A bald-eager is not bald at all!The beholder is color blind!
So also those who slander others as hyper!
History teaches us that hyper-Calvinism is as much a threat to true Calvinism as Arminianism is. Virtually every revival of true Calvinism since the Puritan era has been hijacked, crippled, or ultimately killed by hyper-Calvinist influences. Modern Calvinists would do well to be on guard against the influence of these deadly trends.
[sing: what is true Calvinism, and what is hyper-Calvinism? To one true Calvinism is what ever he believes. Those who differ are either Arminians or hyper-calvinists!!!]
Brown
Though I've never met a hyper-Calvinist.
Butcher
Hmmmm...Matthew, neither have I. I've met people that vehemently argue against hyper-Calvinism, but I have not actually met anyone that believed in it. [sing: can they define what is hyper-calvinism?]
Maybe we are hearing from people that take Calvin's teachings out of context to argue against them. Maybe it's the opponents of Calvin's teachings made it up to use it as an argument against Calvinism. The way Satan twisted God's Words and Eve embellished them in the Garden.
Maybe....
Sing F Lau
Spurgeon greatly admired his predecessor John Gill, a man greatly respected by his Calvinistic contemporaries of other denominations... and considered the EPITOME of 'calvinism' [old school calvinism, of course].
And yet today, men who are midgets compared to Gill slandered him as hyper-calvinist.
What has gone wrong? Midgets calling a true giant names!
========
"Charles Haddon Spurgeon is glowing in his praise of Gill. Of his ordination, Spurgeon says, ‘Little did the friends dream what sort of man they had thus chosen to be their teacher; but had they known it they would have rejoiced that a man of such vast erudition, such indefatigable industry, such sound judgement, and such sterling honesty, had come among them.’ Spurgeon loved reading Gill’s sermons and wrote, for instance in his copy of Gill’s preaching on the Song of Solomon, “This priceless work of my learned predecessor has always been helpful to me.” In his Commenting and Commentaries, he says of this work....
“Those who despise it, have never read it, or are incapable of elevated spiritual feelings.”....
This sums up much of present day second-hand criticism of Gill which is rarely based on a first hand knowledge of his works. Gill’s commentaries, which were merely his sermons in writing, were regularly and eagerly consulted by the Prince of Preachers who marked them all with three stars which was Spurgeon’s way of saying, “The very best!”. In 1886 he jotted in his copy of Ezekiel to Malachi the words, “Many sneer at Gill, but he is not to be dispensed with. In some respects, he has no superior. He is always well worth consulting.” In a letter dated February 1855, Spurgeon pays tribute to Gill’s influence on him by stating “My position, as Pastor of one of the most influential churches, enables me to make myself heard and my daily labour is to revive the old doctrines of Gill, Owen, Calvin, Augustine and Christ.” It would seem here that Spurgeon was so taken up by the testimony of Gill that he mixed up his priorities and put Gill first and Christ last."
========
Quote from the article "John Gill and His Successors" by George Ella at http://evangelica.de/articles/biographies/john-gill-and-his-successors/
Go, read the full article and be enlightened.
What has gone wrong? Midgets calling a true giant names - how indicative of this degenerated generation.
Sing F Lau
Augustus Toplady, a no mean giant himself, testified of his Old Baptist mentor, “Perhaps, no man, since the days of St. Austin, has written so largely, in defense of the system of Grace; and, certainly no man has treated that momentous subj...ect, in all its branches, more closely, judiciously, and successfully.”
Ignorant men call Gill names!
Sing F Lau
“John Gill, a Baptist puritan pastor who writes a thorough defense of Calvinistic theology.” testified Dr Robert L. Reymond – a reformed Presbyterian, Professor of Systematic Theology,
and author of “A New Systematic Theology of the Christian F...aith" published by Nelson, 1998.
A giant recognizes a Giant.
Huston
Like a lot of heresies, hyper-Calvinism exaggerates one truth to the exclusion of others. The primer article is excellent. I'm not sure about Gill as I have seen Him described both as a Calvinist and a hyper-Calvinist. Either way, Gill was hugely influential and used of God.
