, and only God's children can be in the faith, to make shipwreck of the faith!
The above is enough to show the fallacy of the common and popular idea of perseverance of the saints - a perversion of the BIBLICAL teaching on the perseverance of the saints.
Go figure it out. What was the old school baptists' understanding of the biblical doctrine of perseverance?
Ramir
Singh you need special pleading to try and read that those mentioned in 2 Tim 3 are of the elect. In fact that is a gross case of eisegesis! You my friend will be held to a higher judgement for being a shepherd of the sheep! You may get away with that kind of gross mishandling of the Word amongst your flock but not with those that will actually exegete the text.
Nowhere in passage does he refer to them as believers. He says "people" or "men" and if you get believers out of how Paul defined these people- your reading into the text what you want to see to avoid the "erroneous Calvinist presupposition." But just a plain reading of the passage leads one to see that Paul has described unbelievers!
Now you make an issue of the words "shall be" but of course Paul says "will be" (ESV) because he uses a future verb when he says that "will come" in reference to the difficult to times! Simple grammar Singh!
But what is Paul doing? He is exhorting an preparing Timothy to be a faithful worker approved by God especially in times when many will call themselves Christians but are not and not only that they will make it difficult for Timothy. This is clear from the previous chapter (2). But note especially that in verses 25 and 26 of chapter 2 that these opponents need repentance granted to them in order to come to the knowledge of the truth! And also notice these same people were described as being vessels for dishonor (v. 20). Dishonorable vessels were those vessels in houses used for human waste, human excrement and household garbage. Does that sound like a believer to you Singh? Next Paul tells Timothy to separate himself from such false Christians (teachers)! Perhaps he had Hymenaeus and Philetus in mind but note after mentioning them and their straying from the truth he that the Lord knows those who are His (v.20). The equivocation is that those two fellas did not belong to the Lord!
Now this is the context in which chapter comes out of. Those same people in ch.3 cannot be Christians because it would make what he said in ch.2 a lie.
Don't have time to continue but as a shepherd of the flock you really need to do a careful exegesis Singh!
Have you ever read the London Baptist confession on repentance? You don't know what you are talking about Singh!
Ramir
London Baptist Confession on perseverance:
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
Sing F Lau
Hi Cassie, you sound so classie!
Let me remind you, I am Sing, and not a Singh, the former is a Chinese, and the latter a Punjabi.
You asked, "Have you ever read the London Baptist confession on repentance? You don't know what you are talking... about Singh!"
In my nearly 20 years here, I have brought my church through the whole 1689 THREE TIMES. I say this just so that you may know where I am coming from. [So, I am more than acquainted with the 1689 LBCF]
Sing F Lau
Cassie, you quoted Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints. Let me point something out to you. "Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect u...nto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved..."
Have you understood what is the gist and essence of the perseverance of the saints? Read the above again, and state WHAT IS IT EXACTLY that those "whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith" persevere in?
Is perseverance of the saints about them remaining:
- in THE STATE OF GRACE into which the free and sovereign grace of God has brought them (grace brought them out of the state of sin and death into that of grace and life, and it is the same grace that will keep them in them SAME STATE)
OR
- in A LIFE OF FAITH AND HOLINESS that must be attained through their obedience?
Is there a difference between the two? Are they the same? What is the verdict of Scriptures?
Sing F Lau
"1. "Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved...""
Cassie, please tell... and no eisegesis please!
What does the word 'therein' refer to?
And persevere in what to the end?
And what does the word 'persevere' mean by the Framers?
Beware of catching the SOUND, but miss the SENSE!
Ramir
My apologies brother Sing for misspelling your name! And likewise my name is Fernando and Cassie is my wife's name. We share the FB.
In regards to the LBCF, I see no need to exegete it since it is not Scripture nor on the same level! I must say that I never thought I would see the day where we would need to exegete the LBCF! I know that our Presbyterian brethren have to do so with the WCF and the Heidelberg Catechism because of the Federal Vision, but Reformed Baptists have never had this problem with the LCBF.
