Do avoid raving and ranting.A least a foot in your mouth would stop you foaming!
Taylo
Faith is the result of grace given, not the cause of grace taken.
Sing F Lau
God bestows eternal salvation, by grace, i.e. without any condition.
And that salvation produces faith... the faith that is the fruit of salvation bestowed CAN'T possibly be the instrument to secure that same salvation. An effect of a cause cannot possibly be the instrument to secure the same cause.
Taylo
Not the instrument, no. Salvation is by grace alone of course. But rather, the result, the fruit, of having that grace bestowed.
Ramirez
You also believe justification precedes faith right Sing? You also believe that the Gospel need not necessarily be preached to be saved correct?
Taylo
Check this article out Fernando...John Gill believed justification precedes faith as well.
http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index04.htm
I think a strong argument can be made for that, actually.
Ramirez
False premise Sing, which then you build a false dichotomy. Nice try. But were you not disfellowshipped from 7 Reformed Baptists churches for this unbiblical view? In response, you wrote a treatise " Seven Deformed Branches" attempting to defend your faulty views and trying to use the LBCF as your support.
Taylo
I would say this...faith is not the cause, not the instrument, but the result. But to say a person is saved and has no faith is to push this envelope way too far. By this logic, Richard Dawkins might be saved and he just doesn't know it. After all, this is exactly what God gives us as a result of His grace: faith.
Sing F Lau
Fernando, yes, I do because an unjustified man, therefore STILL under the condemnation of death cannot possibly believe. [God justifies the UNGODLY, those under the condemnation of death!]
But you believe man, an unjustified man, in his native state of condemnation, can and must believe in order to be justified by God. You also believe that a regenerated man (evidenced by his believing) is at the same time un-justified, i.e. under the condemnation of death. You believe your faith is the instrument to get justification before God.
Tell it loud and clear if I read you wrong.
YES, I also believe that the gospel is preached to the SAVED... those already justified freely, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt by the Spirit of God, who works faith in them, enabling them to believe... The gospel is preached because God's children need to hear the glorious truth of their salvation by God's free grace in Christ Jesus.
But you believe that those dead in trespasses and sins must believe in order to be saved. You believe that the gospel milk and meat is for the dead, to bring them to life.
The salvation by God's free grace that enables you to believe, and the salvation that comes by your believing the gospel CAN'T possibly be the same salvation.
When you can understand the above statement, come back and we will converse further. Otherwise, please hold your peace. I have wasted enough time with a great scholar like you!
Taylo
@Sing - Correct me if I am misunderstanding you...
In your view, is it possible for a person to never believe and have faith, yet still be saved?
Or are you simply saying that grace produces faith, making grace alone the instrument?
Ramirez
Yeah I've read up on it but I would have to disagree that it can be defended biblically. Although I like Gill, I do not always see eye to eye with him. Also, Gill's theology differs from that of Sing.
As far as justification preceding faith it would be difficult to square that with Rom. 8:30
Taylo
I don't think it would be Fernando (regarding Rom 8:30), considering justification is past tense and accomplished there...
What about this: regeneration (grace) produces justification to us in a temporal sense, as well as produces faith...
I'm thinking out loud here...haven't really dived into this issue much. :)
Sing F Lau
Hello Fernando, I will put the summary of the 7 deformed views held by the 7 reformed baptists churches in Malaysia. You pick a fight with me here, so don't blame sir.
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The 7 RB churches in Malaysia claimed their views as the 'Standard Reformed' views. They disfellowship me because I hold to non 'Standard Reformed' view. Let the reader judge for themselves:
Here they are, put side by side: taken from this page
http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/
======
A Summary of the Seven Theological Points Disputed
The ‘Reformed Baptist Fraternal’ boldly designated their views as the ‘Standard Reformed’ view. The following is a comparison of the ‘Standard Reformed’ view of the RBF and the view of one non-conformist Particular Baptist on the seven doctrinal issues raised by the RBF.
ONE:
‘Standard reformed’: Effectual calling unto eternal life is by the instrumental means of gospel preaching. Gospel preaching is the necessary means for God to bestow spiritual life to His elect.
Author: Effectual calling unto eternal life is by the immediate life-giving call of the Triune God. Gospel preaching is not a necessary means for God to bestow spiritual life to His elect.