[sing: what truths are being exaggerated, and what excluded? Please tell us.]
Sing F Lau
A man calls those shorter than him Arminian, and those taller than him Hyper-calvinist! He himself is the point of reference and standard
Sing F Lau
Dr George Ella referred to Phil Johnson's article in his "The Gospel of Deceit. " Here is an excerpt from the article:
Johnson’s Jinks
Several of these Babel forgeries have bothered the Christian Press recently under the guise of duty-faith a...nd the free offer. One is an article by Phillip R. Johnson entitled A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism, published by the Sword and Trowel (March, 2002). Here, the author boasts that we must twist Scripture to disagree with him. There is no danger of this. The little he says based on Scripture would be accepted by most of those he opposes and everything he says against his opponents is unfounded, undocumented prejudice and silly name-calling. Johnson’s argument that all men are duty-bound to believe in Christ within the ‘Free Offer’ is as rationalistic as it is illogical and un-Biblical.
Read the full article here: http://evangelica.de/articles/doctrine/the-gospel-of-deceit/
Cattmule
"Both Arminians and hyper-Calvinists will protest that it is illogical or unjust to teach that God demands what sin renders us incapable of doing." That's it in a nutshell!
[Those whom CattMule slanders as hyper-calvinists protest that it is immoral and illogical to teach that God demands those whom He did not give Jesus Christ to be their their Saviour to repent and believe Jesus Christ to be their Saviour. CattMule is incapable of representing his opponent accurately... and should hold his peace!]
Sing F Lau
Very many INSIST that the God they worship demands EVEN the non elect to believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins to save them EVEN THOUGH God has plainly revealed and declared that He did not give His Son Jesus Christ for such, but fo...r His elect ALONE.
Would the God of truth demand the non-elect believe a lie?
Let God be true but every man a liar.
God does demand His children (the elect that re already regenerated) to believe the gospel because it is already true of them. Truth must be believe... but that does not mean that it will always be believed even by those who ought to believe it!
Cattmule
"A hyper-Calvinist is someone who .... Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear"
This professor has no message for the wicked. Therefore, if the ungodly man were forced to spend time with a professing Christian, he would choose the Hyper as the most comfortable companion! lol
Sing F Lau
At last someone is kind enough to give a working definition of a hyper-calvinist! Thanks.
"A hyper-Calvinist is someone who... Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear"
There is a basic error and a great confusion with this statement. It stems from a misguided notion of what constitute the gospel, and what constitutes the gospel call.
The gospel is the good news of what God HAS DONE for His chosen people through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, and APPLIED by the Spirit of God to individual elect. That is the good news... and in the nature of the case, the gospel is for those in whom God has applied the work of redemption, and no one else.
The gospel call, in the nature of the case, APPLIES specifically to those in whom the gospel truth is already true, therefore calling them to believe the truth of their redemption by the free grace of God. The gospel call is a call to God's children, in whom the redemption has been applied PERSONALLY by God's free grace, to believe the gospel truth.
But alas, so many think the gospel call is offering salvation to all without distinction... therefore the offer is extended to all without distinction... i.e applies to all! Offer that sounds very generous and benevolent!
Go to the cemetery on a fine day. Bring along some delicious food... Yell on top of your voice that you have some good food to share. The offer is to all. In your sincerity, you make it very clear that the offer is extended to the dead too. Some other visitors may hear your offer and join you. But such are already living. EVEN SO your 'gospel offer' to give them eternal life has come TOO LATE!
Gospel is spiritual milk and meat... the gospel call to such milk and meat is for the living... and applies to the living among the hearers, and not the walking dead.
So, I deduce from your definition that a Calvinist is someone who insist that the gospel call is an offer, and it is offered to all, including those dead in trespasses and sins.
Even if it is an offer, let me just say that it is FOOLISH to offer it to the dead and non-elect, as well as MOCKERY in the extreme to do so!
Correct me if I am wrong. I abhor misrepresenting anyone.
Sing F Lau
"This professor has no message for the wicked.
Therefore, if the ungodly man were forced to spend time with a professing Christian, he would choose the Hyper as the most comfortable companion! lol"
=====
There is clearly great confusion here....