As far as you teaching it for 20 years- not sure how that changes the meaning of what the Framers meant? I know people that have taught Romans 9 for more than 20 years but have missed the whole point and thus not taught it correctly! But I'm glad to hear that you are familiar with the LCBF.
Now your questions concerning chapter 17 of the LCBF prove nothing They say that a believer will persevere in a state of grace. I agree with everything they say. Here's the problem you only quote a part of the chapter. They clearly go on to clarify what they mean and that is why I posted the whole chapter! So MR. Sing do you care to explain what the Framers meant in points 2 and 3? How do these fit in with what you quoted? Note point 3.
Sing F Lau
Fernando "In regards to the LBCF, I see no need to exegete it since it is not Scripture nor on the same level! I must... say that I never thought I would see the day where we would need to exegete the LBCF! "
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Ok , so no need to exegete 1689. But it still needs to be understood rightly, doesn't it?
Then tell me the answer to these simple questions please.
What does the word 'therein' refer to?
And persevere in what to the end?
And what does the word 'persevere' mean by the Framers?
Sing F Lau
Fernando "So MR. Sing do you care to explain what the Framers meant in points 2 and 3? How do these fit in with what you quoted? Note point 3."
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Point 1 says:
"Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved..."
God effectually brought them into the STATE OF GRACE... and it will be by the same power of God, they shall persevere/REMAINS therein to the end...
Point 2 says:
Their remaining in the STATE OF GRACE does not in any way depends upon any effort of God's children. Isn't that clear enough? Their remaining in a life of faith and holiness is in great measure dependent upon the obedience of God's children. God DOES NOT guarantee that - NIL.
Point 3 says:
Despite all the 'hell' that may come upon God's children, NOTHING will remove them from their STATE OF GRACE. And note these exact words please, " be PRESERVED through faith in Christ Jesus to the end" - PRESERVED in the STATE OF GRACE to the end.
Every single child of God is PRESERVED IN THE STATE OF GRACE, even those whose lives God shortened and snuffed out because of sin.
So many of God's children so messed up their lives like Lot.... and many misguided Calvinists still believe their notion of the perseverance of the saints in their life of faith and holiness to the end of their life.
Even the Lord Himself has declared about His people: "Ho 11:7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me..."
Ramir
Sing the LBCF says what it says. I already answered your question but you have not answered any of mine especially the main issue...the passage in 2 Tim!
Brother I'm done with this conversation! We disagree and I'll leave it at that.
One final thing though, you are aware that the Framers of the LBCF borrowed from the Westminster Confession of Faith right? They modified the areas of baptism, sacraments and church government. In fact if you look at the WCF and LBCF the chapter on perseverance is the same chapter and verbatim! My point is ask any Presbyterian about what the Framers of the WCF meant and none of them will agree with you. The burden of proof is on you to disprove what historically has been the perseverance of the saints!
Ramir
You missed the point 3 completely as you have numerous Scriptures! Are you even aware that most of the Framers of the LBCF were Particular Baptists-in other words they were Calvinists! Nice try Sing but you need special pleading once again!!
Ramir
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
Sing F Lau
"My point is ask any Presbyterian about what the Framers of the WCF meant and none of them will agree with you. The burden of proof is on you to disprove what historically has been the perseverance of the saints! "
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Fernando, your assertion is irrational and invalid.
First, you can only make such an assertion ONLY if you have read what every Presby. has written.
Second, is Louis Berkhof reformed and Presbyterian ENOUGH for you? If he is, then I will quote what he has written in his systematic about the COMMON PERVERSION of the doctrine by Calvinists!
Let me know if you want to hear!