TWO:
‘Standard reformed’: Repentance and faith secure eternal life. You repent and believe IN ORDER THAT you may receive eternal life.
Author: Repentance and faith evidence eternal life. You repent and believe BECAUSE God has effectually called you to eternal life.
THREE:
‘Standard reformed’: The gospel is ‘‘if… then." If you respond, then God will do something wonderful for you. You must believe in order that you may have eternal life from God.
Author: The gospel is “because… therefore.” Because God has done this wonderful thing to you, therefore you respond. God has bestowed you with eternal life, therefore you believe.
FOUR:
‘Standard reformed’: Gospel preaching is necessary because it is the instrumental means for the regeneration of the spiritually dead elect.
Author: Gospel preaching is necessary because it is the instrumental means for the conversion of the ignorant, uninformed regenerated elect.
FIVE:
‘Standard reformed’: Faith secures your justification before God. God justifies when you believe. By faith the condemned shall be justified and live.
Author: Faith evidences your justification by God’s free grace. God justified us when we were enemies. The justified ones shall live by faith.
SIX:
‘Standard reformed’: Irresistible grace is the powerful working of the Spirit in gospel preaching to bring the spiritually dead elect to conversion.
Author: Irresistible grace is the powerful working of the triune God to bring the spiritually dead elect to eternal life.
SEVEN:
‘Standard Reformed’: All the elect will be saved eternally because they will hear and believe the gospel; and God’s power keeps them in a life of faith and holiness, and thus all persevere in a life of faith and holiness to the end and shall be eternally saved.
Author: All the elect shall be saved eternally because God effectually calls them to eternal life; and God perseveres to preserve His elect in the state of grace, and they shall remain in that state of grace and be eternally saved.
Ramirez
Andrew they are all spoken of as past tense but there is a logical order and I think that is the point. Otherwise you would have to rearrange the order given in Rom 8.
Regeneration does result in justification but through faith.
Taylo
"Regeneration does result in justification but through faith."
OK...we agree. I think. :)
Taylo
I think the point is that regeneration, although it precedes faith, is the instrument that brings faith, which comes the instant a person is regenerated. That's my take anyways.
Taylo
And in this way, justification can be said to be 'by His blood' (Rom 5:9) as well as 'by grace' (Rom 3:24) as well as 'by faith.' (Rom 5:1)
Sing F Lau
@Taylor Thank you for asking. Many pontificate to teach, I ask question learn, and am glad when ask for my view.
You asked, "In your view, is it possible for a person to never believe and have faith, yet still be saved?"
I need to inquire,... what salvation are you inquiring about: salvation that is by the grace of God, or salvation that comes by hearing the gospel?
I repeat here: The salvation by God's free grace that enables you to believe, and the salvation that comes by your believing the gospel CAN'T possibly be the same salvation. So which salvation do you have in mind in your question.
There are God's children who never has the privilege to hear the gospel, others never had the opportunity to hear the gospel... they are as saved by God as those who do have the opportunity and privileges to hear the gospel. However, the lack of the gospel ministry deprive them much blessings for their temporal well-being here.
Eternal salvation is by God's free grace... when men are utterly incapable of hearing or believing... God saved them to the uttermost with ETERNAL salvation, fit for eternal glory. The gospel ministry will bring them great temporal salvation in their lives here and now.
Ramirez
No Sing, you picked a fight with with the whole body of Christ by distorting the Word of God. Men have pleaded with you to repent on your faulty views and return to orthodox Christianity. But you sir wish to remain as you are and teach such... folly. not only that you fly under the banner of the LBCF yet you redefine it as you do the Scriptures!
I know your game Sing. You use biblical terms but you have your own definition for each. One has to get you to define every term you use. Which is quite tiresome.
Second, unless you can justify your assertions with Scripture (exegetically) then it is otherwise "Scriptureless chatter" and as Luther also said "I have better things to attend"
Taylo
I think the problem I have with Sing's view (correct me if I am wrong Sing) is that it opens the door for someone to be regenerate, yet never come to faith.
Taylo
Or be regenerate and come to faith years later.
Ramirez
We do agree Andrew.