The statement assumes that one he slanders as a hypercalvinist has ability to distinguish the wicked from those who are not. Therefore he would not preach the gospel to the wicked. That is not only a confusion, but also a wicked misrepresentation. One he slanders as a 'hypercalvinist' does not have, and has never claimed that he has, that knowledge. It is a big lie.
The simple truth is, one whom you conveniently label as 'a hypercalvinist' believe in preaching the gospel to ALL HIS HEARERS, announcing to them what God has done to save His people through Jesus Christ and applied by His Spirit to individual sinners... calling them to believe the truth... ALL THE TIME CONSCIOUS that his call, in the nature of the case, APPLIES ONLY to God's people among the hearers, and NO ONE ELSE.
Of course if an ungodly man can know, he would most certainly choose to spend time with one who would tell him LIES... He would flee from one you call 'a hypercalvinist' who would offer him nothing.
Sing F Lau
Of course if an ungodly man can know the difference, he would most certainly choose to spend time with one who would tell him LIES...
- the LIE that he has been sent to offer eternal salvation to the wicked... spreading the LIE that without ...his preaching, the Holy Spirit is impotent to regenerate.
- the LIE that if the wicked would accept the offer, eternal life would be given to him... spreading the LIE that one dead in trespasses and sins is able to believe in order to get life!
- the LIE that if he believes, he will be justified by God... spreading the LIE that an un-justified man, therefore under condemnation, is capable of believing, and be justified by God.
- LIES, LIES, and more LIES.
And of course the wicked is most comfortable with those who tell him lies.
They hate one whom you label as hyper-calvinist because he would tell them the unpalatable truth of free and sovereign grace, that only God's children, elect ALREADY regenerated is able to believe the gospel, and he has been sent to call such to repentance and faith... and whoever believes DOES SO because he POSSESSES eternal life.
Apostle Paul did say:
"10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."
This is bald-headed... but it is not the majestic bald-head eagle,and many mistake it as a bald eagle.
They are guided by SIGHT and not SENSE.
This is a vulture... a lowly creature that feeds on carcasses!
That was lengthy, but at least you did give one Scripture.
Apostle Paul did say:
"10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."
Amen. He also called on his audience at Mars Hill to repent.
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, SOME MOCKED: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. So Paul departed from among them. HOWBEIT CERTAIN MEN CLAVE UNTO HIM, AND BELIEVED: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them."
Sing F Lau
Nice to quote Scriptures and then assumes it teaches man's imagination!
God's truth is one complete HARMONIOUS whole - you will agree with this basic and fundamental premise. That is why we say that the Scriptures is, and must be its own interpreter.
And if an interpretation DOES NOT conform to that basic premise, then it is PLAINLY in error, or the interpreter is plainly deceived.
If one's interpretation of "God commands all man everywhere to repent" is such that it does not conform to the plain truth reveal elsewhere in the Scriptures, then it is just man's imagination and fancy, it is not the teaching of Scriptures.
The Scriptures declares in no uncertain term that God elected a particular and specific people, and sent Jesus Christ to live and died for them ONLY, to secure their eternal salvation. His Spirit applied this salvation to each elect personally, whether prospectively or retrospectively, to each one such ONLY and NO ONE ELSE, in His appointed time. God DID NOT give His Son to save the rest. They have been by-passed.
How should one understand the statement, "God commands all man everywhere to repent" in light of those glaring truth?
Do you want 'all men' to include even the non-elect for whom God did not give His Son to be their Savior?
Do you believe in a schizophrenic God who command the non-elect to believe a lie, that Jesus Christ died to save them, to require those for whom He specifically revealed that He has bypassed and for whom He did not give His Son to be their Savior, yet to command them to believe the very opposite, that Jesus is their Saviour? Of course many liars would do such thing... but LET GOD BE TRUE and EVERY MAN I LIAR!
One has to choose the interpretation that is harmonious and consistent with the rest of Scriptures.