Sing F Lau
Fernando, have you answered these questions yet? I haven't read the answer yet - unless you consider them answered by your quoting the of WCF & LBCF:
Here are the basic question
Is perseverance of the saints about them remaining:
...- in THE STATE OF GRACE into which the free and sovereign grace of God has brought them (grace brought them out of the state of sin and death into that of grace and life, and it is the same grace that will keep them in them SAME STATE),
OR
- in A LIFE OF FAITH AND HOLINESS that must be attained through the saints obedience?
Is there a difference between the two?
Are they the same?
What is the verdict of Scriptures?
Ramir
Quote from Berkhof
4. Perseverance of the Saints. The expression 'perseverance of the saints' naturally suggests a continuous activity of believers whereby they persevere in the way of salvation. As a matter of fact, however, the perseverance referred to is less an activity of believers than a work of God, in which believers must participate. Strictly speaking, the assurance of man's salvation lies in the fact that God perseveres. Perseverance may be defined as that continuous operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer, by which the work of divine grace that is begun in the heart, is continued and brought to completion. This doctrine is clearly taught in Scripture, John 10:28, 29; Rom. 11:29; Phil. 1:6; II Thess. 3:3; II Tim. 1:12; 4:18. And it is only when we believe in this perseverance of God that we can in this life attain to the assurance of salvation, Heb. 3:14; 6:11; 10:22; II Pet. 1:10. Outside of Reformed circles this doctrine finds no favor. It is said to be contradicted by Scripture, which warns against apostasy, Heb. 2:1; 10:26, exhorts believers to continue in the way of salvation, Matt. 24:13; Col. 1:23; Heb. 3:14, and even records cases of apostasy, I Tim. 1:19, 20; II Tim. 2:17, 18; 4:10. Such warnings and exhortations would seem to assume the possibility of falling away, and such cases would seem to prove it completely. But as a matter of fact the warnings and exhortations prove only that God works immediately and wants man to co-operate in the work of perseverance: and there is no proof that the apostates mentioned were real believers. Cf. Rom. 9:6; I John 2:19; Rev. 3:1.
There is Mr. Berkhof for you. The problem lies with how you misunderstand what people say!Is perseverance a work of God absolutely but it is not eternal security as you want to define perseverance. It has to do with a work of sanctification as well. One cannot simply assent to facts about Christ and continually live in sin. a believer may fall into habitual sin for a time but the work of the Spirit will bring them to repentance so that they continue in good works. It's not that hard to understand Mr. Sing. That is what the Scriptures, WCF, LBCF, Heidelberg Catechism and the Reformers taught. But you want to take their words and read your own meaning back into them. You can quote all the Reformed Systematic theologies that you want but first understand them properly! They all teach what the Scriptures teach on perseverance.
Ramir
Here is Baptist James Boyce:
"THE doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints teaches that those who are effectually called of God to the exercise of genuine faith will certainly persevere unto final salvation. This is not taught of a cl...ass of mankind in general, as something that will usually be true of the persons composing that class, but of each individual in it,--so that not one will finally apostatize or be lost; but each will assuredly persevere and be saved.
This fact is taught explicitly in the word of God, which sets it forth as due to the purpose and power of God and the grace which he bestows, and not to any excellence or power in the believer. Indeed, such is stated to be the weakness of man that, if left to himself, he would assuredly fall, against the danger of which he is constantly warned; a danger to which even the best instructed and most sanctified are liable, and which is evidenced by the sins which are committed, which are often of a most heinous character, sometimes extending to actual denial of the faith, and backsliding from God; showing that but for God's mercy and grace, final apostacy would occur. But, from the danger thus due to himself, he is rescued by the power and grace of God, who, by his watchful preservation, keeps guard over his unworthy children, preventing their total estrangement from him, and bringing them finally unto the salvation he has designed for them. In so doing, however, he does not act independently of their co-operation, but leads them unto salvation through their own perseverance in faith and holiness."
Notice the last word- holiness! The believer by God's grace will persevere in both faith AND holiness!
