Object,
light, and shadow - how are they related? |
Look at the various comments that followed that culminated in a Calvinist theologian revered by many RBs pontificated this magisterial declaration - "You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerate or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
Trevo
Sing F Lau: There are no saved people out there that lack faith.
There is no chronological gap between regeneration and the new birth, only a logical priority of regeneration causing faith and not vice versa.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, how can there be chronological gap between regeneration and the new birth when BOTH refer to the same event??? I think you are quite woolly.
There are saved people out there, i.e. saved by God... they are God's children, and such need to be brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The gospel ministry was ordained for them!
Cornelius was a SAVED man (saved by God) LONG before he was brought to faith by the gospel preaching of Apostle Peter.
Please speak what the Bible teaches, and not your pet opinions.
Thanks!
Trevo
I am, indeed, quite woolly. I have a hairy beard.
Many calvinists err in mistaking a logical order for a chronological order.
Regeneration precedes faith logically, but there is no chronological gap in time. i.e., there are no regenerate-yet-lacking-faith people out there walking around, i.e., there are not people out there who have been born again and yet do not possess saving faith because faith is the instrument of union with Christ such that we are justified by faith... No one who lacks faith has any right to claim the new birth as their own.
Again, we are to think of faith/repentance and the new birth as happening all together as a "packet" and not try to separate these things into a chronological procession of events. Again, God is the one who moves the wheel, and God moves all the spokes of that wheel simultaneously.
Sing, can you understand this definition? It is nuanced. I can try to explain in even simpler English if you need me to.
Sing F Lau
Hi Trevor, please tell me when was Abraham regenerated, and when was he justified by faith?
And when do you think Cornelius was regenerated? And when was he justified by his faith?
Now, common sense tells us that regeneration precedes faith ...BOTH LOGICALLY and CHRONOLOGICALLY.
Here is common sense. EVEN if a man is regenerated just prior to hearing the gospel, it STILL takes time for him to hear and understand and believe the gospel.
Abraham was regenerated by God before he left the Ur of the Chaldean. When was he justified by his faith? Do you know the years between his regeneration and his justification by faith (conversion)?
Cornelius was already regenerated LONG before Peter brought the gospel to him that enabled him to believe! Do you know the length of time between his regeneration and his conversion through faith?
Perhaps you clear your mind a bit first before trying to explain the matter further.
Trevo
Here is the Westminster Confession of Faith,
Chapter XIV Of Saving Faith
I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,[1] is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,[2] and is ordinaril...y wrought by the ministry of the Word,[3] by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.[4]
II. By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein;[5] and acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,[6] trembling at the threatenings,[7] and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.[8] But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.[9]
III. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong;[10] may often and many ways assailed, and weakened, but gets the victory:[11] growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance, through Christ,[12] who is both the author and finisher of our faith.[13]
Notice that true Christianity does not separate regeneration or salvation from the instrumentality of the Word of God and through faith.
'Ye are clean through the word I have spoken to you, John 15:3
Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures.—James 1:18.
"...we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." (1 Thess 1:4, 5)
About Cornelius: Acts 11:14, is critical: "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved". It appears that Cornelius was saved after his encounter with Peter; even though he did many good things beforehand, he was not regenerate at that point.
Final note: Sing, you need to refrain from personal attacks against me so that we can move the discussion forward without pettiness.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, tell us all the things that PRECEDE before faith is possible. Do you know why saving faith is in Chapter 14? What preceded chapter 14?
Effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation... which necessarily requires JUSTIFICATION, REGENERATION, ADOPTION, and the Spirit of adoption given to dwell in the heart of a child of God... working faith and ALL other saving graces.
THUS ONLY a man ALREADY SAVED by God, through His free and sovereign grace, is able to believe and in believing the gospel truth, he is saved from lies and errors, he embraces the truth!
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
I just wrote on my wall these words:
"1Cor 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in... vain."
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The Corinthian believers were saved by their reception of the gospel brought to them by Apostle Paul.
What did their believing the gospel save them from?
Please remember that ONLY THEM THAT ARE SAVED by God's free grace are able to believe the gospel. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
The SAVED (by God's free grace) are to be saved by their believing THE gospel.
What did God save you from?
And what does your believing save you from?
Blessed are you if you know the answers to these questions!
A man who cannot differentiate between the salvation by God's free and sovereign grace, and the salvation that is conditioned his own actions, has NOT begun to rightly divide the word of truth!
Trevo
Sing, you are confusing election with salvation and maybe justification.
God, from all eternity ordained to justify His elect.
God did not, however, justify them from all eternity, their justification and eventual salvation happening in time.
Through effectual calling God calls His Elect ones and only His Sheep will hear his voice, but salvation does not occur until God unites His Elect to Himself through the agency of faith. Before that they are still "children of wrath, even as others" per Ephesians.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, please define for me what is effectual calling.