'All men everywhere' - is just that... because God's children (regenerated elect) are not just among the Jews, they are found in every nation scattered through the world. And the command to repent applies to all such... found among and in the crowd of those by-passed, which is why the preaching must be directed to all hearers... but the call APPLIES to God's children ONLY.
"the preaching must be directed to all hearers." I agree!
Weib
That's right, as many have lived and died in their sins who never heard of the Gospel or never came under the command to repent.
Paul directed his preaching to all his superstitious audience, Act17:22.....some mockedV32, but others who God had regenerated, believed. Yet the command was to all that heard.
Just like Mk 12:6 "And they went out and preached that men should repent".
Sing F Lau
Cattemull "the preaching must be directed to all hearers"
=====
How else could preaching be done publicly? It is a surprise Arminians/Calvinists would even misrepresent that those they slander as 'hyper-calvinists' as doing otherwise!
But that is very different from saying that the gospel APPLIES to every hearer!
Imagine, Commander in Chief, issued a directive in a live telecast... and the whole world may hear it... but NO ONE would think his message applies to every one who hears, or his message applies to any army of the other nations.
His message APPLIES to the US Armed Forces only, and NO ONE ELSE!
Distinction is the essence of sound theology - I was told.
Cattmule
"His message APPLIES to the US Armed Forces only, and NO ONE ELSE!"
Scintillating logic, but yet it falls short of being biblical.
Mk 12:6 "And they went out and preached that men should repent".
Every one who comes under the Gospel message ...is obligated to obey it, otherwise how could they be charged with disobeying it...having their everlasting destruction so clearly declared in scripture?
Scintillating logic, but yet it falls short of being biblical.
Mk 12:6 "And they went out and preached that men should repent".
Every one who comes under the Gospel message ...is obligated to obey it, otherwise how could they be charged with disobeying it...having their everlasting destruction so clearly declared in scripture?
Sing F Lau
If God obligates a man to believe a lie, then it would be right to obligate a non-elect, for whom Christ was not given as his redeemer, to believe in Christ as Saviour, then it would be logical and moral to charge him for disobeying. Other ...wise it is lawless and nonsensical.
Mark 12:6 DOES NOT deal with the issue. Men to whom the gospel applies SHOULD repent. To the rest, the gospel is IRRELEVANT. Period.
The gospel is INTENDED for God's children (regenerated elect) only... and they alone are commanded to believe, because to them the gospel is already true of them... the salvation proclaimed in the gospel has been APPLIED TO THEM. And refusing to believe will lead to great and severe temporal judgment. Look at the parables of the kingdom of heaven!
The condemnation of disobeying is NONSENSE to those whom the things commanded to be believed are not true of them!
The condemnation of disobeying APPLIES to those in whom the things commanded to be believed are true of them.
There are God's children, who for all sort of reasons, did not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ... e.g God's children among the Jews who were fearful of being ostracized from their Jewish community happened even in Jesus's time.
Trying going to charge a non-American soldier for disobedience for holding his middle finger up to the Commander in Chief's directive!
Has there ever been a man charged and condemned for not believing and obeying a lie in the American court?
Cattmule
Just when you think you've heard it all! lol
"When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: WHO SHA...LL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER"
So, who are those that "obey not the gospel" and will receive "everlasting destruction"in this verse? The "regenerate elect"?
Yes or no?
Sing F Lau
Don't get too excited yet! Read the whole verse sir.
There are those THAT KNOW GOD but obey not the gospel, other children of God are incapable of obeying the gospel, others have never even heard of Christ yet.
And there are those "THAT KNOW NOT GOD, and that obey not the gospel...
Read ALL that is there. Don't just read selectively. Read carefully what is actually said...
Ya, just when you think you have seen it all! How many read selectively... twist the Scriptures and come up all sort of weird ideas!
Cattmule
So, who are those that "obey not the gospel" and will receive "everlasting destruction"in this verse? The "regenerate elect"?
Sing F Lau
A proper question from the text ought to be, So, who are those "that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL"?
The question must be honest to, and informed, by the text. Your question, being not informed by the text, smell of rottenness it is perverse to even entertain the possibility of the regenerated elect ending up in everlasting destruction, or to expect me to believe that! The question are disgraceful and insulting, expecting me to believe nonsense!