Sing F Lau
Thanks for the quote from Berkhof
State the part where he deals with the error of Strong. Like A H Strong, many Calvinists has perverted the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints into saints persevering in a life of faith and obedience to the end of their life. This common error was critiqued by Berkhof.
He emphasized that the doctrine "teaches very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to a state of grace, can never completely fall from that state and thus fail to attain to eternal salvation."
But Calvinists like you have ignored Berkhof warning, and perverted the doctrine into this: You have made the doctrine of perseverance to teach “very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to a life of faith and obedience [in contrast to a state of grace] can never completely fall from that life of faith and obedience [in contrast to state] and thus persevere to the end of their life and attain to eternal salvation.”
So, according to your understanding of the doctrine, did any of God's true children fall away from the faith? Or that is an impossibility?
In the Scriptures are there examples of God's true children falling away from the faith? Or those who fall away were NOT even children of God to begin with (popularly believe by the Calvinists)?
I am not asking whether any of God's children fall away from the STATE OF GRACE? That is, of course, plainly affirmed by Scriptures to be an absolute impossibility.
Ramir
Here is Presbyterian A.A. Hodge:
The Calvinistic doctrine, as stated in this chapter of our Confession, is, that God has revealed his gracious purpose to cause every true believer to persevere in his faith and obedience till death; that he will never be allowed to fall away totally from grace, and therefore he never can fall away finally.
It is obvious, from this statement, that this doctrine is not open to the objections which are often brought against it.
(1.) It is absurd to say that, it is inconsistent with man's free will. As God does not make a man come to Christ, so he does not constrain him to continue in Christ, irrespective of his will. God graciously causes a man to persevere in willing. That is the whole truth. It is a precious truth, clearly revealed, which the Arminian Christian can no more afford to give up than the Calvinist, that God can, and does, control the free wills of his people without limiting their liberty, making them "willing in the day of his power," and "working in them both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Ps. cx. 3; Phil. ii. 13. The Arminians themselves believe that the saints will be rendered secure from falling from grace when they go to heaven, and yet that they will be none the less perfectly free as to their wills. If the two are consistent conditions in heaven, they can be none the less so on earth.
(2.) This doctrine is not liable to the charge of fostering a spirit of carnal security, on the ground that if we are once in grace we cannot lose grace or be lost, do what we please. Let it be observed -- (a.) That the true doctrine is not that salvation is certain if we have once believed, but that perseverance in holiness is certain if we have truly believed. (b.) The certainty -- nay, the probability -- of an individual's salvation is known to him only through the fact of his perseverance in holiness. A tendency to relax watchful effort to grow in grace because true Christians will not be allowed to fall away totally, is a direct evidence that we are not in a gracious state; and hence that the threatenings of the law and the invitations of the gospel, and not the perseverance of the saints, are the special truths applicable to our case. (c.) This doctrine teaches, not that persistent effort on our part is not necessary in order to secure perseverance in grace to the end, but that in this effort we are certain of success; for it is God that worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil, ii. 13.
Notice that in the first paragraph that Mr. Hodge says the believer will persevere in faith AND obedience till death!
Sing F Lau
"Notice the last word- holiness! The believer by God's grace will persevere in both faith AND holiness!"
"Notice that in the first paragraph that Mr. Hodge says the believer will persevere in faith AND obedience till death!"
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Somehow this common figment of imagination does not match the record of revelation - Scriptures, and therefore cannot be true, but a common lie.
Lot did not persevere in faith and holiness to the end. But he most certainly persevered/remained in the STATE OF GRACE into which he was effectually called.
Do you see how the truth has been PERVERTED?
The doctrine "teaches very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to a state of grace, can never completely fall from that state and thus fail to attain to eternal salvation."
The same doctrine has been perverted into this: teaches very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to a life of faith and obedience [in contrast to a state of grace] can never completely fall from that life of faith and obedience [in contrast to state] and thus persevere to the end of their life and attain to eternal salvation.”
And Solomon? And those who made shipwreck of their faith? And those among the BRETHREN and SAINTS in the church in Corinth whose lives God snuffed?