I have not mentioned anything yet about election... so please don't introduce it.
I really wonder who is confused!
...
Let's return to the initial issue.
You said this: "Regeneration precedes faith logically, but there is no chronological gap in time."
Is this true of Abraham? And is this true of Cornelius?
Of Cornelius, you said, "About Cornelius: Acts 11:14, is critical: "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."
So what? Were his regeneration and faith (believing the gospel message preached by Peter) simultaneous?
Please tell, '... whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved " - SHALL BE SAVED FROM WHAT?
Please keep to the points...
Trevo
Effectual Calling:
From the Westminster Confession, chapter 10:
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of ...sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]
About Abraham and Cornelius: They were God's elect and therefore predestined from all eternity for salvation. However, the same God who ordains the ends also ordains the means. God, through providence led them into knowledge of himself during their lives. At some point they were regenerated (born again) by the Spirit of God. This new birth does not happen apart from the Word of God, however, and God uses the instrumentality of the Word to bring His Elect to Himself.
Also of note is that faith is called a "grace whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls"in the Westminster. Therefore, faith and the new birth ought never to be separated chronologically, though we may rightly say that God's initiative is what saves and not man's (therefore regeneration possesses a logical priority over faith, even though there is no chronological gap of time and we do not see regenerate but faithless people existing).
Sing F Lau
Thanks. You quote well enough.
Now please give us some explanation.
"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state ...of ...sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ."
Now please tell us what DIVINE ACTS are involved in the effectual calling of those predestinated OUT of his state of sin and death, in which he is by nature, to that of grace and salvation by Jesus Christ.
Please let us be focused.
What acts of God are necessary to bring an elect OUT of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation? If you don't understand the scope and intent of this specific inquiry, please let me know so that I may elaborate.
Concerning Abraham, please tell us whether he was a justified and regenerated man before Gen 15:1-6? Put it another way, was Abraham still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and UN-regenerated before the event recorded in Gen 15:1-6? This is a specific question. So, please deal with this specific question.
Concerning Cornelius, was Cornelius a justified and regenerated man before Peter preached the gospel to him? Put it another way, was Cornelius still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and UN-regenerated (i.e. still dead in trespasses and sin) before Peter was sent to bring the good news to him? This too is a specific question. So, please deal with this specific question.
Thank you. Please proceed to lead me to the truth as you see it.
Trevo
There is nothing wrong with quoting. The Westminster Confession and the 1689 are hedges against error with regard to soteriology.
I will reread Genesis 15. what do you think?
Regarding Cornelius I have already quoted Acts 14 which indicates ...that prior to Peter's trip and the reception of the Word, Cornelius was not saved.
What church in Singapore are you a part of? I can suggest a few solid churches that can help guide you in these matters.
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "Regarding Cornelius I have already quoted Acts 14 which indicates ...that prior to Peter's trip and the reception of the Word, Cornelius was not saved."
I did not ask whether Cornelius was saved? Look at my question again please. "...Concerning Cornelius, was Cornelius a justified and regenerated man before Peter preached the gospel to him? Put it another way, was Cornelius still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and UN-regenerated (i.e. still dead in trespasses and sin) before Peter was sent to bring the good news to him? This too is a specific question. So, please deal with this specific question."
When you say 'Cornelius was not saved' I understand you to mean that Cornelius was still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and dead in trespasses and sins? If not, what do you mean by "Cornelius was not saved"?
Please tell us.
Trevo
What is your definition of saved?
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ "Also of note is that faith is called a "grace whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls"in the Westminster. "
Please tell us,
What did God save His elect from?
And what does believing save God's children from? (I supposed only God's children are able to believe)
Trevo
Where are you going with these questions rather than mere rhetoric?
Sing F Lau
Trevor, please tell us:
What did God save you from?
And what did your believing the gospel - the truth of what God has done through His Jesus Christ to save His people - save you from?
These are no rhetoric but means to rightly divide the word... of truth. If you can't distinguish the two, you have not even begin to rightly interpret the Scriptures on this subject.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
ONLY them that ARE SAVED by God is able to believe the gospel! And believing the gospel will save them.
How did God save, and save from what?
How does believing the gospel save, and save from what?
You are doing a Doctorate in Mission, you should be able to answer ELEMENTARY questions like these... they are no mere rhetoric!
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology!
Trevo
Sing, you are a rude man and need to learn some manners first of all.
I have adequately engaged you.
We are saved from the power and penalty of sin and the kingdom of darkness. We were children of wrath even as others until God brought us to faith and repentance. Now, all who believe are justified and are being sanctified and prepared for heaven.