The answer to the proper question is: all the non elect. These know not God AND obeyed not the gospel.
All the elect are regenerated. They are all God's children. All of them KNOW GOD...
" 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Some children are never have the ability to hear the gospel, so obeying the gospel is a NON-issue.
Some children never have the opportunity to hear the gospel, so being charged for 'obey not the gospel' does not arise either.
Those that have the opportunity to hear the gospel, they are CONVERTED to various degrees... some obeyed the gospel to great degree, others less, and still others obeyed not the gospel.
I give you the honor to have the last words. There is no profit to further this thread.
Cattmule
Sing, you are the one who plainly said,
"The condemnation of disobeying APPLIES to those in whom the things
commanded to be believed are true of them."
You said that Sir...You!
So my question was based on your own unbiblical assertion.
...If anything "smell of rottenness" it's your unwillingness to honestly admit that the ones who "obey not the Gospel...and will be punished with everlasting destruction " ARE UNREGENERATE.
It appears that plain scriptural declarations like 2 Thess 1;8,9 assult your carnal refusal to warn unbelievers to "Repent ye and believe the Gospel"
And so now it's, "There is no profit to further this thread."?
C'mon! You can do better than that!
Bottom line is you don't know who the elect are, so you are to call on "all men everywhere to repent"!
Kind Regards.
Sing F Lau
Cattemull @ Sing, you are the one who plainly said,
"The condemnation of disobeying APPLIES to those in whom the things commanded to be believed are true of them."
You said that Sir...You!
=========
Since you are confused, you deserve a reply. Of course I did say that. But it is your OBTUSENESS in refusing to understand what I actually said.
I said God's children who disobeyed the gospel will suffer severe judgment in this life.
BUT I did not say that God's children who disobeyed the gospel will suffer the EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION. You draw that perverse conclusion!
That's wholly your imagination. If it is not, tell me where I have said that. I have always said that when one cannot represent his opponent accurately, he should cease and hold his peace.
You said, "Bottom line is you don't know who the elect are, so you are to call on "all men everywhere to repent!"
But is that the issue? Have we not agreed that in the nature of the case, the public proclamation of the gospel is directed to all the hearers? How else can the gospel be publicly proclaimed?
The issue is, you insist that the gospel APPLIES to every hearer, including the non-elect, that they too are commanded to believe something not true of them. YOU INSIST THAT God requires them to believe a lie. You are free to believe that. I just disagree with you. Is that acceptable?
Oh yes, I do warn all my hearers to turn from their sins... but I also know that the messages APPLIES to the children of God ONLY.
Is that clear now?
Cattmule
Are you saying those that"obey not the Gospel" in 2 Thess1:8,9 are God's children?
A "Yes or No" would make it clear for me.
Sing F Lau Answer: Them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction are NOT - NOT - NOT God's children
Is that a yes or a no to your question?
Ok, let me state it plainer for you: those that obey not the gospel in 2 Thess1:8,9 are NOT God's children.
Ok, the answer to your question is a loud NO. I hope it is clear to you this time
Such DISOBEYED the gospel even though the gospel was never intended for them. Their hatred and rejection of such good news without just cause most certainly discloses their utter perversity and corruption, even though it was never intended for them, would most certainly greatly compound their guilt.
The phrase "them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" is a description of the people AMONG THOSE who will be punished with everlasting destruction, not necessarily the immediate or direct cause of their punishment.
Why? Because very many among those who shall be punished with everlasting destruction had never even heard the gospel, much less disobeyed the gospel.
"When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: WHO SHA...LL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER"
So, who are those that "obey not the gospel" and will receive "everlasting destruction"in this verse? The "regenerate elect"?
Yes or no?
Sing F Lau
Don't get too excited yet! Read the whole verse sir.
There are those THAT KNOW GOD but obey not the gospel, other children of God are incapable of obeying the gospel, others have never even heard of Christ yet.
And there are those "THAT KNOW NOT GOD, and that obey not the gospel...
Read ALL that is there. Don't just read selectively. Read carefully what is actually said...