And Lot is just one of a continuous stream of people we read in the Scriptures. But of course, the Calvinists would just CONVENIENTLY dismiss such as "they were never children of God to begin with"!
Sing F Lau
So, go on quoting that popular view spouted by Calvinists... and I will see whether such view measure up to what the Scriptures describes of God's children there.
Ramir
No Mr. sing no child of God can fall away finally from the state of Grace! Your problem is that you only have half of it right. Obedience is the other half that you are missing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the Scriptures are very clear on this issue. You want this notion of easy-believeism where some person can claim to be a Christian and may even perform some good works but never truly believe and fall away from the faith and you want to say they were saved. no sir that is not what the Holy Writ teaches. Go look at all the verses from the Reformed people I posted.
No again beleiver can fall away finally from the faith!!!! Philippians 1:6 is pretty clear. how about 2 Cor. 13:5. Exegete those passages Mr. Sing. don't just avoid them and continue to ask questions. deal with the Scriptures. But you can't so you have to divert the subject. You never have responded to my exegesis of 2 Tim. have you?
Ramir
But Mr. Sing you were the one that wanted to quote Mr. Berkhof who does not agree with your foolish interpretation of perseverance!
I exegeted a text (2 Tim. v2-3) that you mangled. You offered no response but rather went off course and wanted me to exegete of all things the LBCF!!!
I only responded to your eisegesis because I've seen you post other fallacious interpretations on other peoples posts. And as you being a Pastor i have some serious concerns since one qualification is that you must be able to rightly handle (literally cut straight) the Word of God, which I have yet to see you do!
Ramir
Measure this Scripture with your view of perseverance:
2 Peter 1:10-11 "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
Sing F Lau
"But Mr. Sing you were the one that wanted to quote Mr. Berkhof who does not agree with your foolish interpretation of perseverance!"
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Did you not notice that Berkhof said that perseverance is NOT the believers persevering in a life faith and obedience... but God persevering to preserve His children in the STATE of GRACE??? How can a clever student like you miss that!
If God does persevere to keep His children in a life of faith and holiness, then EVERY CHILD of God would manifest that life of faith of holiness. I just don't see that figment of imagination in the Bible... such idea does not conform to God's word.
Sing F Lau
2 Peter 1:10-11 "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
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2 Peter 1
5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
May I ask, is verse 9 possible of a child of God?
Is Apostle Peter warning the Brethren about something impossible?
Is it possible that if these brethren fail to heed Peter exhortation, they shall become barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ?
Are the Brethren not warned that IF they don't practice those things, they will fall away? You would instead say that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE for these Brethren to fall away. So, Apostle Peter was warning something that cannot possibly happen to these Brethren. But I believe Apostle Peter was no fools like many Calvinists!
Sing F Lau
To read all the exhortations to God's children that they should to persevere in a life of faith and holiness is QUITE DIFFERENT from making the statement that every child of God will persevere in a life of faith and holiness.
Is it not? No?...
I am no friend of easy-believism. So, don't assume that.
Sing F Lau
You wrote: No again beleiver can fall away finally from the faith!!!!
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I understand you to say, "Again, no believer can finally fall away from the faith!!!!"
Is your "no believer can fall away finally from the faith" the same as the Framers' "can neither totally nor finally fall from the STATE OF GRACE, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved"?
Any way, this is my understanding:
No believer can finally fall from the STATE OF GRACE. Many believe can finally fall from the faith. And there is a vast difference between the two.
Of course, it is easier and more convenient to dismiss folks like Lot and those who make shipwreck of their faith, as none of God's children!
It is like saying that the poor and downtrodden in the US can't possibly be US citizens because of the presupposition that no citizen of US can possibly be in such condition. Such are all alien illegals, otherwise the bloated Fed guarantees them to enjoy the American Dream!