Taylo
I think the end result of this is the Billy Graham 'wider mercy' view, where you have people who are regenerate and never know it.
Ramirez
No Sing has Justification at the very beginning.
Sing F Lau
Taylor@
"Or are you simply saying that grace produces faith, making grace alone the instrument?"
Grace speaks of the manner God bestows eternal salvation to His elect people. He justified an elect FREELY by grace, He regenerate an elect FREEL...Y by grace, He adopts an elect FREELY by grace, He give the Spirit of adoption in His adopted freely by grace. The indwelling Spirit WORKS faith and others saving graces...
To me then, grace DOES NOT produce faith, neither is it an instrument.
That is what I will say. Thank you for asking.
Taylo
So what produces faith? Agree faith is not an instrument...
Taylo
My understanding is that regeneration results in the whole package deal...justification, faith, glorification, the whole thing.
Taylo
Sanctification as well.
Ramirez
However, election and predestination precede regeneration.
Taylo
Yes, of course...
Taylo
Election does not equal regeneration...it is a guarantee that a person will be regenerated temporally during their lifetime.
Ramirez
But you see some people have Justification before all this. I don't think John Gill even went that far.
Taylo
Which means they will also be justified, have faith, and be sanctified.
Ramirez
Perfectly stated Andrew!!
Davidson
"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We all with unveiled faces, are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory. This is from the Lord w...ho is the Spirit." Whome is also Love. Whome we could do NOTHING without. May we become the image through which Christ Jesus represents; the image of God. Jesus was, is, and always will be and we, as believers in the Message, are becoming, from glory to glory; living by faith; saved ONLY by grace. Praise God!
Ramirez
Andrew, here is a great article on justification:http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/just.htm
Ramirez
Here is another from Louis Berkhof's refutation of eternal justification:
http://www.the-highway.com/eternal-justification_Berkhof.html
Sing F Lau
Taylor@ Or be regenerate and come to faith years later.
=====
Wasn't that the case with Abraham?
Wasn't that the case with Cornelius?
Wasn't that the case with the many devout Jews who trod from many other nations to Jerusalem to worship the God promised them the Messiah, and who were converted on the day of Pentecost.
All there regeneration preceded their conversion with considerable time gap.
What are the years between God effectually calling Abraham in Ur and his conversion in Gen 15:1-6?
Sing F Lau
Taylo @So what produces faith? Agree faith is not an instrument...
=====
Faith is one of the saving graces worked in a child of God by the indwelling Spirit.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goo...dness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Sing F Lau
Taylo @My understanding is that regeneration results in the whole package deal...justification, faith, glorification, the whole thing.
======
I love those popular word "whole package deal"!
Any way, brother, consider this please, concerning justification. The Scriptures teach several DISTINCT aspect of justification. Understand this, and it will deliver you from much confusion.
- There is DECRETAL justification in God's purpose.
- There is LEGAL justification at the cross.
- There is VITAL/PERSONAL justification by God's free grace at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death. What is LEGAL is now applied to each individual elect, by God's free and sovereign grace, thus make the legal justification PERSONAL. This part is ENTIRELY missing in new school calvinism.
- There is EXPERIENTIAL justification when God's children is brought to faith in Christ. This is the justification spoken of in Gen 15:1-6. But new school calvinists mistake and confuse this with the VITAL/PERSONAL justification by God's free grace.
- Then there is the FINAL justification when publicly vindicated before all the goats and angels on the great judgment day.
These are five and distinct aspects of justification taught in the Scriptures. They are like the five fingers of a well formed hand.
But the deformed theology so prevalent today is like a monstrous ONE-fingered hand... the ring-finger of experiential justification by faith as the sum total doctrine of justification.
Take a look here: A One-Fingered Hand is a Monstrous Deformity: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/08/one-fingered-hand-is-monstrous.html
May the Lord grant you understanding.
Sing F Lau
Ramirez @No Sing has Justification at the very beginning.
=======
Here is one elect in his native state of condemnation and death,
What is the first thing God does when He applies redemption to him personally?
Does God first remove the condemnation of death first, i.e justifying him; or does Spirit first regenerate him?
Does the Holy Spirit have any warrant to regenerate an elect still under the condemnation of death?