I hold to the soteriology of the 1689 Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession on these issues. You would do well to read those documents:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
There is no salvation apart from faith. God uses means such as the instrumentality of the Word of God and of salvation through faith. Do not fall into the Hardshell Baptist or hyper-calvinistic trap of separating God's ordained ends from God's ordained means to accomplishing those ends.
Now, if you respond respectfully I will continue to engage you. If you continue to treat me rudely, I will cut off conversation and assume that your fruits show what manner of man that you really are.
Elmer, sorry if all of this has side-tracked your quote.
Wiebe
someone had to be straight up with you, Sing and it looks like it was Trevor. Trevor, no apologies needed. my posts tend to take on a life of their own. As much as some of this stuff is based on rabbit trails, it is interesting to see what topics are presented that need to brought to forefront for all of our spiritual maturity.
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ I hold to the soteriology of the 1689 Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession on these issues. You would do well to read those documents:
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If this will help you to know where I am coming from, know that I have studied those documents for near two decades... and written much on them too... but that doesn't necessarily mean that what I say I right, granted.
One thing I am almost certain is that the modern Calvinists have departed FAR FROM those who framed those documents.
I have been trying to point these things out to you, but they don't seem to register with you.
Let m try it again,
This is what the old school baptists said this:
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified." (In the circular letter issued by Philadelphia Baptist Association on October 4th, 1785.)
The modern calvinistic baptists, including you, declares thus:
The reason why any are justified is because they have faith... i.e. their faith PRECEDES their justification by God.
Are they saying the same things, or are they saying VASTLY different things? If the latter, who is right and who is in GRAVE DAMNING ERROR?
So, stick to the point.
There is no need to get personal. I tend to think that westerners in Asian countries are OFTEN (not always!) very PATRONIZING to others even though they are often oblivious to their sin!
Sing F Lau
Trevor, so is the salvation with which God saved you, and the salvation which your believing in the gospel secures (the good news of what God has done to save you) the one and the same salvation, or are they quite distinct in their NATURE? ...Or are they just different aspect of the one same salvation, or something else?
The discussion would be more profitable if we would just stick to the issue being raised?
Sing F Lau
Trevor, you mentioned about the Hardshell Baptists. I heard about them, and I have a copy of their Confession of faith, which is an exact copy of the 1689 BCoF.
Now, this is the strange and bizarre observation. They, and their forefathers w...ere adherent of the 1689 continuously. There was a great division among the particular baptists in the USA... one group EVENTUALLY became Arminians, while the other remained rooted in the 1689, even until today. Some from the group that eventually became Arminians came to their sense and remembered the root of their forebear... and attempted to return to their 1689 root... and the Reformed Baptist group emerged in the 1960's. There were others baptists who hold to the doctrines of grace to various degree.
This is very sketchy... to show that two groups claim to hold to the 1689, but they believe quite different things.
And the statement from the PBA I quoted above is just an obvious example. What has gone wrong?
I have one suggestion. The Baptists who had back slidden into Arminianism and attempted to return to the faith of their fathers can be seen like this: they departed 100 miles from their fathers, but returned 50 miles, and they think they have come to where their father stood.
Please note; I am not Hardshell. And I am not a Calvinist.
Trevo
Sing:
Much wiser men than I have already pleaded with you concerning your errors.
About your statement concerning White, Anglos being patronizing in Asia:
...
Noel Espinosa is far from a white anglo and he write thusly about you, mirrorring my arguments now:
"...it is with sadness that I was to learn of your deviation from the faith. What compounds the matter is the way you have been defending your case through the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. I am sorry to say, brother, that your employment of that Confession is totally wrong and unjustified."
The truth about faith and justification:
Faith is not the reason or ultimate grounds for the Elect’s justification. We are not saved because of our faith or on the grounds of their faith, as if we can produce a certain sufficient measure of this substance from within ourselves which God would then honor and allow us into heaven. This would be to make faith a meritorious act and our work of producing enough faith of sufficient quality to be a work of righteousness able to commend us before God. This would be yet another form of works-righteousness.
However, though we are not saved because of our faith, faith is the instrument through which God’s Elect are united to Christ. The expressions are thus—dia pisteos, ek pisteos, and pistei (dative).Dia pisteos can be translated as “by means of” or “through” faith.
Faith is the instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a person to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man; the man must believe.
Ek pisteos (“from,” “out of” or “by faith”) describes faith as that which logically precedes a person’s justification. It “describes faith as the occasion of justification, though never as the efficient or ultimate cause of justification.
The dative use of the noun pistis is used in an instrumental sense (cf. Rom. 3:28). Faith is not an agent (i.e. an efficient cause), but it is an instrument (i.e. a means) of justification.
You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerated or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith.
Sing F Lau
Trevor declares @"You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerated or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
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I have accepted your 'friend request.'
I will continue... this discussion on my wall.
Welcome. Come and teach us...
Continue here https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/151373898209910