Sing F Lau
Philippians 1:6 is pretty clear. how about 2 Cor. 13:5. Exegete those passages Mr. Sing. don't just avoid them and continue to ask questions. deal with the Scriptures. But you can't so you have to divert the subject. You never have responde...d to my exegesis of 2 Tim. have you?
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Thank you drawing attention to your 'exegesis'. I didn't notice it, nor did I want to avoid it.
Fernando, you believe that in 2Tim 3 Apostle Paul is warning Timothy about easy believism - "He is exhorting an preparing Timothy to be a faithful woker approved by God especially in times when many will call themselves Christians but are not and not only that they will make it difficult for Timothy."
You are reading a 20th century problem of the cheapskate American Christianity into the first century epistle. It may cost one's life to call themselves Christian in the days of Timothy! That is gross eisegesis indeed! No such problem in the NT Christianity! It is a problem read into the text!
Those spoken of in 2Tim 2:25-26 - you insist that they are NOT God's children, that they are vessel of dishonor - therefore can't possibly be God's children.
But the whole second is dealing with God's children who ERR grievously from the truth, and because they err from the gospel truth, they become dishonorable.
Read these verses carefully, will you?
2:18 "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some."
2:21 'If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work."
A child of God who errs from the truth is likened to a vessel of dishonor. But if a vessel of dishonor PURGES himself from those errors, "he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work."
Get that?
And Apostle Paul exhorted Timothy to instruct those children of God in serious errors - "if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." This can only refers to CHILDREN OF GOD... who are STILL unbelieving on some truth of the gospel!
And look finally at verse 26: just who are spoken of?
"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."
In your understanding, you are making these reprobate, still dead in trespasses and sins, able to do something to recover themselves out of the snare of the devil."
Only God's children can do something to recover themselves from the snare of the devil... by forsaking errors and believing the truth delivered to them.
Now, tell me that you are guilty of eisegesis!
Sing F Lau
Philippians 1:6 is pretty clear.
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6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Yes, pretty clear indeed: He has effectually called them into the STATE OF GRACE.... and He will continue to keep them in that STATE OF GRACE until the day of Jesus Christ.
The pronoun 'it' and 'the good work' refers to the very same thing - that of God effectually calling them into the STATE OF GRACE. And that same work will be continued till the end.
No where does it says, God will keep every of His children in a life of faith and holiness. If that is so, then every one of God's children will exhibit uniform life of faith and holiness until the end of their earthly lives; then no one will make shipwreck of their faith, etc, etc.
Sing F Lau
how about 2 Cor. 13:5. Exegete those passages Mr. Sing.
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"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
Apostle Paul is addressing BRETHREN and SAINTS...
And these Corinthian BRETHREN and SAINTS were behaving very unbecomingly - having been misguided and deceived by some 'super apostles' and were disaffected towards Apostle Paul, and were doubting his office and his gospel.
These BRETHREN and SAINTS were acting unbecoming of the gospel - that Apostle Paul asked them to examine themselves, whether they be IN THE FAITH.
God's children may behave and conduct themselves in such a way that they are NOT in the faith!
Their STATUS as BRETHREN and SAINTS is not being questioned! Their unbecoming conduct and spirit are... they are reprobates in their conduct and spirit towards Apostle Paul.
Sing F Lau
Fernando, let me know if there is anything else outstanding.
Ramir
Well Sing if I ever taught Hermeneutics again I would certainly use your eisegesis of above texts to show how one wrongly handles the Word! Gross mishandling of the Word!
You did not even comprehend my point of the Timothy passage! What you accuse me demonstrates that clearly. By your own understanding of 2 Tim you would have to say that Judas was a believer! But then again I wouldn't put that pass you.