Or the justification of life must LOGICALLY precede the giving of life? Can there be giving of eternal life (regeneration) before the personal application of Christ's righteousness to that elect (justification)?
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Ramirez
Sing, Scripture,Scripture,Scripture! I need something to of Divine authority to interact with. You make all these assertions which are just biblically wrong! You expect me to accept your claims and go from there. No sir I reject your assertions and your logic; the burden of proof is on you to validate your claims from Scripture, since it is you that has departed from Scripture ad historic orthodox Christianity!
[sing: God justifies the UNGODLY.... but reformed folks like you that insist God justifies the believing! Faith justifies the believing, that is evidential justification before one's own conscience. Rom 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus..." - but reformed folks like you insist that justification before God is by your faith! What is the use of more Scriptures if your mind is already so confused - confusing forensic justification of the condemned by God's free grace, and the evidential justification of God's children by their believing act?]
Sing F Lau
Taylor@ just one more note:
Effectual calling is God calling an elect out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. This is what the theologian termed as Definitive sanctification.
To call a man out of the ...state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation would requires these, in this number and LOGICAL [sic] order:
- justification of life by God's free grace (removal of the condemnation, righteousness applies personally)
- regeneration (eternal life bestowed, removal of spiritual death)
- adoption into God's family (removal of alienation).
- Bestowal of the Spirit of adoption to dwell within a child of God. (This elect is now as fit for heaven and eternal glory as many.)
Nothing else is need for his eternal salvation. BUT much things are needed for his well-being as a child of God here on earth. That's where the ministry of the gospel is crucial for the well-being of God's children.
All these are by the free grace of God... without the elect meeting any condition, for he simply can't meet any.
THEN and ONLY THEN, a man is capable of believing!
Faith cometh by hearing...
And in believing, his faith justifies him as one whom God has justified freely by His grace, regenerated freely by His grace, adopted freely by His grace, and indwelt by the Spirit of God.
There is a justification by God's free grace, PRIOR to any ability to believe. God justifies the ungodly, a condemned sinner.
And there is a justification by the believing act of a child of God. Believing justifies a child of God.
The former is forensic.
The latter is evidential.
Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
May the Lord give you understanding.
Sing F Lau
Taylo @And in this way, justification can be said to be 'by His blood' (Rom 5:9) as well as 'by grace' (Rom 3:24) as well as 'by faith.' (Rom 5:1)
=======
They are three DISTINCT aspect of Justification, stated very clearly by the old school... baptist. It the new school baptist who, in their pride and ignorance, lumped them all together and make a big mess of the truth.
The three aspects stated by you are these:
- There is LEGAL justification at the cross. Double imputation took place at the cross.
- There is VITAL/PERSONAL justification by God's free grace at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death. What is LEGAL is now applied to each individual elect, by God's free and sovereign grace, thus make the legal justification PERSONAL. This part is ENTIRELY missing in new school calvinism.
- There is EXPERIENTIAL justification when God's children is brought to faith in Christ. This is the justification spoken of in Gen 15:1-6. But new school calvinists mistake and confuse this with the VITAL/PERSONAL justification by God's free grace. [This is probably the only part the new school baptists still teach, but they confuse this with the forensic justification by free grace!]
May the Lord grant you understanding.
Ramirez
Sing, you quoted a verse, so what part of it are you having are hard time understanding?
[Hard time understanding? It is the reformed folks like you who make a BIG MESS of this passage... with an interpretation that Abraham before the experience in Gen 15:1-6 was not a justified man, and therefore was necessarily still a man under the condemnation of death!]
Ramirez
I read your "Pruning" book and I think that those calling for your repentance answered you brilliantly. Furthermore, there was an utter lack of exegesis, just simply citing verses out of context.
Kind of reminded me of Socinius whom was always questioning essential doctrines and attempting to use his logic to understand the Living God!
[sing: read Noel's pathetic and confused and arrogant critique here, and my response here.]
Sing & Noel - taken in June 91 in LondonSing F Lau
State what I have said that you consider is erroneous and show that it is wrong, and state the truth in its place.
Not helpful at all just rave and foam like that! We can go through one by one the 7 deformed points that I have posted above. Why don't you take them up one by one if they are indeed erroneous. Otherwise save all your raving and foaming... it does not help in the discussion.