Ya, just when you think you have seen it all! How many read selectively... twist the Scriptures and come up all sort of weird ideas!
Cattmule
So, who are those that "obey not the gospel" and will receive "everlasting destruction"in this verse? The "regenerate elect"?
Sing F Lau
A proper question from the text ought to be, So, who are those "that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL"?
The question must be honest to, and informed, by the text. Your question, being not informed by the text, smell of rottenness it is perverse to even entertain the possibility of the regenerated elect ending up in everlasting destruction, or to expect me to believe that! The question are disgraceful and insulting, expecting me to believe nonsense!
The answer to the proper question is: all the non elect. These know not God AND obeyed not the gospel.
All the elect are regenerated. They are all God's children. All of them KNOW GOD...
" 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Some children are never have the ability to hear the gospel, so obeying the gospel is a NON-issue.
Some children never have the opportunity to hear the gospel, so being charged for 'obey not the gospel' does not arise either.
Those that have the opportunity to hear the gospel, they are CONVERTED to various degrees... some obeyed the gospel to great degree, others less, and still others obeyed not the gospel.
I give you the honor to have the last words. There is no profit to further this thread.
Cattmule
Sing, you are the one who plainly said,
"The condemnation of disobeying APPLIES to those in whom the things
commanded to be believed are true of them."
You said that Sir...You!
So my question was based on your own unbiblical assertion.
...If anything "smell of rottenness" it's your unwillingness to honestly admit that the ones who "obey not the Gospel...and will be punished with everlasting destruction " ARE UNREGENERATE.
It appears that plain scriptural declarations like 2 Thess 1;8,9 assult your carnal refusal to warn unbelievers to "Repent ye and believe the Gospel"
And so now it's, "There is no profit to further this thread."?
C'mon! You can do better than that!
Bottom line is you don't know who the elect are, so you are to call on "all men everywhere to repent"!
Kind Regards.
Sing F Lau
Cattemull @ Sing, you are the one who plainly said,
"The condemnation of disobeying APPLIES to those in whom the things commanded to be believed are true of them."
You said that Sir...You!
=========
Since you are confused, you deserve a reply. Of course I did say that. But it is your OBTUSENESS in refusing to understand what I actually said.
I said God's children who disobeyed the gospel will suffer severe judgment in this life.
BUT I did not say that God's children who disobeyed the gospel will suffer the EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION. You draw that perverse conclusion!
That's wholly your imagination. If it is not, tell me where I have said that. I have always said that when one cannot represent his opponent accurately, he should cease and hold his peace.
You said, "Bottom line is you don't know who the elect are, so you are to call on "all men everywhere to repent!"
But is that the issue? Have we not agreed that in the nature of the case, the public proclamation of the gospel is directed to all the hearers? How else can the gospel be publicly proclaimed?
The issue is, you insist that the gospel APPLIES to every hearer, including the non-elect, that they too are commanded to believe something not true of them. YOU INSIST THAT God requires them to believe a lie. You are free to believe that. I just disagree with you. Is that acceptable?
Oh yes, I do warn all my hearers to turn from their sins... but I also know that the messages APPLIES to the children of God ONLY.
Is that clear now?
Cattmule
Are you saying those that"obey not the Gospel" in 2 Thess1:8,9 are God's children?
A "Yes or No" would make it clear for me.
Sing F Lau Answer: Them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction are NOT - NOT - NOT God's children
Is that a yes or a no to your question?
Ok, let me state it plainer for you: those that obey not the gospel in 2 Thess1:8,9 are NOT God's children.
Ok, the answer to your question is a loud NO. I hope it is clear to you this time
Such DISOBEYED the gospel even though the gospel was never intended for them. Their hatred and rejection of such good news without just cause most certainly discloses their utter perversity and corruption, even though it was never intended for them, would most certainly greatly compound their guilt.
The phrase "them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" is a description of the people AMONG THOSE who will be punished with everlasting destruction, not necessarily the immediate or direct cause of their punishment.
Why? Because very many among those who shall be punished with everlasting destruction had never even heard the gospel, much less disobeyed the gospel.