Anyone can say "read the passage again" Jehovas Witnesses do that all the time. Show me from the context, grammar and historical setting that it doesn't mean what almost every NT scholar says means! Nowhere in the text does it say they were genuine believers. You assert that it does but a surface level reading of it shows otherwise. The purging that you got all excited about can be understood of two ways:
1: Paul is urging Timothy and all Christians to purge themselves from all the vessels of dishonor that were false Christians
2: Paul is telling urging believers to purge themselves of any sinful behavior and by doing so they will prove themselves to be vessels of honor and if they do not then they prove themselves to be vessels of dishonor- that is not true in the faith.
Again Mr. Sing what is a vessel of dishonor? It is a vessel that was used for human waste in a household! Do you seriously think that is a description fit for one of God's beloved children?
The first interpretation fits the context as Timothy is urged by Paul not to associate with false teachers but rather expose and refute them.
Also Mr. Sing if those were true believers why does Paul make the statement that the Lord knows those that are His and for everyone that names the the name of the Lord to depart from iniquity(2Tim 2:19)? If they were true believers as you say they are, this would be a nonsensical statement! What does behavior have to do with naming the name of the Lord? You ignored this part in your eisegesis! Could it be that Paul is touching on perseverance of the saints here! My goodness how do you miss that!!!!
As far as your other incoherent accusations, I'm hard pressed to get what you are putting in my mouth? Are you saying that i said something about believers being persecuted to death in my exegesis? Although that was certainly true it wasn't pony and can't recall mentioning it. But it is interesting that you assert first century Christians were not being Martyred in the NT. What about Stephen? And you do know that 2 Tim. Was Pauls last epistle and he was what? That's right martyred for Christ. Anyhow by the time he wrote 2 Tim. James the author of the epistle James was killed for his faith.
As far as Philippians 1:6 goes, you missed the entire point of the text yet again! Sir what does mean to partnership in the Gospel(v.5)? To be sure,it does not mean to mentally assent to certain facts about the Gospel and be confident you will be saved. In means to be active, got that- active, for the sake of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! In their case active with Paul. In v. 6 Paul has in mind their spiritual growth- sanctification. He makes it even clearer in v.9,10 and 11 where his prayer for them is purity, blamelessness and to be filled with the fruit of righteousness! Does that involve godly behavior- sanctification Mr. Sing? Or is Paul simply assuring them that if they are antinomians Not to worry God will save them anyway? Rubbish! Now we both agree that one cannot lose their salvation but you make sanctification merely a possibility or a mere suggestion. The Scriptures on the other hand make sanctification a sure thing for God's chosen ones!
Now as for your example of Lot? What of it? Was he sinful at times. Of course. No one denies that. Here let me give you a better one, since I once held your antinomian position and used all your arguments- how about Solomon? The last we hear of him is that he was worshipping false gods with all his wives? Simple answer Mr. Sing the OT saints were not given the Spirit the way NT saints are! Surely you have read New Covenant in Ezekiel 36:26? It is essential to understanding this issue! God takes our hearts of stone and gives us hearts of flesh and places His Spirit in us, now watch this Mt. Sing because I don't want you to miss it, so that we can keep His statutes and obey His rules! That is right sir not only is the Holy Spirit given as a seal and guarantee that we belong to God as His adopted children, but also so that we can obey Him. He sanctifies us, something you want to divorce from the new birth!
Well sir I am done with this discussion. Some of your accusations I could not deal with because they were incoherent babblings ( I know no other way to say it). Your exegesis is really eisegesis and the other two texts you did not even interact with (2 Peter 1:1-10 and 2 Cor. 13:5). However all is well with me since I can hardly take your distortion of the Scriptures.
May the Lord continue be merciful and gracious towards you Mr. Sing
Ramir
Sorry, but I just read your understanding of 2 Cor. 13:5 and I happen to agree with part of your understanding!I would argue that Paul is commanding (it is an imperative verb) the Corinthians to examine their lives to see if they are in fact Christians since true faith is always accompanied by good works! The Corinthian church was rife with sin and if they persisted in it they proved themselves to be not genuine Christians. Why Paul would command such a thing is called perseverance of the saints!!!!
Ramir
Just read your view of 2 Peter 1:10.
Ramir
Let's try this again. Is v.9 possible for a believer in 2 Pet. Yes it is but never finally- that is they will never remain in that state at the time of death. Hence that command in v. 10! The main verb of that verse is "Be...diligent" and i...s a command. What then are these believers commanded to do? They are to be zealously to make every effort to add the virtues listed in v. 5-8 to thie Christian walk. Notice also how he says that these virtues are increasing (present tense verb) in v. 8? thus the reason for the command is just as Peter mentioned- to make their election and calling sure! what's the equivocation? That you cannot be certain you are elect if you aren't increasing in those virtues! Why such an equivocation? Because if you are called you will make every effort and by the work of the Spirit these virtues will be ever increasing (though they may decline for a time) in the believers life just as he stated in v.8!
Sing F Lau Thanks for the exchanges, Fernando.
And thanks Elme! for your long-suffering.
Ramir
Thank you Sing! Iron sharpens iron.
Sing F Lau
Again Mr. Sing what is a vessel of dishonor? It is a vessel that was used for human waste in a household! Do you seriously think that is a description fit for one of God's beloved children?
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You are entirely mistaken! Beware of eisigesis sir.
"I observe that Paul makes a very specific statement about his analogy, "But in a great house...." He is not describing two different "houses," the family of God and the wicked, but rather the "great house" of God's family. As in a natural family, some of the children are more respectful and obedient than other children, but all who are born into the family are indeed part of the family and in the "...great house." And, quite related to another discussion thread this week, it is the individual's personal behavior that distinguishes whether he/she is a "vessel of honour" in this great house, or a "vessel of dishonour." By our conduct, we may either honor God and His house, or we may dishonor Him and His house." (J. Holder)
Think about it, Sir.
Ramir
He is making a distinction within the visible church which is made up of wheat and tares believers and unbelievers (Matt.13:24-30). Your assumption would be like saying that because their is only one field in Matt 13. then all are believers. Context my friend must determine meaning and not just a word!
Sing F Lau
Fernando, did you read verse 21?
"If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work."
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Is this describing a tare doing something to... turn himself in 'a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work,' or a child of God turning away from his shameful and dishonorable way, i.e. forsaking the errors, thus restoring himself into a 'a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work."
Ramir
Mr .Sing may I ask your forgiveness for being a bit too harsh? I'm not trying to insult but as I read my posts I can come across that way. Please do forgive me? You are my brother in the Lord and a fellow Pastor and that does require honor. My reason for being harsh is because you are a leader and shepherd of the flock and the Word of God must rightly be preached! But nevertheless I have over stepped the boundaries and sinned against you again please forgive me?
Ramir
Sir I am done!
Sing F Lau
You have not wronged me, and no forgiveness needed! I am pretty used to white-man's arrogance and imperialistic slant
I am iron, and you do me a great favor as a good whetstone.
And a student can never afford to be offended by the teachers, and I take you as my teacher. Just being honest.
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Conclusion
Do you see how the truth of this doctrine has been PERVERTED?The doctrine
- "teaches very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God into the state of grace, can never completely fall from that state and thus fail to attain to eternal salvation."
The same doctrine has been perverted into this:
- "teaches very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to the life of faith and obedience [in contrast to the state of grace] can never completely fall from that life of faith and obedience [in contrast to state] and thus will persevere to the end of their life and attain to eternal salvation.”
A man is brought into a state of grace by the free and sovereign grace of God... and he is kept and preserved in that same state unto eternal salvation. This involves no activity of man.
And this plain doctrine is twisted and perverted into something monstrous, such that a man's eternal salvation is now conditioned upon his life of faith and obedience to the end of his earthly life.
Perseverance in the state of grace has been twisted and perverted into perseverance in a life of faith and obedience!
And so many confident and cocksure Calvinists insist they are believing the truth of Scriptures, and summarized in their confession of faiths!
2Co 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
And many receive him as the angel of light, and his lies as the truth!
